Author Topic: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)  (Read 4191 times)

1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« on: January 29, 2011, 07:26:02 AM »
I searched around for general "how to improve"/"how do you practice" threads, but to no avail, so I'm making a thread for it because I need advice.

I've 1cc'd 5 touhou games on normal now, and finally looking to step up my difficulty.

For practice, I've been trying playing no life no bomb (you can choose life/bomb count in menus) on lunatic, because I tend to bomb pre-emptively whenever I see a lot of bullets, which is fine on normal but I'll need to kick the habit to compete with all the bosses on lunatic.

tl;dr: what have you done to improve your touhou skills?

Even if you aren't really good, I'd like to hear as many different takes on this as possible so all input is welcome :)

PS EosD-specific advice is very much welcome as well.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011, 07:46:33 AM »
There is a very good thread for things like these, right here. In this thread you may ask for specific advice on spellcards, non-spells and such.

As for your question i can only reply with "practice". A lot of practice is the best way to improve. Make sure to practice against things that you aren't capable of doing yet and you will start to build up the skills you need.

One thing about gaining skill that I have noticed for myself is that you will hardly ever notice the progress you are making when its actually happening. You will just suddenly go "when did i become that good?". That's my experience anyway. I hardly ever feel like i'm getting anywhere and suddenly i have gotten somewhere. It may of course be different to other people.

To sum it all up. Stage practice a lot. Grind hard stuff like VoWG Lunatic. Its a nice skillgrind since its both a fun and difficult card. But you'll need different kinds of skills also so make sure to spread out your practicing all over the place. Try to perfect bosses or even stages. That's what i've always done... and most of those bosses i have ever perfected i'm pretty much consistent 1DNB/perfect on.

Good luck with 1cc'ing EoSD. Its the hardest non-UFO non-PC98 game there is.

Drake

  • *
Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, 08:22:24 AM »
I tend to bomb pre-emptively whenever I see a lot of bullets
Dear god do not stop doing this. This is actually a problem with most players as they don't use all their bombs. Regardless, practicing things without bombs is obviously good exercise since you don't want to bomb everything which is likely your point, but don't give up that pre-emptive bomb reflex.

Please upload a replay so we can see how you play in a real run!

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
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Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, 08:32:27 AM »
I find SA to be much harder than EoSD personally but whatever.

In any case, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to say no deaths no bombs when you practice. Actually I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea. When you're going for a real 1cc, you use bombs, or at least if you're going for a first. Nobody did their first 1cc with no bombs. Conditioning yourself not to use something that's pretty much neccesary to succeed is foolish.

Not dying is ideal too, but if you die, it's best to just swallow your pride and keep plugging away, because as much as you need to restart and practice what you just failed 5 times in a row, you're going to need to practice the stuff that comes afterwards that you didn't even ATTEMPT a single time even more.

Unfortunately, I don't practice what I preach, I rage-restart like an idiot every time I die or bomb before the 3rd stage in pretty much every game I play, derpa derpa.

Sometimes, your first 1cc is the run that you say to yourself midway thru stage 3 "holy shit t his is the shittiest run ever I should just restart".

Another thing to do that I haven't done since my first EoSD lunatic 1cc (The first lunatic I've done), is watch better players videos, it sure helped alot knowing I could camp the top of the screen for stage 5, how to make Sakuya's misdirection simple, seeing I could fly thru patchy's laser noncard near the end of its rotation (but when it was still fully displayed), etc. Before that I also found the "safe spot" for Youmu's stage 6 spellcard, or whatever. Basically, watch several replays from various great players, and you'll inevitably learn something that makes something hard so easy.

Alot of the time you realize that the skilled players aren't actually THAT much more skilled, it's just that the experience pays off so much more than you can anticipate, even for the seemingly random parts.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, 08:50:42 AM »
Dear god do not stop doing this. This is actually a problem with most players as they don't use all their bombs. Regardless, practicing things without bombs is obviously good exercise since you don't want to bomb everything which is likely your point, but don't give up that pre-emptive bomb reflex.

Please upload a replay so we can see how you play in a real run!

Actually I did it so much it was really becoming a problem... At first I was working on perfecting mechanics, using all my bombs and accepting any deaths when I was out, but on Lunatic my brain would go "bomb here do it now you need to use your bombs" so much I wasn't getting any better since I was bombing through absolutely everything...

I'll go fetch some replays... My EosD ones are dated (first game I beat) so I'll also upload my 1cc of UFO on normal(last one i beat)

http://www.2shared.com/file/Qo0Iau3_/th6_09.html EosD 1cc

http://www.2shared.com/file/XqrirVa0/th12_01.html UFO 1cc

If you are especially intrigued I have another replay of myself getting to Maze of love on flandre, I'll upload that as well i suppose... I'll have to find it though, so I'll upload it in a minute

here it is: http://www.2shared.com/file/UxiIbjhq/th6_10.html
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 09:09:38 AM by erbKING »

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 09:05:10 AM »
Actually I did it so much it was really becoming a problem... At first I was working on perfecting mechanics, using all my bombs and accepting any deaths when I was out, but on Lunatic my brain would go "bomb here do it now you need to use your bombs" so much I wasn't getting any better since I was bombing through absolutely everything...

That is where the practicing comes in. While you are practicing you'll come across a number of attacks that you will be able to pull of consistently. Then when going for 1cc's you can bomb everything you find hard while aiming for a capture of whatever attack you feel you can consistently capture. Then when you are out of bombs you'll be forced to dodge the best you can. And you'll be surprised to see how much having no bombs can do to you. Because when you play shooting games there are the opportunities for epic dodge maneuvers, that you might not have the guts to attempt if you have a couple of bombs ready, and you'll have no choice but to just trust your instincts, hitbox and skills and attempt what sounds like suicide.

I find SA to be much harder than EoSD personally but whatever.
Different people will of course find different games harder than the other because of a variety of personal reasons.
In my case with EoSD, something with how the game works, the fewer resources and the hitboxes. Its usually something that for everyone else looks minor.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 09:16:23 AM »
I find SA to be much harder than EoSD personally but whatever.

In any case, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to say no deaths no bombs when you practice. Actually I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea. When you're going for a real 1cc, you use bombs, or at least if you're going for a first. Nobody did their first 1cc with no bombs. Conditioning yourself not to use something that's pretty much neccesary to succeed is foolish.

Not dying is ideal too, but if you die, it's best to just swallow your pride and keep plugging away, because as much as you need to restart and practice what you just failed 5 times in a row, you're going to need to practice the stuff that comes afterwards that you didn't even ATTEMPT a single time even more.

Unfortunately, I don't practice what I preach, I rage-restart like an idiot every time I die or bomb before the 3rd stage in pretty much every game I play, derpa derpa.

Sometimes, your first 1cc is the run that you say to yourself midway thru stage 3 "holy shit t his is the shittiest run ever I should just restart".

Another thing to do that I haven't done since my first EoSD lunatic 1cc (The first lunatic I've done), is watch better players videos, it sure helped alot knowing I could camp the top of the screen for stage 5, how to make Sakuya's misdirection simple, seeing I could fly thru patchy's laser noncard near the end of its rotation (but when it was still fully displayed), etc. Before that I also found the "safe spot" for Youmu's stage 6 spellcard, or whatever. Basically, watch several replays from various great players, and you'll inevitably learn something that makes something hard so easy.

Alot of the time you realize that the skilled players aren't actually THAT much more skilled, it's just that the experience pays off so much more than you can anticipate, even for the seemingly random parts.

In terms of watching other's replays, I've really been considering that and I think that was the tipping point, I'll go d/l some now(practicing is getting frustrating, I got the same rage-restart problem(except its bomb/die before beating rumia, long way to go still :/ )

The idea of no life no bomb practice was to limit how many times I would rage-restart, and to learn to move thru the beginning spell patterns easily to get max power quickly. I've been doing practice mode for individual stages too, because I really need to learn to dodge most of the patterns through out meilings level, and since it's practice I'll be much more likely to just keep on trucking if I go for some stupid "i can totally pass the PoC now to get those points" move and get killed.

Jaimers

  • You just did it because you're older than me.
Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 10:09:25 AM »
tl;dr: what have you done to improve your touhou skills?

I played a lot of the Phantasmagoria's and StB back in the day. The Phantasmagoria's help a lot to improve your raw dodging and StB forces you to learn advanced techniques as well as speed control over your character.

As for EoSD advice. Learn the stages, plan the bombs. Get comfortable with the hitboxes. (although this is all general advice actually)

J.O.B

  • YOU CAN'T MAKE ME CHANGE
Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 11:45:46 AM »
I can feel your pain when you say that you bomb things too much, I do it a lot.
But as other people have said, using your bombs can be good, and when you use up all your bombs, do your best doging and you will improve.
I used to bomb my way through Flandre(I still do it sometimes:3) but once I lost all my bombs just as Flandre appeared(well not just) and I managed to capture her first 3-4 cards for the first(or second) time.
Don't push yourself to stop bombing just yet, every once in a while is when you need to attempt to do it.
Once you feel used to it is when you can attempt it more, and once you realize that you've done it, you'll be a much better player.

I'm surprised at the advice I gave, I can't 1cc most games on hard but I'm getting there.
brb, trying the advice I gave.

EDIT: Since I play lunatic on stage practice I decided to unlock all lunatic stages for MarisA in EoSD.
So I played the game in full game mode(to unlock shit of course) I managed to get through fine(to my standards at least a.k.a I 2cc'd the game :( *sigh*)
I noticed my dodging improved a lot, I even managed to do some holyshitcrazydodges that I might do occasionaly.
But the point is, I did better than I thought I could.

Lol that point is not related to the first one at all :derp:
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 12:26:54 PM by J.O.B »

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 07:16:03 PM »
- try to play below Max Power for as long as you can (because Max Power raises rank). For me, it was until stage 3 before midboss Meiling iirc.
- try to learn some spellcards and nonspellcards and time them out if you can (some of them aren't as much difficult to timeout, but even so, it'll pay out later). For example, you can timeout Cirno's laser+bullet stream nonspells, Rumia's spells and nonspells, Meiling's doll streams sc, Meiling's rainbow bullet spiral sc, Remilia's big red bullets sc (one of her first scs or nonspells, don't remember now, where she either fires aimed bullets or starts shooting bullets at fixed directions/angles; you can option select here by standing at the farthest upper corner of the screen and seeing if she has fired the aimed big bullets or the fixed big ones), Remilia's spiraling knives.
- try to learn some of the stages' safer zones (upper corners near the end of stage 3, where a lot of fairies shoot downwards, upper half of the screen above the maid fairies on stage 5 which go from one side of the screen to another shooting downwards, middle of the screen on stage 6 and in some places of stage 5 where fairies come from both sides spreading rings of bullets with aimed (micro-dodgeable) bullets
- try to plan your bombs (for example, on patterns with high clipdeath potential such as Meiling's spiraling kunai, or somewhere in stage 4 where there's kunai and lasers and you're supposed to micro stream the kunai)
- learn stage 4's enemy placements (there are some enemies on it which shoot away from you, there are some enemies which require you to know where they'll come from -- bad memory from me, can't help you here)
- make sure you've brought enough lives and bombs to stage 5, don't think about playing for score (especially since doing so requires you to further memorize opportunities for grazing and spending bombs for clearing bullets and using their invulnerability time for point-blank grazing)
- Marisa B is an option if you like the idea of dealing high damage on bosses with bombs and can align your laser with them (this should make a difference on the latter bosses)
- like Jaimers said, try to get used to the bullets' hitboxes, they can be confusing and limiting if overestimated, and deadly when underestimated. A frustrating step, I know, but really needed if you want to have better chances to 1cc this game.

edit: this replay was done in 3 days iirc, during the SotW's Varth week. I really wanted to play Varth but had engaged in a challenge where I had to 1cc EoSD Lunatic before my friend reaches DDP's second loop (in other words, exchanged challenges). Played Varth for the remainder of the week, had LOTS of fun with it since it was the first time I got past stage 17, ever since knowing this game on 2009's STG Tournament on the shmups.system11.org forums (on which I've participated for the first time too, so Varth is special for me, especially because it was the game for STGT '09's first week), and reached a score which is imho really more difficult to attain, than reaching DDP's second loop (a bit over 5,000,000 points, on stage 25 -- everyone should have a chance to fight the boss at this stage, under high rank and your last life, which I had to maintain shortly after derping the extra life I got at 4,500,000 points. Lol @ my brief sense of relief. 1.50 Lagless 99p input file here.)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 07:28:50 PM by shadowbringer »
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

MTSranger

  • =.=
Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 07:37:09 PM »
1. perfect stage 1, you should finish with ~50+ power
2. bomb beginning of stage 2 for item collection, you can also bomb Cirno if you need to, but no more than 1-2 bombs
3. stage 3 - memorize!, also recognize when Meiling will cause clipdeaths (ie when she moves too low in certain attacks)
4. stage 4 - memorize!, bomb patchy if you happen to have very hard attacks (Bury in the lake, Emerald Megalith, leaf storm, etc)
5. stage 5 - you'd better have some strategy of not losing more than 2 lives here, so memorize an easy route, and bomb Sakuya
6. stage 6 - practice this to death, you need to be able to do Scarlet Gensokyo without massive resource bleed

EoSD doesn't give you very much resource, and with the life drain that is stage 4 and 5, it's hard to enter stage 6 with 4 lives.
It would be preferable if you can beat Remilia with only 2 lives.

MarisaB will allow you to bomb through many cards, and stuff like stage 4 books.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2011, 10:47:38 PM »
1. perfect stage 1, you should finish with ~50+ power
2. bomb beginning of stage 2 for item collection, you can also bomb Cirno if you need to, but no more than 1-2 bombs
3. stage 3 - memorize!, also recognize when Meiling will cause clipdeaths (ie when she moves too low in certain attacks)
4. stage 4 - memorize!, bomb patchy if you happen to have very hard attacks (Bury in the lake, Emerald Megalith, leaf storm, etc)
5. stage 5 - you'd better have some strategy of not losing more than 2 lives here, so memorize an easy route, and bomb Sakuya
6. stage 6 - practice this to death, you need to be able to do Scarlet Gensokyo without massive resource bleed

EoSD doesn't give you very much resource, and with the life drain that is stage 4 and 5, it's hard to enter stage 6 with 4 lives.
It would be preferable if you can beat Remilia with only 2 lives.

MarisaB will allow you to bomb through many cards, and stuff like stage 4 books.

1. check!(somtimes I get hit by rumias final spell though)
2. check! I didn't know you were actually supposed to bomb here for points, but I always did anyway

Ok, just gotta work on memorization...

PS I always use reimu A because I can't aim and dodge on harder spells

Jaimers

  • You just did it because you're older than me.
Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2011, 11:01:30 PM »
Reimu A is actually pretty good as she has the easiest Patchy battle. She is pretty weak though and some spots in the game require luck to get through with her. I'm not sure if she's the easiest to 1cc with.
Marisa B also has a really easy Patchy battle and Master Spark so I guess there's that.

Point 2 is not necessary. You can just stream the opening of the stage and still get max power before getting to Cirno.
The first half of stage 5 has a blindspot above the screen, but it's a bit tricky to use especially with Reimu A. You gotta microtap to dodge the aimed round bullets.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2011, 11:27:11 PM »
I've always used MarisaA for EoSD.  Her focused shot completely slaughters bosses, and I've never been fond of spark because of the slow movement during it... Or did that only start in PCB, I forget.  Anyway, ReimuA is usually my second choice because homing is always nice on stages, albeit a bit weak.  In fact, my first clears on most of the games were with a homing type.  I believe SA is the only exception to that.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 12:11:53 AM »
I still derped up Patchouli on my 1cc to the point where I would have been better off picking MarisA instead of MarisaB considering I didn't capture any of the spells on it.

I actually never beat Remilia with 2 spare lives or less, until the run where I pulled off the 1cc.

Re: 1cc EosD on lunatic (general advice)
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 09:35:05 PM »
Sometimes, your first 1cc is the run that you say to yourself midway thru stage 3 "holy shit t his is the shittiest run ever I should just restart".

This was true for me. I died twice to Orlean's Dolls in PCB, went to rage-retry, stopped, breathed, and unpaused. 1cc'd 0/1.
Quote from Myosotis:
"Marriage is a game you can't win. Also, no replay value and the level design is bullshit.