Author Topic: Some of my observations and further questions  (Read 11110 times)

Ghaleon

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Some of my observations and further questions
« on: May 22, 2009, 07:58:44 PM »
sorry for the spammy amount of posts lately >=P, but I had some observations about eosd that would be nice if they can be confirmed in hopes of improving my chancels of lunatic, along with some random questions.

1: Sometimes I get myself killed thinking I should have been safe when I wasn't, this is due to the hitbox of some bullets being larger than I expect. I mean, the very large round doughnut bullets on the final boss for example, your hitbox can normally get nailed by the outer ring of them and you still live, you just have to try avoid being hit by the inner 2/3 correct?
Some other projectiles that are larger than normal (though not as large as that) often can hit your hitbox slightly if you touch the outer perimeter of the projectile. HOWEVER, some of them, no matter how slightly you touch weird parts of it, you die. Good examples of this are those stupid swords/knives, whatever the maid boss chucks, and those little kunais in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

2: Alot of enemy attacks can come from off screen (maid boss a good example again), however can a projectile ever come from UNDER? I'm always paranoid about hugging the bottom of the screen for the final boss when she's casting something like "Red magic", or "curse of vlad thepes" (or whatever its called).. But I haven't noticed anything coming from below yet during those moves, I am not sure though cuz I'm too busy crapping my pants on those moves too >=P

3: Alot of moves are made much easier to avoid by trying to move as little as possible when the shot happens, stage 4 early trash is probably the only thing I've actually memorized to do this with, and stage 3 stream-kunai thrower fairies. Some other moves just seem impossible to dodge sometimes (and only sometimes), that I wonder if they operate in a similar manner. Often they absolutely require me moving more even if I try to stand still during the initial shot, but sometimes it's so easy, and sometimes its not. So I can't help but wonder if your position can be used to manipulate the move to make it much easier too. Moves I'm talking about are ones like red magic, luna-something (maid boss), etc. I find marionette and corpse clock can be easier (for me personally) when I swing from one far end of the screen to the other between shots. If you could name me some moves where your movement influences how easy or hard a move is without neccesarily being a simple "move a tad just as they shoot" move, I'd appreciate it.

As for other questions:

1: what is slowdown rate? is that how much your computer chugs cuz there is so much stuff on screen? I'd assume so but my computer is really kinda overkill for this game so I find it hard to believe its slowing down at all (even if only 0.3% >=P)

2: I'm thinking of beating this game on lunatic next, just gonna skip hard. Is this unwise? Is beating lunatic with continues considered an accomplishment, or is that a 1 cc only type deal too.

3: I notice alot of good players like Marissa A. While I understand she's supposed to do excellent boss damage, I find it's really no better than Marissa B's, or Reimu A's...for me anyway. Is it considered gimping myself by intending to try and beat lunatic for my first time with Reimu A? I personally like how much better she is at killing trash, and furthermore alot of the time I'm so busy saving my skin, that I can't bother to aim at the boss, so with her I can still do decent damage to any boss even if they on the opposite side of the screen (they really love to fly all the way to the left and right for me. soooo annoying).

theshirn

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2009, 08:28:53 PM »
1) Sakya's knives have BS hitboxes.  I hate those things.

2) Umm...Cranberry Trap aside, I don't think so?

As far as the other questions go,

1) your slowdown rate is the percentage below 60 FPS your game ran at on average, I believe,

2) VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA.  The jump from Normal to Hard is very significant, but the jump from Hard to Lunatic is a whole different world.  Don't skip Hard.

3) ReimuA does crap, crap, crap damage.  ReimuB can do a lot, but only while shotgunning, and with too much of MarisaB's shot spread out and the damn lasers flicking on and off her damage is inconstant as well.  MarisaA may have a harder time with the stages (homing types always have it easy...or do they take it easy?) but she will do her full damage at the bottom of the screen if you're right under the boss, and that's quite a bit.

If stages kill you more than bosses, by all means, use ReimuA.  But I tend to die on cards that should have been over 5-10 seconds earlier with MarisaA.

Of course, another point against MarisaA is the Patchy battle, but I honestly don't find it all THAT bad.

[09:46] <theshim|work> there is nothing like working for a real estate company to make one contemplate arson

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2009, 08:58:49 PM »
Quote from: Ghaleon
2: I'm thinking of beating this game on lunatic next, just gonna skip hard. Is this unwise? Is beating lunatic with continues considered an accomplishment, or is that a 1 cc only type deal too.

Why not give lunatic a go? You can judge for yourself whether you think you're ready for it...
But theshim is right, the gap between hard and lunatic is bigger than that between normal and hard.
Heh, when I decided to try MoF lunatic without ever even seeing hard, I got utterly squashed. Spent an hour trying to perfect stage 1 and then lost all my lives to stage 2 T.T

theshim gives good answers. Pay heed to them!
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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2009, 08:59:15 PM »
Quote
2: I'm thinking of beating this game on lunatic next, just gonna skip hard. Is this unwise? Is beating lunatic with continues considered an accomplishment, or is that a 1 cc only type deal too.

To answer the second part of the question, a run is only considered legitimately successful if it is a 1cc.  You probably noticed that you aren't allowed to save replays if you've continued, since such a run is basically a failure.  Also, it's only legitimate if it's beaten with default lives of 3.  I noticed with your current 1ccs that you beat them with max (5) lives.  This is okay if you're just beginning, but now that you've beaten the game with max lives you should start playing with default, as it makes managing lives and bombs much more difficult and thus encourages you to play on a higher level.  You'd be surprised just how big a difference those two lives can make.

And for the first part... I wouldn't really recommend it.  Lunatic is absolute leagues above any other difficulty.  You seem to be getting into things fairly fast, but going straight to lunatic after a week of playing will probably end in failure and frustration.  Most people don't even get their first lunatic 1cc until about a year in (though there are some exceptions)  Of course, this doesn't mean you can't give lunatic a shot just to see what it's like.  I wouldn't count on being able to beat it right away, or even soon at all.

You might also want to try 1cc'ing a few of the other Touhou games as well if you haven't already, since it's always good to experience a good variety of levels and patterns.  There's a lot to enjoy with Touhou, no need to rush straight to lunatic right from the get-go.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 09:09:24 PM by Azinth »

Ghaleon

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2009, 09:14:02 PM »
I just don't want to forget the enemy attack patterns and whatnot of this game by moving to another personally >=P.

I've tried lunatic somewhat so far, and so far it doesn't seem much worse than normal was on my first few tries. Ie, get to stage 3 with full continues.

As for 5 lives thing, I've seen 5 different lunatic difficulty replays so far, and all but 1 used 5 lives, so I just figured it was a given. my first try 1 ccing with reimu I would have done it with 3 anyway >=P (especially if I used my bombs more liberally at the end).

I honestly think my biggest weakness overall though is just that I still haven't really memorized the game yet. I don't know where enemies spawn (for the most part), how they shoot, etc... that and my innability to aim well at a boss when I'm busy dodging their attacks.

I'll try hard though anyway since everyone feels like it's silly  not to.

a part of me wants to try and beat normal with no bombs too. oh what to do. It's just so much more fun and satisfying to defeat a boss with no bombs.

ghost333

  • A retired Lunatic
Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2009, 10:25:27 PM »
experience and the dark forces of  touhou tells that if u take a break from a game for some unknown reason u play it better...also try to add the super effect of sleepness and hunger.(they work too)

i started my  game road  with lunatic which was unbearable.....and through a lot of pain
after a lot of rage i decided to go with normal (OH i was suprised with myself i was really awesome)
then i went on hard > thinks got realy tough here i did a lot of runs untill i can own that youmu...
now i can tackle lunatic one on one with defaukt settings but still get owned a lot of times.

i wanted to tell u about default setts but it seems azinth covered me .You must really try with 3 lifes and see the difference.



stargroup

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2009, 05:45:27 AM »
The only spell cards that have bullets that come from underneath are Cranberry Trap and Royal Flare, and these cards are so incredibly stupid you should just bomb through them anyways. (Both of these are in the Extra stage if you're wondering)

Also, if you're gonna try for a 1cc on anything, don't be afraid to bomb. It is almost always a good idea to bomb, as they save you many many lives in the end. Dying would waste your bombs.

Now about the whether to do Lunatic or Hard. Some people say don't, others say whatever works for you, but none of these comments actually help address what difficulty might suit you the best. The answer? Both of them. If you want to get better, you should be pressuring yourself on stages and spell cards that are just within your grasp, stuff that puts pressure on you without being overkill. Continuously reading BS never makes you a better player, but reading stuff just beyond your grasp will. Take advantage of the earlier levels in Lunatic and the later levels in Hard (and if you're not good enough just focus on Hard, or maybe even Normal) to push yourself.

Personally, I found that for MoF, I captured every card in Normal (except 1 stupid card but not the point) before I went to Lunatic. For me, it was a perfect push in difficulty, so I went with it. Not everyone will do this skip though.

Drake

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2009, 06:26:33 AM »
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Ghaleon

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2009, 06:46:59 AM »
well I did a terrible 3 life 1 cc run on normal just to appease, I say terrible cuz I had heaps of stupid deaths. I think this was honestly cuz I was frustrated with some rl issues and. well, it leaked into my game and patchy killed me like 4 @%@#%ing times, god she's a bish lol (I just about quit the game at that point figuring I wouldn't be able to beat it). Anyway I barely beat the final boss cuz of a very very bad patchy battle. what's funny is that I practiced level 4 to DEATH before I started, so that I could memorize it (I did level 5 too), and it got to the point where I could clear it all, and steal all of patchy's spellcards with 0 or 1 deaths only. then when I do it for real, wtfpwnt.

I should practice the final boss too, I'm pretty bad at her, but I kinda am reluctant to for I don't know why.

Then I played a few times with Marissa A instead of reimu A (that's her name? I can never remember it).

Anyway, so my initial observation of her not even doing more boss damage is actually correct...prior to 40 power. For example if you have 30ish power and face the level 1 midboss, you will NOT defeat her as fast as you would with reimu. However, once you get past 70 power or so, you really start to notice the damage difference...as I'm sure all of you guys already have.

Anyway after getting used to reimu, I find marrisa A is very good at certain things, and very bad at others. my biggest gripe as I said is the complete lack of boss damage if you are in the wrong spot, and sometimes those bosses just float to the corners and it's hell to try and damage them like that. Another problem is that she's just too fast for me. I understand fast is good, but I got a motor disability which affects my hands, and makes me unable to write actually.. I can never quite tap a button as little as I want to, so I often go flying into my death with Marissa (that's why the 3rd boss was so hard for me before, I'd always fly more than I needed to and kill myself during some of her spellcards).

I found patchy isn't easier or harder with Marissa actually, she's still a brutal bish. the maid boss on the other hand is WAY harder for me. My "strategy" for her time stop spell cards is to fly from one side to the other, with Marissa I can't really damage her like that.

Her bomb really really sucks too >=P.

I can upload my bad patchy rape 1 cc 3 lives video if you guys like but those of you who watched my last ones are prob a bit sick of me playing so much in such a short period of time >=P.

I'm seriously hooked on this game though damn.

nintendonut888

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2009, 07:08:54 AM »
Yeah, don't skip to lunatic. You will be brutalized when you realize how huge a leap it is from anything else.

And trust me, going to another game won't decrease your skill in another. In fact, once you play long enough, Touhou will seem like one long game and you can move to any game interchangeably.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
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Ghaleon

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 07:50:13 AM »
I'll take your guys advice and go for hard first. But I'm STUBBORN damnit, so I wont change games yet. Maybe I'll just play normal some more too cuz I am enjoying it and I would like to be able to do better.

theshirn

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2009, 02:29:59 AM »
The only spell cards that have bullets that come from underneath are Cranberry Trap and Royal Flare, and these cards are so incredibly stupid you should just bomb through them anyways. (Both of these are in the Extra stage if you're wondering)
Cranberry Trap and Royal Flare are actually bloody easy cards, if you know how to do them.  Royal Flare especially, since Flan's movement means you have to adjust for where you're standing on the screen, which can make Trap slightly annoying.

[09:46] <theshim|work> there is nothing like working for a real estate company to make one contemplate arson

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 04:12:49 AM »
1: Sometimes I get myself killed thinking I should have been safe when I wasn't, this is due to the hitbox of some bullets being larger than I expect. I mean, the very large round doughnut bullets on the final boss for example, your hitbox can normally get nailed by the outer ring of them and you still live, you just have to try avoid being hit by the inner 2/3 correct?
Some other projectiles that are larger than normal (though not as large as that) often can hit your hitbox slightly if you touch the outer perimeter of the projectile. HOWEVER, some of them, no matter how slightly you touch weird parts of it, you die. Good examples of this are those stupid swords/knives, whatever the maid boss chucks, and those little kunais in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Yes, hitboxes come in different sizes, and at times, odd shapes (primary example of this is sword bullets with circular hitboxes). A general rule of thumb is the larger the bullet sprite, the smaller the hitbox in terms of the ratio between the two. Of course, this isn't always true (a good example is amulets, especially in IN, which seem to have no hitbox whatsoever >_>)

Now, while you can tough the outer white rim of the huge bubble bullets, this doesn't mean you should hug them as close as you can. Typically, dodge the sprites, forget about the hitboxes. If you touch the sprite but don't die, then just be happy and keep dodging.

2: Alot of enemy attacks can come from off screen (maid boss a good example again), however can a projectile ever come from UNDER? I'm always paranoid about hugging the bottom of the screen for the final boss when she's casting something like "Red magic", or "curse of vlad thepes" (or whatever its called).. But I haven't noticed anything coming from below yet during those moves, I am not sure though cuz I'm too busy crapping my pants on those moves too >=P
Yes, I believe Killing Doll and DBDB, among other cards, have bullets that come from the bottom of the screen. This is why I hate those cards :P

Just remember that very patterns actually do this, so don't worry about bullets coming from behind you.

1: what is slowdown rate? is that how much your computer chugs cuz there is so much stuff on screen? I'd assume so but my computer is really kinda overkill for this game so I find it hard to believe its slowing down at all (even if only 0.3% >=P)
Slowdown rate measures how much time of the total run was spent under max FPS.

2: I'm thinking of beating this game on lunatic next, just gonna skip hard. Is this unwise? Is beating lunatic with continues considered an accomplishment, or is that a 1 cc only type deal too.
Nothing wrong with that. I skipped Hard completely (aside for some practice mode stuff), and I think I turned out just fine.

3: I notice alot of good players like Marissa A. While I understand she's supposed to do excellent boss damage, I find it's really no better than Marissa B's, or Reimu A's...for me anyway. Is it considered gimping myself by intending to try and beat lunatic for my first time with Reimu A? I personally like how much better she is at killing trash, and furthermore alot of the time I'm so busy saving my skin, that I can't bother to aim at the boss, so with her I can still do decent damage to any boss even if they on the opposite side of the screen (they really love to fly all the way to the left and right for me. soooo annoying).
Every character has its respective pros and cons. People like MarisaA in EoSD due to her awesome damage, but hey, MarisaB has the almighty Master Spark and ReimuA has a homing shot, of which is really useful in EoSD due to random boss movement. No matter what character you use, your accomplishments will be respected all the same.

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2009, 04:30:30 AM »
Every character has its respective pros and cons. People like MarisaA in EoSD due to her awesome damage, but hey, MarisaB has the almighty Master Spark and ReimuA has a homing shot, of which is really useful in EoSD due to random boss movement. No matter what character you use, your accomplishments will be respected all the same.
Also keep in mind that which char you pick also determines which Patchy battle you will face. These range from difficult to pure bullshit. iirc the difficulty goes MariA >> ReimuB > MariB > ReimuA. Moreover, while ReimuA has weaker damage output compared to MariA/B, she does have homing which is very helpful given random boss movement, and her bomb is actually pretty good for her character.
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

hiddenryuu

  • Artist in Training
Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 06:27:22 AM »
Reimu A in EoSD isn't really THAT weak... and she more than makes up for it with her bomb. Fantasy seal is leaps and bounds better than Evil sealing circle that it usually makes up for the minor damage difference.

As people said Reimu A also has the easiest patchy battle which is also nice. Also homing shot is great for stages.

All said and done though probably go for someone that fits how you play in general.

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2009, 07:31:49 PM »
It doesn't matter if you choose to do Hard mode first or move straight on to Lunatic. Just make sure not to stick around with Normal. I did that for a goddamn eternity and my first Hard 1CC which was of EoSD was mainly due to me wasting time with easy stuff.

As all others here recommend you should make sure to push your limits. Don't be a coward like i was and stick around with what you can do and improve yourself instead.

If you don't you will end up like me regretting you didn't move on to Lunatic ages ago.

stargroup

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 10:40:19 PM »
Aha, so you're memorizing the stages huh?

My advice is, don't brutally burn the stages into your head. Just play them naturally, and eventually you'll get a feel for all the stages without having to remember where each enemy spawns and stuff.

The problem with memorization is that you end up doing everything by muscle memory, so you don't actually build up your dodging skills as much, which ends up being a time-waster. Focus on pushing your limits in reading bullets, and dodge the manly way whenever you can. And this is also the reason why you shouldn't be afraid of switching games. New patterns, fresh moves, they will greatly help your reading skills, and beating the stages will be much more comfortable than sheer memorization.

You have a slight case of OCD, just like me. However, as painful as it might be, you have to let go of it and just enjoy the game. The whole point of bullet hells is to dodge, and memorization will only frustrate you and you won't go very far.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 12:27:24 AM »
oh I'm plenty used to dodging stuff, which is why I'm always reluctant to use bombs on spellcards. I haven't really memorized anything totally, it's just nice to know certain things like on stage 4 trash, don't move until they stop shooting, then move just a bit. Otherwise if you're moving to a big safe area which is relatively far away, you'll only make them spread attacks all over the damn place and make it that much harder.

anyway I was currently playing the extra stage for fun, got to the leviathan spell card 3 times now. though it killed me twice all 3 times with 3 bombs left (I refuse to bomb it cuz I'm dumb lol). I realize the boss prob doesn't take much damage from bombs but you get to live for at least another wave.

theshirn

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 12:42:23 AM »
Flandre is immune to bombs during spellcards, as are all Extra bosses (as well as midboss Ran in Phantasm, and a bunch of final cards like Scarlet Gensokyo and Virtue of Wind God).  As for Laevatein, look up a replay or a video of it; it's probably the second-easiest Extra card.

[09:46] <theshim|work> there is nothing like working for a real estate company to make one contemplate arson

stargroup

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 01:17:23 AM »
Yeah I'm reluctant to use bombs too, but it's also extremely important to know your own limits. Most of your "deaths" should actually be deathbombs in that case. Learn to figure out when you actually get hit, so you can time these correctly.

And yeah, what theshim said, Leviathan is so incredibly easy it's hilarious, so you should really try and figure out how to do it the "right" way (it's actually the wrong way but nobody dodges that one the manly way)

Zetzumarshen

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2009, 02:20:55 AM »
Memorizing stages are very helpful actually. In normal difficulty, you don't get an impenetrable wall if you play recklessly, maybe only harder bullets. But on lunatic, memorizing is a must. Fail to positioning your character, and you will get a wall of bullets that cannot be dodged.

And if you were trying to 1cc a game, try not to waste any resources. Dying with bomb on stock is not a good move.

stargroup

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2009, 03:28:37 AM »
Memorizing stages are very helpful actually. In normal difficulty, you don't get an impenetrable wall if you play recklessly, maybe only harder bullets. But on lunatic, memorizing is a must. Fail to positioning your character, and you will get a wall of bullets that cannot be dodged.

And if you were trying to 1cc a game, try not to waste any resources. Dying with bomb on stock is not a good move.

Yeah, it is helpful, but my point is that you don't need to force yourself. You can do it over time.

Ghaleon

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2009, 06:49:57 AM »
Yeah I figured out how to do the levatien spellcard, so it's easy now. Now I can get up to.. uhh.. the one where she chucks 5 big blue doughnut bullets with lots of smaller bullets trailing behind which bounce off walls (2 spellcards after that bs maze of love one, which ALWAYS kills me at least once, god I hate that one.

part of me wonders if I can actually beat the boss if I unlock marissa A or something. Reimu A sucks so bad at the bosses I can tell, especially for cranberry trap, my homing bullets are attacking the pentacrams shooting the bullets, not the boss, argh you dumb%@#%
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 06:55:46 AM by Ghaleon »

stargroup

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Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2009, 07:13:14 AM »
Character change isn't all that necessary unless you find yourself straining or dying the last few seconds of most spell cards.

Yeah Maze of Love is sorta BS, but once you get the hang of circling her, it's not so bad (took me a while to get it though, still don't have it down consistently).

Blue bouncing chains aren't that bad. The general safespot that she pushes you into eventually anyways in somewhere in the bottom right. From there just dodge. (I don't think you can get trapped in a corner but I'm not sure)

Getting close to the end I see. Brace for impact when you hit the last spell hehe. Good luck.

Kit Nezumi

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2009, 12:24:18 PM »
Also, it's only legitimate if it's beaten with default lives of 3.  I noticed with your current 1ccs that you beat them with max (5) lives.  This is okay if you're just beginning, but now that you've beaten the game with max lives you should start playing with default, as it makes managing lives and bombs much more difficult and thus encourages you to play on a higher level.  You'd be surprised just how big a difference those two lives can make.

Out of curiousity, does the amount of bombs I use have any affect on the legitimacy of a victory?

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2009, 02:40:36 PM »
Nope.

Heartbeam

Re: Some of my observations and further questions
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2009, 03:17:12 PM »
Most first Lunatic 1CCs will be centered around resource management which bombs undoubtedly play a large role in.  It's a victory all the same and the way I see it a 1CC will mean you've cleared it, but not neccessarily conquered it.