The Dream is Dead.

[三重階乗]

*sigh* I'm honestly sorry for getting you guys all into this. I was a fool to think I actually had a chance to endure. But I posted my last hope on the Internet, so I need to post my surrender as well so people don't falsely think I'm still in this.

The original post, as I truly deserve any and all humiliation, infamy, et al I get:

During the winter of '08-09, I had about a 2-week stretch of actually playing the Touhou games for a while. I felt like I had to prove something to myself. I needed to prove to myself that I could perservere through the hardships of Bullet Hell and meet the one who brought me here. Even if it took me years just to reach Remilia Scarlet and she won the only duel we would ever have, I'd have been honored just to experience the very beauty that fated me into this world.

I could not hold on to that drive. What I was up against was simply too much for my willpower to keep going. The last few days I felt like I was approaching a glass ceiling, fighting a losing battle, and forcing myself to play until I could no more. I wound up stopping because I thought I had reached the limit of my abilities. That I would never be any better than I already was (which was pretty bad; no 1CCs even on Easy, my best was narrowly reaching Yuyuko on it), no matter how much more I tried. I'd basically be like Glass Joe, except that I wouldn't even have a fluke win to my name.

Now, I find myself 2 years seperated from what remains my only attempt to get into playing the Touhou games. I've considered it twice before, put passed it of as nothing more than an "if only" thing. If I don't do it this time and hold on to it, I'll likely never will myself to play Touhou ever again.

The problem is I don't think I have the will it takes to return. I didn't then, and I still don't now since I've already failed to do so twice. As long as I think that way, I won't be able to hang on because I don't believe that I can. I'll lose my willpower again and reach the same problems I did the time I actually played.

I'm not sure what I should do, or even if there is anything I can do besides "STFU and do it" or "GTFO you Sec." If I do the former, I'll probably fall back into the problems I had the one time I have played. I feel like I'm a disgrace to the community, having tried tried to play once and now feel like I may never do so again.

I'm willing to go for it one last time, but if I stop playing again, it'll prove that I'm a failure as a Touhou fan. I've tried, fallen, thought unable to even get on my hands and knees for 2 years, just now mustered up the balls to try to get back in, and I'm telling the Internet about it all. That must make me look pathetic.

But if I don't put this up somewhere I'll forget it and blow this urge to go for it. I'll probably need more to help me stick to it, so any ideas toward keeping myself regularly playing this time around would be helpful.

[nintendonut888]

So...huh? Sorry, but you didn't quite make clear your point. :S You want to 1cc EoSD normal?

Also, not being able to do that doesn't make you "a disgrace to the community." Many a person can't 1cc IN easy, or have never played the games period, and they're not lesser people for it. It's just a game.

[The Greatest Dog]

Hey now. Don't think that the ability to be a Touhou fan is defined by one's ability to play the games alone.

But I can't control whatever your decision would be, but we can also offer as much anecdotal advice as we can possibly afford. Heck, we could lend a score.dat so you can fight Remilia in practice mode, with nothing but three lives and a total of ten possible bombs.

And to play Stage Six on Normal and learn how to dodge those bullets will surely help your skills a little, right?

[三重階乗]

So...huh? Sorry, but you didn't quite make clear your point. :S You want to 1cc EoSD normal?

Also, not being able to do that doesn't make you "a disgrace to the community." Many a person can't 1cc IN easy, or have never played the games period, and they're not lesser people for it. It's just a game.

That was my initial goal (I couldn't force myself to use a continue back then), but it seems I put the bar too high. Right now I'm just trying to get into playing regularly since that's the first step to doing anything about this.

And it's not that I couldn't 1CC anything; it's the fact that I abandoned play for 2 years afterward that made me feel so bad about it. For some reason I find it worse to have tried something once, appear to fail miserably, and never go back than to not even try. The fact that I had to post it on the Internet for all to see lest I lose my likely last chance to redeem myself didn't help, either.

But I can't control whatever your decision would be, but we can also offer as much anecdotal advice as we can possibly afford. Heck, we could lend a score.dat so you can fight Remilia in practice mode, with nothing but three lives and a total of ten possible bombs.

And to play Stage Six on Normal and learn how to dodge those bullets will surely help your skills a little, right?

I haven't played in 2 years. I need to get back on my hands and knees so I can get crawling again before I dare try run the mile with her. The one time I tried EoSD Normal I got whooped by Meiling, so I need to practice more than just specific stages; I need to rework myself overall.

[Vibri]

Uh if you want to play the games then just play the games
If you want to accomplish something specific keep playing the games until that happens
If you don't want to play the games because they're too hard for you, then don't play the games anymore

This is really not complicated, you don't need to do some kind of stupid penance for not playing the games, you just launch the application and then input commands to maneuver your player character until satisfaction is reached

[Khiash]

I was almost the exact same as you. I was actually worse off.
"I JUST BEAT EOSD ON EASY WITH CONTINUING! This is the best feeling EVER!
...What?! Now this game wants me to beat Normal.. WITHOUT continues?! Is this game on crack or something?"
That was around September 2009. Then I met a special friend of mine who basically started playing the game on Normal and was like "hey, this game is pretty fun. Remilia isn't that tough once you know what to do."
"..who's Remilia?"

And at this point in time, I'm now defeating Yukari just for practice. You WILL get better if you play Touhou consistently - the largest amount of difficulty goes away if you can fully memorize whose attacks do what. Practice and be patient!

[Drake]

[Saber Nero]

Personally out of all the bullet hell shooters for windows, I've found IN the easiest to play, then PCB, then SA, then Fairy Wars, then UFO, then EoSD, then MoF. And then Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler are somewhere off in the horizon.

I've personally always been frustrated myself not being able to beat EoSD without having to use a continue. I could say the same for MoF, and even UFO. They're games I simply can't get a handle of, without having to watch other people play them and see how they do it on their runs. But on the other hand, I find IN, PCB, SA, and Fairy Wars very easy to play. I'm not exactly sure why, but that's just how it is. Some people do better at some games than others. There's no real point trying to do the games in order either, unless you can really get a bit of storyline out of the few lines of dialogue ingame before and after every boss fight.

Hell, here's some of my personal failures when playing Touhou.

• Like I've said before, I've never gotten a "good end" on EoSD, MoF, or even UFO, because Murasa is hax. I've tried, had my ass beaten, then left it alone for a while while listening to some music to cool off, then try it again. Maybe I'd get a little farther, maybe I'd screw up and I'd leave it alone again. But to this day, I've never actually 1cc'd any of those games, even on easy.

• I have never successfully completed a single Extra or Phantasm run. I got destroyed by Flandre on her 5th spellcard, I've died against Ran on her very last spellcard, I couldn't get past Yukari's last spellcard even though it's all just memorization, I could not get past Fujiwara no Mokou's second spellcard, I can't even make it to Suwako because Sanae kills me first, Koishi is just complete rape with her huge bullets, and I have never made it past Marisa's Blazing Star. I just cannot handle Extra.

• I have never gotten to the final stages of Double Spoiler or Shoot the Bullet. I ragequit at Parsee in Double Spoiler, and something I don't even recognize kicked my ass out of Shoot the Bullet. So I gave up and never looked back on it. I haven't even been able to see Hatate :V

• I've never done a successful Hard/Lunatic run, because my eyes simply can't take it when it comes to the final boss. I actually get motion sickness from following those bullet patterns. Yes, secret shame!

Practice, or watch how other people do it. Otherwise, pick up a later brand of eye melting bullet hell shooter. Or earlier, if you prefer the PC98 games. And when you think you've got a handle on how to move and dodge, come back and try EoSD again.

[Zengeku]

The fact that you have actually played the games puts you way higher than your average Touhou fan in my perspective.

And at this point in time, I'm now defeating Yukari just for practice. You WILL get better if you play Touhou consistently - the largest amount of difficulty goes away if you can fully memorize whose attacks do what. Practice and be patient!

A lot of it also comes from getting better at the controls. That means less clipping.

Hey now. Don't think that the ability to be a Touhou fan is defined by one's ability to play the games alone.

No. Your ability to enjoy a video of two vampires on a pudding in a constant looping animation that goes on for two minutes is also a key factor.  :V

Many a person can't 1cc IN easy

Hopefully only because they don't try.

[かけふみ]

You actually dedicate some time to try and enjoy the games?



IMHO I dont really think EoSD is as condusive for practise because they only give 2 lives on a Practise run.

Keep having fun. After a while results should show.

[Zengeku]

Its good practice for survival.

[ふねん1]

If you ask me, EoSD is probably not the best choice for practicing general skills, because the game engine is pretty terrible. Practically every game past that is much better designed, and worlds more fun. But it's still your choice.

As others have said, don't feel bad about what happened before. Bullet hell games are supposed to be hard, and it usually takes way more than a few weeks to see the kind of improvement you're describing. Don't feel like you're being forced to get better "now", just play what you feel like and take it steady at this point. There are plenty of resources on the Internet to help you understand anything that confuses you: replays, Youtube vids, and even asking people on this board. Most importantly, don't give up! If you keep at it, you will get better.

[Romantique Tp]

If you ask me, EoSD is probably not the best choice for practicing general skills, because the game engine is pretty terrible. Practically every game past that is much better designed, and worlds more fun.

Why do you think so ?

[Sapz]

Ehh, I wouldn't say so. EoSD is still easily one my of favourite games in the series; lots of fun dodging without too many complications or much to memorize. It's pretty sweet for skill building since it's got a high amount of randomness and doesn't give you as many crutches as many of the other games (no hitbox displayed, very short deathbomb window, etc). IMO, of course, but I'd recommend it for sure.

[Zengeku]

I like it much as well. The only thing i find wrong with it is the hitboxes of the bubbles and the metal fatigue bullets. The only reason i find this problematic is that they are different from the rest of the series. It makes it an inconsistency that kills me as i primarily dodge bullets based on my experience with bullet hitboxes. If they are suddenly different, i die. 

Other than that, the game is the least memorization based game in the series and its a lot of fun.

[nintendonut888]

I like it much as well. The only thing i find wrong with it is the hitboxes of the bubbles and the metal fatigue bullets. The only reason i find this problematic is that they are different from the rest of the series. It makes it an inconsistency that kills me as i primarily dodge bullets based on my experience with bullet hitboxes. If they are suddenly different, i die. 

Other than that, the game is the least memorization based game in the series and its a lot of fun.

If you ignore the fact that the stages are entirely about memorization. :derp:

But anyway, have you tried again yet Triple Factorial? Considering the big OP you made, I'd expect you'd have attempted some run by now.

[Urutsune]

Can't beat EoSD? So what? I can't beat it the same way. It is not because you are bad or something it is just no good to start with normal difficulty for beginner lol. I often can't even reach Remilia (Curse you Patchy! It's all your fault!)! But I can beat all the other games... excpet UFO, I can't even reach the last stage there(Curse you Shou! It's all your fault!). But there are easy touhou games like PCB example, that one is so easy that I can nearly even beat it without continues (Curse you Prismriver Sisters! It's all your faults!). So either play easier games like PCB or IN. Or you can take on one of the game which has the infinite continue thingies in it like example MoF and SA, those games can be great for improving skills since you can re try a stage as many times as you want. That is how I started touhou too. Who cares about 1cc? In my eyes those challenges look nearly impossible, I am not japanese who borned with godly game skillz! When I have readed how many 1cc you need to do in The Great Fairy Wars to get the extra stage I thought I will faint right away there! But I do not care even if I never going to be able to do any 1cc (Curse you stage fours from touhou 6 to 8 and stage fives from touhou 10 to 12! It's all your faults!), I love the games and I enjoy them a lot. That is what only matters when you play a game, to enjoy it.
Oh do not say things like you can't be a touhou fan becayse you are not a pro in them. I have a friend who don't even played ANY touhou games(coz she don't wants to, as she stated "looks hard") but she still a giant hardcore fan!

[三重階乗]

But anyway, have you tried again yet Triple Factorial? Considering the big OP you made, I'd expect you'd have attempted some run by now.

I've been trying to, but Cirno is really screwing me over. Her first noncard and Icicle Fall are eating me for breakfast, resulting in me being 0/something both the times I've reach Perfect Freeze today. I can get through Rumia okay, but Cirno's being a real wake-up call as to how bad I am at this point.

I got to Diamond Dust (at 0/0) before this, but I got interrupted because I had to go somewhere and couldn't save.

[Schezo]

it is just no good to start with normal difficulty for beginner lol.

Yeah Imma have to disagree with this.  EoSD was the first Touhou I picked up and following some other's advice I started with Normal, not easy.  Yeah it was harder than hell but I got better a lot faster and now I've 1cced EoSD in the course of about 3-4 months.  I makes playing the others a lot more fun to start on Normal and not work through easy only to get raped on normal.

[Drake]

Also going to throw out that just because the majority of the population can't do it, it doesn't make sense that you can't either and should beat yourself up over it. If you want to put in the effort to be able to accomplish something, then you do it. You don't want to be with the majority of the population, you want to do it. You don't let anyone stand in your way, sympathetic or hypercritical. You just do it.

do it, motherfucker, do.

[nintendonut888]

Alright Triple Factorial, I just watched your replay. If I may, I would like to give a few beginners tip that may help you:

Learn when to focus and when to not focus

I noticed that the only times you focused were when a boss was on the screen. In fact, it is highly recommended that you be focused except when you need to move faster. Though you move slower, you also move more precisely, allowing you to do things like collect items easier. A good example on when to not focus is Cirno's opener, which you had a lot of trouble with: Rather than try and dodge the attack she fires directly (which is difficult even for an experienced player), unfocus and move out of the way entirely. Speaking of, this leads me to my next point.

Learn how each attack works

Though it may be hard to believe, Touhou is a lot more orderly than you think. Very few attacks are completely random and up to reflexes; the vast majority of them have some aspect of them that can be manipulated in your favor or learned to ease the difficulty. I realize this is not something to be expected of a beginner player, but it helps to keep in mind that learning how a part works is key to doing it well.

Get off the bottom of the screen

It's true, the olden shmups of yore had you limited to the bottom of the screen and restricted to horizontal movement. However, Touhou gives you complete freedom to move around the screen, and it is necessary to capitalize on it. When a boss drops their power items, move up to catch them, rather than wait for them to fall (which by then the next attack is already underway). By stage 4 using the entire lower half of the screen becomes invaluable to dodging attacks, so it's best to learn now.

Hope that wasn't too big a mouthful. ;^_^

[Urutsune]

Yeah Imma have to disagree with this.  EoSD was the first Touhou I picked up and following some other's advice I started with Normal, not easy.  Yeah it was harder than hell but I got better a lot faster and now I've 1cced EoSD in the course of about 3-4 months.  I makes playing the others a lot more fun to start on Normal and not work through easy only to get raped on normal.

Well that can have some truth in it but then again I think that can depend on many things could it work or not, like example what is your start skill level. Some people beat the first two stage on first try while some looses all of his lives when it reaches half of the first stage. Someone who is manage to get anywhere on normal I do believe that person can get better with normal mode. But someone who can't get anywhere on it I doubt the person could get better from not be able to do anything. It is a fact after time your skill can stuck onto a correct level and hardly will increase, on those moments when you need to increase difficulty. Some people need to start it on lowest, some can do it on higher. This is the way... by my humble opinion atleast.

[Schezo]

Well that can have some truth in it but then again I think that can depend on many things could it work or not, like example what is your start skill level. Some people beat the first two stage on first try while some looses all of his lives when it reaches half of the first stage. Someone who is manage to get anywhere on normal I do believe that person can get better with normal mode. But someone who can't get anywhere on it I doubt the person could get better from not be able to do anything. It is a fact after time your skill can stuck onto a correct level and hardly will increase, on those moments when you need to increase difficulty. Some people need to start it on lowest, some can do it on higher. This is the way... by my humble opinion atleast.

Well to kinda blow that out of the water, I never played any Danmaku curtain fire games before I tried EoSD; I heard it was good so I got it.  I started the game and yes, I in fact game overed on Rumia with max lifes set the first 7 times I tried it.  I sucked terribly and just played and gradually got better with time.

[Sir Namington]

When I first started playing, I couldn't even beat PCB with five starting lives and ALL continues. Now I can 1cc it on normal with five extra lives remaining. I had 20 to 30 hours on the game clock when I first 1cc'd it (not counting the time I had on the score.dat I lost,) and now I've put 75 hours into the game. I think just about anyone can do it with practice. I can't speak for anything beyond normal mode though.

[Zengeku]

If you ignore the fact that the stages are entirely about memorization. :derp:

I think its pretty safe to say that i can count Touhou stages that aren't either trivial or about memorization on one hand. Its not that bad though if the pace is good. And as far as EoSD is concerned only Stage 4 is dragging.

[Naut]

I think its pretty safe to say that i can count Touhou stages that aren't either trivial or about memorization on one hand. Its not that bad though if the pace is good. And as far as EoSD is concerned only Stage 4 is dragging.

I'm translating "either trivial or about memorization" as "either I can beat it or I can't," since that makes a lot more sense in this context.

[三重階乗]

@Donut:

I figured I was forgetting something concerning the first tip. Though I was generally trying to move fast so I could get enough power to beat midboss Rumia and Daiyousei before they time out and I don't get a drop from them.

I already knew that a truly random part in an attack was a rarity, as it often adds the potential for complete undodgability on Lunatic.

I stayed on the bottom because I always felt that being higher than certain point no more than halfway up the screen was suicide unless I obviously have to stay in the middle for an attack. I also fear that if I go for the point items that a boss drops, they'll start their next attack before I can get back down. I would have never realized that I was crippling myself by thinking this way if I had kept this to myself. I owe you my fandom for this, Donut :blush:

Of course, I have to start applying these and kick the habits I had developed or else this is just pointless blabbing.

[nintendonut888]

I stayed on the bottom because I always felt that being higher than certain point no more than halfway up the screen was suicide unless I obviously have to stay in the middle for an attack. I also fear that if I go for the point items that a boss drops, they'll start their next attack before I can get back down. I would have never realized that I was crippling myself by thinking this way if I had kept this to myself. I owe you my fandom for this, Donut

Heh, don't thank me for such a minor point. In an ideal run, you will be reaching max power by the end of stage 2 anyway, after which you gain the ability to use the point of collection. If you don't know about that, once you reach max power you can collect all items on screen by passing a certain vertical point on the screen (it's about 80% up the screen). However, it is crippling yourself to stay at the bottom, so I'm glad you got that. Just keep trying.

[Drake]

Well that can have some truth in it but then again I think that can depend on many things could it work or not, like example what is your start skill level. Some people beat the first two stage on first try while some looses all of his lives when it reaches half of the first stage. Someone who is manage to get anywhere on normal I do believe that person can get better with normal mode. But someone who can't get anywhere on it I doubt the person could get better from not be able to do anything. It is a fact after time your skill can stuck onto a correct level and hardly will increase, on those moments when you need to increase difficulty. Some people need to start it on lowest, some can do it on higher. This is the way... by my humble opinion atleast.

No, sorry, but this is plain wrong. Starting the game on higher difficulties is proven to be a very effective method of improvement. The main factor that keeps people from getting better with this is that they don't try at that difficulty. If you take death as an inevitability and refuse to try to get past whatever obstacle in your way, you lose. That's it. You have to actually seriously play the game as if you were intending to win it, and you should be emptying your continues just to keep going as far as you can. If you don't take practice seriously, you don't take your playing seriously and you will never get better; and that goes for any difficulty. Playing seriously on higher difficulties will help your bombing reflex, dodging reflex, focus movement, screen movement, streaming, all that. Just because you don't "play at that level" doesn't mean it won't make you better; that would be your own fault. Another factor? People play a few rounds on Lunatic and except to be instantly better on lower difficulties. This kind of mentality is coupled fiercely with the other one, as it displays that you aren't taking yourself seriously. Same with any difficulty, practice does not constitute a few runs; it takes considerable effort and fortitude to get better at anything.

[Sapz]

No, sorry, but this is plain wrong. Starting the game on higher difficulties is proven to be a very effective method of improvement. The main factor that keeps people from getting better with this is that they don't try at that difficulty. If you take death as an inevitability and refuse to try to get past whatever obstacle in your way, you lose. That's it. You have to actually seriously play the game as if you were intending to win it, and you should be emptying your continues just to keep going as far as you can. If you don't take practice seriously, you don't take your playing seriously and you will never get better; and that goes for any difficulty. Playing seriously on higher difficulties will help your bombing reflex, dodging reflex, focus movement, screen movement, streaming, all that. Just because you don't "play at that level" doesn't mean it won't make you better; that would be your own fault. Another factor? People play a few rounds on Lunatic and except to be instantly better on lower difficulties. This kind of mentality is coupled fiercely with the other one, as it displays that you aren't taking yourself seriously. Same with any difficulty, practice does not constitute a few runs; it takes considerable effort and fortitude to get better at anything.

Seconding this very, very hard; pretty much every time I've noticed significant improvement in my playing, it was because I challenged something I found almost impossibly difficult until I either beat it or at least got somewhat competent at it. After going back to easier things, you'll be able to clear them pretty much effortlessly if they're trivial compared to what you've been practicing.