Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Milkyway64]

Thanks a lot Milky. I managed to take her down with Reimu at level 226. Pretty happy about it. It's been a long time since I've played a game where I end up being satisfied with killing a boss.

Grats.  :V

Have fun with your new characters.

[mlkio]

How do I get to floor 21?

I have 6 stars now but there's no down stairs.

[Milkyway64]

You installed the plus disk, right? There's a tile sticking out of the path just under the final boss?

[Ghaleon]

From here

Using these details and CE, you *could* trial and error out all the delays for the various character's actions.

Wow, this will save a heap of time, thank you very much! (sorry for slow reply, been busyish today). I notice some abilities which cost strange amounts of your guage (such as marisa's row attack, 45). This would have been a *PAIN* to figure out exactly.

The speed formula is also nice too >=)

I'm confused by this part here, anybody get it exactly:

on join, all stat multipliers are 100% (exception is remilia atk at 84%).

I'm not sure if this multiplier is already factored into Remi's stats in the status screen, or if it only gets applied during battle, or what. I always thought it was strange how Remi starts off so feeble early game (damage wise), and picks up shortly without really favoring her over anybody else's attack stats.

[mlkio]

You installed the plus disk, right? There's a tile sticking out of the path just under the final boss?

I don't see any tile. I'm playing version 2.04 and I should have the plus disc.

[Just a GBZero]

I just somehow beat

Spoiler:

Flandre.  The fight went well at the beginning, until a unexpected Forbidden Fruit killed Reimu.  A 2nd one in a row ended up killing Sanae too, leaving mostly without revival, not counting Meling.  Meling and Tenshi were tanking for most of the end, Switching in Chen to do some attacks, and out again before the next turn Flan got.  Got rather close after Meling died, due to Flan getting a double turned, Leaving a paralyzed Tenshi.  Basicly after that went Tenshi switched in Chen, Tenshi Focused while Chen attacked, until she got enough SP to do her buff, while Chen switched herself out before Flan got a turn.  Was one or 2 close calls at that point, especially once when I misjudged if Chen would get a turn, but luckily Flan decided to use Starbow Break that turn, on Tenshi.

Otherwise

Spoiler:

I just tricked you into wasting time reading a useless spoiler tag here.

[Ghaleon]

Figured out that blurb about remi. It just means that her starting attack is just 1 higher than that of someone with an atk growth of 13 instead of her 16.

As for mr lvl ups in sp. I think it's a bad idea to spend lvl ups in sp because skillpoints seem to provide more than enough. And later on you will find that your sp is limited by djinn storm and destroy magic more than actual consumption. Once you pick a stat for your level up you can't undo ever. due to the player never getting new spells every character will inevitably reach a point where sp is a non issue.

[Pesco]

Something that needs testing. Actual sp recovery.

My twinked out 15F with 4k sp recovers only 20 when focusing in battle. Before the twink, she recovered 32 at 900 sp. I'm sure we're being lied to here.

[trancehime]

Something that needs testing. Actual sp recovery.

My twinked out 15F with 4k sp recovers only 20 when focusing in battle. Before the twink, she recovered 32 at 900 sp. I'm sure we're being lied to here.

Someone who hacked a Marisa with 260k SP only recovers 40 SP using Focus.

It's not related to SP.

[Milkyway64]

My youmu with 300 SP and 60 recovery (100%+ thanks to her ability) recovers full. Interesting, I kinda thought something was up when my 3000 SP Alice wasn't getting anywhere near 20%.

[Ghaleon]

I've noticed this behaviour too. However I just assumed that sp recovery is based off of your character's base sp, before leveling growths (if any), and skillpoint assignments, and equipment and such. I'm not sure if any of you guys noticed, but I also notice that skillpoints tend to add a wonky amount of sp too. I mean it's like skillpoints give more sp than you'd expect. So without all themskillpoints, your sp is probably pretty low.

However that theory is probably wrong too. Pesco's link mentions that sp recovery is capped at 2X recovery%.

Looking at the link further, it lacks info on the delay on all the moves past page one. And this info will be nearly impossible and time consuming to get accurately. Does anybody know how people got this information to begin with? Such as skill formulas and such as well? I really don't think it was obtained by analyzing gameplay behaviour. If there is just some kind of source code or doc I can view it'd make it much easier I rekon.

update:

derp, just noticed delays were on the Japanese wiki, just after noticing, I noticed someone told me that on page 1, derp derp.

[Anima Zero]

Reimu lv195 right now.  Grinded up some on 20F.  25F mobs are obviously a bit too much for me ATM.  24F mobs I can handle in most cases...but Demon King's Armour?  I basically need Alice's Little Legion spell to debuff their DEF enough so someone other than my 18F character can actually do more than 0 damage.  Fun.

[Ghaleon]

Reimu lv195 right now.  Grinded up some on 20F.  25F mobs are obviously a bit too much for me ATM.  24F mobs I can handle in most cases...but Demon King's Armour?  I basically need Alice's Little Legion spell to debuff their DEF enough so someone other than my 18F character can actually do more than 0 damage.  Fun.

They're one of those "you have to have a defense ignore attack to hurt me" mobs. So:

Spoiler:

Rumia's dark side of the moon, Kaggy's fire rat robe, cowrie shell (this one is best imo), hourai barrage, yuugi's ko in 3 steps doesn't ignore defense completely but it's really good at punching thru it, nitori's megawatt canon, Autumn harvest' lady's first spell also ignores MOST defense (but it's a feeble spell regardless), you get the idea.

I understand if you don't want to have one of those characters if you don't use them already just for one mob. But you might want to start doing so anyway because floor 27 has these crabs that take pretty much 0 damage from anything debuffs or not unless it ignores defense, and floor 27 is *THE* level grind floor

[Pesco]

Let's see how they like a permanent 1000% debuff .

[trancehime]

lol Lv1600 and still going

29/100 times

I like being cryptic

[MysTeariousYukari]

Wewt!

Spoiler:

I am on 18F an wandering, but oh well, I'm on 18F, once I beat the boss I'll get a star, every non plus disk char:D

Also Inaba Tewi/Pes Con't Go/Pesco, may I ask why you keep changing your visable name? I personally liked the name Pesco

[Pesco]

My name is normally Pesco. Kilga changed it to fit with some silly theme. Tewi got bored of it and took over.

[Anima Zero]

They're one of those "you have to have a defense ignore attack to hurt me" mobs. So:

Spoiler:

Rumia's dark side of the moon, Kaggy's fire rat robe, cowrie shell (this one is best imo), hourai barrage, yuugi's ko in 3 steps doesn't ignore defense completely but it's really good at punching thru it, nitori's megawatt canon, Autumn harvest' lady's first spell also ignores MOST defense (but it's a feeble spell regardless), you get the idea.

I understand if you don't want to have one of those characters if you don't use them already just for one mob. But you might want to start doing so anyway because floor 27 has these crabs that take pretty much 0 damage from anything debuffs or not unless it ignores defense, and floor 27 is *THE* level grind floor

Sounded like a good plan, so I took out Patchy whom I was testing out to see if should could damage those enemies in question (Failed xD), put in

Spoiler:

Kaguya

, leveled her up some, spent some serious skill points on her, and...god damn not only does she wipe those enemies out like nothing,

Spoiler:

Hourai Barrage

pretty much rips apart anything on 24F except for the flaming skulls of evil and their nasty Exhalatio attack. 

Just had to boost my 18F character's SPD as well so Remi had an extra hand in dealing with Evil Jewels (Dual Colored Light is just mean!), the other nasty enemy if they come in pairs.

I can now pretty much take out most, if not all, enemy formations on 24F.

Also, said character I added is the reason I managed to defeat the final Bloodstained Seal boss on 1F.  Took a few tries to figure that out since the physical immune side was usually the last one left standing and it would suddenly pull its "I win" spell out and kill everyone.

Imagine the surprise I had when

Spoiler:

Kaguya's Hourai Barrage

damaged them both.  I was assuming the magic part was going to be hit for 0 dmg.  Guess one part just has massive def, the other massive mnd.

With that spell being spammed (Reinforced by 18F character's awesome buff) plus some smart thinking, it didn't take long to kill both (At once no less !).

Got my 5th star as well.  Now Final Boss Ver2 is available to fight.  Joy.

Back to 24F grinding for now.  Hopefully won't be too long before I can take out the 22F Sigil Guardian.

My attempt I tried today after a small grind session for lulzs failed more or less because it outlasted me.  Must have a lot of HP.

Reimu lv205 ATM.

[Milkyway64]

Floor 22 gaurdian should have been possible 50 levels ago. For a plus disk boss, it's damage output is HORRIBLE. However, the fight lasted 20 minutes.

[Ghaleon]

Floor 22 gaurdian should have been possible 50 levels ago. For a plus disk boss, it's damage output is HORRIBLE. However, the fight lasted 20 minutes.

it has dth attacks though I recall. Still shouldn't be too much of a prob though.

[MysTeariousYukari]

I need your halp

Spoiler:

The boss on 18F, any hints, tips or strats for dealing with said foe? I already attempted the fight, and it went horribly wrong, at a scary fast rate...

[Milkyway64]

I need your halp

Spoiler:

The boss on 18F, any hints, tips or strats for dealing with said foe? I already attempted the fight, and it went horribly wrong, at a scary fast rate...

Level to 90-100 first and foremost.

Got that done? Excellent. Now it's time for strategy, which can't be too specific since no two fights will end up the same. Here's a bunch of tips;

Status ailment resistances. Love them. A ribbon should be in your possession. Give it to Remilia. Enjoy your drawback-less curse and go to town. Make sure everyone has some sort of resistance to all ailments, since this boss will use each one against you. (SIL for ice form, PAR for WND/thunder form, PSN for NTR, and DTH for SPI) Naturally, you also want your affinities up if you can manage it.

You want a tank or two, for sure. Hong can cure ailments if she doesn't get hit with them first, but the floor 10 tank stalls better. More importantly, you want power. You can reduce damage all you want and tank, heal, and last a long time, but it won't mean a thing if you sacrifice damage output for it. It makes no sense, but my troubles with this fight was over when I focused on powering through as fast as I can, specifically having a few members handle each phase to take advantage of their weaknesses.

The final form is like his first + a huge buff in stats. Nuke it down. A certain floor 15 character + the one we get from the end of floor 9 should be enough.

[Ghaleon]

Gah, I made a disturbing discovery for theorycrafting purposes...The cost to increase the skill level of a stat is not neccesarily related to the growth rate of the same stat. For example, in my new game Increasing marisa's speed skill level from 5 to 6 costed 33 (something like that, low 30s) skillpoints, for remi (who has 1 more growth per level) it costed 56.

[Pesco]

Gonna try graph all the stat costs for everyone?

[AlexX Unlimited]

The thing is, if they have a terrible SP growth, then the SP boost will also be quite terrible. You'll have better results boosting a different stat.

And with your example of Chen; around the time bosses are quite tough, you'll often be switching Chen out before she runs out of SP anyway... and at the final boss, with no SP boost aside from skill points she'll have enough to Idaten spam with 2 supplementary kimontonkous thrown in before she switches out.

Its a possible choice for Ran, yes, but with basically everyone else it's simply not worth it.

Well, I've given most of my current roster of characters at least 5-10 levels of the boost to help with mob clearing (ones like Marisa run out of MP long before their TP drops out, which can be annoying when they're literally the only one that makes mincemeat out of the current floor's random mobs) and I'm sure as heck not going to throw away 15 floors of work just for a mistake I can easily just deal with.

Anyhow, mostly exploring and grinding floor 15 still (DFO has been distracting me... very easy to do when you have a good friend with a char at your level willing to play with you). I beat one of the sigil bosses on floor 14, but none of the mystic circles have been activated. Its a pretty annoying floor so far, so hopefully once I finish mapping it out I can tackle corpsebitch and the ___bitch I've been wanting for quite some time. Reimu is level 69 now, so I'm considering going back for firebitch, though the fact I've been struggling with boss fights since floor 1 makes me think I should grind a bit more before trying it; especially since I can't confirm if Marisa will be able to deliver that finishing Master Spark in time.

On the more spoiler note...

Spoiler:

I'm noticing most bosses tend to be magic-based... Yuugi makes a lovely tank against mobs since she can take their hits, but against bosses she seems like little help... Should I drop her for Yuyuko or something later? Or does she have the HP to handle heavy magic bosses like Mokou?

Also, that one sigil leader on floor 14 that's all 3 of Alice's dolls is really annoying me... Do you have any advice for how to deal with it? I can't seem to beat its healer, so either I have to take it out before it heals or level enough that I can beat the heal with sheer damage output. I tried the former, but after prepping Marisa's Spark and letting it loose after it performs one heal, following up with Knockout in Three Steps, Silent Selene, and Megawatt, I still was unable to take it out before it healed, after which my SP on everyone not named Patchy was spent and there was no way I could do enough damage to compensate for the heal after... Also, while I was able to poison it with Yuugi's Unbreakable Shackles, either poison wears off after a while or the heal also cures it of status effects, because after the heal I found that it had lost the poisoning.

[Ghaleon]

Gonna try graph all the stat costs for everyone?

doubt it, I like theorycrafting, not data collection...which I'd probably be willing to do if I was good at it, alas I'm limited to saving and loading the game and looking at in-game menus... I'll check to
see if this is normal though, maybe remi is just a special case like her messed up attack at level1... Or maybe her SPF growth (or marisa's) on the wiki is false, I'll check that at least.

[Serela]

doubt it, I like theorycrafting, not data collection...which I'd probably be willing to do if I was good at it, alas I'm limited to saving and loading the game and looking at in-game menus... I'll check to
see if this is normal though, maybe remi is just a special case like her messed up attack at level1... Or maybe her SPF growth (or marisa's) on the wiki is false, I'll check that at least.

I can tell you right now that it's not based off of growth rates; for example, all of the non-tp/affinity cost the exact same amount to level in the case of Cirno and Wriggle.

The growth rates are generally a good thing to make a guess off of though.

Still being lazy after exploring 9F on my second play. I want to pick up 9F optional right now, but at this level I'd need to abuse PAR to keep my damage dealers from being Multi-hit nuked, and I'm having a little trouble with 8F girl too, who has the best PAR attack. If I remember right, I beat 8F girl at this level on my first playthrough, so maybe soon...

I really, REALLY am not looking forward to 10~12F. Whee, procrastination

[MysTeariousYukari]

I agree NeoSerela:) Do you have any advice for 18F, or is ailment resists, level 90-100+ and such all their is? Cause that seems to easy...

Spoiler:

Also, does said boss on 18F have any particular order for forms? or is it random?

[Serela]

I agree NeoSerela:) Do you have any advice for 18F, or is ailment resists, level 90-100+ and such all their is? Cause that seems to easy...

Spoiler:

Also, does said boss on 18F have any particular order for forms? or is it random?

Random. The first few you kill will only take a fraction of their normal HP, however.

I lolabuse'd that boss with 10F girl by keeping her buff nice while switching in an appropriate Nuker or Healing person in and out. This can easily take over an hour, but it works, as long as you keep her buff up and she has at least 34 res. to all ailments.

It'll be... interesting when I reach 18F on my second playthrough, since I'm not using 10F this time.

[mlkio]

I agree NeoSerela:) Do you have any advice for 18F, or is ailment resists, level 90-100+ and such all their is? Cause that seems to easy...

Spoiler:

Also, does said boss on 18F have any particular order for forms? or is it random?

Nuke him out of his first form and save marisa for his lightning form. Have hong as your tank and don't attack him if he's in fire form. He's weakest as fire and you should use that chance to heal up and buff with ran.