Topic: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update  (Read 23177 times)

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Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« on: February 14, 2011, 02:57:40 pm »
http://kourindou.exblog.jp/14218252/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/0003-89-10/tohou-project-creator-restricts-commercial-works-anime

Quote from: Anime News Network
"Team Shanghai Alice," the creator of the Touhou Project dōjin (self-published) game series, posted revised 2011 guidelines for the use of copyrighted Touhou Project materials on Monday. The creator asked those who wish to make commercial goods based on Touhou Project to request permission.

He asked that the applicants exercise "discretion" in regards to commercial goods with sexual connotations (such as dakimakura or hugging pillows with sexual connotations). He later clarified that the guideline on sexual content applied only to commercial goods, and said that he does not think that the existing noncommercial dōjin contents have been problematic so far.

He then specifically restricted the development of commercial anime projects. He added that the new restriction applies to "cel animation"; the restriction did not apply to works created with 3D software or to illustrations and special effects.

The creator also placed restrictions on the sale of works — both dōjin and commercial — on the XBox Live Indie Games marketplace for the XBox 360 console, Apple's App Store for the iPhone and other iOS devices, and Android Market for phones and other devices. Another restriction applies to sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works. Finally he restricted "overly sexual depictions and defamation against certain individuals, groups, or races that are determined to go against common decency."

The anime studio ufotable announced last September that it was producing an anime project with the ANIMATE store chain's mascot character and the Touhou Project game characters. At the time, the Touhou Project creator said that he was not involved and that he did not know the details about it. Dōjin circles had previously sold anime with Touhou Project characters at the Comic Market (Comiket) convention.

"Don't be a racist, stop making so much money off my stuff when I don't like it, and cut down on the sex, please." - ZUN

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2011, 03:00:20 pm »
So...

...does this mean the Maikaze anime project is screwed?
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 03:03:21 pm »
All it really means is ZUN wants people to ask permission to use Touhou characters in their works, for the most part, with some greater restrictions on sexual content or defamatory material.

Can't say that's unreasonable.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 03:54:24 pm »
Well, it's not a bad thing to see ZUN laying out some rules. It's his creation after all, he deserves to keep it within certain limits.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 04:43:49 pm »
It's not like he's doing anything harsh and saying "YOU CANT MAKE ANYTHING RELATED TO TOUHOU WITHOUT MY PERMISSION." It's just he doesnt want people selling things touhou related, which people shouldn't be doing in the first damned place.
And no, I think the MAIKAZE project is still going to go on, ZUN's only problem with it was that he didnt want fans to think it was official, no?

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 05:26:44 pm »
The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 05:52:58 pm »
The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?
Seems like it, unless you wanna release it online which is stupid imo. Either way, They'll just get uploaded somewhere for anyone else to download for free.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 05:54:24 pm »
Seems like it, unless you wanna release it online which is stupid imo. Either way, They'll just get uploaded somewhere for anyone else to download for free.
So I'm not allowed to recoup my costs (we're not even talking commercial, just doujin/indy stuff), and I have to deal with rampant piracy because I literally can't sell my game anywhere except at 2 swapmeets?


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 05:56:50 pm »
The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?

I think the article phrases it wrong.

The way I understand it, you just can't only sell a product digitally - you need to offer a physical copy as well.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 06:07:18 pm »
So I'm not allowed to recoup my costs (we're not even talking commercial, just doujin/indy stuff), and I have to deal with rampant piracy because I literally can't sell my game anywhere except at 2 swapmeets?

You're still allowed to sell your stuff at doujin shops.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 07:25:10 pm »
As I understand it, you can still buy the games from the net, as in, ordering a physical copy of it, but can't sell it in places likes that Xbox thing or Steam. At least I thought that's what "digital distribution" means.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2011, 07:37:35 pm »
I'm guessing the distinction we're drawing here is between digital distribution (buying stuff online) and digital download (Steam, etc).

Any Japanese readers here?


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 07:38:40 pm »
I don't think it's the "more than me" ZUN's concerned about - I think he's worried about Touhou getting overcommercialized in general, and pay-to-download would make things a little too easy for him to be comfortable with... I guess?

I'm a little sad, though, I always liked how much free reign the fandom has been given...
There was something here once. Wonder what...

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 07:42:01 pm »
The fandom still does have a tremendous amount of free reign, comparatively. What he's asking for here is far below the standard demands a game-maker would make, and none of it really impedes the doujin community.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 07:48:12 pm »
TSO, if you're trying to make money off a touhou game then you're missing the point. He doesn't want fanworks to be motivated by profit.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 08:21:38 pm »
I think the article phrases it wrong.

The way I understand it, you just can't only sell a product digitally - you need to offer a physical copy as well.
Why?  Why do I have to waste the time and money to provide a physical copy?  I'm not a AAA vendor I'm just trying to get my game out into the public nameshare.

You're still allowed to sell your stuff at doujin shops.
Oh how convenient, I can only sell my stuff at Comiket and Reitaisai (events over in Japanland of course), or in doujin shops like himeya/etc I have to beg to carry my product physically.  The "traditional doujin" distribution system is a joke, period.  Outside of being in Japan your game will go nowhere, and even in Japan your game will end up on Share/PD in minutes and noone will buy it outside of collectors.  Look how big Recettear got just by being on Steam.

TSO, if you're trying to make money off a touhou game then you're missing the point. He doesn't want fanworks to be motivated by profit.
Noone said anything about being motivated for profit.  Some people just want to have the fruits of their labor be worth something, or even just cover their costs and break even.  And note he lumped both commercial and doujin in the same category, so I get the feeling he wasn't thinking about profit when he wrote that.

I'll be honest, the vibe I get is he wanted to add an artificial barrier to distribution in order to limit the potential number of sales doujin groups could generate.  By forcing doujin groups to resort to physical distribution only, he's forcing a huge cost and barrier to entry.  Not only that, on a lot of the platforms he forbade, there ARE no physical distribution options, digital is the only way.  I can't reasonably make a 360 game and get it pressed.  I can't make a physical copy of an IOS or Android game.

Stuff like Steam and Impulse and other digital distribution platforms are amazing for indy developers, as they no longer have to worry about distribution and marketting costs, it's all just part of the system.  It lowers the barrier to entry immensely, and gets their game out to a much wider audience.  His restrictions scream "I don't want you to be successful".
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 08:23:41 pm by ♪ Tesoro Corporation ♫ »


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 08:24:12 pm »
Well, sorry TSO but I guess you cant sell it just yet. Are you sure theres no way you can make it in a physical form, even if its just some coupon or whatever?

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 08:26:51 pm »
Why?  Why do I have to waste the time and money to provide a physical copy?  I'm not a AAA vendor I'm just trying to get my game out into the public nameshare.

Uh, not being a "AAA vendor" doesn't prevent countless tiny doujin circles from producing physical material.

I have no idea why you're so up in arms about this, it's not even remotely a big deal.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 08:34:55 pm »
The whole point of digital distribution is to empower the developer to be able to distribute without the hassle of going around and appeasing retailers and the traditional publishing chain.  The whole idea of doujin/indy work is to embrace the developer peddling their wares without having to go through any of that shit.  Doesn't digital distribution kind of, I dunno, embody that spirit and empower the devs even moreso?

Digital distribution is one of the single best things to happen to indy developers.  It means they don't have to worry about the expenses of pressing their own discs or maintaining a website and bandwidth costs.  It means they don't have to waste a bunch of time wooing doujin shops or advertising their game.  And yet Lord ZUN has declared this against his wishes.

Uh, not being a "AAA vendor" doesn't prevent countless tiny doujin circles from producing physical material.
It doesn't prevent them, but it also means they'll never see more than a pittance from their efforts.  I'm up in arms because it essentially screams to me that kind of hipster attitude "you have to remain underground, you can't make it big!".  Not only that, digital distribution is the way of the future  and in some cases, the ONLY option for distributing on certain platforms.  It's fine and admirable in a lot of ways he's trying to essentially retain creative control of his creation, but at the same time it just feels like only he's allowed to get successful, noone else.

In the end it doesn't matter, he's shown to be absolutely inept and pathetic at enforcing these restrictions anyways.  I'd like to see him try to stop someone from making an IOS/Android Touhou game.  I respect the guy for what he's done but at some point you gotta say he's just being a stick in the mud for no legitimate reason.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 08:43:42 pm »
In terms of 'please stop making money out of porn of my characters', I think ZUN's entitled to crack down on that a little. Likewise for people making an anime with his characters with the intent of making money - note that he specifies commercial anime products.

What I DON'T get, though, is the clamping down on releases through things like Xbox Live. What would something like that do other than make the series more popular and well known? Wouldn't a legitimate, easy-to-reach method of purchasing the games bring around a significant reduction in piracy? I can't understand it, and it seems honestly like he's trying to stop Touhou getting any bigger than it already is.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2011, 08:51:53 pm »
In terms of 'please stop making money out of porn of my characters', I think ZUN's entitled to crack down on that a little. Likewise for people making an anime with his characters with the intent of making money - note that he specifies commercial anime products.

What I DON'T get, though, is the clamping down on releases through things like Xbox Live. What would something like that do other than make the series more popular and well known? Wouldn't a legitimate, easy-to-reach method of purchasing the games bring around a significant reduction in piracy? I can't understand it, and it seems honestly like he's trying to stop Touhou getting any bigger than it already is.
His restriction isn't on his games though.  We know he'll never distribute digitally, he's made that very clear.  What he is doing is restricting doujin groups who do want to leverage such technology.  It's one thing to restrict commercial works, but isn't the spirit of doujin to be self-published?  Why block a tool that gives all the keys to the doujin writers and not the publishers?  Doesn't that completely embody what he's trying to do with his own work, retain creative and publishing control over his work?

The ONLY reason I can think of for why he wants to restrict doujin to "traditional" channels is because he wants to add a barrier of entry to doujin works.  He's arguably the most successful doujin game developer in the world.  Yes Notch has made hand over fist worth of money but in pure mindshare Touhou wins.  Yet he doesn't want others to get as successful as he has.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 08:54:25 pm by ♪ Tesoro Corporation ♫ »


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2011, 08:55:16 pm »
His restriction isn't on his games though.  We know he'll never distribute digitally, he's made that very clear.  What he is doing is restricting doujin groups who do want to leverage such technology.  It's one thing to restrict commercial works, but isn't the spirit of doujin to be self-published?  Why block a tool that gives all the keys to the doujin writers and not the publishers?  Doesn't that completely embody what he's trying to do with his own work, retain creative and publishing control over his work?

Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2011, 09:02:52 pm »
Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
It's not so much a sovereign right as he's prohibiting it for no real reason. If there was a decent explanation for why he's banning other people from producing fanworks and digitally selling them there wouldn't be an issue, but what hassle does this cause other than reducing the popularity of events such as Comiket and Reitaisai - which, given the digital age, could easily be argued as outdated?

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 09:07:08 pm »
Comiket and Reitaisai aren't going anywhere, period.  It's less about the games and more about the "accessories" like comics and costumes and figures and stuff of course, but it's not going to suddenly disappear because Steam exists.

Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
If it was about the money, why block distribution on Android Market and IOS App Store and XBLIG?   Hell you can distribute for free on Android/IOS/XBLIG (unknown about Steam, but I assume it'd be ok).  Why is it ok for me to sell the game for 20-30 bucks at Comiket but not 5 bucks on Steam?   He could have just stipulated you can't make money beyond covering costs of distribution and I would have agreed with him.

He made a point to mention both commercial and doujin works separately, so clearly it wasn't about the money.  It's either he doesn't like the platforms and thus doesn't want his precious games to show up on the 360 or iPhone (then why make a distinction about digital distributors that "mainly target foreigners"), or he doesn't want people to get as successful as he's gotten.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 09:09:09 pm by ♪ Tesoro Corporation ♫ »


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 09:09:11 pm »
Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
I think TSO's point is that, even though yes, that is up to him, the restriction against digital distribution is not really understandable. That he does not want people to just make money off his works without permission is understandable. Not wanting certain problematic material associated with his work is also more than understandable.
Not wanting doujin creators to sell their stuff digitally? Why would he be against that in general?  :/

Edit: Basically what Rou said.

Edit2: Now my posts seems totally pointless...
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2011, 09:15:56 pm »
Speaking as someone who's only hope of getting anything out is digital distribution, I gotta say that's a pain.  Especially for anyone not living in Japan.  I'm certain ZUN wasn't thinking outside that circle of course.  Still even in Japan limiting releases to events with limited space and limited attendees is really only going to hurt your work.

Oh well.  It's a good thing I'm not charging for anything.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2011, 09:17:03 pm »
I'm pretty sure he thinks that if something is released in a physical form, it'd somehow stop piracy or something?

Yeah, I dont know. Maybe ZUN had a couple Jack Daniels?

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2011, 09:21:41 pm »
Yeah, I dont know. Maybe ZUN had a couple Jack Daniels?
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2011, 09:25:12 pm »
I'm pretty sure he thinks that if something is released in a physical form, it'd somehow stop piracy or something?
Umm, if anything the physical format requirement encourages piracy.  There's literally no legitimate way to get a lot of these doujin games except through pirated releases on Share/PD.  Not everyone has the resources to make it to Comiket/Reitaisai and a good majority of these games will never show up in any of the doujin importer services.  Literally the only time you'll ever see them is at the Comiket or Reitaisai they're released at.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2011, 09:50:49 pm »
Again, these are his creations we're talking about. He can set the terms and call the shots when it comes to using them. It doesn't matter if it's because of the money or he doesn't like the format or he had gas that morning. The doujin community is not entitled to use his work in a manner he doesn't like. And he's not laying down some serious unreasonable stuff here.

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