Yukari was Maribel: An analysis using official sources

[Tiamat]

EDIT:  Title changed into something that might be more accurate

I have too much time on my hands.

 Apologies in advance if everyone knows this already.  I ran a search on this forum for the words "Yukari" and "Maribel" and as far as I know, the "Maribel is Yukari" thing is viewed primarily as fan speculation.  Curious about this, I've looked into it myself, and I realized that ZUN already laid out the actual truth quite a while ago.  I hope I can present it in a way that's legible.  I tend to ramble.  In fact, I'm rambling right now.

So let's begin.

Yukari Yakumo

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Yukari

She's a youkai that has the power to manipulate boundaries that's existed for at least 1,200 years.  She's also a wierdo and is constantly pulling strings behind Gensokyo for unknown suspicious reasons.  But she sincerely loves Gensokyo with all her heart.

Maribel Hearn (Yes, I'll stick with Hearn, not Han.  ZUN always has symbolism in his names and "Han" doesn't have any symbolism that I can see)

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Maribel

She's a human girl and her time is in the future (this is revealed in 53 Minutes as well as Magical Astronomy) where strawberries are artificial and children don't smile.  She has the ability to see boundaries (but not manipulate them!).  Oh, and she looks like Yukari, leading to many fan theories and guesses that she is Yukari in various ways.

Of course, this topic is here to prove that it's true.  And not just that, but how.  And... a whole lot more other things.

First off, I'll show the possibility that Maribel is Yukari.  So don't expect hard-core evidence right off the bat.  After setting up that possibility however, I shall then prove how it's true.  And this will be done using only official sources and actual dialogue from the games and works written by ZUN himself.

Disclaimer:  I am going by the translations at touhouwikia.com.  I can't read Japanese.  So it's possible I might be misinterpreting the translated text in front of me.

Let's start with the most obvious things.


Physical Resemblance.

Both Yukari and Maribel are blond and have long hair.  There isn't much more to say about body shape since ZUN's art typically doesn't differentiate with body shape that much.  ZUN does put a truckton of effort into the clothes when he designs characters, though.


The Clothes

Yukari Yakumo wears red and violet.  This is meant to represent the border of visible light (and thus, by extension, borders in general).  "Yukari" means violet, too, and it is officially confirmed in Curiosities of Lotus Asia Chapter (CoLA) 25 that this is one of the meanings behind Yukari's name.  Obviously, Yukari likes violet, with a sprinkling of red.  The two represent the colors of the border (officially confirmed in COLA 25).  And some white here and there.  She mostly wears violet, though.  Her name also means 8 (explained more in depth in CoLA chapter 25 to mean "control over many", but that's besides the point), which is probably why you always see her wearing ribbons in the shape of an 8.  Take a look at her various outfits (all two of them.  That's twice as many outfits as everyone else, though) here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Yukari

Now take a look at Maribel's various outfits here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostly_Field_Club

Maribel is wearing primarily violet, but has a red teapot.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Changeability_of_Strange_Dream

Maribel is wearing violet, with a red ribbon in the shape of an eight.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Retrospective_53_minutes

Maribel is wearing violet, but has a white bowtie with red.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Astronomy

Maribel is wearing violet, but has red shoes.

Alright, alright.  I have now proven that the two have the same taste in clothes.  That doesn't prove that Maribel is Yukari.  Let's move on.



The Name: Symbolism

Well, outside of the storyline, there's the symbolism here which Touhou Wikia spells out.  I'll quote it:

Lafcadio Hearn the Western author of Japanese horror stories. Lafcadio Hearn was known as "Koizumi Yakumo" after he gained Japanese citizenship."


Lafcadio Hearn became Koizumi Yakumo.

Maribel Hearn became Yukari Yakumo.

Maribel has at least one more parallel to Hearn, too, which helps the theory that ZUN had Lafcadio Hearn in mind.  Like Lafcadio, Maribel is an immigrant to Japan who gained Japanese citizen ship.  We know she isn't of Japanese ethnicity because of the way her name is spelled (Renko can't even pronounce her name right and just refers to her as "Mary").  And we know she lives in Japan because. every story she's in takes place in Japan.  Finally, Lufcadio wrote several stories decrying some of the evils of capitalism and other things that oppressed the poor, which is a theme of Maribel's for Magical Astronomy.


Yukari's Original Name:

Of course, in order to show the possibility that "Maribel = Yukari", I need to show official proof that "Yukari Yakumo" isn't her original name.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_25

Rinnosuke can tell the name of any object by looking at it, and then know the purpose of that object.  Apparently, this extends to living things, too, and he can even tell why the name was chosen.  In CoLA 25, Rinnosuke uses his special ability to realize that "Yukari Yakumo" is a name that Yukari chose for herself.

Akyu's Perfect Memento in the Strict Sense can Rinnosuke up.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Yukari_Yakumo

"Historically, there is an article the Youkai Encyclopedia from Aichi's (*2) Gensokyo Chronicle seems to be describing her. She is said to look the same now as she appeared back then."

"Seems to be describing her?"  Aichi's Encyclopedia was written 1200 years ago.  So apparently, 1,200 years ago, Yukari didn't have her name yet, because Aichi wasn't able to give her a name back then.  We know she was named Yukari Yakumo by the time she invaded the moon 1,000 years ago, though.  Or rather, that she had named herself Yukari Yakumo.  After all, this is the incident that made her famous, and furthermore, Rinnosuke discovers a device the youkai built in preparation for the moon invasion where the author signed with the name, "Yukari Yakumo" (Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 21).

The symbolism of Maribel's name is that she'll become Yukari, and the possibility is open because Yukari isn't Yukari's original name.  This means there's the possibility that Maribel will one day change her name to Yukari.


Let's move on to Maribel's stories, finally.  I'll link to each of them for you to read.  Perhaps you will realize the possibility that Maribel is Yukari from these stories without me even having to point anything out, if not completely convinced she is.  Still, if you do, I hope my proofs will show other things you may not have spotted.

Note:  These stories occur in the order ZUN released them.  There's always at least one sentence here or there which shows beyond a doubt that the latest story takes place after the previous one.


Ghostly Field Club

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostly_Field_Club:_Story

Quick Summary:  Maribel and her best friend Renko try to find the entrance to the Netherworld in a graveyard, but aren't able to.  Afterwards, Renko gets a new lead on a special place and suggests they go to the Hakurei Shrine instead.


The important part of this story is that it shows Maribel went to the Hakurei Shrine.  This further supports the possibility that Maribel named herself Yukari (CoLA Chapter 25 shows that one meaning behind Yukari's name is that she will control the Shrine Maidens)

Sadly, we don't know what Maribel saw at the Hakurei Shrine.  Still, whatever she saw there is not important to keeping open the possibility that she is Yukari.  All we need to know is that she went to the Hakurei Shrine, which opens up the possibility that she named herself Yukari Yakumo (and also opens up the possibility of her realizing where Gensokyo's physical location is in the future.

Whatever the heck she saw at the Hakurei Shrine, afterwards she started dreaming about Gensokyo (Changeability of Strange Dream takes place after Ghostly Field Club, and Maribel's only been dreaming about Gensokyo recently once it starts).  Considering that she didn't dream about Gensokyo before, logic implies that something at the Hakurei Shrine caused her to start dreaming about Gensokyo (and possibily more...)

Off-topic (because it is speculation:

Three things about the Hakurei Shrine that may help you speculate what Maribel saw at the shrine:

1)  From Perfect Cherry Blossom's prologue, the original barrier surrounding Gensokyo was made by priests, not Yukari.  Yukari merely strengthened it and changed it into a border of reality and illusion later on (which is what made it become almost impossible for anyone to go in and out of).  So the border can exist even if Yukari had never existed in the first place (which is important because Maribel hasn't become Yukari yet)

2)  The outside world Hakurei Shrine is probably a lively place with many people.  Akyu speculates that it's desolate in Perfect Memento.  Aya speculates that it's desolate in Bohemian Archive.  These are probably LIES.  Rinnosuke actually visits the outside world in CoLA Chapter 2: Purple Transcending Light, and comes to a shrine with a LOT of activity in it, but Yukari boots him back into Gensokyo before he can learn more.  Yukari editted Perfect Memento, and Yukari is the one who likely gives people the stories of the outside world in the first place.  And in Changeability of Strange Dream, Renko mentions a desolate Hakurei shrine as one of the things that showed up in Maribel's dream, not the real world. So for whatever reason, Yukari appears to be LYING and claiming that the outside Hakurei Shrine is desolate even though it's really very crowded and bustling.  It makes you wonder what the heck Maribel saw at the Hakurei Shrine that would make her go to such lengths to lie about it later.

3) http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Music_Columns#Introduction

As shown by the link, ZUN is the head priest of the outside world Hakurei Shrine.  Maybe Maribel met him and he said "Hey, I'm going to use my author god powers to make you into a boundary youkai so you can create Gensokyo and make the Touhou Games take place."  *shrug*


Enough speculation!  This topic is about proof (or rather, at the moment, showing the possibility that Maribel is Yukari.  The proof will come after that).  Let's move on.


Changeability of Strange Dream

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Changeability_of_Strange_Dream:_Story

Quick Summary:  Maribel dreams she is in a strange world (obviously Gensokyo).  She is aware she is in a dream while she's dreaming it.  It's so real, that Maribel wonders if that's the actual reality instead of her current life in Japan.  She asks Renko for advice, and to prove she isn't lying, gives Renko the objects she found in her dreams (Cookies from the Scarlet Mansion, Bamboo Shoots from the Bamboo forest, and a piece of paper from the Bamboo forest).  Maribel comments that the dreams are bad dreams because they always end with her being chased by monsters.  However, if she could make it into a good dream (IE, one where monsters stop trying to eat people like her), it would be better than her current reality.  Apparently, according to Changeability of Strange Dream, the future is a place where kids don't smile (Part 1) and all the food, such as bamboo shoots, artificial (Part 4).  There are a lot more details like her meeting Mokou and Sakuya in those dreams, but we can look into that later

Anyways, Renko dodges Maribel's question about if the dreams are real or not (Part 5).  After Maribel leaves, Renko has some time to think for herself.  She believes Maribel somehow crossed into another world (and even wonders if Maribel's powers are evolving to be able to manipulate borders instead of just seeing them), and realizes Maribel is in danger where she might get trapped there forever or be eaten by a Youkai..  Renko decides there are two ways to help her.

"First, throw the stuff away and make her recognize she's in a dream or an illusion.

By doing this, she wouldn't wander into the world of dream again. Dream and reality are different.

And the another way is...

Waking her up from her dream by making her strongly recognize she's not in the world of dream but actually exists in another world.

Still... she wouldn't come back to this world again."


Renko then asks which is better for Maribel, and which is better for her.  The two are apparently mutually exclusive.  In the final part, Part 11,  she meets Maribel again.  Maribel is oblivious to the seriousness of the situation.  We then see Renko's private thoughts.  She thinks the world in Maribel's dreams are a wonderful magical world, but can't stand the thought of Maribel enjoying it alone.  IE, without her.  This shows which choice is better for Renko (throw the stuff away, so that Maribel can stay with her instead of go to Genskyo).  She doesn't say this outloud though, and reveals that she didn't throw the objects away after all, revealing that she chose what's better for Maribel (enjoying a fantastic world where children actually smile and the food isn't artificial).  She tells Maribel that dreams aren't real just because you think they are.  You have to make them real.  And they should work towards making Maribel's dreams a reality.

...it has nothing to do with proving that Maribel is Yukari, but I find the fact that Renko says this to Maribel knowing that Maribel will enjoy this wonderful dream world without her to be very very sad


That was a long summary.  And now, let's take some parts from it that prove the possibility of Maribel being Yukari.

From Part 1:

"It doesn't matter to me at all.
By the way, I have a great power. It's because our clan has had a kind of inspiration since ancient times...
I have the ability to see every boundary all over the world, in other words, a border.
Our true scheme is to seek for the gaps of the boundaries and to dive into another world. It's what they call "Spiriting Away", isn't it?"

As we can see, Maribel can only see every boundary, but her clan hopes to become capable of spiriting away.  This can be seen as foreshadowing, as Yukari's title in Perfect Cherry Blossom is "The One Behind the Spiriting Away".  I imagine that a little foreshadowing probably isn't enough for most people, but how about this line from Renko?

From Part 10, in regards to Mary entering a new world in her dreams:

"It's because Mary changed the ability of seeing the boundary to that of manipulate it? No, it's impossible."

...so yea, now THAT'S foreshadowing!  Renko is starting to think Maribel's power to see the boundary is changing into the power to manipulate it!  This is very nice support to the possibility of Mary being Yukari.  So nice in fact that it convinced me that she was Yukari, already, but I decided to look further anyways.


From Part 9:

"And, this is the scrap of paper I found after the big mouse and the girl left."

Maribel says this about a piece of paper from the bamboo forest.  One she apparently wrote on.  It's likely this piece of paper:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Memorandum

The paper and the dream reveal that Maribel's dream ability includes time slipping.  That is to say, her traveling to Gensokyo can make her time travel back in time.  This is important because Magical Astronomy's story reveals that Maribel is from the future, and we all know that Yukari existed over 1,200 years ago.

This thus opens the possiblity that Maribel is Yukari, despite the fact that Maribel is from the future (revealed in Magical Astronomy and 53 Minutes) and Yukari existed long long ago.

Of course, it's impossible for Maribel to have this piece of paper and Akyu to have it, too.  It breaks the law of conservation of mass, for example.

" If some objects in a dream show up, we'll be confused. It's against the law of conservation of mass. Besides, how's the entropy?"  ~Renko, Changeability of Strange Dream

...right.

"You can't allow yourself to be trapped by common sense in Gensokyo!" ~Sanae

(alternatively, maybe Maribel is just giving Renko a random piece of paper.  Whatever)


Oh, and here's a small one from Part 8:

"Still, It had a strange shape.
I mean... on its face were two eyes, like yours.
Humans are mostly like this.

The size of its face was same as that of human.
Or rather, was it a human's face? Yes, it was. It was a human's face, I believe.
Do you know some big mouses that have a human's face?"

Apparently it's to the point where Yukari gets annoyed about monsters masquerading with human faces, as shown in her dialogue to Keine in Imperishable Night's Border Team story:

Keine:  I'm a human when the moon isn't full.
Yukari:  Not much different from a human-faced dog or human-faced rock, then.
Keine:  Why does everything except my face have to change? It's a complete transformation.
Yukari:  Oh, but you could have a cow-head or a horse-head.  Just transform only your head to that of a beast if you want.
Keine (clearly insulted): ...Fine. If you're going to say that, I won't allow you to take it back.

I'm still only showing possibilities here.  But I think that it's pretty darn possible Yukari's dislike of beasts with human heads comes from when she got chased by such beasts in her dream as Maribel.



From Part 5:

" Dreams usually end when I'm chased by some youkai.
If you say it's a bad dream, maybe it's right..."
" Though, if I could change a bad dream to a good dream, it would be nicer than the reality..."

If you've already accepted that Maribel is Yukari, then the entirety of Changeability of Strange Dream takes on a whole new light.  This isn't the story of a girl who would one day become Yukari.  This is the origin of Yukari's entire motivation for almost everything she does!  Think about it.  Like that time Yukari first invaded the moon, and "It is since this incident that youkai usually do not choose to attack beyond their territory." (Perfect Memento).  Or Yukari's agreement with the Oni (described in Perfect Memento's Oni article as " They are the strongest enemies of humans in Gensokyo.  Their livelihood is to kidnap humans") which made the Oni live underground where they'd stop attacking humans (Yukari's conversation with Yuugi when you play as Reimu with Yukari shows the agreement was Yukari's agreement).  It even goes as far as Yukari writing up the spell card rules (There's TONS of evidence that indicate Yukari is the one that did this.  I wrote up a general synopsis in the "Injustice in Gensokyo?" spell card thread) which finally led to a golden age where humans and youkai are friends.  Clearly, Yukari has been doing a lot to attempt to change Gensokyo from a bad dream where youkai attack humans to a good dream.  She even subtly tries to discourage passerby youkai from doing it when she can, apparently.
"Really. You seem to be a night sparrow. If you attack humans too often, there won't be any more left around here." ~Yukari to Mystia in Imperishable Night

Of course, that's if you've already accepted that Maribel is Yukari.  If you haven't, then let's just say this merely proves it's possible that Yukari got her motivations for what she does from her experiences in her dreams while she was (possibly) Maribel.


As for Maribel meeting Sakuya and Mokou in her dreams., I'll get into that later, because it involves present day events.  I'm trying to focus on Maribel's story right now.

Of course, Changeability also answers why Yukari (Maribel) is around in the Touhou games but Renko isn't.  In Part 11, Renko reveals that she knows that Maribel will be enjoying this fantastic dream world without her.  But she helps Maribel find it anyways, because Renko knows that's what's best for her friend.

...poor Renko ;_;


Retrospective 53 Minutes

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Retrospective_53_minutes:_Story

Eh, this one is mostly filler story about Renko and Maribel discussing the nature of dreams and illusions, etc.  Honestly, I personally believe Maribel's story was supposed to end with Changeability of Strange Dream, but maybe ZUN liked Maribel and Renko too much to be finished with them just yet.  ZUN himself states in the afteword this story "has neither processes nor punchlines".  He also states that in that way, it's a happy ending.  ...well, I suppose a story without processes or punchlines is a much happier ending than one that ends with Renko knowing that she'll eventually be left behind and never get to see Maribels Gensokyo.

Still, this story is the first time it's revealed that Maribel lives in the future (The 53 subway stations of Japan are referred to as a thing of the past).  I'm pretty sure that wasn't brought up in Ghostly Field Club or Changeability.


And now, the grand finale to Maribel's story, Magical Astronomy.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Astronomy:_Story

Quick Summary:  Maribel and Renko hear about moon tours being held.  Maribel has seen the boundary on the moon where a special hidden world exists (The Moon Capital, with the lunar rabbits, etc), and she and Renko really want to go in order to check it out.  They discuss several things about the moon and other concepts such as the moon's immortality elixir (Renko states that she'd totally drink it, explaining that it's really just removing your own boundary between life and death and thus not the curse people make it out to be), before finally realizing that moon tours are expensive, and they won't be able to afford to go.  As the two look at a fountain's lake, and see the moon reflected in the water, Maribel comes up with an idea.

"Well, Renko. If the Moon Tour is too expensive to go, shall we consider going there by another way?"

And the story ends.

First of all, this story throughout has an anti-capitalist vibe, which also explains a lot about one of Yukari's viewpoints.  However, there's something else that most of you probably saw when you read that story that's so big that I think I'll just skip to that, and explain why Yukari hates rich people later.

The ending, right?  It's like, some super dramatic cliff hanger.  I imagine you might have realized it already.  What's so special about Maribel coming up with an idea to go to the moon just by looking at it's reflection on the lake?  And what does that have to do with Maribel becoming Yukari?  Well, have you read Silent Sinner in Blue?  Don't you remember Yukari's preferred method of travelling to the moon?  Did you see it when Akyu said how Yukari does it in Perfect Memento in the Strict Sense?  I'll quote the latter:

" It is said that she once invaded the moon by modifying the boundary between truth and lie and plunging into the mirrored moon on the lake's surface."

Silent Sinner in Blue confirms that this is how Yukari actually does travel to the moon.

That's right.  The ending of Magical Astronomy, the final story of Maribel and Renko, is Maribel's border powers fully awakening!  Now she has the power to manipulate borders, just like Yukari.  Or rather, I've shown the possibility that this is where Maribel's powers evolved to the point of being as strong as Yukari's (manipulating the border between truth and lie?  That's strong stuff!), and thus shown the possibility that Maribel did gain Yukari's power (and going from that, the possibility that she became Yukari, herself)
Let's recap:

Maribel wears the same clothing style as Yukari.

The symbolism of Maribel Hearn's last name is that she becomes Yukari Yakumo.  Yukari Yakumo's name, meanwhile, is confirmed in canon to not be her original name.

Maribel visited the Hakurei Shrine, and started dreaming about Gensokyo after that.  This is what allowed herself to come up with the name Yukari Yakumo (where one of the names is about controlling the shrine maidens) as well as figure out where the land of her dreams was actually physically located.

Maribel dreamed of Gensokyo, and from there is shown that she can time-slip.  This is how she'd later eventually travel back in time, which is why Yukari Yakumo was spotted as early as 1,200 years in the past.

Maribel wanted to change her bad dream (being chased by Youkai) into a good dream.  This explains all the things Yukari's done in Gensokyo's history that eventually led to youkai being friends with humans.

The last we ever saw of Maribel, she was about to use border powers to travel to the moon, via the same method Yukari uses.


What happened after that?  We don't know.  The story just ends with Maribel's border powers about to awaken.  After they did, she had to have hit a huge time-slip sometime soon after which sent her more than 1,200 years into the past, because we never hear about Maribel again (It's been more than three years since the last Maribel & Renko story!  Ever since then, ZUN's switched to Akyu for musical CDs, instead.).  We know that Renko didn't go with her (Renko herself knew she wouldn't be able to), and that it took Maribel a while to figure out what she wanted to call herself.  The awakening of her border powers also probably resulted in her becoming a youkai (or maybe she simply manipulated her boundary between human and youkai).  Given that Perfect Memento states she looks the same now as she did 1,200 years ago, Maribel probably took Renko's advice and removed her own border between life and death (giving herself immortality).

And after that?  Well, she had her goal, and the motivation to do it.  In Changeability of Strange Dream, Renko implored her to make her dream a reality.  She figured out where her dream world was thanks to her previous visit to the Hakurai Shrine.  She would take it and change it from a bad dream into a good dream.  She would use it to "seal away the gods" (youkai) and the shrine maidens, and she was the youkai of boundaries who would be in control of the many. And this is the meaning behind the name she would give herself.

From that day on, Maribel was no more.  Now she was Yukari Yakumo.

Well, I hope you enjoyed my proof that Maribel is Yukari.  Thank you for reading!  Perhaps next time I'll...

Oh, right, I've only shown the POSSIBILITY that Maribel is Yukari.

They like the same clothes.  It's POSSIBLE Maribel is Yukari.  Maribel's last name is Hearn POSSIBLY because she'll become Yukari.  Maribel wanting to change Gensokyo into a good dream POSSIBLY explains Yukari's motivations.  Maribel looking at her reflection on the moon POSSIBLY is when her border powers awakened for her to become Yukari.  And all of Maribel's experiences in general POSSIBLY explains why Yukari chose the name "Yukari Yakumo" for herself.

But none of it actually does prove that Maribel IS Yukari,

How do I prove Maribel is Yukari?  Why, by showing some aspect of Yukari Yakumo that could only be there if she was Maribel Hearn.  For this, I'll have to go to something that would truly give a look into Yukari herself.

[Drake]

No offense, and ilu for grouping all the info up in one post, but pretty much anyone who's read the books and pieced together miscellaneous information and/or sweeped Touhouwiki would have gotten to these theories. Even with all this it's technically just "fan speculation" like everything else, even though I agree with you.

[Serela]

Someone who's read lots of the written works by ZUN will know he likes intricate meanings behind things; he's just the sort of person who would do something so complicated like this. And it's very believable.

This has just sorted everything into a very easy to see manner, and lies it out with enough proof to where, especially knowing how ZUN seems to be, that Maribel most likely=Yukari.

Now I've gone from "fan speculation" to "truly think it's right"~

Also, I wonder if they ended up going to the moon afterall, Mary's way. The elixir of immortality would explain why Mary has lived for so long (assuming she is Yukari, which is the whole point of this), although she could probably whip up a fix with her border powers anyway.

[Tiamat]

EDIT:  Please ignore the "spell card comments by ZUN" remarks in this post.  They were actually written by wiki editors trying to make them ZUN-like (they sure managed to fool me!)

...that said, I'm 75% certain that the guy who wrote the comments for Yukari's spell cards long ago came to the same conclusion I did about these cards.

No offense, and ilu for grouping all the info up in one post, but pretty much anyone who's read the books and pieced together miscellaneous information and/or sweeped Touhouwiki would have gotten to these theories. Even with all this it's technically just "fan speculation" like everything else, even though I agree with you.

I'm not finished yet.

Let's take a look at Yukari's spell cards from Perfect Cherry Blossom.



http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom:_Phantasm_Spell_Cards

When I thought about it, I realized this is one of the only chances one gets to see the true Yukari.  These are the cards that she devised and made personally for herself, with no need to hide anything from anyone because they'll never know the truth just from looking at the cards, anyways.  If these spell cards reveal aspects of Yukari that she could only know or have if she were Maribel, that should prove right there that the two are one and the same (and by extension, that Maribel's stories are actually Yukari's origin stories)

Click on that URL and scroll down to Yukari's spell cards, and let's start from the top.
 
Yukari's Spell Card No. 131:  Bounded Field "Curse of Dreams and Reality"

Here is Touhou Wiki's more specific translation of the meaning behind the name of this card.

"(呪い (Noroi): Curse. 呪い (Majinai): Spell. Which of these? Or both?) "

Hmm... does that sound familiar?  Yukari based this card on the time when she was dreaming as Maribel, and unable to figure out which was real (her dream, or her when she's awake.  Or both!). 

" And these days, dream and reality are different, but the same.
They're both the world of dreams and the world of reality, both myself in a dream and myself in reality."  ~Maribel Hearn

But it's a CURSE of Dreams and Reality.  Take a look at Marisa's own analysis of the spellcard from Grimoire of Marisa:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa:_Yukari_Yakumo%27s_Spell_Cards

" A spellcard that uses the danmaku of both an eternally expanding dream and a rapidly shrinking reality. "  ~Marisa's description

The curse of dreams and reality is that one expands while the other shrinks.  Renko herself realizes this will be the case.

" Waking her up from her dream by making her strongly recognize she's not in the world of dream but actually exists in another world. Still... she wouldn't come back to this world again." ~Renko Usami

Rinnosuke himself backs this up in CoLA Chapter 2: Purple Transcending Light, when his "thoughts fly across the border".

" But... I didn?t open my eyes. What if, after seeing the outside world, I couldn?t return to Gensokyo anymore? Humans that are spirited away almost never have a chance to come back again. On the other hand, if I open my eyes believing this to be only a visual and auditory illusion, my thoughts wouldn?t cross the border and would be back to Gensokyo, and I could miss my chance to see the outside world. Which is what I truly wish for?"  ~Rinnosuke Morichika

So why is it a curse?  Renko realized one outcome was good for her, while the other was good for Maribel.  Maribel's dream of Gensokyo would expand, but reality would shrink, until it (and Renko) was gone. In the end, Renko chose the outcome that was good for Maribel, and Maribel (now Yukari) has her golden age Gensokyo.  But she lost her best friend in the process.

Maribel's dreams coming true while she loses her reality, which includes her best friend.  That must be the Curse of Dreams and Reality.

Bonus:  ZUN's afterword in Changeability of Strange Dream includes this statement about the song where Maribel was dreaming of the kid's festival:

~The first track "Kid's Festival" was my own theme in stepping into a stage for talking.
I've composed plenty of theme songs for each character, but it's too embarrassed to act while my own theme is playing.
To tell the truth, this track has a lyric. Ah, a comment for the track is a lyric.
Does a trip between dream and reality have any truth?" ~ZUN

His comments in Perfect Cherry Blossom about Curse of Dreams and Reality includes this statement:

"Heavy streaming, explosions of leaves and petals, watch your step always."

Watch your step when stepping onto the stage!



Yukari's Spell Card No. 132:  Bounded Field "Balance of Motion and Stillness"

" There are no clearings there, the ground is mostly flat and indistinguishable, the bamboo grows diagonally and will drive your sense of balance insane, and even when attempting to purposefully walk straight, before you know it, you'll have returned to where you just started. " ~Perfect Memento in the Strict Sense, Bamboo Forest of the Lost (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Bamboo_Forest_of_the_Lost)

" Though, the bamboo forest sloped a little, which made me lose my sense of balance.
I suppose I ran straight, but I cannot say whether it was true.

I ran for a long distance, but all I could see was the scene I've seen before.
Does this forest lead eternally? Or am I running in the same place?" ~Maribel Hearn, Changeability of Strange Dream

Also, there's this from Yukari's PCB spellcards page:

"Standard trick, homing spirits of curve, never look back." ~ZUN's own comments on this spell card

Which ties into this:

" I glimpsed the glowing place, keeping a watch for my back." ~Maribel Hearn

Maribel looked back, and was greeted by a monster for it.

Clearly, Yukari based this spell card off of her experience in the Bamboo Forest of the Lost.  You lose your balance, and suddenly Motion and Stillness become one and the same.  You keep moving, and yet you never move at all.  Don't look back, or you will see the horror that is chasing you. That was Maribel's dreams of the Bamboo Forest, and that must be the meaning behind the spell card, Balance of Motion and Stillness.


Yukari's Spell Card No. 133:  Bounded Field "Mesh of Light and Darkness"



"But the darkness of the night finally came to an end...

...I stopped running.
I found a scarlet light in the bamboo forest over there."  Maribel Hearn, Changeability of Strange Dream

Logic suggests that the dark blue lasers in this spell card is the darkness.  That means the other lasers are the light.  And what's the color of these lasers of light?  They're red.  In essense, they're *scarlet*.

But let's not forget ZUN's comments about the card from that spell card page:

"Heavy dodging, the mesh is built with laser, don't get caught." ~ZUN, Perfect Cherry Blossom

Don't forget that when the darkness became the scarlet light, Maribel was running for her life so she wouldn't get caught by a monster.

When the darkness of the night finally came to an end, Maribel Hearn found a scarlet light in the bamboo forest, all the while trying to avoid being caught.   She must have used that experience to come up with the spell card, Mesh of Light and Darkness.


Yukari's Spell Card No. 134: Evil Spirits "Xanadu of Straight and Curve"

Touhou Wikia's translator for this card further explains the meaning behind the name of the card.

" (罔両 (魍魎; Moryo): evil spirits of the mountains, rivers, trees, and stones. Xanadu: the summer capital of the old Mongolian Empire, widely known for its splendour.)"  ~Touhou Wikia

It's almost exactly like this text from part 2 of Retrospective 53 Minutes:

" Also, what it made people amaze is that the Shinkansen runs straight without any curves under the ground. From the first station to the last one, you cannot see any sky, sea, mountain, forest, the Sun or the Moon."

The train that Maribel rode to Tokyo had a panoramic theatre that allowed you to enjoy false illusions of the scenery's splendor.  It did this while somehow running straight without any curves under the ground.  Despite the splendour you were seeing, it wasn't the real mountain, sea (rivers), forest (trees) or stone (under ground).  This was the train ride for the trip Maribel treasured so much and was so excited about, but was filled with so much unsettling illusion.  This must be where Yukari got the inspiration for the spell card, Xanadu of Straight and Curve.


While I'm at it, I'll throw in that Yukari's super move spell card in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, " Abandoned Line "Aimless Journey to the Abandoned Station"" which sends a train crashing into her opponent may have been inspired by Maribel's train rides, too.


Yukari's Spell Card No. 135:  Evil Spirits "Yakumo Yukari's Spiriting Away"

" Our true scheme is to seek for the gaps of the boundaries and to dive into another world. It's what they call "Spiriting Away", isn't it?" ~Maribel Hearn, Changeability of Strange Dream

"If I ignore the situation, she must be eaten by youkai in a dream or be spirited away.
Her mentality is wandering about everywhere.
She would be trapped in another world if she didn't think she's in a dream." ~Renko Usami, Changeability of Strange Dream

Well, Maribel finally managed to achive her clan's true scheme.  Of course, Yukari's official profile for PCB mentions another type of spiriting away that involves other humans accidentally falling through the barrier.  So this spell card could possibly be referring to that Spiriting Away.  However, ZUN's comment about the card says it uses teleportation magic, and Yukari is clearly the one doing the teleporting around (IE, diving into another world) as opposed to making you or anyone else dive through, so it would seem the card fits Maribel's own idea of spiriting away (diving into another world) than the one that humans currently have (people simply wandering through Yukari's fluctuations in the barrier)


Spell Card No. 136: Evil Spirits "Bewitching Butterfly Living in the Zen Temple"
" I'm not sure which one is true; a butterfly in the night or human being in the daytime...
Considering the sense in these days, they're both true.

I ran for a long distance, but I don't feel any fatigue.
It's because I moved as if I flew over the sky? Did I become a butterfly?" ~Maribel Hearn, Changeability of Strange Dream

" Because you can never separate the dream from the reality; Also the human from butterfly(*23)." ~Maribel Hearn, Retrospective 53 Minutes

" (*23) This respect came from the story Zhuangzi Dreamed He Was a Butterfly "" ~Footnote 23, the word from ZUN himself

" Zhuangzi's philosophy was very influential in the development of Chinese Buddhism, especially Ch?n (also known as Zen)."  ~Wikipedia's article on Zhuanzi, The Butterfly Dream section

Maribel dreamt she was a butterfly, based on the Zen butterfly story.  Maribel (Yukari) herself is the Bewitching Butterfly Living in the Zen Temple.


Yukari's Spell Card 137: Sinister Spirits "Double Black Death Butterfly"

" Unlike the butterflies of eternal dreams, these butterflies give the impression that they gather at the smell of rotten flesh.  How bizarre." ~Marisa Kirisame, The Grimoire of Marisa

"Lycoris is so horrible! I hate it since my childhood.
"The entrance is a gravestone with the most lycorises at the ghostly field." Somehow I said so suddenly."

"I tried touching the grave, pulling up the inscription plaques other things.
She looked up the sky and murmured 02:27:41. How unsettling...
After all, it seems I'm the only one acting like a grave-robber."  ~Maribel, Ghostly Field Club

We already know that Maribel is the butterfly (and ZUN placed this spell card after the Zen Butterfly spell card just to make sure you remember that).  Yukari must have based this off of the time when Maribel had to gather at the place where there are the most lycorises (a dead person's flower.  IE, representation of rotting flesh) and at gravestones as well (where dead people, IE, rotting flesh, are buried).  In this case, once again, Maribel herself was the Double Black Death Butterfly.

ZUN's comments once again throw in an extra reference.

" Heavy dodging, double rotation magic of major angle, depend on yourself." ~ZUN about this spellcard

Back at the Graveyard, in the end, Maribel was the one left to fiddling with the tombstone.  Renko just watched.

" After all, it seems I'm the only one acting like a grave-robber." ~Maribel



We'll skip Spell Card 138: Shikigami Ran, because that one's obviously not applicable.  It's a spell card where Yukari uses her Shikigami, Ran.  Obviously.


Yukari's Spell Card 139: "Boundary of Humans and Youkai"

"Or rather, was it a human's face? Yes, it was. It was a human's face, I believe.
Do you know some big mouses that have a human's face?" ~Maribel about the rabbit/mouse youkai that was chasing her in Changeability of Strange Dream

"Why did I still hide even she sent the mouse away for me? It's because..."

I gazed at the girl's eyes, which were in scarlet gleam like the mouse...
"...You cannot call it human.""  ~Maribel about Mokou (a human) in Changeability of Strange Dream

When things become mystical and crazy enough (rabbit girls, Mokou's fire magic), Maribel notices that it becomes impossible to tell the difference between human and youkai, and both become fearful beings.  This also describes the spell card well, as it starts out when you trapped in a golden barrier, and the golden barrier shrinks over time, showing that the difference between human and youkai is shrinking as well.

Of course, one can argue that instead, this spell card is referring to Yukari's PCB quote to Reimu and NOT to Maribel.  Before Reimu fights Yukari in the expert stage, Yukari tries to scare her by saying the border between human and youkai is thin at their location.  So where is the proof that this spell card is actually relating to Maribel's experience with a human and a youkai?  That would once again be in ZUN's comments about the spell card.

"Heavy dodging, stay within the gilded cage, wait for time of freedom." ~ZUN's comments about this spell card from the Touhou Wikia PCB spell card page

". After that, the big mouse ran away... and so did the girl. I hid for a long time not to be found by them. Why did I still hide even she sent the mouse away for me?" ~Maribel describing her dream to Renko

Maribel hid for a long time.  That is, she waited for the time of freedom (IE, wait for them to leave so she can finally escape).  This particular spell card seems to be referring to when Maribel herself was trapped at a place where the Boundary of Humans and Youkai was thin, and had to wait for her own freedom.


Yukari's Spell Card 141: Yukari's Arcanum "Danmaku Bounded Field"

A somewhat speculative note about this card:  I think this is meant to be Yukari's ultimate spell card, despite not being the last card.  The last card Yukari uses in PCB is Yukari's Arcanum "Danmaku Bounded Field".  However, it is a theatrical spell card, meant for play and looks more than anything else.  This is confirmed in Grimoire of Marisa, where Marisa uses it as an example of a theatrical spell card in the afterword.

"Like "Danmaku Bounded Field" and "Imperishable Shooting", most theatrical types tend to mirror the ability of the user so it's fun to watch. These kinds of danmaku exist for no reason other than the basic idea behind the spellcard rules." ~Grimoire of Marisa

Danmaku Bounded Field exists for no reason other than the basic idea behind the spellcard rules.  Actually, this is obvious even from the name of the card.  DANMAKU Bounded Field.  Yukari's basically just finishing her fight with you with a celebration of the spell card rules for fun.  So this spell card (and her last word spell card in Imperishable Night, Profound Danmaku Field, which even comes with ZUN's own commentary that it's basically a celebration of shooting games.

"Danmaku Bounded Field is the kaleidoscope of everlasting shooting games, Yukari's tip of finger decides its life and death. How frail humans... and shooting games are." ~ZUN

...anyways, as it's a celebration of spell card rules (possibly because Yukari's the one that wrote the spell card rules in the first place, but whatever), it doesn't have anything to do with Maribel.  I'm simply pointing out that it and her last word card in Imperishable Night are not meant to be her most serious cards.  Logic would thus suggest her most serious card is the second last one, then, which is...


Yukari's Spell Card 140: Bounded Field "Boundary of Life and Death"

Well, for now, we can ignore what I speculated about this being Yukari's ultimate spell card.  At any rate, we know this relates to Maribel because Maribel and Renko had a conversation about the Boundary of Life and Death at the end of Magical Astronomy.  There, Renko tells Maribel that she'd drink the elixir of immortality if given the chance, and that it's basically just removing your boundary of life and death.  Yukari probably was inspired to name that spell card after that conversation.  I could leave it at that, but I like to think there's something a bit more... artistic about this card.

Again, what I'm going into now is speculation.  I know I promised you proof, and I like to think I've given you enough proof (goodness knows it's hard to come up with any more proof than Yukari having a spell card called "Bewitching Butterfly in the Zen Temple"), so let me indulge myself with speculation for a bit.

As I've stated, I think Boundary of Life and Death is Yukari's greatest/ultimate spell card.  The Danmaku Bounded Fields are nothing more than theatrical spell cards, and you don't even fight Yukari for the final spellcard Danmaku Bounded Field in PCB.  You just survive for a bit until it ends.  Actually, even ZUN's comments about Danmaku Bounded Field includes the words "life and death.", indicating that Life and Death is the truly important card to Yukari, herself.  Why do I find it poetic for Boundary of Life and Death to be Yukari's greatest spell card?  Again, I warn you that this is a speculation based on speculations.  Now, presumably, if one is to make their ultimate spell card, they would base it on the thing they held most dear to their heart.  So look at when that conversation Maribel had with Renko took place.  It took place right before Maribel looked at the moon on the lake's surface, and realized she could control boundaries to travel to the moon.  In otherwords, Maribel's conversation with Renko about the Boundary of Life and Death likely took place right before Maribel finally awoke with Yukari's powers.  And odds are pretty good that Maribel's time slip happened shortly after, probably as a result of her border powers fully awakening (and Maribel thus fully entering her world of dreams).  What does that mean for this spell card if it's true?

It would mean that Maribel/Yukari's ultimate and greatest spell card, representing the thing most dear and important to her, was made in memory of the last moments she got with Renko.

Well, I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.  I think fact that almost all her spell cards relate to Maribel's experiences prove beyond a doubt that Yukari is Maribel.  At least, I'm convinced 100% that she is.  I hope you are, too!  If not, that's okay, you're still free to believe what you wish.  However, for those of you who are also convinced like me, let me now point out some fun things that I like to think ZUN tossed in, knowing that Yukari is Maribel.  Well, in a bit, perhaps.  Rome wasn't built in a day, you know.  Until my next post, thanks for reading!

[Serela]

It would mean that Maribel/Yukari's ultimate and greatest spell card, representing the thing most dear and important to her, was made in memory of the last moments she got with Renko.

Also in this conversation, Renko says something else notable.

"Immortality doesn't mean absence of death; it means the boundary between life and death disappears, and you are in a state neither alive nor dead. Just as if you were in the living world and the Netherworld at the same time, a Necrophantasia." ~Renko Usami

Necrophantasia, the name of Yukari's theme~

[nintendonut888]

As a big Yukari fan that has often pondered the relationship, let me sum up my thoughts in a concise manner:

You could have simply said the standard connections and Mary getting an idea to go to the moon after looking at the moon's reflection on water (I haven't read the plot of MA so I didn't know that) and you'd be just as convincing as your huge wall of text. Everything else is just circumstantial evidence really, which does not equal proof. Really, I actually wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be true, but this isn't so much "proof using official sources" as "extrapolating a LOT from official sources."

Quite frankly, I really don't think ZUN thought so hard about a story he hadn't written yet (though I know they came out within a year of each other) he made references to it and a story afterwards (that you said probably had no purpose) in the spell cards names, which otherwise rarely if ever have any significance behind them. Or that he carefully plotted out sentences like the one for Mystia. All for Yukarin.

And it's not a huge point, but I should really point out that ZUN didn't make those comments for PCB spell cards; the wiki editors did.

[Anon]

Well, well. Not bad. Some connections were already in my head, but some of your spellcard explanations were... very convincing to say the least. I have to tip my hat to you on picking each and every thing and going into a good amount of detail. Though as the Pastry above me said, some of it is a might circumstancial. Well done nonetheless.

[Tiamat]

Quite frankly, I really don't think ZUN thought so hard about a story he hadn't written yet (though I know they came out within a year of each other) he made references to it and a story afterwards (that you said probably had no purpose) in the spell cards names, which otherwise rarely if ever have any significance behind them.

Making references to a name in stories a year afterwards?  Considering this is the same man who wrote THIS ***FOUR YEARS AFTER PERFECT CHERRY BLOSSOM CAME OUT****, I think you're underestimating ZUN just a wee bit much.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_25


By the way, Ghostly Field Club came out only 2 months after Perfect Cherry Blossom, and odds are pretty good ZUN already had the entire Maribel story planned out at that time (since it has a pretty clear beginning and ending to the arc).  So no, I don't think it's a stretch that he purposefully designed the spell card names with that story in mind ahead of time at all.  Especially when you look at what the guy thought up of for Yukari's name yet waited four entire years before finally spelling it out to everyone (and even then, the ending to the story implies there are still more meanings to Yukari's name that ZUN hasn't revealed yet.  I know I can think of at least one very important one that Rinnosuke failed to spot.  Hint:  The shrine maidens aren't the only "gods" that Yukari's trapping in Gensokyo).

Hey, I'm all ears for any other reasons you can come up with why a boundary youkai (not that there's anything to show there's more than one) is armed with a spell card named "Bewitching Butterfly in the Zen Temple".



An aside:  I know my posts are walls of text, but considering that I'm attempting to analyze the works of a man who writes things like this:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_21

This:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/A_Flower_Blooming_Fragrant_Violet_Every_Sixty_Years

and This:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_3

Can you really blame me for having to be just a bit wordy, myself?

Suffice to say, if you can't stand walls of text, you probably shouldn't be reading a post analyzing the works of a man who's a MASTER at walls of texts in the first place.

And it's not a huge point, but I should really point out that ZUN didn't make those comments for PCB spell cards; the wiki editors did.

I know the editors made some comments about how they translated the names of the spell cards and the meanings of some of those names, but I'm pretty sure the stuff right after "Comment" was written by ZUN.  Isn't that the official commentary you unlock for capturing the spell card?  (I'm... not a particularly GOOD Touhou player, I'll admit, so...)  I mean, what kind of wiki editor writes like that? Oo  "Dispel the shikigami".  "Be praying."  "Listen for the sound.", etc  Compare that to the "Comments" for the spell cards in the demo (where you can't capture spell cards to read about later):

"Comment:  From the earliest version of the demo.

A purely randomized rain of bullets. Sometimes it'll be really easy, sometimes it won't. "


As you can see, the writing style is clearly different, and I was under the impression it was because the latter was just a comment by a random wiki editor while the former was stuff ZUN put in the game after you capture a spell card.

[LHCling]

Don't mind me; I'm just skimming through~

Isn't that the official commentary you unlock for capturing the spell card?  (I'm... not a particularly GOOD Touhou player, I'll admit, so...)

I mean, what kind of wiki editor writes like that? Oo  "Dispel the shikigami".  "Be praying."  "Listen for the sound.", etc

NNNnnnnnnnno.

Every enemy Spell Card in the game has been cataloged in this list. Each one contains a screenshot, the name in both English and Japanese, where you will see it, and a few unofficial comments from our writers.

...while the writing style is indeed different, it might just mean that it comes from another editor.

Quick EDIT: Though, ZUN did use to put comments alongside the attacks in the PC-98 games if that counts for something. He physically described the attack (e.g. a 96-way burst of bullets).
EDIT2: PM'd Pastry regarding the content relevant from the post below.

[nintendonut888]

Maybe I am underestimating ZUN, but I also think you're overestimating him. Once again, you must ask yourself this: Why is ZUN going to such scheming genius lengths for a single character in a series with over a hundred? Sure she's more important than the average character, but you must question the value of it. If Touhou revolved around Yukari this would all be more plausible, but it doesn't. Once again, what I don't buy is how every last element of Yukari was planned to be subtly tied to Maribel, I don't rule out the theory itself.

And, yeah. Imperishable Night is the only game in the series to have official spell comments, discounting Grimoire of Marisa.

Quick EDIT: Though, ZUN did use to put comments alongside the attacks in the PC-98 games if that counts for something. He physically described the attack (e.g. a 96-way burst of bullets).

Proof? I did not know this.

[Tiamat]

Maybe I am underestimating ZUN, but I also think you're overestimating him. Once again, you must ask yourself this: Why is ZUN going to such scheming genius lengths for a single character in a series with over a hundred? Sure she's more important than the average character, but you must question the value of it. If Touhou revolved around Yukari this would all be more plausible, but it doesn't. Once again, what I don't buy is how every last element of Yukari was planned to be subtly tied to Maribel, I don't rule out the theory itself.

Some characters are more important than others, even in a series of 100.  Tell me why does Yukari get 3 chapters of Curiousities of Lotus Asia (and gets to be the dramatic reveal to the ending of another one) devoted to her while Remilia only gets to be a side character in 1 of them (and a waaaay-in-the-background figure in another)?  Tell me why does Yukari get to be the main character and point of view in A Flower Blooming Vagrant Every 60 Years while Yuyuko has yet to have a story from her point of view?  Tell me why does Yukari get to be the main villain (the narrative even calls her that at one point) in Silent Sinner in Blue while Kaguya is mostly just in the background and has like, what, 3 lines in the entire manga?  (By the way, if you haven't read Silent Sinner in Blue yet, Yukari wins.  ...despite being dubbed the villain by the narrator and Reimu saying "The villains never win." in the manga).  Kaguya gets one chapter of Cage in Lunatic Runegate devoted to her point of view and a comedic role in a series not written by ZUN and that's it.

Of course, it's not just Yukari that's among the "important" cast.   Reimu is in every game (besides Aya's camera games) and the entirety of Curiousities of Lotus Asia takes place from Rinnosuke's point of view.  The point is that some characters are more important than others.  Sakuya simply shows up in a lot more games and official works than Mei Ling does.

You say "why should one character be so important in a cast of a hundred?" But what happens when you remove the passerby youkai?  (That's ZUN's own term for them).  After you ditch the Wriggles, the Rumias, and the Aki sisters, you're left with a cast of only... 75?  What about the characters the fandom and even got their day in the limelight in a fighting game but still don't have a big role in a manga or written story?  Once you get rid of the Mei Lings and the Cirnos, you're left with... 50 characters?  What about when you remove the characters who aren't even residents of Gensokyo and generally don't show up much like that like the Shikis and the Ikus?  That's what, 40 characters left now?  How about when you get rid of the characters who are just minions of bigger characters and almost never show up if it doesn't involve their master in any way?  That would remove the Rans and even the Youmous from the list (none of which ever had an official work which starred them or was done from their point of view).  By then you're left with like, what, 30 characters?  After that, we're left with characters who had some pretty decent roles here and there, but still nothing particularly gigantic compared tot he walls of text ZUN tends to write.  Where is Patchouli's Flower Blooming Vagrant Every 60 years?  When does Alice get to be the main villain of an entire manga series?  Why hasn't Suika done anything besides cameo in written stories? 

Oh, by the way, when Yukari first came out, the Touhou series only had like, 20 characters when you don't include the PC98 games.

[nintendonut888]

So basically, for a character to be important, they have to be the star of a written work, stuff that is widely considered to be "periphrial" to the rest of the canon. >_> I really can't deny ZUN focuses on Yukari more than most, but still...that doesn't change any of my points.

And, well, it's obvious we're just going to go into a predictable and cyclical debate if we keep on about this, so why don't we cut this short for other people's sakes?

[E-Nazrin]

I know the editors made some comments about how they translated the names of the spell cards and the meanings of some of those names, but I'm pretty sure the stuff right after "Comment" was written by ZUN.  Isn't that the official commentary you unlock for capturing the spell card?  (I'm... not a particularly GOOD Touhou player, I'll admit, so...)  I mean, what kind of wiki editor writes like that? Oo  "Dispel the shikigami".  "Be praying."  "Listen for the sound.", etc  Compare that to the "Comments" for the spell cards in the demo (where you can't capture spell cards to read about later):

"Comment:  From the earliest version of the demo.

A purely randomized rain of bullets. Sometimes it'll be really easy, sometimes it won't. "


As you can see, the writing style is clearly different, and I was under the impression it was because the latter was just a comment by a random wiki editor while the former was stuff ZUN put in the game after you capture a spell card.

This is only true for Imperishable Night, Shoot the Bullet, and Double Spoiler, which actually have spellcard comments once captured. For kicks and to keep up the theme, wiki editors have put in specifically ZUN-like comments about spellcard names and patterns for other cards that didn't.

I should know - I wrote Letty's.

[Tiamat]

This is only true for Imperishable Night, Shoot the Bullet, and Double Spoiler, which actually have spellcard comments once captured. For kicks and to keep up the theme, wiki editors have put in specifically ZUN-like comments about spellcard names and patterns for other cards that didn't.

I should know - I wrote Letty's.

Ah, so they purposefully tried to make them ZUN-like?  My complements to them.  They certainly managed to fool me.  ...gotta admit that's some scary coincidence for some of those cards, though (then again, maybe the writer just realized those cards already related to Maribel's stories long ago)

So basically, for a character to be important, they have to be the star of a written work, stuff that is widely considered to be "periphrial" to the rest of the canon. >_> I really can't deny ZUN focuses on Yukari more than most, but still...that doesn't change any of my points.

And, well, it's obvious we're just going to go into a predictable and cyclical debate if we keep on about this, so why don't we cut this short for other people's sakes?

Um... so a character starring in a ton of works can't be important because it's just "peripheral" to the canon?  So like, are you saying that just because they're written works and not games themselves that ZUN doesn't think they're important and ZUN doesn't care about them?

I dunno... I'm pretty darn sure the man is POURING HIS EVERY HEART AND SOUL into these things.  Normally, in most games, yea, the written stuff is just there thrown out for cash money or whatever.  But ZUN's a one-man company and like... I mean,

LOOK AT THE STUFF HE WRITES.

The man obviously cares a lot about this stuff.  I mean, just LOOK AT IT.  IT'S INSANE.  When you read these stories, they aren't just throw away stories about some random comic book hero punching the daylights out of a villain.  Every single one of them is chock full of cultural references, philosophical ponderings (yes, "the meaning of life" type of philosophizing.  Just read almost any chapter of Curiousities of Lotus Asia), and  even examinations into what Gensokyo actually IS.

Heck, he even goes out of his way to compose theme songs just for the stuff he writes, sometimes (The Sealing Club got their own theme song that isn't found anywhere in the games.  ZUN confirms he wrote a song specifically to be the Sealing Club's theme song in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red's music section).  Maybe this stuff isn't important to you, but it's obviously important to him.

And it's all written by ZUN himself, too, you know.  This isn't some case of Star Wars where some licensed author is writing the stuff with George Lucas' permission.  This isn't the case of some Squaresoft executive hiring a writer to write some random novel about Cloud just so the company can sell some books and get some money.  This is ZUN himself actually going out of his way to write these things with all his heart and love.

...at any rate, I fail to see how that's relevant.  Your argument was that ZUN couldn't possibly be devoting so many written works and Yukari that Maribel's story couldn't possibly be related to Yukari as well.  What does that have to do with whether or not it's peripheral to the canon?

Besides, your argument that Yukari isn't important just because she's starred in a lot of written works entirely ignores the fact that she's had a huge role in many of the games.

Heck, it's even directly stated in an official work that Yukari is important (or at least, "it can be argued", if you want to get really nitpicky.)

"It can be argued that the fact that a youkai of boundaries exists in Gensokyo, a land surrounded by an enormous boundary, implies that she must have some extremely significant connection to the origin of Gensokyo.
" ~Perfect Memento

Extremely Significant = Important.  Webster's Diciontary confirms this.

If anything, it's the GAMES where the in-game storyline isn't that important.  ZUN himself stated in Perfect Memento's afterward that the game storylines are meant to wrap themselves up within the same game.  This means that if ZUN is to go about doing something with bigger overarching connectinos, he's probably going to do it in a written work instead.

"I want the things relating to the games to complete themselves within the games. " ~ZUN in Perfect Memento's Afterword

Maribel is not related to the games, nor does Yukari's origin have anything to do with the games (directly, at least),  so any particularly big connection of her to Yukari isn't meant to be found in the games, either.

[Garlyle]

According to something else it said that Yukari created Gensokyo when she created a separate phantasmal land for the youkai, oni, and other non-human beings.  So that she's connected to Gensokyo's history is no surprise.



Anyway, overall, my thoughts are that this is ZUN.  ZUN, the man who admitted he didn't know what kind of youkai Shou was supposed to be.

It's hard to tell at any given time if you're underestimating his brilliance... or severely overestimating it and he really is just a drunkard with a huge library of cultural trivia to draw on.

So while Maribel and Yukari do actually have some plausible grounds to be linked in some way; whether being the same person or whatever... until ZUN actually says "Sure, that's right," I'm not taking it as canon.

[Tiamat]

I never stated it was "canon".   The only time I've ever used the word "canon" in my post was that Yukari isn't Yukari's real name, and this IS directly stated, maybe not by ZUN in an interview, but at the very least by ZUN writing the perspective of someone who'd be in a pretty good position to know.

If "canon" can only be defined by what ZUN directly tells the fandom, then obviously, Yukari being Maribel isn't canon because ZUN never directly said that.

However, what about whether or not ZUN himself thinks Yukari is Maribel?  If I phrased it that way, would that be better?




"Let's wake up! There's the changeability of strange dream. Change the world of dream to that of reality!"" ~Renko to Maribel, Changeability's ending

"After all, I represent Gensokyo's reality.  It wouldn't do for a memory to not match reality." ~Yukari to Akyu, Memorizable Gensokyo


So instead of arguing about whether or not it's "canon" by someone's arbitary term of the word, let's ponder whether or not ZUN himself thinks Yukari is Maribel.  I think the above two quotes taken together are a pretty big indication that he does (well, in addition to everything else I've already posted, from Yukari's spellcards to Maribel's moon lake scene)

[nintendonut888]

...

Ah. Ha. Ha. I applaud you. It's interesting to see someone way more into the story than me for once. Garlyle summed it up pretty well. And again, you have to realize that this is a side-project made by a middle-aged drunkard, not someone writing the next great American Japanese novel. Two sentences with similar words =/= proof of any sort. You say taken together those two quotes are an indication ZUN believes Yukari is Maribel. However, take them apart, put them in context, and they barely resemble each other.

[Tiamat]

...

Ah. Ha. Ha. I applaud you. It's interesting to see someone way more into the story than me for once. Garlyle summed it up pretty well. And again, you have to realize that this is a side-project made by a middle-aged drunkard, not someone writing the next great American Japanese novel. Two sentences with similar words =/= proof of any sort. You say taken together those two quotes are an indication ZUN believes Yukari is Maribel. However, take them apart, put them in context, and they barely resemble each other.

Would a middle-aged drunkard write this?

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Music_Columns#Introduction

or this?

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Introduction_to_%22Touhou%22_Game_Design

And a wayword middle-aged drunkard wrote this, too

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Shoot_the_Bullet:_Afterword


If this is the way wayward drunkards write, the world needs to drink more.





The context of the second sentence is that Yukari is about to change Akyu's perfect memento to match what Yukari deems to be reality.  In essence, she's about to edit the heck out of it to help shape Gensokyo into what she wants it to be (at the very least, the LIE that the Hakurei Shrine is desolate on the outside world is in Perfect Memento (it's confirmed to actually be a very bustling place when Rinnosuke briefly visits it), and if Yukari really wanted Perfect Memento to be true, she would have editted that part.  Heck, she's probably the one that made that lie in the first place)

Maribel has already indicated that she too wants to mould Gensokyo into what she deems to be a "good dream instead of a bad dream".  Perhaps the two don't "resemble" each other, but since when do cause and effect statements do?

At any rate, the OTHER (and more important) context of the second statement is pretty clear.  YUKARI BELIEVES SHE REPRESENTS GENSOKYO'S REALITY.   I'm surprised you don't see the connotations of that.

[Tengukami]

Would a wayward drunkard write this?

Do you know how many of history's greatest writers had really severe alcohol problems?

BTW I love this thread.

[Tiamat]

Do you know how many of history's greatest writers had really severe alcohol problems?

YES.  THANK YOU.

Why are you all saying ZUN can't write something intricate and connected for being a wayward drunkard when many of history's greatest writers were drunkards?  If anything, ZUN being a drunkard probably INCREASES the chance that he'd come up with something like Yukari being Maribel and all the convuluted connections it implies.


Yukari being Maribel is simply too complicated for the normal sober mind to come up with.  ZUN being a drunkard is precisely the thing he needs to be in order to do such a ridiculously overcomplicated thing.  And history backs this up!  (seriously)

[Stuffman]

Even though it's hard to argue against it, I really hope Yukari and Maribel aren't the same person because it probably leads into the completely asinine scenario in which Gensokyo really is just a dream. (The constant use of "dream" references, especially in the PC-98 years, is distressingly in line with it...)

[Tiamat]

Even though it's hard to argue against it, I really hope Yukari and Maribel aren't the same person because it probably leads into the completely asinine scenario in which Gensokyo really is just a dream. (The constant use of "dream" references, especially in the PC-98 years, is distressingly in line with it...)

Nah, there's no need to worry about that.  Whether or not Gensokyo is a dream was already answered by Renko in Changeability of Strange Dream.  I'll pluck out the relevant quotes.

"It's obvious that Mary went to the inside of the boundary unconsciously, and she thinks she's in a dream."

"She would be trapped in another world if she didn't think she's in a dream."

"And the other way is waking her up from her dream by making her strongly recognize she's not in the world of dream but actually exists in another world."


Rinnosuke visits the outside world in a dream, too (in a Yukari-related story, to boot *cough cough*).  I'm not exactly sure how it works (I suspect something is being lost in the translation), but apparently it's a typical enough concept that both Renko and Rinnosuke are immediately able to figure out what's ACTUALLY going on.  Apparently, when you enter another world, your THOUGHTS are what decides whether or not you get anchored into it.  So Gensokyo isn't actually Maribel's dream, but is another world she accidentally entered while dreaming, and the final thing that will determine which she will remain in forever depends on what her THOUGHTS think is the actual reality

(and travelled through time while doing it, apparently.  She goes farther and farther back in time with each passing dream, too, it appears, since the first dream is the Scarlet Devil Mansion, which only appeared in Gensokyo recently, while the last dream is several hundred years ago according to Perfect Memento.  And, of course, by the time we get to Yukari, it's 1,200 years ago)

That's what I was able to get out of it, at least.  Again, something's probably being lost in the translation.

"But... I didn?t open my eyes. What if, after seeing the outside world, I couldn?t return to Gensokyo anymore? Humans that are spirited away almost never have a chance to come back again. On the other hand, if I open my eyes believing this to be only a visual and auditory illusion, my thoughts wouldn?t cross the border and would be back to Gensokyo, and I could miss my chance to see the outside world. Which is what I truly wish for?

That?s right, wasn?t my goal to obtain fuel? I did have a clear objective. I didn?t want to get lost in the outside world, only to visit it to complete a task. I had to leave my thoughts at Kourindou?no, at Gensokyo?and let only my body cross over there. Yes, that?s a feat humans couldn?t pull off? but I?m sure I could. "  ~Rinnosuke, Curiousities of Lotus Asia, http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_11

[Garlyle]

Do you know how many of history's greatest writers had really severe alcohol problems?

A lot, but not all drunkard writers are good, either.

I don't think for a moment that ZUN isn't an intelligent man with a unique insight into things and a crapload of lore to draw out of, but I do honestly think in many ways that he prefers simpler, more direct characters and plotlines to something deep or convoluted.  He's had lots of time to create something like that if he wanted... but ultimately, he chooses not to.  The times where he seemingly does, it's always not entirely by his hand.

To simplify it by example, look at Sakuya.  It's not that there isn't possible explanations for her background, and it's not that ZUN never considered on it.  He probably pondered tonnes of explanations while designing her, but in the end, decided, "Well, I don't think it matters too much, and it's a nice mystery to think on if I don't decide, isn't it?"

I get the feeling from ZUN he does this with a great many things - he ponders on a huge number of possibilities, but in the end, very few become certainties, and the rest are left drifting as ideas and possibilities with no decision ever glued down... for a reason.  He actively decides not to decide.

To put it in a way ZUN might through one of his works - "There was no truth, only an endless number of possibilities, until you decided on a truth."  Kind of abstract, but somehow, that's how I think ZUN thinks about a great many of things.

[Esifex]

Oh damn I need to read this in it's entirety. But I gotta go to work now

*bookmark*

[Tengukami]

Honestly, I love the mysteries ZUN leaves us with. It stimulates precisely these sorts of discussions.

[OkashiiKisei]

First off, I'm sad I'm not the 'Wall of Text' King of MotK anymore. You deserve it, Tiamat. *hands over crown*

Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with you Tiamat. Brilliant. Just brilliant. It is absolutely flawless. I fully believe Maribel is Yukari now. I fully support your statement.

But who is to say Renko didn't come with Maribel after all? Who is to say Maribel didn't take Renko with her and turned her into the very first Hakurei Shrine Maiden? Or maybe Renko got stuck on the Lunar Capital after Maribel got automatically whisked away to Gensokyo (assuming it happened immediately there after). Renko may have taken Hourai Elixir there, and is now searching for Maribel (or maybe the current ruler of the Lunar Capital). Oh, so much possibilities. If Renko truly is in the Lunar Capital, it would make a perfect tie-in for the next Touhou game. A Touhou game starring Yukari, with the final boss being this Lunar Renko. This would prove Yukari=Maribel.

Maybe I am underestimating ZUN, but I also think you're overestimating him. Once again, you must ask yourself this: Why is ZUN going to such scheming genius lengths for a single character in a series with over a hundred? Sure she's more important than the average character, but you must question the value of it. If Touhou revolved around Yukari this would all be more plausible, but it doesn't. Once again, what I don't buy is how every last element of Yukari was planned to be subtly tied to Maribel, I don't rule out the theory itself.

And, yeah. Imperishable Night is the only game in the series to have official spell comments, discounting Grimoire of Marisa.

Proof? I did not know this.

Donut, you forget one vital thing:

Yukari s basically the God of Gensokyo. She is by far the MOST important character in the entire series, because she CREATED the world. The human biblical figures get much screentime in the bible, and are 'basically' the main characters, yet about who is the book about? GOD. And He only acts from the side lines. Yukari is the God of Gensokyo, with Reimu and Marisa as the Biblical figures. Yukari works from the sidelines, and Reimu gets the most screentime, but it is STILL about Yukari.

And who gets a place in the history books? The ruler, or the soldier? Why do you think kings, presidents and what not hardly ever fight in the war themselves, letting soldiers fight for them? Now who got written down: the president who made all the plans, has the goal, the ideas and the MOTIVATION to stand up against overarching forces, or the soldier who just does what is said to him. The soldier may be the one who kills the last enemy, it is the ruler who gets the recognition BECAUSE HE ORGANIZED IT ALL. That soldier may have been sitting at home picking his nose while the invaders came if the ruler wasn't there. Reimu is the soldier, Yukari is the ruler. Reimu may be the main focus and the one who fights, it is YUKARI who plans it all, makes it all possible. Thus, she gets written down into the history books. And why is a normal human shrine maiden, of which there have been HUNDREDS of in the past years, deserve a intricate backstory more than the one who leads her, had shaped the world and has lived for thousands of years?! Yukari is clearly THE most influential person in the entirety of Gensokyo, so she isn't just a normal side character! She is practically the MAIN character.

And ZUN is a far more philosophical, intelligent, deep, thoughtful and complex than your average human being. His alcoholic tendencies have nothing to do with that. He would bviously start writing when he is sober. Do you think he is drunk 24/7? And even his alcoholic tendencies have given him lots of inspiration, like lots of writers before him! You severely underestimate the genius that is ZUN. He thinks very hard about his work, and loves it dearly. He puts loads of effort into the games and the stories behind them. He makes ginormous, fantastic stories with lots of philosophical debates. He is far from a shoddy writer. He puts so incredibly much backstory between the characters, races and worlds, as seen in Perfect Memento and many other works. If ZUN was casual and didn't bother about the dept of his characters he wouldn't have made those stories. He would have kept it at the games, without any/hardly any supplementary material.

I think its is perfectly possible that ZUN was planning this out for very long. Great movie and literary works have sequels of years apart, most of which there wasn't any indication of there would be a sequel, yet it came, perfectly tying in plot points and expanding the story. Some of these things were completely planned out, not made up on the spot. Lord of the Rings had loads of characters tthat didn't seem important, but they were expanded upon greatly in supplementary works. Sauron in the Silmarillion gets expanded upon greatly, and it ties in perfectly with the rest of the story. It was written by Tolkien himself, so he truly thought it all out (his son published it because Tolkien passed away before he could publish it). ZUN truly thought out his characters well, and he might have had this idea all the way back at Yukari's development phases. It is very truly a part of her character. And like I said at the very beginning of my post, all this backstory may be one big tie-in for a future game, where the reveal about Yukari's identity will be made, and Renko will make an in-game appearance.

And you are completely dense if you still don't believe this even when there was complete, logical, and undeniable indication that Maribel was about to use the moon gate. It is RIGHT in front of your nose?! How ELSE do you thinj Maribel will get on the Moon? Why else would she make that statement? SHE HAS TO BE YUKARI. And if you deny the moon gate part you are just being ignorant.

[Bias Bus]

I commend you for taking the time to map all this out to prove once and for all that Maribel = Yukari. Normally, my absolute HATRED of this theory (and many others) would have me come off as an asshole jerkface but I see no reason to be as such given the immense amount of work this had to have taken.

But I'm afraid I'm not so easily convinced, unless ZUN himself gives us a WoG and directly tells us Maribel is Yukari then I'm not going to believe this. And even if this all is true, I'd have to agree with Stuffman; The possibility of having Gensokyo be as nothing but a dream just doesn't sit with me all that good. More in the fact that;

"You mean to tell me that all that shit that happened...all that stuff we seen...ALL those colorful characters...were all a fucking DREAM!?"

"Yeop, funny aint it?"

"..."

I don't know about any of you, but...I'd rather not have that scenerio applied to any of this. It seems like a HUGE dickmove given how long we've messed around with Gensokyo as a whole.

[Helepolis]

Yukari s basically the God of Gensokyo. She is by far the MOST important character in the entire series, because she CREATED the world. The human biblical figures get much screentime in the bible, and are 'basically' the main characters, yet about who is the book about? GOD. And He only acts from the side lines. Yukari is the God of Gensokyo, with Reimu and Marisa as the Biblical figures. Yukari works from the sidelines, and Reimu gets the most screentime, but it is STILL about Yukari.

I hardly doubt it. The Hakurei border is announced to be the most important border to be maintained. See the issue about killing the shrine maiden in a danmaku battle. (Spell card discussion thread). We don't actually know Yukari created Gensokyo or not. It is actually quite hard to define Gensokyo as people have different opinions about the "area".

And why is a normal human shrine maiden, of which there have been HUNDREDS of in the past years, deserve a intricate backstory more than the one who leads her, had shaped the world and has lived for thousands of years?! Yukari is clearly THE most influential person in the entirety of Gensokyo, so she isn't just a normal side character! She is practically the MAIN character.

Reimu is not an ordinary shrine maiden. I think if I recall correctly, she has the power to invoke gods into her body and borrow their strength. Again here the role of the Hakurei is very important in Gensokyo itself.

And ZUN is a far more philosophical, intelligent, deep, thoughtful and complex than your average human being. - - - - - You severely underestimate the genius that is ZUN. He thinks very hard about his work, and loves it dearly. He puts loads of effort into the games and the stories behind them.

Subjective point of view, I partially don't agree, people mark him that way. It was said above that he didn't know what to do with Toramaru Shou. Also in his UFO Interview he does show he does research and plenty of thinking about the characters and their songs, but I don't call it philosophical; more like creative thinking.

He puts so incredibly much backstory between the characters, races and worlds, as seen in Perfect Memento and many other works. If ZUN was casual and didn't bother about the dept of his characters he wouldn't have made those stories. He would have kept it at the games, without any/hardly any supplementary material.

You are missing the key point here. If you read through to PMiSS it will answer basic questions about the character. Here is the downside, while PMiSS is pretty vast and detailed it will also rise too many questions. Questions impossible to answer because simply nobody knows. You end up in these type of discussions like Tengukami mentions before me. Not to forget, PMiSS only covers up to PoFV and BAiJR covers only up to IN. A shame because the profile translations isn't telling us much about the characters past PoFV.

I think its is perfectly possible that ZUN was planning this out for very long. Great movie and literary works have sequels of years apart, most of which there wasn't any indication of there would be a sequel, yet it came, perfectly tying in plot points and expanding the story.

What movie?

I still don't believe Yukari is Maribel or visa versa. One of the reasons is because Yukari is able to enter the real world and Gensokyo, attaining her senses and personality and Maribel cannot. She can only "see" the boundaries (according to profile) which is extremely vague explained and can be interpret in many forms. I skimmed through Tiamat's posts, but aside from what we already know, nothing knew is mentioned. Only connections are trying to be made to come to a conclusion.

Solid proof will be never available about any character, never. The main reason why touhou has a vast community is not because there is so much known, but there is so much unknown. Like Tewi mentions in "Why did she leave the miniature garden, the Oni is out" .

[Tengukami]

I personally lean towards a David Lynch style of explaining the Maribel/Yukari thing: two people in the same body, each unaware of the other. (This was the vehicle for Lost Highway.) I have absolutely no evidence for this; I just like the creep factor of it.

[Garlyle]

Honestly, I love the mysteries ZUN leaves us with. It stimulates precisely these sorts of discussions.

Yup.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say, in the end; I think ZUN deliberately leaves things like this a mystery, with many possibilities that he considers likely and very things he considers certain or truth.  And part of the fun of being a Touhou fan is in those spots where he won't say or doesn't even know himself.