How did you LEARN about Touhou?

[Ghaleon]

Graphics by far is pretty much just a word to any real game player.
I rather play a fun 2-d pixel art game than a junky full 3-d mega realistic graphic game that is boring.

Seems the more "real" game get to looking the more lame they become.
Case in point the Final Fantasy series that slowly seems to be dying.

I agree with you 90%.
I still remember when ff7 came out everyone was amazed with the graphics cuz they were 3d, but I thought, and I still think it is the worst looking square game of all time. Sorry, but visible polygons bigger than an Atari pixel ARE NOT GOOD LOOKING. To make matters worse the animation looked really twitchy and people had seizures half the time.. ugh.

I'll play a game that's fun regardless of how weak the graphics are mostly (one of my fave examples is warlords battlecry 2, terrible graphics for its time but damn was the gameplay really cool).

Sometimes graphics are important IMO though. For example, If I'm going to play a 3d castlevania (for the PS. I personally like lament of innocence and curse of darkness BTW, I wish they made more PS castlevanias instead of just gameboy ones), I WILL expect some nice goth-like art, stained glass windows, etc. There's a little bit of fun when it comes to exploring the castle. Curse of darkness had its cool moments, but for the most part it was a step down from lament of innocence. It's a shame you couldn't have the former's decorations, with the latter's camera viewing ability.

So while I can really enjoy a game no matter how bad the graphics are pretty much (there are other things about ff7 I didn't like, such as the snores-ville difficulty, and really shitty music. yes I think it's shitty, and I hate that god-awful fake harmonica/organ thing they used to hell), some games I'll be a sad panda if the graphics aren't good in it (or at least aesthetically good, I don't care about texture quality/polygon count good).

[Ghaleon]

The SNES era had the best Final Fantasy and the best Final Fantasy villains.
Kefka and Exdeath... (Question: Did Golbez become good at the end of FF 4?)
PSX era was OK, too, but PS2 era just sucked.

I actually enjoy my ps2 on average more than my ps1. But to each their own.

[Anonymity]

Ghaleon, speaking of ps castlevanias, Dracula X chronicles (psp) is meant to be pretty good ^^

Its a 3d remake of rondo of blood, with another game unlockable (think its original SotN)

Anyway, just to try and divert the thread back on topic ^_^

That "HARDEST GAME BOSS EVER LOLOLOL!!!11" video or whatever it was. Mushishishishi whatever. Then linked to a touhou video, watched them for a while, then found a video of Magic Sign "Stardust Reverie" and I was captivated

[Quintafeira12]

I rather play a fun 2-d pixel art game than a junky full 3-d mega realistic graphic game that is boring.

If only magazines would stop giving Disgaea games bad ratings for this...

I actually enjoy my ps2 on average more than my ps1. But to each their own.

I could say the same to a more actual aproach with Ps2 and Ps3... But considering what sorts of games we have on the PS3... Remember me mentioning "Brown"? so yeah...

[RainfallYoshi]

I'll agree that the Final Fantasy series took a dive after IX. I consider the true FF series to be I-IX since those are the ones that are truly what the series is about. After that Square just decided to change up too many things and it wasn't the same.

As for graphics, it's generally the last thing I look for in a game. I take into account the important things first, like general gameplay, storyline (if applicable), and replayability.

Some of the best examples of this are SNES Final Fantasy, Sonic the Hedgehog 1-3 & Knuckles, Cave Story, and of course, Touhou.

Sure, these games have great graphics, but a lot of gamers today frown on anything that isn't in-your-face shiny 3D with 10 shades of blood and visible grass blades.

[Chainsaw Guitar]

During my addiction to Enemy Controller videos, I came across Kaiba's Go Through The Duel. Thought the song used was awesome and went to the source. Took me a while to actually get into it though. If it weren't for this guy I probably would have procrastinated playing until I lost interest.

[Slaves]

Marisa stole the precious thing
Make us Your Brides
Mc Roll
Finally search "Embodiment of Scarlet Devil" on Google
Thou art Touhoufag

Nothing special at all.

[Zengeku]

Graphics by far is pretty much just a word to any real game player.
I rather play a fun 2-d pixel art game than a junky full 3-d mega realistic graphic game that is boring.

How incredibly true. I often have to listen to bullshit in that department. Take pretty much any game that have come out in this generation. Whenever i would play it together with my friend, i would get a lot of comments about texture pop-in, lousy texture quality, glitches, clipping etc. and its so annoying. As if i don't see it! Just shut up already, i'm trying to enjoy a game!

I think graphics are hopelessly overrated. That's one of the reasons i love Touhou. It doesn't show you realistically rendered environments and amazing physics. Instead it shows you how little that does for a game.

I'd say next generation graphics are nothing more than costy special effects meant to draw your attention away from how boring the game actually is. And i'd almost say that it works. I have a tendency to give boring games more of a chance if their graphics are good compared to games which graphics doesn't match. I'm actually kind of ashamed by that.

All my friends only play games that are trendy or popular. wahh.

I know exactly how you feel. Its hard as hell to make people even try a Touhou game. And of course, general reaction is: Die at Imperishable Night Stage 1 on Easy. Shitty game. Naturally.

In my class there is a girl who went as far to call Touhou nothing more than a hyper-advanced Space Invaders with a weak plot added to it and of course, here goes the stereotype: perversion. Of course, if its all girls its bound to be a perv game. I keep saying that the game is only as perverted as the person who plays it but i keep getting the same disrespect.

I wanted to respect her playing World of Warcraft but to a certain extend, i just want to stop respecting it. Respect works both ways, bitch.

There is also another thing that might prevent people from giving Touhou a chance. They are afraid of difficulty. Some might refuse and argue that they have beat Halo 3 on legendary.

To that i usually ask: "Did you do it without continues?", "Would you have done it, if it wasn't because of achievement points?" and stuff like that.

Besides you can just use continues until you succeed.

I'm sometimes told that i have no life. Well howabout yourself huh? Mining wood in Runescape, doing raids in WoW, playing CoD online grinding sniper rifle headshots in order to get a golden sniper? Who is it that doesn't have a life?

[Vile Lasagna]

I am a DIEHARD fan of 2D oldschool games. Megaman, Castlevania, more recently Touhou... and I will state right now that those that say that graphics do not make a difference SHOULD BE SHOT.  It feels as if there is an assumption that graphics are irrelevant and bad, which is a lie since Touhou, just for startes is FUCKING BEAUTIFUL. The colours, the patterns... it all draws you into that experience of immersion. And 3D graphics, CLEARLY people are ignoring God of War, Prince of Persia, Unreal and the like... The point is that you have many games in which good graphics are used as an excuse to try to distract the player from a very bad gameplay or plotline. And we can ALL think of numerous examples for that. More recently, added to good graphics is online gameplay. And I guess Haze and Halo are out there as DEFINITE proof that Graphics+Netplay will NOT excuse visceral flaws, yet Halo is a good thing in that it shows that even the crappiest things CAN be over-hyped to the point that you have a legion of people actually defending that it is good and completely not a remake of, let's say, UT2004, without any major improvements or innovation (except perhaps the rechargeable shields thing). With the difference that UT2004 felt a lot like a remake of Quake3 (despite the fact that it has the original UT behind it) and both these games have an awesome thing where they clearly state what they are and present themselves as shiny multiplayer games with some single player mode as an added feature (while H&H try to make is believe there is some kind of REAL single player mode and then fail MISERABLY to deliver it).
The thing with Touhou, Megaman and Castlevania is that the games ARE good. And the graphics are a bonus. It's all about the gameplay. That's why capcom can release Megaman 9 with NES-like graphics and it is STILL good. If you release Halo3 with Doom graphics you're set for the HARDEST FAIL EVER, cause that's the only thing THAT game has got. I think it's also silly to pretend we have not seen the graphic improvement on the Touhou series. Each game IS more sophisticated than the other and ZUN does make an effort to progress it, but he doesn't lose the core.
The thing with Final Fantasy has not to do with graphics since they are getting really awesome but they have lost of the pizazz from FF7 and FFT, and graphics are NOT what Final Fantasy is about, so that increase in graphical quality will be good but will not excuse utterly boring plotlines and characters as the ones we had on FFXII, which had LOTS OF AWESOME ALL AROUND but failed terribly at making something out of good scenario, graphics and system. If it had FF6-like graphics, it WOULD make a difference, because the game would lose one of it's GOOD things that try to hold the whole piece together in the absence of a solid core.
Each genre has its specific needs and strengths but regardless, graphics will make a difference because we all LIKE to look at pretty graphics the only thing is that a bad game that looks good is still a bad game. But if you want to make an assertion for yourself, just think if you'd nor rather have, I dunno, the PC98 touhou series remade with better graphics? I know it WOULD look better.

[Ghaleon]

blah blah.

I agree with your argument, but I don't really agree with some of your minor points that don't really matter.

Graphics ARE important... But to a real gamer (gamer gamer, people who play counterstrike and only counterstrike 20 hours a day aren't gamers, they're CS fanboys), they just aren't a determining factor in what makes a game a classic in our hearts.

I never got into halo much, but I don't know if I disliked it cuz the game sucked.. I just prefered ut myself >=P. I never liked fps games at all actually until ut. The reasons why are too numerous to count. But one example imo is that UT shares alot in common with Touhou in the fps genre.

I mean, Touhou is considered "a shooting game". However nobody really has fun in touhou because they are shooting stuff, the fun is in the dodging stuff. Play games like gradius, and you're always having to aim to "shoot the core", or r-type, and you have to simply MUST destroy this block, enemy, part, etc by this period of time or you're dead no matter what your dodging skill is at (and have your force in a certain position at a certain point of time). while dodging is indeed important for both games,on the scales with "shooting" on one end and "dodging" on the other, they have alot more emphasis on the shooting part than Touhou imo.

I feel the same thing with UT. The really great players aren't the ones who can get a headshot in less than a second a mile away, or whatever. The really good ones are the ones who can not get headshot when 5 snipers are aiming at him as he's running with the flag across an open field. Or someone who can outrun 8 guys chasing him by making creative uses out of dodging and walljumping. other fps games don't reward a player so much for being skilled in that regard. Imo that is the "hidden" innovation of some of these games that make them stand out.

As for FF7 though.. bleh. I was a ff fan since 1, which I got when it was new with my relatively new copy of "rad racer" (square's first game for nintendo I believe, not an rpg! zomg). I've not been a Square bandwagon jumper by any stretch of the imagination. But FF7 failed to impress me like the rest of the series did. And I'm not just talking about square in general. RPGS in general, failed to impress me as much as they did in the SNES era (golden age of RPGS imo). I can respect people who enjoy ff7. I just don't see how anybody can think it's god's gift to man in terms of story (how is it any better than countless other rpg stories? I just don't see how), graphics (umm.. polygon's larger than the infamous Atari 2600 square do NOT look good just cuz they are in 3d), Sound (Sorry, but the sound quality of early psx games was a let down too), etc. I don't want to bash anybody's fave game. I'm just saying that it's not the absolute #1 that so many people seem to think it is. Granted, the materia system is pretty much the only experimental combat mechanic I really liked over all the straight cut mechanics every rpg had before its time. It's a shame they made future ones like in ff8 fail soooo hard when it comes to battle mechanics. On the bad side though I really really don't like 3 character parties. I find they involve a helluva lot less strategy than rpgs which use more than 3. I don't know why 3 is the magic number with so many modern rpgs (my biggest beef with chrono trigger when it was new).

sorry for the excessive rambling >=P...This is really a hot topic for me.

edit: just realized this was in help me, Elrin forums, sorry if that's considered too offtopic, or perhaps its standard to simply move topics that go this direction. dunno.

[RainfallYoshi]

Pretty much what Ghaleon said.

Sure, graphics are an important factor in games, but truly it's one of the last things I consider in any game I'm looking to buy.

There's great games that have horrible graphics and theres awful games with great graphics (a lot of today's games mirite?).

[Alphanish]

I'm so confused are we talking about the importance of graphical quality in games or how we learned about Touhou?

Well anyway i found out about Touhou looking looking up onion and cheese pie and found a link to the overdrive video. and little by little over a years time i discovered Touhou.

[Cadmas]

I'm so confused are we talking about the importance of graphical quality in games or how we learned about Touhou?

This forum tends to greatly get off topic in just about every topic.

[Vile Lasagna]

The more off topic you get, the more points. Push for the high score!

Also: By UT you mean Unreal or Urban Terror? I don't think there ever was wall jump in Unreal.

But yeah, what I mean is that it always feels like people put it into a way that "graphics may be disregarded", which is completely bullshit, the real problem is some developers thinking that having good graphics will be any excuse for making a shitty game as we ALL know that is even MORE bullshit.
I know that however awesome they are, games like Ookami and Shadow of the Colossus, for instance, would not have captivated me in the same way without their amazing graphics, and that's not even a doubt. When I sit down to play something like that I KNOW I'm there with the intent to be amazed. Ookami itself has a lot going on that excuses a whole bunch of shit that could be way better but it is still an amazing game and the graphics are certainly one of the things that make it so.

[Zengar Zombolt]

My case was simple enough. I went to Danbooru, to search for some /m/aterial and contribute to an i/m/agedump. But suddenly, every image on the front page (And beyond that) had a recurring tag: Touhou. Cure investigating, going to Wikipedia, then Youtube, then the Touhou wiki, and to play the games themselves.

EDIT: I just discovered I had been introduced to a Touhou subproduct a looong time ago without me knowing it. When Gundam 00 S1 was airing, a guy started using a large bunch of images of Neena Trinity with different expressions. I thought it was a Japanese-drawn set, but I now know that it was made using create.swf.

FFFF NOW KOMACHI IS NEENA FFFF

[Zengeku]

Graphics are in my opinion the least important thing about any game. Be it Touhou Project, Call of Duty or Final Fantasy. Anything is more important. Gameplay, sound, music, plot, aesthetics etc.

I think there is too many "graphics bitches" out there who won't even touch a game if the technical level of the game isn't among the top of what computers can handle and i think that's bullshit. People are only cheating themselves by missing out on great games simply because the game doesn't cause your computer to crash. Or your Xbox or Playstation for that matter.

Maybe the Wii have the right thing going. Obviously it can't do anything graphics wise so it must compensate in the other more important areas. Too bad for me i can't find something that appeals to me on the system.

[Vile Lasagna]

It feels like the wii sorta got abandoned by anyone even thinking of developing for the "core gamer" market. Which is a shame as I've played quite a few games making amazing use of the Wii's capabilities for "real gaming", like Twilight Princess, CoD3 and NFS:Carbon (yeah, I know those last two sucked and kinda sucked, but their flaws were in other areas, controls were great for both).
But the thing with graphics is that as hardware gets more powerful you introduce not only a "border of WOW!", that games keep trying to cross to get bonus points. You also have the "minimum acceptable" raised ever higher.
 If you're making a psychedelic abstract puzzle then you can get away with pretty much anything that strikes your artist fancy, but for anything remotely "concrete" there is a need to have a bare minimum that keeps being raised higher and higher. When Doom was released it had AMAZING graphics. If an FPS is released today with those graphics it's bound for failure almost regardless of the rest (perhaps the exception being if it specifically a nostalgia game like MM9).

[Zengeku]

I get your point. As more and more games are being made, the graphical standards rise with them. At a time, half a year ago or something i was writing reviews of games. I usually gave games like Fallout 3 5/10 in graphics because of lack of variation in graphics, characters and colors while i gave games like Touhou a perfect 10 simply for being a beautiful 2D game that shows that you don't need super realistic 3D graphics to make a good game.

About the Wii. That's somewhat of an evil cycle. I don't want the system because there really isn't many developers who makes hard core games for it and those who buys the Wii are mostly casual gamers. Naming just one good Wii game not made by Nintendo is next to impossible but if you look at Sony and Microsoft. They've got all the exclusives and at that point i would theorize its due to those consoles superior graphical capabilities.

[Vile Lasagna]

They've got all the exclusives and at that point i would theorize its due to those consoles superior graphical capabilities.

That and I also think that there is this evil feedback cycle. The Wii quickly consolidated itself as more of a gadget than a console and now developers won't touch it cause it's a gadget, not a console. I also believe that while all the "casual developers" were thrilled by the Wiimote, many core developers are even now unsure and won't dare venturing into using the Wiimotes for more traditional gameplay (maybe because when they do it gets overused in the worst possible ways. Anyone that ever got anywhere near Soul Calibur Legends knows what I mean by DOIN IT RONG!).

As for fallout graphics I myself think they were pretty amazing and that fallout just couldn't be something like Prince of Persia or Quake3, full of colour and shiny. There's this big theme to the whole thing that has to be followed to keep cohesion and immersion. If it's colourful and shiny it's pretty much not fallout.

[dnuoBhtraE]

I first learned about Touhou through someone named RockCandy on youtube by watching one of his/her youtube Yume Nikki flashes. Got interested in Marisa using Master Spark and dug around the internet some more via Touhou Wiki and google...

... And here I am!

[Zengeku]

They've got all the exclusives and at that point i would theorize its due to those consoles superior graphical capabilities.

That and I also think that there is this evil feedback cycle. The Wii quickly consolidated itself as more of a gadget than a console and now developers won't touch it cause it's a gadget, not a console. I also believe that while all the "casual developers" were thrilled by the Wiimote, many core developers are even now unsure and won't dare venturing into using the Wiimotes for more traditional gameplay (maybe because when they do it gets overused in the worst possible ways. Anyone that ever got anywhere near Soul Calibur Legends knows what I mean by DOIN IT RONG!).

As for fallout graphics I myself think they were pretty amazing and that fallout just couldn't be something like Prince of Persia or Quake3, full of colour and shiny. There's this big theme to the whole thing that has to be followed to keep cohesion and immersion. If it's colourful and shiny it's pretty much not fallout.

It suits Fallout maybe but that doesn't mean that games like Killzone 2 and Gears of War 2 had to follow the same recipe.

[Vile Lasagna]

It suits Fallout maybe but that doesn't mean that games like Killzone 2 and Gears of War 2 had to follow the same recipe.

Get successful game.
Copy extensively.
Deny everything.
Brand your product as new and revolutionary.
Wash.
Rinse.
Repeat.
?
PROFIT!


That's like the oldest recipe in the games industry cookbook.

[Zengeku]

You don't have to tell me twice.

[BoLaD]

Graphics by far is pretty much just a word to any real game player.
I rather play a fun 2-d pixel art game than a junky full 3-d mega realistic graphic game that is boring.

How incredibly true. I often have to listen to bullshit in that department. Take pretty much any game that have come out in this generation. Whenever i would play it together with my friend, i would get a lot of comments about texture pop-in, lousy texture quality, glitches, clipping etc. and its so annoying. As if i don't see it! Just shut up already, i'm trying to enjoy a game!

I think graphics are hopelessly overrated. That's one of the reasons i love Touhou. It doesn't show you realistically rendered environments and amazing physics. Instead it shows you how little that does for a game.

I'd say next generation graphics are nothing more than costy special effects meant to draw your attention away from how boring the game actually is. And i'd almost say that it works. I have a tendency to give boring games more of a chance if their graphics are good compared to games which graphics doesn't match. I'm actually kind of ashamed by that.

All my friends only play games that are trendy or popular. wahh.

I know exactly how you feel. Its hard as hell to make people even try a Touhou game. And of course, general reaction is: Die at Imperishable Night Stage 1 on Easy. Shitty game. Naturally.

In my class there is a girl who went as far to call Touhou nothing more than a hyper-advanced Space Invaders with a weak plot added to it and of course, here goes the stereotype: perversion. Of course, if its all girls its bound to be a perv game. I keep saying that the game is only as perverted as the person who plays it but i keep getting the same disrespect.

I wanted to respect her playing World of Warcraft but to a certain extend, i just want to stop respecting it. Respect works both ways, bitch.

There is also another thing that might prevent people from giving Touhou a chance. They are afraid of difficulty. Some might refuse and argue that they have beat Halo 3 on legendary.

To that i usually ask: "Did you do it without continues?", "Would you have done it, if it wasn't because of achievement points?" and stuff like that.

Besides you can just use continues until you succeed.

I'm sometimes told that i have no life. Well howabout yourself huh? Mining wood in Runescape, doing raids in WoW, playing CoD online grinding sniper rifle headshots in order to get a golden sniper? Who is it that doesn't have a life?

How anyone sucks so bad that they die on stage 1 of Imperishable Night on easy I do not know.
I know how you feel man. I tried introducing Touhou to 2 friends of mine. The first said: "All you do is dodge dots. Go play a real game like Starcraft"
The 2nd tried it, died on stage 1 of PCB easy, and gave up, saying that Touhou would give him a 5 second life expectancy. (You know what I mean)

[Sodium]

Starcraft is fun. =V Just a completely different genre from Touhou.

I actually game over'd on EoSD Stage 1 Normal the first time I played.  =V

But now I can beat EoSD Lunatic. So yeah. =3

[RainfallYoshi]

The first time I picked up Touhou I got a Game Over on EoSD Easy Stage 3. Those were some awesome times.

[Zengeku]

How anyone sucks so bad that they die on stage 1 of Imperishable Night on easy I do not know.
I know how you feel man. I tried introducing Touhou to 2 friends of mine. The first said: "All you do is dodge dots. Go play a real game like Starcraft"
The 2nd tried it, died on stage 1 of PCB easy, and gave up, saying that Touhou would give him a 5 second life expectancy. (You know what I mean)

It happens to some people. I have quite a bunch of first-timers die to Stage 1. The fact that i didn't know anything about focus-mode when i started playing might have something to do with it.

About friends. I don't know consider anyone my friend if they bash Touhou games without any valid reasons. That's simply the worst thing about it all. People rarely have any valid arguments. There was this bitch who claimed that the games are just hyper-advanced Space Invaders clones that only perverts play. Yeah sure all the characters are girls but that doesn't mean only perverts can enjoy them. That's actually a pretty bad excuse.

A second thing i'm getting rather used to hear is: "Oh my! It looks sooo haard!!! I don't get how you can dodge all that?"

I could respond that this is just the Stage 4 Boss on Hard mode in PCB. Very trivial so to speak.

But that wouldn't solve much. She wouldn't be able to understand that. And i would probably be labeled as a "show-off" or a "no-life" for considering the "impossible games" easy. I might be able to play well on anything below Lunatic but that's not due to some inherent skills. Its due to having played the games for quite some time now. When i became a Touhou player i did get owned on Easy to begin with as well. The games difficulty are in other words a lousy excuse not to play them. You'll learn the skills to get through Easy mode very quickly without any persistency. I know i did.

Lastly: To say that Starcraft is a real game and Touhou isn't is sinful to say the least. I can accept that not everyone thinks that Touhou is the best game in the world (well, of course) but i hate when people tell you to play real games instead. Now that haven't exactly happened to me. Something similar though. Somebody asked me if i had a Steam account. I replied no. Then he told me that a lot of PC games are working with Steam. Then i told him that the games i play isn't browsed through Steam. And then he told me that most "real" games do.

At that point i was pretty much ready to snap. If people can't accept my fandom, they can't expect me to accept theirs. It would be the same if i said: "Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty and Halo sucks! People should play some real games instead!"

Okay, i better cut this rant a little short if i'm to avoid going on for the entire day.

[KomeijiKoishi]

At that point i was pretty much ready to snap. If people can't accept my fandom, they can't expect me to accept theirs. It would be the same if i said: "Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty and Halo sucks! People should play some real games instead!"

I would be more like "At least I'm taking the time to search the games I like and not just take the ones in the commercials!"

[Vile Lasagna]

"Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty and Halo sucks! People should play some real games instead!"

Please to remover Starcraft from that list as it is bloody awesome. Also CoD 2 was really good. 3 was shit but I haven't played anything after that

[Danielu Yoshikoto]

 :V oh god...

I have a friend who palyed Stepmania a lot, and then he uploaded a Video of a Step chart he created for the song "Toho Mathamatics" (ya know... the IOSYS thing).
I listen to it and thought: where the hell is this from... it sounds like a Final Boss theme...
No research...
Then watched Every Lucky Star episode and klicked onto one of those "related" Videos...
It was U.N.Owen was her (C&C Remix) x Lucky Star...
i didn?t know anything about this song...
Then on youtube i found LuizPrower and his "addiction" to touhou.
after that i saw some of his touhou videos, found some other videos and found LevelGuyLG and his "Obscure Game Reviews".
I found a demo of SWR and played it.
I got around sending him a PM asking him where he found those Touhou Games and the Music and he linked me to Doujinstyle... and so got into touhou...
The first game i downloaded was SWR followed by MoF and then i downloaded the older ones (SA was not out by that time)

And that?s about it...

O-Over Drive Drive
O-O-Over Drive Drive