Author Topic: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory  (Read 30036 times)

三重階乗

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  • Who is this "Dragon," anyway?
Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2010, 05:26:51 PM »
What mainly bothers me with this thread is that people imply there is more than one dragon, despite the fact the Perfect Memento article only refers to the Dragon. Singular, not plural. All other race articles refer to their race in plural. It's even called the highest order of god, not gods, in Perfect Memento. It pretty much sounds like the article is talking about a single being, not several.

I'm sure most can agree that Meiling isn't a native-born Gensokyan, or at least makes herself out that way. This would probably remove Meiling from that mix being a foreigner who probably moved in well after the Hakurei Barrier was put up. At the same time it'd be difficult for characters in-universe to suspect a foreigner of being something besides just that, much less their own highest God. I think I can safely say if Meiling is The Dragon and just acting this, (s)he is doing a damn good job at it unlike the "Hermit" Kasen Ibara.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2010, 05:58:50 AM »
It's funny that you would say we shouldn't read too much into the game creator himself saying this character "is by no means a special character", but that we can read into his absolute silence on her "bigger role" to possibly mean that she is, in fact, special.

Once again, you insist on taking things out of context and claiming that people said something when they never did.

Where in this thread did ANYONE ever say that ZUN's "absolute silence on her "bigger role" possibly meant that she is, in fact, special?"  Stop pretending that people said something just so you can prove you're right while this make-believe straw person who doesn't actually exist is wrong.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 06:00:50 AM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2010, 08:53:45 AM »
Once again, you insist on taking things out of context and claiming that people said something when they never did.

Where in this thread did ANYONE ever say that ZUN's "absolute silence on her "bigger role" possibly meant that she is, in fact, special?"  Stop pretending that people said something just so you can prove you're right while this make-believe straw person who doesn't actually exist is wrong.

OK, first of all, I think you really need to dial it down a notch and stop getting so defensive.

Second of all, here, let me show you:

You said:

Is there anyone here who's a native speaker of Japanese?  I'm not going to put much weight into "Hong Meiling is by no means a special character" until I've actually made certain what the CONTEXT of that line is in the original Japanese.  "not a special character" can mean something completely different in its native language compared to what an English speaker reading a second-hand translation might be interpreting it as.  For all we know, maybe ZUN just simply meant that she wasn't particularly important to EoSD's plot itself (something that the rest of the sentence "but she is the first one that mentions the mistress" seems to imply), not that she wouldn't have a bigger role in the future.  It's not wise to try to read into it too much until we know for sure what the actual context of the sentence is in the original Japanese.

Here, you very clearly say "it's not wise to read too much into" ZUN saying that "Hong Meiling is by no means a special character". At the same time, you also say "For all we know, maybe ZUN just simply meant that she wasn't particularly important to EoSD's plot itself ... not that she wouldn't have a bigger role in the future" - when ZUN has never said she does or would have a bigger role in the future. He has been absolutely silent on the subject, in other words, and yet you say that we can consider her "bigger role" a possibility.

Is that clearer now? You are saying we shouldn't make too much out of what he did say, while at the same time we should totally consider a possibility which he has never so much as hinted at. I'm honestly surprised you don't see this yourself.

I also don't understand why you need to fly off the handle and accuse people of strawmanning just because your notions are being challenged. Especially you, considering you made that awesome Yukari/Maribel thread. You know I've used that thread as an example of what I love about TARC? It was the first thread I bookmarked here. You have proven in the past that you're totally capable of delving into speculation and hashing out the flaws and holes in your position, revising your theories along the way. Why you're reacting like this now confuses me, because I know for a fact that you're capable of being better than this.

In any event, I hope there are no hard feelings here.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 09:00:54 AM by Amaterasu »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

KrackoCloud

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2010, 06:39:35 PM »
I'm sure someone's already pointed out Meiling's character profile.
A "Chinese-looking youkai." Sure, one could say she's still a dragon, but the fact that the adjective "Chinese-looking" is there implies that is best (or at least a very good) description, leaving little room for any addition.

"By no means a special character." You could say it only means she's not special within the EoSD plot, but I think that's stretching things a little.
Building off that, you could also argue ZUN never explicitly states she's not a dragon.
But this is about as explicit as it will ever get, unless he says something in an interview. If Meiling isn't a dragon, do you really think he would go out of his way to say "she's not a dragon" in a profile?


Personally, I don't think ZUN's "silence" has much value.
Look at some various character profiles. ZUN lists hobbies, personality, relationships, backstories, and roles with surprisingly great detail. ZUN shouldn't keep something like dragon-Meiling to himself. Saying that makes him out to be some guy who tries to be sneaky and clever with his fans. If he wants us to know, he'd tell us. If he hides it, that's... Probably because it was never true.

And if you insist the evidence still leaves some room for the dragon-Meiling theory... You're right. But for me, the possibility is, at least currently, just too low.
Hoping these arguments haven't already been pointed out countless times.