Labyrinth of Touhou 5F

[Ghaleon]

Anybody find some characters are NOT as good as they hoped after using them?
I'm slightly disappointed with kanako. Her sp is low, her spells are expensive, and even when the enemy is weak to cold, suiga hits for the same amount as a megawatt/croaking frog/koi3s.

Granted she's much Beefier, but as I said, that's when she's exploiting a weakness. She's not bad by any means, but given bow I prefer to play defensively I figure I'd love having her in my party.

Her low delay nuke is a bit of a joke too, even if the enemy is weak to spirit, it's piercing is quite poor, so it still hits for crap. I got bigger numbers with a defense build aya on my first playthru.

I also was doing some number crunching. Top tier dps isn't actually megawatt (or starbrow break) it's actually croaking frog. That doesn't factor level up rate, but the formula with atk growth made it about 15% stronger iirc. Bear in mind it has a lower delay too. I'm honestly not sure if nature is more desirable than non-element. But I'm pretty sure every element has more situations where enemies resist it than those where they are weak to it.

[Garlyle]

It was an established fact around here that Rumia's a decent character

Took a while to get this way.  In all honesty, I think everyone's been established as decent in their own right.

Anybody find some characters are NOT as good as they hoped after using them?

Yuyuko.  I tried.  I really tried.  I just can't anymore.  She's too slow and her enemy-delaying spells and DTH just don't make up for it.

Also Eirin.  Eirin.  Can't-help-me Eirin.  She doesn't have the power I was hoping for unless you put her full-MAG, it seems, and then you lose out on her defenses, which are questionable in use because of the fact that Hourai Elixir is sloooow and comes with some unforseen drawbacks.l

Remilia.  It seems like trying to hybrid her for attack and defense just... doesn't produce anything stellar enough for me to consider.

And finally Mystia.  But I haven't begun climbing through 21F yet, so she might prove herself yet once I get back into regular floor trash and not minibosstrash / single-target boss fightan.

[trancehime]

Remilia is a typical Jeigan. If you want to make her viable later on, you need to pump everything, because her stats scale extremely badly and even with her Vlad Tepes Curse, her damage just doesn't compare to some of the other more offensive characters who don't even require buffs. For middle game usage, just focus more on her offense. Despite a high growth, her STR base was gimped a lot so you have to make up for that deficiency. At least, her durability isn't total ass. She's by no means stellar, but she's definitely not at all bad. Solid at best, above average at worst. She's sorely limited by her gimped STR base and her other stats having mediocre or above average growths. That doesn't mean she sucks though because she's very much awesome for early game usage.

Eirin's a weird case. Hourai Elixir is special, and Mercury Sea and Omoikane Device pack very... uh, slight debuffs that don't really work all that well. Not to mention all of her skills take a ridiculous amount of delay and are slow as fuck. I actually got a lot of mileage out of Eirin building her as a tank character. Her defensive growths are above average but when twinked it's possible to make use of Mercury Sea. While all of Eirin's attacks don't have very good multipliers, and Galaxy in a Jar is horrendously slow and weak for a single target nuke, she works as an off tank and at least Omoikane Device can... assist in whittling down defenses. I can see why you're disappointed though!! Eirin is decidedly average this time around.

Mystia is extremely solid, actually. If you look at her stats, she's very underwhelming at first glance... Then you look at her skillset, and her speed coupled with an above average offense (10 SPD / 10 STR, also 6 in both defenses), she can develop into a real powerhouse. Dive is quite fast to come out and isn't complete shit  on the formula. Dark Dance has a weaker poison effect than Wriggle, but also has a 70 count PAR effect tacked on to it. Chorus Master has a 20 count PAR effect but is non-elemental, in case the opponent has a NTR resistance. Finally Mysterious Song can be used in a pinch, though I reckon you won't need to use it a lot unless you're being bombarded by bad status and debuffs. Haha.

[Bananamatic]

Remilia.  It seems like trying to hybrid her for attack and defense just... doesn't produce anything stellar enough for me to consider.

:getdown:

[Garlyle]

:getdown:

I'm not sure whether to interpret this as "I could've told you that", "Finally someone agrees with me", "Twink harder you dumbass" or simply " :getdown: "

EDIT: Why are Flandre v2/Orin v2 such ridiculous bullcrap?

[Bananamatic]

I'm not sure whether to interpret this as "I could've told you that", "Finally someone agrees with me", "Twink harder you dumbass" or simply " :getdown: "

lol remilia

[Ghaleon]

Yeah, yuyu was a letdown form me too. I thought her bar aging abilities would be good because of how unique it is, but it is just too slow for how little it did. Given how it nearly always hit for 0, I don't see how lowering the enemy bar by about 30% every third move makes up for having  1 less otherwise useless party member.

Her big nukes super formula made it do respectable damage, but still no better than a pure nuke's nuke. Despite it's absurd sp cost.
To make matters worse, instant dth didn't even help for trash as much as I thought it would.

Eirin looks like she may be a tank to me. But a healer or a nuke she is not. Thing is, china is just too damn good attacking to really make me consider anybody else.

I frequently get alot of use outta remi.
It's true that I pour more skillpoints into her than most. But that's only because her ATK,  hp, def, spd, and mnd are all above average. I pretty much always invest skillpoints into each characters "high" stats pretty equally, unless I don't use it (like patchy's sp, or ran's mag, though I put some into fans mag for trash).

I actually have better offensive gear on suwako and nitori than I do remi on my video, but if I wasn't kaggy buffing them, I think you'd see her dps fairly comparable. She always provides a significant portion of my damage to boss fights because there is no element to her attacks.

I still never used her much with renko's or iku though, I recon that would make her less useful. Seems like everyone likes remi except on motk *shrugs*

[Serela]

Kanako is very disappointing, yeah. Her MND is equal to that of people like Maribel, who are not known for good MND, and her DEF isn't really any more exciting. Her HP is fairly low, so she really can't go in the front row to use her DEF anyway. And then her damage is fairly ehh. My Remi does more damage against Yuuka then Kanako's Suiga does, and Yuuka is weak to CLD! ...I got out my 2nd playthrough save to check this, and this isn't a party I really think is good anymore

Remi is jeigan, yeah, she doesn't scale into Plus as well. An ATK-based Remi will do nice damage still, especially considering good spd/delay, and ATK-based will still hold the 2nd slot great, or at least be quite good for 3rd. She isn't really awesome or anything, though. A DEF-Based Remi would probably be kinda disappointing in all aspects instead of okay damage+okay tanking.

You do have to keep in mind that damage scales differently in Plus. For example, Meiling will actually deal nice damage with Mountain Breaker. Enough to want to use it when there's absolutely nothing she needs to do. 80k when your other attackers do 200~300k isn't bad for a tank if they have nothing else to do. Besides, you need to buff her ATK for her heals. In the same way, Eirin's damage will improve in usefulness for Plus (Although it'll still suck unless it's a MAG-Eirin which isn't a good idea IMO)

Yuyuko, she's good once she has SP to spam SFN. Don't use her before that. Seriously. Even then, she'll be useless for Serpent of Chaos and Shikieiki; but other then that, she should be great once she has that SP. Someone you could consider getting after beating SoC; her MND/HP is pretty nice for a nuker. But yeah, the fact that she'll be useless on SoC really hurts her even once she has the SP to spam her nuke. And she's no good at all without SFN spam.


I'm wondering if I should use Renko or Iku or Keine or simply only Ran, for my offensive buffs this game... Ran would really only be "okay I'll boost your damage slightly... after using like 400 SP and several turns..." because god that's some slow buffing. It's very good, yes, but I'd really like a faster alternative.

Or I could use only Ran, but think about getting self-buffers like maybe Maribel (because I like her but she's really kind of... well, as the wiki says, an Extra Effort character. She's just a little behind other damage characters, but not by much, and can buff her own DEF/MND/SPD too, so.)

[RainfallYoshi]

From the bit of messing around I did with NG+ files, I'd say Keine is actually a pretty good buffer. Her and Ran are the only people to get multi-target buffing and it can be incredibly useful if you use it right.

As for characters that I wanted to be awesome but weren't, probably Sanae. Anytime I tried to use her she just seemed to flail around and die to a breeze, her spells were expensive at the time, and I couldn't seem to do much with her. Minoriko will forever and always be my healer of choice.

[Serela]

Her and Ran are the only people to get multi-target [offensive] buffing

renko

Thing about Keine is she only does one at a time. Ran does it slowly and with high SP cost. Renko does all 4 offensive/defense stats +75%, but with a fairly small amount of damage and halved active gauge at the same time. Hmm.

[RainfallYoshi]

By the time you get Renko, you really don't want to be reducing your active gauges in any battle. That's liable to kill you, especially in a boss fight.

[Serela]

By the time you get Renko, you really don't want to be reducing your active gauges in any battle. That's liable to kill you, especially in a boss fight.

You're really overestimating how bad a halved action gauge is and it helps that you'll have at least +75% Def/Mnd because of the buff. I've personally used Renko and it's not really that bad in Plus Disk. It's still a downside of course, but it's not like "oh god I'm in danger of losing people if I use it"

[Esoterica]

Yuyuko.  I tried.  I really tried.  I just can't anymore.  She's too slow and her enemy-delaying spells and DTH just don't make up for it.

Also Eirin.  Eirin.  Can't-help-me Eirin.  She doesn't have the power I was hoping for unless you put her full-MAG, it seems, and then you lose out on her defenses, which are questionable in use because of the fact that Hourai Elixir is sloooow and comes with some unforseen drawbacks.l

Remilia.  It seems like trying to hybrid her for attack and defense just... doesn't produce anything stellar enough for me to consider.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.  Mostly.

Marisa.  I've never seen Master Spark do enough damage to make it worth having a character in the party that can only attack once.  Her other spells aren't anything special, though decent for clearing trash.

Mokou.  Honestly, I expected her to hit at least decently well, but she suffers from Yuyuko Syndrome when it comes to her attacks; the last one's the only one that ever impresses me.  Those damage formulas are just...bad.  I still use her since her durability's great for the damage output Fujiwara Volcano provides, but it'd be nice if her other attacks did something useful too.

Also, I agree on Keine being really underestimated.  A 48% party-wide buff for an offensive stat is the largest you'll get without Charge, and she can back up Reimu and Yukari for  defensive buffs against bosses that target DEF.  Her attacks aren't half-bad either, and her durability's nice too.

[Serela]

Mokou.  Honestly, I expected her to hit at least decently well, but she suffers from Yuyuko Syndrome when it comes to her attacks; the last one's the only one that ever impresses me.  Those damage formulas are just...bad.  I still use her since her durability's great for the damage output Fujiwara Volcano provides, but it'd be nice if her other attacks did something useful too.

Her durability... really isn't even that special. Tons of people who can do better damage have much better MND (For example, Yuyuko, who has great MND and a much better nuke). Her DEF isn't really used much since she'll usually probably be in the back. Alice has a good FIR nuke and the same DEF, for that matter; and Alice has much better MND and many other uses too. Although her damage kinda falls behind, but Mokou's does too so when comparing them... yeah.

And about "Yuyuko Syndrome", well, Yuyuko is great once you have the SP to spam SFN. Yuyuko has the best MND out of the good nuking characters. Her problem of only having SPI attacks still hurts though, since bosses like Shikieiki and Serpent of Chaos will render her useless. Mokou doesn't really get much better when you can spam Fujiwara Volcano, because she's still behind in damage.

DEF-based Yukari is looking quite promising. She'll be a much better 2nd-slot tank then Remi, and maybe even still take over first slot on MAG-based bosses. Still deciding whether to use Iku, Keine, or Renko... hmm... well, I've got time to decide.

[Esoterica]

Still deciding whether to use Iku, Keine, or Renko... hmm... well, I've got time to decide.

Iku if you're using Reimu or Yukari in conjunction with nukers that'll have high PAR resist, Keine otherwise.

[NLTM]

So I kind of beat 7F boss without really realizing what I was doing :v

Now to stumble around 8F until something happens.

[Pesco]

Careful around the event icons or else you'll get wiped by Suwako before you're ready

[Esoterica]

Careful around the event icons or else you'll get wiped by Suwako before you're ready

She's not that hard.  I didn't have to do any grinding post-Tam's Foe to beat her.

[Parallaxal]

Characters that I've been somewhat disappointed with?

Utsuho. I've actually used her extensively on one playthrough, and while she's not bad, she wasn't as good as I had hoped. Uncontained Nuclear Reaction does OK damage, and the buff is great, but it makes her so fragile that I really want to switch her out afterwards. However, the 50% post-usage guage tempts me to leave her in. It doesn't do nearly enough damage to justify switching her in and out like other heavy nukers anyway. Without her self-buff, her other spells don't do fantastic damage, and her self-buff itself takes several uses to reach the same levels that are provided by Iku or even Maribel, who only need a single turn.

[trancehime]

By the time you get Renko, you really don't want to be reducing your active gauges in any battle. That's liable to kill you, especially in a boss fight.

I think lots of people here are severely underestimating and needlessly hating on Renko's charge. I can definitely understand where it comes from, though. Active gauge is gimped and Renko hurts herself in the process. I mean, it's not like you're ever going to raise Renko's offensive stats anyway since the only time you want to use Galaxy Stop, which is like the only damaging attack you ever want to have her use, it's for the PAR and not for the damage. >_> Anyway, her shtick is Debilitate in any case. Yes Charge can be dangerous but sweet Jesus I trust you all have the /judgment/ to know when to properly use it. That or you can tank everything ever like I can :derp:

Re: Yuyuko Syndrome
Twink harder

[AlexX Unlimited]

Reisen is one of my favorite characters from the series, but hear uses are limited to specific boss fights. Against absolutely anything else she either has a laughably low damage output or the enemy is immune/highly resistant to stat debuffs (and random mobs will should die too fast to make use of them). To top it all off her self-buff, while good, doesn't help when her base stats are all some of the lowest I've seen. I'm sorta wondering if they thought she might be too overpowered and ended up overcompensating...

...Also, I'm experiencing Ghaleon's issue. My Sanae has higher DEF, MND, HP, and every single affinity than Minoriko has, and yet somehow she gets one-shot by things that Minoriko doesn't die from. Every single raw stat has been levelled to give Sanae a singificantly higher advantage, so how the crap does she die more easily?

...Oh, and on something mentioned earlier, Eirin indeed makes for a good tank. Before I dropped her for one of the spoiler characters she was a very effective 2nd slot tank to back up Tenshi/Meiling (usually Tenshi becuase I like her better). Her overhealing was especially useful to help survive the big stuff that I knew was coming (as well as for random stuff aimed at the first slot that pierced defenses).

[Axel Ryman]

I'm most likely wrong, but maybe there's a hidden "base" stat for many of the formulas. Its similar to this one game I played, where your damage was based on not just your strength/magic stat to your opponents defense/magic defense stat, but also the strength of your weapon vs defense of your opponents armor(depending where you attack), or the strength of the spell you're casting. For LoT, maybe every character has a preset set of stats with some stats being higher than others and higher than another characters. It could explain why someone like Tenshi can be a defensive wall while Chen is like glass and easily shattered.

[Esoterica]

Reisen is one of my favorite characters from the series, but hear uses are limited to specific boss fights. Against absolutely anything else she either has a laughably low damage output or the enemy is immune/highly resistant to stat debuffs (and random mobs will die too fast to make use of them). To top it all off her self-buff, while good, doesn't help when her base stats are all some of the lowest I've seen. I'm sorta wondering if they thought she might be too overpowered and ended up overcompensating...

...Also, I'm experiencing Ghaleon's issue. My Sanae has higher DEF, MND, HP, and every single affinity than Minoriko has, and yet somehow she gets one-shot by things that Minoriko doesn't die from. Every single raw stat has been levelled to give Sanae a singificantly higher advantage, so how the crap does she die more easily?

Though I don't use Reisen and am not really much of a fan of her outside of the fighting games, I found her perfectly fine for sweeping trash.  I haven't used her in boss fights yet, but Grand Patriot's Elixir and Discarder both seem like they'd make her great for that (and Parallaxal's videos support that as well, though I haven't seen a fight yet where she kept up with Orin or Nitori in damage).  And if you don't use Wriggle, there's Gas-Woven Orb for poison as well.

I'm going to have to admit I'm seeing the Sanae issue more often as well, and it confuses me to no end.  I haven't seen much use for single target healers with both Rumia and Reimu on the team, and Iku can provide much better offensive buffs with lower delay, so I haven't been using either of them lately.

For LoT, maybe every character has a preset set of stats with some stats being higher than others and higher than another characters. It could explain why someone like Tenshi can be a defensive wall while Chen is like glass and easily shattered.

I'm hoping I'm just misinterpreting you, because it's pretty obvious every character has different stats. :derp:

[AlexX Unlimited]

Though I don't use Reisen and am not really much of a fan of her outside of the fighting games, I found her perfectly fine for sweeping trash.

Trust me when I say I tried to use her as often as I possibly could... Her attacks have pretty poor damage formulas. Even Ran's attacks are better at enemy sweeping.

I haven't used her in boss fights yet, but Grand Patriot's Elixir and Discarder both seem like they'd make her great for that (and Parallaxal's videos support that as well, though I haven't seen a fight yet where she kept up with Orin or Nitori in damage).  And if you don't use Wriggle, there's Gas-Woven Orb for poison as well.

Since buffs raise stats by a precent how good Reisen can get is heavily based on how strong she is on her own. Because she has some of the worst stats in the game on her own, Grand Patriot's Elixer only succeeds in putting her on par with everyone else. To make her worth fighting with I'd have to eat up valuable turns to reuse it repeatedly.
Gas-Woven Orb is a highly "meh" poison skill at best. If I'm poisoning someone I'd be better off using someone dedicated to it, and Reisen has better moves to use as a form of attack.

Discarder is what I said... Random foes should not be living long enough for debuffs to matter, and against bosses only like two has it work on them... Everything else is either completely immune to it or highly resistant enough that only 1 or 2 of them all will take effect (and lets face it: one of them will be -EVA).

I'm going to have to admit I'm seeing the Sanae issue more often as well, and it confuses me to no end.  I haven't seen much use for single target healers with both Rumia and Reimu on the team, and Iku can provide much better offensive buffs with lower delay, so I haven't been using either of them lately.

Sanae is the only character I have that can buff speed outside Nitori's self-buff (which is also very useful). Furthermore, my primary tank is Tenshi, not Meiling, so I need the status cure (not to mention Sanae's magic is high enough that only 2 or 3 teammates can't be fully healed with one cast, so its not like she's a bad healer). As such, she's still an invaluable asset to me.

[Esoterica]

Trust me when I say I tried to use her as often as I possibly could... Her attacks have pretty poor damage formulas. Even Ran's attacks are better at enemy sweeping.
Since buffs raise stats by a precent how good Reisen can get is heavily based on how strong she is on her own. Because she has some of the worst stats in the game on her own, Grand Patriot's Elixer only succeeds in putting her on par with everyone else.

Discarder is what I said... Random foes should not be living long enough for debuffs to matter, and against bosses only like two has it work on them... Everything else is either completely immune to it or highly resistant enough that only 1 or 2 of them all will take effect (and lets face it: one of them will be -EVA).
Sanae is the only character I have that can buff speed outside Nitori's self-buff (which is also very useful). Furthermore, my primary tank is Tenshi, not Meiling, so I need the status cure (not to mention Sanae's magic is high enough that only 2 or 3 teammates can't be fully healed with one cast, so its not like she's a bad healer). As such, she's still an invaluable asset to me.

I know her formulas are bad, but they aren't that bad.  I use Mokou constantly, and her formulas for most of her attacks are pretty similar (Flying Phoenix is the same as Discarder, the multi-target attacks are all pretty similar sans Fujiwara Volcano) with rather similar MAG growths (if I remember that correctly).  The difference: Mokou has no self-buffs and her debuffs are limited to what's probably her worst attack, and debuff by such a small value they aren't really worth using.  Grand Patriot's Elixir buffs every stat by a good amount and has low delay; it doesn't take much to have her moving at double speed and hitting hard while debuffing like crazy, with good durability to boot.

And, uh...you don't have Sakuya or Aya on the team?  Really? :x  I have a hard time understanding how people can play without speed buffers, getting more turns in against bosses is an indispensable ability imo (until the later floors when everyone's speed is so high it hardly matters, but we aren't exactly talking about that right now :V)

[Axel Ryman]

I'm hoping I'm just misinterpreting you, because it's pretty obvious every character has different stats. :derp:

You are. I'm referring to a hidden base stat, not the actual Level 1 stats all characters have. I'll use Tenshi and Yuyuko to explain this.

At level 1, here's Tenshi and Yuyuko's Defense and Mind stats.

Tenshi
DEF: 61
MND: 61

Yuyuko:
DEF: 26
MND: 66

While a big number would probably be more accurate for this, I'll just use a smaller one, with 0 being the lowest and 10 being the biggest.

Since Tenshi's rating for her DEF and MND are listed as *(Being the best) and A respectively on the Wiki, her DEF is a 10 and her MND is a 9. Yuyuko however has a D and a *, so I'd say her base number would be 3 for DEF(Maybe a 4, I just feel like 4 would be more accurate) and her MND is a 10. Of course I'm using smaller numbers for simplicity, but if it were larger, then it would be much more diverse.


Now let's apply the hidden stat into real play.

Let's say both Tenshi and Yuyuko had 5000 defense and mind with the same Affinity numbers, no buffs, and hit with 3 attacks while in the same spot(2 different times obviously  :V).  The 1st attack targets Defense, the 2nd attack targets MND, and 3rd ignores DEF/MND. If my theory is true, Tenshi would take 0 damage for the 1st attack, 2nd would barely damage her, and the 3rd would damage her noticeably, while Yuyuko would take some damage from the 1st attack, 2nd wouldn't hurt her, and 3rd would deal a noticeable amount of damage like Tenshi.


This is mainly just a theory. I could try testing if i edit the actual stats/affinities of characters. Only other thing I could think of is bullshit from the RNG. :V

[Serela]

Yeah I'm pretty positive such a hidden stat doesn't exist. Especially considering they have an on-site wiki and even released a complete database for everything with Special Disk, we would have known by now.

It could explain why someone like Tenshi can be a defensive wall while Chen is like glass and easily shattered.

I also think this is a REALLY weird example for reasoning. Tenshi is a defensive wall because she has great DEF/MND growth and nice leveling rate, with a wonderful 100% DEF/MND buff. Chen, on the other hand, has shit for growths in pretty much every stat other then SPD and EVA, and of course she'll be easily shattered.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I know her formulas are bad, but they aren't that bad.  I use Mokou constantly, and her formulas for most of her attacks are pretty similar (Flying Phoenix is the same as Discarder, the multi-target attacks are all pretty similar sans Fujiwara Volcano) with rather similar MAG growths (if I remember that correctly).  The difference: Mokou has no self-buffs and her debuffs are limited to what's probably her worst attack, and debuff by such a small value they aren't really worth using.  Grand Patriot's Elixir buffs every stat by a good amount and has low delay; it doesn't take much to have her moving at double speed and hitting hard while debuffing like crazy, with good durability to boot.

No matter how much I buff Reisen Discarder always seemed to do 0 damage (except for one random time it did a surprising amount of damage to the 16F boss). I think Reisen is really just that weak.

And, uh...you don't have Sakuya or Aya on the team?  Really? :x  I have a hard time understanding how people can play without speed buffers, getting more turns in against bosses is an indispensable ability imo (until the later floors when everyone's speed is so high it hardly matters, but we aren't exactly talking about that right now :V)

When I first made my team people wouldn't shut up about how useless Sakuya was except for her speed buff, not to mention I'm not really a fan of her, so there wasn't much making me keep her on. I'm not using Aya because I'm using Chen, and it was pretty much agreed you should use one or the other.

Generally, my team maxes out buffs with Ran and tanks during enemy phase and attacks once the attack buffs are maxed. Admittedly a pretty slow way of doing it, but its my first playthrough, so I'm in no hurry.

EDIT: Of course, the fact I can no longer play since the game won't work on my new computer kinda renders it all moot... Kinda ironic I'm unable to play right after I reach the final boss.

[Ghaleon]

And, uh...you don't have Sakuya or Aya on the team?  Really? :x  I have a hard time understanding how people can play without speed buffers, getting more turns in against bosses is an indispensable ability imo (until the later floors when everyone's speed is so high it hardly matters, but we aren't exactly talking about that right now :V)

Neither did I...Until I tried it. Have you? I'd be pretty surprised if you actually did and were were like zomg it's unpossible!

[Esoterica]

I'm not using Aya because I'm using Chen, and it was pretty much agreed you should use one or the other.

What.

Neither did I...Until I tried it. Have you? I'd be pretty surprised if you actually did and were were like zomg it's unpossible!

I have and it works, but I'd rather have speed buffs in most cases.  Faster healers and buffers compensating for everyone having a glass cannon build is pretty useful, and I'm pretty sure speed buffs affect SP regen when switched out.