Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F  (Read 233699 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2010, 04:50:03 AM »
Somehow I managed to break the game by doing nothing but making a shortcut on my desktop for v3.01.  Well this sucks.

EDIT: Fixed it with a duplicate 3.01 .exe that I had laying around on my hard drive.  Still can't beat 18F for whatever reason, but merely adding 16F and Patchouli back on the team has improved progress significantly to the point where I can get him down halfway through his last elemental form.

I'll probably drop Mokou, Aya's actually hitting harder than she is in every phase of the fight except Water (and my Mokou doesn't have suitable CLD resistance yet).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 06:32:18 AM by Esoterica »

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2010, 08:06:04 AM »
Heh, I'm on 18f too, not at the boss yet, just slogging thru the extra bs trash.

That's one thing really bad about beating 16f boss early...The next 2 floor's trash is obscene. Oh hi, I go faster than any of your dudes except for Chen/Aya, but I have 65k hp and good defenses and great affinities and par immunity, and when I go, your entire party loses all their sp.. Here's my buddy, she casts arrow rain, and will 1hko all your casters, she'll go long before any of your good nukers can move too!

i got 3 lances of Gaios or wtf they are called from 17f. but not one star of elendil.. argh.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2010, 08:22:29 AM »
Team Unappreciated vs. the Flower Master of the Four Seasons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnPY4kJ1t_o

This was actually a pretty easy fight for the team, given how many of the damage dealers used Fire-based attacks. Just slap on a ton of Nature affinity gear to everyone that I expected to stay in, and we were all set to go.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2010, 06:16:23 PM »
Heh, I'm on 18f too, not at the boss yet, just slogging thru the extra bs trash.

That's one thing really bad about beating 16f boss early...The next 2 floor's trash is obscene. Oh hi, I go faster than any of your dudes except for Chen/Aya, but I have 65k hp and good defenses and great affinities and par immunity, and when I go, your entire party loses all their sp.. Here's my buddy, she casts arrow rain, and will 1hko all your casters, she'll go long before any of your good nukers can move too!

i got 3 lances of Gaios or wtf they are called from 17f. but not one star of elendil.. argh.
You're going to have to help me with that fight.  Stream it or something, I keep getting my ass kicked, and at Reimu lv98 that's just ridiculous.

Though like I said before, it's probably my team lineup that's screwing me over.  Switch out Sanae and Chen for 16F and Patch, and suddenly I can get about three times further in the fight than before even with Reimu dying on the first turn.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2010, 07:56:59 PM »
You're going to have to help me with that fight.  Stream it or something, I keep getting my ass kicked, and at Reimu lv98 that's just ridiculous.

Though like I said before, it's probably my team lineup that's screwing me over.  Switch out Sanae and Chen for 16F and Patch, and suddenly I can get about three times further in the fight than before even with Reimu dying on the first turn.

me? I'm pretty slow, I probably wont be at the boss until after you've already beat him up. But I guess I can fraps it or something.

I don't know if I'll be much lower level though, I'm at Reimu 90 atm still exploring that floor (though I've covered like 5/6ths of the map, the last bit takes awhile longer IIRC.

Plus I might stink anyway, the thing is this playthru I have a party setup pretty unlike what I normally have. I have a buncha glass cannons basically, and I'm speccing offense instead of defense for once just so I can compare them. I also have Remi in Patchy in there as always, also specced for offense just so that I can compare the other glass cannons with 2 characters I'm already very familiar with.

This playthru patchy seems pretty bad, I think I ;prefer her focused on mnd instead of mag. Her damage is only slightly less, and she doesn't take 0 from absolutely everything that isn't pure physical >=(. Anyway, I'm not sure if a buncha glass cannons is exactly the ideal party for 18f. But if I can make it past the first phase clean, hopefully the rest should be simple, because I really got the elements covered (except wind).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2010, 07:58:28 PM »
me? I'm pretty slow, I probably wont be at the boss until after you've already beat him up. But I guess I can fraps it or something.

I don't know if I'll be much lower level though, I'm at Reimu 90 atm still exploring that floor (though I've covered like 5/6ths of the map, the last bit takes awhile longer IIRC.

Plus I might stink anyway, the thing is this playthru I have a party setup pretty unlike what I normally have. I have a buncha glass cannons basically, and I'm speccing offense instead of defense for once just so I can compare them. I also have Remi in Patchy in there as always, also specced for offense just so that I can compare the other glass cannons with 2 characters I'm already very familiar with.

This playthru patchy seems pretty bad, I think I ;prefer her focused on mnd instead of mag. Her damage is only slightly less, and she doesn't take 0 from absolutely everything that isn't pure physical >=(. Anyway, I'm not sure if a buncha glass cannons is exactly the ideal party for 18f. But if I can make it past the first phase clean, hopefully the rest should be simple, because I really got the elements covered (except wind).
Perfect, you have the same type of team as me too. :V

Glass cannon sucks, I'm definitely going for defensive builds next playthrough.

NLTM

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2010, 09:48:32 PM »
7F Boss. Cannot do.  :colonveeplusalpha:

Is the only thing I can do just grind until Remi, Yuugi, and Meiling can take more than one Hellfire? usually I just throw Wriggle in at the end for lack of a better tank and because Wriggle is useless now that Yuugi can cause poison as well, so she can die without anything bad happening, but while I'm nuking with Chen, Marisa, and Patchy I can't tell when another Hellfire is coming to wipe everyone that isn't a tank. :ohdear:

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2010, 10:01:48 PM »
You're going to have to help me with that fight.  Stream it or something, I keep getting my ass kicked, and at Reimu lv98 that's just ridiculous.
Actually, that's about right.  Reimu 98 is the point at which it is fairly possible to beat it if you're fighting him right (You really have to know what you're getting into); most people don't take him on for another ten levels or so though.  If you want to take him on at that level, you need to burn through his first phase ASAP, and then use the right nukes to get through every form but Fire.  Use the Fire form as your chance to rest, recover, and rebuff, because it is by far the least threatening of every form.  He will eventually formshift on his own again without you destroying it, and then eventually return to Fire.  Only destroy it once you're ready to go into the final one.

7F Boss. Cannot do.  :colonveeplusalpha:

Is the only thing I can do just grind until Remi, Yuugi, and Meiling can take more than one Hellfire? usually I just throw Wriggle in at the end for lack of a better tank and because Wriggle is useless now that Yuugi can cause poison as well, so she can die without anything bad happening, but while I'm nuking with Chen, Marisa, and Patchy I can't tell when another Hellfire is coming to wipe everyone that isn't a tank. :ohdear:
Watch the boss' attack pattern.  It goes Hellfire -> Attack -> Attack -> Attack -> Hellfire.
However, if you have an empty spot, and the RNG gets it to attack a blank spot, it'll simply skip that and move onto the next command in order, so if you don't keep your party full during its attacks it might use another Hellfire sooner.

Right after Hellfire, swap in a healer (Minoriko is preferrable here) and start recharging tanks in slot one and two, and start wailing on him with 1-3.  When turn four starts approaching, swap out anyone who'll be killed (Even if it means having an empty slot for a moment).  If you took that space to throw up a defensive buff or two via Reimu, it should do even less damage this time.

Also, it's got roughly a 25% chance to be PAR'd and a 40% chance to be hit with any debuff.  Cirno might be good to try spamming Icicle Fall between its Hellfires, because if she lands her SPD Down even once you'll have a huge amount more time to wail on it.

Rikter

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2010, 10:55:49 PM »
7F boss was also the first Grind wall I ran into. Have you fought Nitori on 7F for her drop yet?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2010, 10:56:47 PM »
and because Wriggle is useless now that Yuugi can cause poison as well
Uh, no.  Yuugi's poison is extremely weak.  If you expect anything significant out of poison, Wriggle's is the way to go.

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2010, 11:13:45 PM »
Uh, no.  Yuugi's poison is extremely weak.  If you expect anything significant out of poison, Wriggle's is the way to go.
Also this.

Poison damage is based on three things: The PSN value on the attack, the target's poison resistance, and the user's level.  Wriggle has both an awesomely fast levelling speed and the poison effects on even the weaker of her attacks are significantly stronger than any other character's poison (Comet on Earth is very close to double as strong as that of any other character)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2010, 11:38:32 PM »
Just curious, who's the runner-up for poison potency?  Rin?

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2010, 11:43:06 PM »
Whee!

I actually had a fairly easy time with the Eintei trio. Bosses are a lot of fun when you actually have an idea of what you're doing.

I lead out with Meiling, Iku, Minoriko, and Patchy. I had Iku use two Sticklebacks on Patchy first as Minoriko threw out buffs. Iku died from a Galaxy and I put in Reimu to spam Hakurei Barrier. Everyone tanked for awhile as Patchy threw out incredibly potent Royal Flares. My defenses started to wear down after awhile and I got a bit worried as Reisen and Kaguya both focused at the same time. I had Reimu throw out some PAR on Eirin and Reisen and nuked Kaguya dead. Eirin managed to get a Hourai Elixir on Reisen before I nuked her dead as well. Reisen never got another turn as I PAR locked her with REIMU and nuked her dead.

Fun tiems.

I have a new party now that the horrible Iron Maze is done too.

Yuugi
Komachi
Marisa
Aya
Meiling
Patchouli
Iku
Reimu
Minoriko
Reisen
Nitori
Wriggle

Woohoo for progress!


NLTM

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2010, 11:44:24 PM »
Also this.

Poison damage is based on three things: The PSN value on the attack, the target's poison resistance, and the user's level.  Wriggle has both an awesomely fast levelling speed and the poison effects on even the weaker of her attacks are significantly stronger than any other character's poison (Comet on Earth is very close to double as strong as that of any other character)

... Oh.

I thought Poison was Poison and that was that.  :V

EDIT: Also should I be using Iku more? I kind of left her aside after getting her because I couldn't really choose who on my party to leave out. Does she help at all during a battle like this?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 11:46:56 PM by NLTM »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2010, 11:53:51 PM »
... Oh.

I thought Poison was Poison and that was that.  :V

EDIT: Also should I be using Iku more? I kind of left her aside after getting her because I couldn't really choose who on my party to leave out. Does she help at all during a battle like this?
Iku's great for boss fights because of her 72% attack buff, -50% defense debuff, and good durability (particularly MND).  I used her a lot for a large portion of the game.  Have her buff up Patchy or some other high-power nuke and watch them tear into the boss.

On that note, healing spells work off of MAG, so buffing Minoriko or Reimu will pretty much guarantee they'll heal everyone for their full health bar (though that's not necessary if they already do).

NLTM

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2010, 11:56:17 PM »
With the KNOWLEDGE by my side I'm trying again.

If I lose, I might as well get to grindan.

EDIT: Grindan.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 12:02:46 AM by NLTM »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2010, 11:58:28 PM »
7F Boss. Cannot do.  :colonveeplusalpha:
Adding to what Garlyle said, raising your FIR affinity always helps for the Foe bosses. Give your tanks a few Bomb Rings (or, even better, LOVE Machines, though I'm not sure if you can get those by floor 7) and some skill levels in FIR affinity, and watch as the damage done by Flowing Hellfire is reduced by quite a bit.

In other news, I decided to do 13F the not-so-cheap way and didn't look it up on the wiki, unlike in my first playthrough. Needless to say, that took a while.

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2010, 12:16:18 AM »
Just curious, who's the runner-up for poison potency?  Rin?
Poison users, with their levelling rate (Lower is better here as it means they need less EXP ler level)

Wriggle (EXP per level rate: 94) - Comet on Earth (120), Firefly Phenomenon (90)
Yuugi (EXP per level rate: 115) - Irremovable Shackles (60) (For those paying attention: The database says it's PSN-60 and PAR-30, which is the opposite of what it currently says on the wiki o.o)
Komachi (EXP per level rate: 120) - Narrow Confines of Avici (45)
Reisen (EXP per level rate: 108) - Gas-Woven Orb (60)
Orin (EXP per level rate: 106) - Vengeful Cannibal Spirit (45)
Mystia (EXP per level rate: 85) - Poisonous Moth's Dark Dance (70)

Huh, I swore there were people with lower PSN rates.  Anyway though, the way Poison's damage formula works, being a "Gradual over time, reducing as it goes" type of thing, inflicting a stronger poison adds up to significantly more damage than a weaker one.  Wriggle is notably the best for dealing poison damage because of her second-best levelling speed of any of them, plus having nearly twice the power for those moves - each of the other choices brings something else to the table that they can do instead though, even if they can't match Wriggle for poison damage (Yuugi, for instance, has KOi3S, which will do way more damage than her poison will)

Note that using a weaker status effect won't overwrite the stronger one, so don't worry if you are carrying other poison users that they'll reduce Wriggle's damage.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2010, 12:53:15 AM »
Beat 18f at Reimu 92. I recorded it as requested.. will take some time to upload though. Had 2 sloppy deaths. One of which was one I knew was coming, and gambled that it wouldn't happen, but sure enough it did.. oh well, she did the job anyway I suppose.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2010, 01:20:13 AM »
Reimu level 75. Can't beat
Spoiler:
Mokou
,
Spoiler:
Yuyuko
Spoiler:
Flandre
or
Spoiler:
the Lily Sigil
. So I take on 16F Boss because she looked easier (and she was). Still just barely won though, on Suwako's last Croaking Frog. Meiling was the only one being certain to survive the very strong multi-target attack, so at the end I'd always switch out my characters for...nobody  :V

Then I looked at the wiki (I look only after winning a fight) and they suggested recruiting everyone else beforehand  :V
I feel like I'm missing something very obvious against Mokou...
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Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2010, 01:33:42 AM »
Reimu level 75. Can't beat
Spoiler:
Mokou
,
Spoiler:
Yuyuko
Spoiler:
Flandre
or
Spoiler:
the Lily Sigil
. So I take on 16F Boss because she looked easier (and she was). Still just barely won though, on Suwako's last Croaking Frog. Meiling was the only one being certain to survive the very strong multi-target attack, so at the end I'd always switch out my characters for...nobody  :V

Then I looked at the wiki (I look only after winning a fight) and they suggested recruiting everyone else beforehand  :V
I feel like I'm missing something very obvious against Mokou...
Mokou: Just burn through her as fast as you can; every time she attacks she recovers some HP.  If you debuff her she starts using Tsuki no Iwakasa which will lower your attack, but she'll ONLY use that, and you can build up WND and Debuff resistance and make her even easier.  Just be ready for her final phase.
Yuyuko: Equip DTH and SPI resist items and she becomes a wimp
Flandre: Damage race, since you can't hope to really neuter her damage to you all that much.  I just remember taking her down easy once I set my mind to it.
Lily Sigil guardian: I don't even remember.  Was that the Great Stamp or whatever?  If so, just either beat it down without debuffing it so it won't use Great Earthquake, or debuff and rush the hell out of it, with at least one NTR-pumped supertank to handle Great Earthquake when it comes
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 01:35:57 AM by Garlyle »

Rikter

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2010, 01:42:38 AM »
Also get used to how much damage it takes for Mokou to ressurect so you can get your nukers in at the right Time.

Nitori did far more than Marisa Nuking wise for me.

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2010, 01:44:33 AM »
Also get used to how much damage it takes for Mokou to ressurect so you can get your nukers in at the right Time.

Nitori did far more than Marisa Nuking wise for me.
You mean for Mokou?  Yeah, it's because Mokou's got MYS resistance.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2010, 02:35:57 AM »
Hit 15F. I forgot about Rumia, and then realized that Blackenmels are damn near untouchable.

Until Chen(!) Phoenix Spread Wings them for 11000 after Kimontoku.

Suika can use her wind nuke to clear them and Knockout in Three Steps also clears them. But that was hella unexpected until I saw the PSW formula.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2010, 03:42:19 AM »
Lily Sigil guardian: I don't even remember.  Was that the Great Stamp or whatever?  If so, just either beat it down without debuffing it so it won't use Great Earthquake, or debuff and rush the hell out of it, with at least one NTR-pumped supertank to handle Great Earthquake when it comes
Debuffing Great Stamp's ATK with Alice or someone is a really good idea, just stay away from SPD debuffs. With Alice's ATK debuffs, WrigglePSN, Nitori nuke, Reimu with SP recovery... the battle should be a snap. Tank and stall while PSN damage and two+ nukers being switched in/out whittle down that HP. With this strategy I beat it before even going to 16F, and I only used like 7 of my party members.
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Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2010, 04:32:23 AM »
Heres that 18f boss video as requested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY2wHrgnFpw
Just ignore the mix'n'match character portraits, I'm still playing around finding what I like best. I'm aware I still have to resize Reimu and Patchy's >=P.

It juuust finished uploading so the quality is still probably borked.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2010, 05:52:02 AM »
So I was running around taking care of some loose ends before 13F earlier.

I took on Tenshi and it was laughably easy. Reisen was able to keep her debuffed pretty significantly and I had her Wriggle-Poisoned most of the time as well. Iku buffed up nukes such as Yuugi and Patchy. Tenshi even managed to get a Violent Motherland out and despite losing people I still beat her pretty easily. Awesome.

Sanae's Foe also went down easily. Meiling, Komachi, Yuugi, and Wriggle all managed to be able to survive Hellfires and I kept it poisoned as I nuked it in between Hellfires. Reisen wasn't quite as useful because it seemed to have some debuff resistance.

All in all it's been a great run so far. On a side note, Thunder Stickleback is amazing. A buffed Yuugi was doing 20k Supernaturals and a buffed Nitori was doing 35k Megawatts.
<3

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2010, 07:13:04 AM »
Flandre: Damage race, since you can't hope to really neuter her damage to you all that much.  I just remember taking her down easy once I set my mind to it.
Side note, Tenshi will most likely take 0s from her signature nukes (Forbidden Fruit/Laveatein) due to composite formulas.  I used this in combination with Sanae buffing Kaguya to take her down with ease.

SPI and NTR damage is also your friend, MYS and FIR are not.

For Mokou, don't debuff her unless you feel like eating Tsuki no Iwakasa's Curse every turn.  Which you don't.  Trust me.

Yuyuko went down easily after I got Mokou.  You want durable characters with high MND, SPI, and DTH resist.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2010, 08:22:22 AM »
It's so cool to see people using characters despite the wiki currently giving unflattering reviews of them (although I suppose that will change soon). Here's a summary of my thoughts on some of the characters I see people are using:

Rumia - Surprisingly powerful MYS nuker, as Moonlight Ray can put up some incredible numbers. If you have a way to buff her MAG (such as with Iku or Ran), you can expect Demarcation to become a rather powerful healing spell too; maybe not quite as good as Reimu's, but still quite servicable. Her MAG growth is actually the same as Reimu's, but Rumia levels faster, so the worse formula on Demarcation can still be worked around. I've gone all-out MAG with her, and am still not disappointed with her as of 27F of the Plus Disk. In fact, I've been using her more and more often as I get later into the game. You can see her in my later boss videos healing for 15k HP at level 240 or so, thanks to Iku.

Wriggle - She impresses me for being a damage dealer that never needs to put any points into her offensive stats. This lets you spend all your level up bonuses on HP, DEF, and MND, turning her into a durable character with excellent status resistances as well. Her poison damage isn't necessarily amazing, but still better than many give her credit for, as I've calculated in a few of my videos. Compared to other "tank" characters, at least she contributes way more damage than most.

Iku - Probably the #1 character on Team Unappreciated that surpassed my expectations (although they all did to some extent). When I first started using her on the team, I thought Thundercloud Strickleback was only 50%. But then I discovered that not only is it more than twice as strong of an offensive buff as Miracle Fruit, but it can be cast almost twice as quickly too! Now, all my boss fights start with Iku charging up my damage dealers by an absurd amount. There's nothing better for pumping Rumia's MAG for some strong healing. And don't even get me started on composite formulas! In my video against the 25F boss, you can see Orin doing 200k with Blazing Wheel unbuffed. After a single Thundercloud Strickleback? Well over 400k damage. How many 40 SP, 60% post-use guage moves can boast that huge of a damage contribution? But that's not all; I've also finally realized that Iku is an absolutely amazing MND tank as well! She's got a MND stat that rivals Tenshis, but with better HP to back it up! For those of you who are just starting to use her, I'd recommend going all-out MND to turn her into a magic wall as solid as Patchy. She doesn't need MAG if you're just using her for debuffs and Thundercloud Strickleback anyway. And believe me, that's all you'll need for her to be worth a spot in your party.

Reisen - If Iku was the #1 biggest surprise for me, Reisen is #2. When I first played LoT and read the wiki, I thought Reisen sounded like the absolute worst character in the game. A debuffer who only debuffs 15%, has poor damage formulas, and mediocre growth rates to boot? How does anyone expect to use her? Oh, sure, she's got a 40% self-buff that raises all stats, but how could that possibly save her? No one ever seemed to use her, so the info on her post-usage guages was missing. Then I was forced to use her for Team Unappreciated, and cast Grand Patriot's Elixir for the very first time. What. 83% post-usage guage? That's insane! Right now in my party, she can skyrocket all her stats from 0% to 97% in about the same amount of time it takes for Meiling to recover from switching out a single character! And with all those speed boosts she gives herself, her spells probably feel like they only have about 50% delay. Once she has enough SP to chug a Grand Patriot's Elixir whenever she falls below 60% buffs, she can stay in to do excellent damage while taking a few hits as well. And I still haven't even gotten to her debuffs, but honestly now, I'm already content with her damage output. In my most recent fight against Yuka, Reisen was able to stay in for almost the whole fight, and contributed about 80% as much damage as Nitori did. Given that Nitori is now a top-tier damage dealer, and that Reisen was taking hits while also adding some very useful MAG and SPD debuffs in addition to that damage, I'd say that's pretty amazing.

You mean for Mokou?  Yeah, it's because Mokou's got MYS resistance.

Nope, I'm pretty sure Mokou's neutral to MYS. Her only resistance is to Fire.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 5F
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2010, 08:26:11 AM »
It was an established fact around here that Rumia's a decent character, though I think it's worth noting that Rumia's really only relevant in Plus Disk when you've significantly buffed her durability, because it's not enough to handle some of the tougher enemies past 28F. She has no issues with damage but she's still kind of squishy. You either HAVE to buff her defense in battle to make her survive slugfests or switch her out at key moments. I managed to defeat the Winner using a party of Rumia / Mystia / Cirno / Wriggle and it's really quite doable provided you twink the right stuff. But yeah I don't think anyone's denying Rumia's usefulness

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