Author Topic: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?  (Read 39928 times)

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2010, 07:56:52 PM »
edit: about using the bgm for memorizing stages, it may work... unless you have to pause the game :(

Bah. Touhou players don't have a life outside of the game. No need to pause it! only an issue in EoSD.

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2010, 08:14:23 PM »
Oh this thread is just filled with silly. But then I saw this:

Arcade games and the genres that came from the arcades, by nature, are generally harder than other games.
FIXED. THIS. Everyone needs to read THIS and understand. Then you will know truth.
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Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2010, 08:22:04 PM »
but according to ZUN, Hard is arcade difficulty :getdown:

Tengukami

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2010, 08:22:32 PM »
yeah, but DDP is more like "oh, so they come from the left, so I have to stream to the right to not get killed the for 6th time" - it comes naturally as you play, while touhou has memorization based on pixel perfect positioning.

Oh wow. Seriously? You're going with that? Hahaha, alrighty then.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2010, 08:38:14 PM »
Oh wow. Seriously? You're going with that? Hahaha, alrighty then.
Have you even played DDP? :V

Tengukami

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2010, 08:47:47 PM »
Have you even played DDP?

Indeed I have. Don't you remember?

But it doesn't matter. Your statement that "touhou has memorization based on pixel perfect positioning" is ridiculous for two reasons. Number one, micrododging is a fraction of what you have going on in any given Touhou game. Number two, you have what's known as a "hitbox" and "focused movement" in Touhou. This sort of balances the scales when you do have to micrododge, as opposed to playing shmups where you have no hitbox nor focused movement.

I notice you're having a lot of fun bouncing around all over this thread spouting all kinds of hilarious bon mots, but this one just floored me. Seriously, if you're going to make a criticism, make a genuine one based on reality.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2010, 09:02:22 PM »
Dodonpachi has an even smaller hitbox and focus as well :V

Also, a shmup without a hitbox would be impossible to lose...if you mean visible hitbox, I don't need that.

I haven't seen anyone perfectly sightread Ageless Obsession. It's a memorize or bomb attack. Not micrododging. Same for Guest Stars. It might not seem on easy to hard, but on lunatic it forces you to bomb or perfectly memorize the attack.
I wish Touhou had more micrododging. Most of it turns out to be simple streaming, memorization or random movement/luck based spam.

And...mind giving me an example of touhou criticism based on reality? :V

Tengukami

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2010, 09:05:15 PM »
I wish Touhou had more micrododging. Most of it turns out to be simple streaming, memorization or random movement/luck based spam.

Which is kind of totally different from a lot of what you've been saying in this thread and others. Just sayin'. But yes, having a visible hitbox and focused movement balances the scales when you need to squeeze through tight spaces. There is absolutely no need for "pixel-perfect memorization" in Touhou.

Anyway, don't let me get in the way of your fun. Carry on.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 09:09:47 PM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2010, 09:06:02 PM »
I'm pretty sure DDP's hitbox is bigger than Touhou's. Or at least the same.

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2010, 09:07:23 PM »
The question is:

How do you tell in a given situation if a person who openly achknowledges himself as a troll is actually merely making biased arguments without the intention of trolling?

 :/

Anyways, tell me all those points in touhou, preferrably outside of extra stages, where "pixel-perfect positioning memorization" is neccessary to get past them. Not points where it is possible to abuse safespots and pseudo-safespots, I am talking neccessity here.

Guest Stars, for example, you do not need to "memorize" per se. You need to notice how the card works (which is not difficult) and then you'll be able to beat it without memorization as long as your reading skills and movement execution are on the required level. A player of your ability shouldn't have a problem with that...
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Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2010, 09:08:01 PM »
Which is kind of totally different from a lot of what you've been saying in this thread and others. Just sayin'.

Anyway, don't let me get in the way of your fun. Carry on.
Can you remind me what have I been saying in this thread? :V

Tengukami

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2010, 09:11:00 PM »
Can you remind me what have I been saying in this thread?

Nope, would rather not play the "dance with B-dog" game today. You're aware enough of how you repeatedly contradict yourself for the sake of stirring up drama and pushing buttons. Let's just leave it at that.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2010, 09:15:09 PM »
I have no idea that I've been doing these things...could you tell me where exactly have I contradicted myself?

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2010, 09:48:58 PM »
Doesn't matter. Just keep it up. its pretty good for a read when it comes from you.

Vibri

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2010, 10:21:10 PM »
isn't this all completely irrelevant to the actual topic, which was "why is touhou hard"
the answer was "it's a shmup, and shmups are hard"

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2010, 02:48:24 AM »
Argh the original topic was "Why are Touhou fangames harder than most other fangames" >_>

I don't think people have answered that yet :P

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2010, 02:55:06 AM »
Argh the original topic was "Why are Touhou fangames harder than most other fangames" >_>

I don't think people have answered that yet :P

The simplest answer is because they're [danmaku] shoot-em-ups [unless they aren't, in which the reason is because it's a Touhou fangame, Touhou is supposed to be hard].
This is supposed to be a hard genre. Answered a few posts up to the newish topic, but it's relevant here as well.

also, post at around 10:55pm local time, might be incoherent

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2010, 03:00:16 AM »
...Er yeah, that's self-referential...

Anyways I think this was specifically /not/ focused on shmups, and so to the other genres (Super Marisa, etc.)...
In which case "Touhou is supposed to be hard" is basically..
asking the question again...

Eh
:/

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #78 on: June 06, 2010, 03:05:00 AM »
Argh the original topic was "Why are Touhou fangames harder than most other fangames" >_>

I don't think people have answered that yet :P

actually I did by stating Japanese games, and doujin games tend to be harder on average. That and doujin game developers KNOW their audience is more hardcore than your average gamer.

Vibri

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2010, 05:05:51 AM »
Touhou fangames that aren't shmups are usually parodies of other games and it would be dumb to make a copy of a game that's easier than the original.  Mystery solved!

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2010, 05:41:43 AM »
If there's something the rhythm gaming world taught me, one of the reasons fangames/simulators exist is to create more of a challenge than the original game offered.  No matter how hard something is, there's always people who want it harder.  It's not something that's unique to any specific game or genre of gaming.  For ridiculous Touhou challenges, you have things like the EoSD Ultra hack and Danmakufu scripts.  For Mario, you have Kaizo Mario.  For rhythm games, you have each game's respective simulator program and communities around creating ridiculous charts for them.  It's definitely not unique to Touhou at all.
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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2010, 06:21:37 AM »
Why is Super Marisa World my favorite platformer? Because I'm charmed by its design's stupidity. The game even does its best to scare new players away...

Oh, I tried some Cave shmups on MAME. Here's my opinions...
Donpachi: Funny Engrish, otherwise boring
Dodonpachi: Best shmup ever? Only average imo.
Guwange: Crap.
Dangun Feveron: Fun for few stages...then got annoying.
ESP Ra.De.: Best of the five, but nothing outstanding.
Touhou is better.

The best shmup ever is  Radiant Silvergun. It's...unique.

Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2010, 11:00:15 AM »
Why is Super Marisa World my favorite platformer? Because I'm charmed by its design's stupidity. The game even does its best to scare new players away...

Oh, I tried some Cave shmups on MAME. Here's my opinions...
Donpachi: Funny Engrish, otherwise boring
Dodonpachi: Best shmup ever? Only average imo.
Guwange: Crap.
Dangun Feveron: Fun for few stages...then got annoying.
ESP Ra.De.: Best of the five, but nothing outstanding.
Touhou is better.

The best shmup ever is  Radiant Silvergun. It's...unique.
Now play Dimahoo

Also, do I get extra points for immediately thinking "this guy likes Treasure" right after seeing your name? :V

Treasurance

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2010, 04:39:36 PM »
Now play Dimahoo

Also, do I get extra points for immediately thinking "this guy likes Treasure" right after seeing your name? :V

You also get two extra extends that are extreme in every way. Do I have to add ''accidentally''?

Touhou at least has deathbomb times...Cave doesn't. That is kinda enfuriating.

Now, let's (not) start a Touhou vs. Cave fight.

Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2010, 04:52:14 PM »
And Garegga doesn't even give bomb invincibility :V

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2010, 04:54:16 PM »
And Garegga doesn't even give bomb invincibility :V

Raiden Fighters series doesn't either. The exception is the Miclus and Fairy ships which are invincible(to bullets during a bomb).

Treasurance

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2010, 05:11:08 PM »
Well, I'm not interested in Garegga anyways. I have heard enough of its funny rank system. Radiant Silvergun doesn't even have bombs (but the awesome thunderclap!), is very memorization based and goddamn hard but it's still fun. Even on an emulator.
Now that Treasure has finished with Sin and Punishment 2, I'd like to see them make a bullet hell shmup that puts Cave to shame. Well, not gonna happen. Probably.
Isn't this going a little off topic?

Bananamatic

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2010, 05:15:35 PM »
from what I've seen, Treasure shmups are very different from Cave

it's like trying to put Team Fortress 2 to shame with the new CoD

Treasurance

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Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2010, 05:28:02 PM »
CoD? Don't associate Treasure with that crap, please.
Ikaruga is bullet hell...well, at least looking at the amounts of bullets. And RS has some bullet hellish moments. But yes, they are very different shmups. Treasure makes unique games, so making something Cave-ish would be weird. But at least it would get proper worldwide release.

Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2010, 01:41:49 AM »
Why is Super Marisa World my favorite platformer? Because I'm charmed by its design's stupidity. The game even does its best to scare new players away...

Oh, I tried some Cave shmups on MAME. Here's my opinions...
Donpachi: Funny Engrish, otherwise boring
Dodonpachi: Best shmup ever? Only average imo.
Guwange: Crap.
Dangun Feveron: Fun for few stages...then got annoying.
ESP Ra.De.: Best of the five, but nothing outstanding.
Touhou is better.

The best shmup ever is  Radiant Silvergun. It's...unique.

Donpachi: haven't played it enough
DDP: if you don't count DOJ, DFK and the Labels (I have played none of these), DDP has a lot of stage design effort for scoreplay. Plus, it has an interesting (though very punishing) score mechanic based on your max chain hits and surplus bombs (for the Max Bombs bonus), and its chaining system. While the boss fights are rather short in comparison with Touhou (or rather, Touhou bosses must show as much patterns as they can), the difficulty while actually playing (if you want to keep your Max Bombs bonus) makes the boss fights feel longer. Though the patterns may not look pretty, they're no less fun to dodge through, and the stages are more fun than in Touhou as well.
Guwange: I want to play it when I have the time, I've played Feveron before and game-long chains supposedly shouldn't drive me away (unless the game in question is MoF, which may have more sandbox than design effort for scoreplay)
Feveron: funny, I've reached the third boss once ( when playing it for a week ) and I really enjoyed the stages and bosses, even when playing for speedkills ( or rather, because of the speed kills, which allow the game to be as intense as you can make it be ). Also, even though the chaining is unforgiving, depending on how late you lose it in the stages, the way the chaining works is a nice mental exercise in foresight of bullets, enemy movement and discomen.
ESP Ra.De: that's because you didn't get the scoring system well enough. When initiating multiplier sessions, if you have reached the maximum capacity for point item boxes, destroying more resilient enemies with your primary shot will yield point item boxes as well, which extend your current multiplier session. If you played with JB-5th and selected Yusuke's stage as the third stage, you can "sometimes" see that after you've destroyed the big tank near the end of the stage, there will be lots of point item boxes falling and your multiplier session becomes longer than you would normally expect. That's due to the maximum capacity, if you can maintain it through that part. (plus, your bomb has effects on your multiplier timer, delaying it, halting it or even extending it)

>> Touhou is better:
already said what I think about it before; try to play Touhou for score, then please tell us how it's better.


Touhou at least has deathbomb times...Cave doesn't. That is kinda enfuriating.

some Cave games do have counterbomb times (Mushihimesama Arrange, for example). A fun fact.. Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu had auto-bomb (afaik. I can't play it unless I buy a PCB), which extended one's playtime, even though the auto-bomb has shorter effect (invincibility time and damage). Apparently, people waiting in line were bothered by the extended wait time, and DFK Black Label made the Autobomb optional.
(ESP Galuda has autobomb if you're hit while using the slowdown -- which can be used either for survival or for scoring, but if you sacrifice gems for survival, you'll score less -- and don't have an empty bomb gauge)

Also, a lot of shmups don't include counterbomb, either (even Shuusou Gyoku). Like Banana said, Garegga (or RFJ) won't even give invulnerability time. But then Garegga allows you to manage the game, and that's part of what makes it fun (plus, bombing for score is nice. From bombing small ships and sceneries for more points/medals/points, to bombing the flamingoes/Mad Balls/Black Heart mkII's grenade attacks. Seriously, I want to do the latter someday, after raising the rank to make Black Heart mkII angrier. The path will be long and difficult, but I'll enjoy it a lot.)

I mean, not every shmup has to give invulnerability times and counter bombs to be fun.


Well, I'm not interested in Garegga anyways. I have heard enough of its funny rank system.

I, on the other hand, like this fun rank system..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sotli-6cheI
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7072222

as you (and everyone else) can see above, the game's beatable even in such high ranks (demonstrated in the second video only; the first video is what you can do if you score well enough: just see Enhasa's comment on it.), as long as you're good enough and can control it well enough.


If there's something the rhythm gaming world taught me, one of the reasons fangames/simulators exist is to create more of a challenge than the original game offered.

when an experienced enough company makes a shmup which is well-designed enough, you know that you can 1cc it (and again, even 1lc it. Can't remember an exception.), and that it may have an interesting scoring mechanic (though the game can be fun even without such depth). Games which reward intelligent play (either for survival or score, or both) tend to be more respected than games which are meant to have unintelligent difficulty, by people who value gameplay. That may explain arcade shmups having usually more competition than doujin. Because they're (normally) deeper in gameplay and it takes much more time for someone to finally exhaust that depth ( or give up on the way, at least for a while ) and then get bored.

Kaizo Mario, or variations which are meant to be cheap (while usually demanding inhumanly precise movements and exploiting SMW's gameplay with prohibitively inhuman execution), aren't meant for competition. Sure, you could make a custom GH track which would be impossible to beat, and no one would see the point of trying to win in a game (track) which is meant to be unwinnable by design. However if your custom GH track or doujin shmup is good enough, more people will compete on it. (I can think about Defense of the Ancients and Counter Strike tournaments as examples)


Raiden Fighters series doesn't either. The exception is the Miclus and Fairy ships which are invincible(to bullets during a bomb).

you don't use bombs for countering projectiles/enemies in RFJ, you use them for creating a no-bullet field if you need it :V  (besides scoring)

Sometimes, said bomb can also be used to make sure you have enough time to reveal a miclus ( NER's JudgeSpear slave run has it on Simulation 15 ).. or was it a fairy?
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