Author Topic: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)  (Read 24831 times)

Azure Lazuline

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Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« on: December 16, 2010, 02:58:35 AM »
Pictures speak louder than words, so I'll skip the introductions.













Download Page
Also has more information and some other downloads, like just the soundtrack.

Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 03:01:46 AM »
Here I come to post on how awesome this is!

I'll leave feedback once I play it with all the shot types.

Chronojet ⚙ Dragon

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 03:03:10 AM »
So that's where "Azu*rai" went.

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2010, 03:24:55 AM »
I'm curious as to what you changed from private to open beta. Anything we should look for?

Azure Lazuline

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 04:01:57 AM »
Bug fixes, interface improvements (like the high score display, and your "cleared" status displaying on the results screen), a few changes to the danmaku (mostly in stage 2), and a few secret things added. Nothing earth-shattering, but it's a decent amount of changes.

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 05:54:06 AM »
EEEEEE! Awesome!

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 10:30:37 AM »
Wow

Ⓘ Ⓗⓐⓓ ⓢⓔⓘⓩⓤⓡⓔⓢ ⓣⓘⓜⓔⓢ
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 04:34:42 AM by Foremoster »
Hey There !

Kylesky

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2010, 02:40:49 PM »
Pure awesome... (but I think it's a bit hard... only my opinion though :V)
Danmakufu Script Thread :V Latest Script: Intertwining Mechanical Intervention (temp name)

Yooooouuutuuuubeeee Channel Latest Video: Contest #8 Entry

KomeijiKoishi

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2010, 04:43:42 PM »
Haven't played much and therefore only a single complaint:

Raibys' weapon switching feels slippy. I'd prefer having it like with MarisaB in SA where you have to push Shot and Focus for the shottype to switch.

Otherwise, yeah, can't add anything more to what the rest said concerning its awesomeness.

DgBarca

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2010, 05:06:10 PM »
"This kinda sounds like Strawberry Crisis!!"
*Strawberry attak*
OH MY GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWD

Well, since the difficulty is not the same as in touhou, I played in "Planet".
The difficulty curse is kind of strange, some spell cards looks impossible when you faces them for the first time (like yukari's portals)

But seriously this is AMAZING, so shiny-*
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:20:32 PM by DgBarca »
[21:16] <redacted> dgbarca makes great work
[21:16] <redacted> i hope he'll make a full game once

Schezo

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2010, 05:36:28 PM »
 :ohdear: I got an error right before the second boss fight.  I was Lymia on easy.

Although I did make it to stage 3 with Raibys and you some awesome spellcards on that fight.

Infy♫

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2010, 06:04:34 PM »
doesnt seem like the gameplay/danmaku can compete with the graphics :/

Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 06:38:10 PM »
Hmm that may be it because I've tried it a few more times and it didn't come back. Strange.

Jaimers

  • You just did it because you're older than me.
Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 08:26:02 PM »
I'm really digging this so far, good job.

There seems to be something odd in the tutorial though. After the streaming tutorial Meteo's dialogue seems off if you choose the bottom option. He'll say the "impressive" lines and continues fighting you even though he says he's done.
I'm not fond of MarisaB's setup in SA but Raibys' weapon switching is just fine as it is for me.

Oh and as requested.  :V

Azure Lazuline

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 09:12:13 PM »
For future reference: "I got an error" is not useful at all. Take a screenshot of the error window or copy it or something.

KomeijiKoishi

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 10:59:12 PM »
I'm not fond of MarisaB's setup in SA but Raibys' weapon switching is just fine as it is for me.

I tend to tap Shift a lot in certain situations, that's why using it and it only for switching around weapons doesn't really feel like I have control over it. Maybe using C for the weapon change would be a good alternative.

Also
Spoiler:
OMG KISUME CAMEO

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2010, 12:01:01 AM »
I remember re-watching the stage 1 video a few times and from that I never could've been able to predicted how much of a twist I was in for XD this is pretty amazing!

So I was like "Stage 1 is just how I remembered seeing it only with better danmaku for ender, and the stage 2 mid-boss sound-system guy is the cutest thing ever! and OH MAH GAWD Kisume! and then the words "Border of gensokyo" comes onscreen and im like .... WOOoooooo~ NO WAI!"

So yeah that was pretty fun and challenging XD it amazing what you've done with effects

Chronojet ⚙ Dragon

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2010, 12:11:41 AM »
and the stage 2 mid-boss sound-system guy is the cutest thing ever

:V
You would have caught the picture I put up on #danmakufu. It should be floating around somewhere.

Also. How does
Spoiler:
Road to Makai
work? I can never actually capture it.
(Bomb spam is cruise control for cool. Yeah!)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 12:15:10 AM by Mewkyuu »

Bitz

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2010, 12:36:47 AM »
Presentation is definitely great. I'm almost afraid of the effects, because they're just as good, if not better, than the effects in my own danmaku game.

The main issue I see with AWC, however, would be the fact that it's almost impossible to get past the presentation "layer" and rate the other aspects of the game - e.g., danmaku, gameplay, story, etc. From what I gather, the story is essentially "It's just a normal day, but not really, because there are evil things! Let's go blow them up! Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE EVIL" ? or, the equivalent of no story. This is unsurprising and almost expected, actually, but I can't really complain because Touhou's storylines are pretty bad too.

The gameplay system, that is, those weird symbol things, and filling up those various card-looking things on the right, is overdone and superficial. When there are five (?) types of whatevertheyares, and danmaku's flying around everywhere, there's no time to think "oh gosh I don't REALLY need a bullet clear right now" or soforth. The player doesn't really get a choice, really, because it's a huge flarghing blob of magic or technodynamic energy or whatnot and it's really hard to not gather; although in honesty, I really can't see anyone going "I don't need a bullet clear or item magnet or extra bomb." Henceforth, the gameplay system is simply a facade, that yields absolutely no requirement for any extra strategy at all, aside from the usual "RUN AND GRAB ITEMS" attitude that pervades all danmaku games; whereas PCB's cherry system requires strategic timing of borders, or MoF's faith system requires meticulous item-grabbing adroitness, or UFO's UFO system (derp) requires memorization and precise timing, AWC's symbolthingy system adds nothing to the gameplay at all.

Another concern with the gameplay is switching shottypes. Having a billion shottypes that can be switched between is not necessarily a good thing. Granted, put in the right context, the ability to change shottypes could be a great addition to a game, maybe its selling point. However, that game would have to be built around switching shottypes, not just shove it in as some sort of "extra" thing that adds to the shininess. At least AWC makes it simple: "Stage? Use the biggest spread shot. Boss? Use the focused shot." That's a no-brainer. I must admit that I haven't played enough of this game to truly criticize the shot-switching system, though; I haven't exposed myself to the nuances of the stages enough to be able to say with certainty that the shot-switching system is good or unnecessary. Using shift to switch shots is just plain annoying, by the way. At some points it leaves the player completely at the mercy of the game whether they have a focused or spread shot.

Danmaku - well, there's not much I can say about the danmaku. I felt there was a lot more "raw" danmaku than strategic danmaku, in the sense that memorization wouldn't be very helpful. Of course, it's questionable whether this is intentional or not, or more importantly, whether this is a virtue or a flaw. UFO, after all, is infamous for having lots of "raw" danmaku.

My overall impression is that AWC hides underneath a mask ? layers of fancy shiny magical effects, layers of an ostentatious attitude that pierces into every other aspect of the game: gameplay, danmaku, etc. It's going to take time to peel away at these layers, but eventually, these layers will be removed, and AWC's true colors will be exposed.

Summary
Story: 4/10 ? A story without a story. A world without a background. Zzz...
Gameplay: 6/10 ? Danmaku is not memorable, yet not bad. Most gameplay mechanics are unnecessary and ostentatious.
Presentation: 9/10 ? Awesome graphics, music, effects, everything. Scares the hell out of Bitzeralisis.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 12:39:20 AM by Bitz »

Azure Lazuline

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2010, 01:05:59 AM »
All story complaints: Remember, this is less than half the game. Since when does Touhou have any story in the first three stages? The emphasis is on funny/cool dialogue and characters, not events. It's the same here. Also, the world actually has a lot of backstory and more characters, but I don't want to put all of it in the game - I'm going to make more games that take place in this world, so I'll put the deep story in a genre that it makes more sense in, not a linear shooter.

All shot switching complaints: Use a different character, then.

Quote
Henceforth, the gameplay system is simply a facade, that yields absolutely no requirement for any extra strategy at all, aside from the usual "RUN AND GRAB ITEMS" attitude that pervades all danmaku games; whereas PCB's cherry system requires strategic timing of borders, or MoF's faith system requires meticulous item-grabbing adroitness, or UFO's UFO system (derp) requires memorization and precise timing, AWC's symbolthingy system adds nothing to the gameplay at all.

I don't see how it's really different than "I shouldn't grab this border until later." You can either plan it out or you can just go with what you get. I don't want a super-complicated system, and I don't want it to be impossible to do score runs without planning out the exact item route. I'm aiming this more towards casual players than score players, and I want score to mostly represent how good you're doing in general rather than how good you are at scoring, if that makes sense.

I'm glad the overall reaction is really positive, though. I wasn't expecting everyone to love this, since I'm straying quite a bit from normal Touhou danmaku/gameplay (there's already 12+ of those, why make another one?), but I'm actually getting more positive feedback than I expected. I know my danmaku design could use a bit of work, but I'm personally happy with it.

Bitz

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 01:34:00 AM »
I don't see how it's really different than "I shouldn't grab this border until later." You can either plan it out or you can just go with what you get. I don't want a super-complicated system, and I don't want it to be impossible to do score runs without planning out the exact item route. I'm aiming this more towards casual players than score players, and I want score to mostly represent how good you're doing in general rather than how good you are at scoring, if that makes sense.

A border can be well-timed: delaying it could actually benefit the character. On the other hand, there is no such thing as a "well-timed extra life," although I suppose a "well-timed" bullet clear or item-magnet could make some sense. Generally, however, your game's screen is filled with enemies and bullets, and there are few opportunities where a bullet-clear would NOT be "well-timed." Item magnets would be useless during the high-health enemy parts, but as I said, most of the time the screen is filled with enemies and, henceforth, items.

I think what I'm really pointing out is that this whole game is just really, really showy. My criticisms are currently being subjectively influenced, I believe, so please excuse me if I'm being overly harsh.

Edit: Oh, by the way, is the middle character the only one with shot-switching? Based on everybody's complaints, I almost thought for a moment there that ALL the characters had shot-switching. My bad.

Chronojet ⚙ Dragon

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2010, 02:06:26 AM »
Edit: Oh, by the way, is the middle character the only one with shot-switching? Based on everybody's complaints, I almost thought for a moment there that ALL the characters had shot-switching. My bad.

Nhimor has pseudo-shot-switching.
I mean, you can position your options one-by-one by tapping the shot button so you have a "new" shot type.

Raibys

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2010, 03:33:06 AM »
Story: 4/10 ? A story without a story. A world without a background. Zzz...

Well, about you saying it's "a world without a background"... The characters and story are all from a universe and storyline I have been working on for years at this point; it's something I want to eventually make into a game and/or TV show eventually. (Azure already linked my deviantart account though, so that might have already been somewhat evident) This game is simply a sort of crossover of my world and concepts with those of Touhou. I as of late have even been working on a sort of encyclopedia for my universe where I've been organizing the sheer amount of characters, places, and just overall general...stuff I have made. It's far from presentable right now, though, and in this demo all this is not necessarily apparent I suppose.

Anyway, I also think your expectations story-wise are a bit unrealistic. I mean, it's a 3-stage danmaku demo, not an RPG. It's not like story was ever a huge focus in particular in danmaku in the first place, mostly due to the fact that, quite frankly, the danmaku format is not exactly the best medium for creating a story-intensive epic. Of course, that isn't to say that there *isn't* a real story to this game, because trust me, there is. But again, this is a demo, so I don't really think the fact that the "point" to the story not being apparent yet  can really be that worth criticizing.

*shrug*

But yeah, I have been inactive here lately, but in case anyone here doesn't know/remember me, I'm the other person who's been working on this project (though of course, we all know Azure is the more talented one out of us two , ehehe...), so I too appreciate all the feedback (whether positive or critical) everyone's been giving. ^_^;
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 03:45:12 AM by Raibys »

Bitz

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2010, 06:27:21 AM »
I concede. I shouldn't be criticizing the story, and am sincerely sorry if I accidentally hurt your feelings (the word "years" especially had a profound effect on me, because I too have been working on a world for quite a while (though I couldn't possibly imagine it being a TV show)).

Stuffman

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2010, 11:09:34 AM »
I'm playing this a whole bunch and trying to gather my thoughts on it, until I have something more substantial to say here are a few thoughts:
- The dialogue is surprisingly entertaining.
- Lymia needs a buff I think, Ender can do nine Vorpal Blades before she can finish him, while Raibys and Nhimor can both capture it in just under six (with red mode and all options hitting, respectively). So that means she is only doing around 65% of their optimum damage which is pretty bad.
- On that note, Nhimor doesn't need the four bombs, he's a beast.
- I actually agree with Bitz somewhat about the item system, while I like the concept of the pseudo-chaining thing (which, by the way, again does not work in Lymia's favor because she doesn't have a way to do pinpoint damage), you don't really have a choice of what items you get to grab, it's just a matter of what comes your way. Compare it to say, UFO, where you get to choose what color of UFO you want; if you're going to have a resource management system there needs to be more choice involved than simply deciding whether to activate something now or later. I don't think the system needs to be scrapped but I'm not quite sure what should be done with it at the moment.
- The bullet clear in particular seems questionable, since when you need it most (i.e. fuckton of bullets onscreen) you don't have the freedom to go grab it. It also doesn't help that it's difficult to judge how much energy the item will give you based on it's size.
- As a side note, I played the tutorial specifically to find out what each item type does and Meteo was like "lol figure it out yourself". This would be nice information to share :V
- The game is extremely noisy visually, with all the shiny stuff onscreen and EVERYTHING being rainbow-colored it can be easy to lose track of what's going on. I'm not sure what specific examples I could give at the moment, but I think it's important that enemy bullets need to strongly contrast with everything else onscreen.
- Meteo as secret playable character plz

KomeijiKoishi

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2010, 03:08:45 PM »
All shot switching complaints: Use a different character, then.

Sadly, Raibys is still the character I like playing the most.

Maybe I just have to live with it.

Iryan

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2010, 03:42:06 PM »
The experienced disappointment with the story in comparison to touhou despite it not actually being worse than them is easily explained by the fact that with the touhou games you usually have quite a bit of preexisting knowledge through general forum chit-chat and buildup by ZUN, which obviously was not really very possible with AWC, as well as the fact that most of us play the official games before there is an English patch, so there is no dialogue for us to care about on our first playthroughs, as well as the fact that with the regular games we already know several of the characters and other info about the setting.

Though I still think that just because ZUN doesn't weave the story well into the games, that does not mean that it isn't possible. But since you said you wanted to redo the dialogue of at least Raibys' scenario, I am pretty confident that you two will be able to improve on this.  :3
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 03:46:11 PM by Iryan »
Old Danmakufu stuff can be found here!

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Infy♫

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Mongo
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2010, 04:08:32 PM »
I think the story should at least be made a little more clear in the dialogue.

Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2010, 05:36:01 PM »
Bullet clears need to happen more often. I always get them right before the boss durdurdur :getdown:

Azure Lazuline

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Re: Another World's Chaos (3-stage demo release)
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2010, 05:50:56 PM »
Lymia needing a buff: Remember that she has homing shots and chain-lightning, so she hits many more enemies than anyone else at the expense of being weaker against single targets. She is also the fluffiest, which gives her a distinct advantage, as well as having some of the best bombs. I'll consider increasing her damage, though.

Nhimor having four bombs actually doesn't change much. That just means three extra bombs over the course of the game, just to offset him being the hardest to use character. His bombs are still the weakest overall, even though his unfocused bomb has extremely cute sound effects.

As for the items, I'm not 100% satisfied with it either. I think the item effects could be better, but I like it overall. Maybe if the effects were more useful to plan ahead of time, it would be more interesting. Also, nobody seems to be taking into account that, even while the items you get are semi-fixed, it really depends on what enemies you choose to kill and your strategy for each wave. It's not like in Touhou where you'll always kill every enemy. Also, as evidenced by the latest post, there are times when you shouldn't get them, which is why I gave them a slower drop speed - you can get all the other items without unintentionally triggering the effect if it won't be useful. Perhaps I just need more waves of enemies that have different drops for each side of the screen, so choosing which one to get is more pronounced?
If anyone has ideas for other effects that don't include invincibility, tell me.

Also, like I said before, I don't want a complicated item system. The UFO system seems to detract a lot from the game in my opinion, having to plan out everything beforehand and rewarding memorization. MoF's Faith system is similar, though not as bad (except screwing over your score if you die even once, which is horrible). I mean, I like complicated systems, but I just wouldn't want one in this game.

More story talk: I think it's more important to have distinct characters and funny dialogue than it is to have a complex story. I'm glad so many people are interested in it though, and I'll have the remaining stages focus more on that - so far, the characters have only fought minor enemies, but the big guys are coming up pretty soon.
Also, Iryan, we already did.