Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2  (Read 130169 times)

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Ghaleon

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Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« on: January 10, 2010, 01:06:25 am »
Quote
Oh, by all means, do it when and if you can. Just expect it to stop being fun after reaching floor 30. As long as you skip the floor 21 boss, it paces well until floor 25, which is the first grind wall. It's not too much worse than the ones you've experienced so far, so you'll move on in no time. From there, you can basically run to floor 30 with only one troublesome fight, and from there, it's ALL grinding. Get used to fighting bikini clad liliths and black knights, because you'll be fighting them for as long as it took to reach that point and then some.

This. It's not just some giant grind wall you'll have to deal with. But one with virtually no new trash to speed it up. You'll be fighting trash balanced towards level 240 Reimu or so...until like level 450. At which point it's probably STILL your grind area of choice. The game is great, but they really should expect the player to not have to grind so much before new bosses at 30. They aren't even difficult unless you level, it's "I 1shot your entire party until you level up 200 levels first" kind of difficult. It's like being forced to hit level 99 in Secret of mana via killing rabites.

update: nyah nyah flandre I saw it >=P Beat you by 12 seconds!

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:25 am »
Quote
It's like being forced to hit level 99 in Secret of mana via killing rabites.

xDxD Thats hilarious... Level 99 on Rabites of all things xD Also kinda funny, I saw the first part got locked so I made a part 2, then I saw that you had made a part 2 xD

16F jerk is evil T.T Evil to the point that I am going to ask this: Is swearing permitted on Shrine Maiden?

Milkyway64

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 01:14:07 am »
I want to state early on that most people don't like spoilers. This is a rather fun RPG, and part of the fun is wondering which touhou you'll run into next. Try not to ruin that by not mentioning any character past the second page (first 16) by name. Use [spoiler.]spoiler tags[/spoiler.] by removing the periods or some creative censor instead.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 01:14:25 am »
xDxD Thats hilarious... Level 99 on Rabites of all things xD Also kinda funny, I saw the first part got locked so I made a part 2, then I saw that you had made a part 2 xD

16F jerk is evil T.T Evil to the point that I am going to ask this: Is swearing permitted on Shrine Maiden?

You mean these forums? Of course it is, otherwise, how else would people refer to captain motherfucking whats her name (not sure how she got that name though to be honest). Just don't do it in a disrespectful way towards another user or whatever.

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 01:18:44 am »
So if I were to say that a boss in a game was a "F***ing prick", minus the censoring I did, that would be ok?

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 01:29:54 am »
You mean these forums? Of course it is, otherwise, how else would people refer to captain motherfucking whats her name (not sure how she got that name though to be honest). Just don't do it in a disrespectful way towards another user or whatever.
You must have not been reading the thread from the day UFO was being released, ehehehe  :V

This. It's not just some giant grind wall you'll have to deal with. But one with virtually no new trash to speed it up. You'll be fighting trash balanced towards level 240 Reimu or so...until like level 450. At which point it's probably STILL your grind area of choice. The game is great, but they really should expect the player to not have to grind so much before new bosses at 30. They aren't even difficult unless you level, it's "I 1shot your entire party until you level up 200 levels first" kind of difficult. It's like being forced to hit level 99 in Secret of mana via killing rabites
Kind of surprising, considering how well balanced the rest of the game is... even though around 16F you have to grind a bit IMO, making some of the later parts of the game need grinding is a cool thing, helps make sure you get your ass kicked a little bit. Plus, you can try doing the bosses at lower levels then recommended for extra challenge. Its really nice.

Although, that 30F grind wall is just ridiculous. And is there any point to beating the Plus Disk final boss more then once, other then the fact that it gets harder? And how much worse does it get, anyway? Just wondering. I mean, the person whose beaten it over 15 times... damn.
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Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 01:32:35 am »
I'm not a mod so I don't really want to tell you what's acceptable behaviour. But I've never seen anybody get in trouble for cursing without disrespecting another user before. If you're talking to another user, you can probably get in trouble if you swear or not if what you say isn't endearing. Letty likes it if you say she has no personality for example >=P, or whatever that line was Elixir said.

You can check out the forum rules and guidelines here:
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=17.0

I see no mention about swearing or cursing.

Let's try to re-rail this though since it is a brand new thread.
ummm...

Nitori sucks (I'm joking! that's just bait >=P).

No seriously, in case new members don't know, there IS a wiki for this game (which is currently in development, but it has oodles of good info still)

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou

You can download the 2.4 patch for this game at: http://www.mediafire.com/?mzdgl54mxmi
(Garlyle's upload I think, thank him)

Install order is:
game, plus disk, 2.4 patch, translation patch.

Milkyway64

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 01:47:05 am »
You must have not been reading the thread from the day UFO was being released, ehehehe  :V
Kind of surprising, considering how well balanced the rest of the game is... even though around 16F you have to grind a bit IMO, making some of the later parts of the game need grinding is a cool thing, helps make sure you get your ass kicked a little bit. Plus, you can try doing the bosses at lower levels then recommended for extra challenge. Its really nice.

Although, that 30F grind wall is just ridiculous. And is there any point to beating the Plus Disk final boss more then once, other then the fact that it gets harder? And how much worse does it get, anyway? Just wondering. I mean, the person whose beaten it over 15 times... damn.

No point other than personal satisfaction, as far as I know. You just get more of his equipment drop.

It's the most disappointing final boss ever. There is NO story leading up to it at ALL. It doesn't even have a proper name! The only dialogue we get before the fight is Marisa commenting on how it looks weak. The dialogue after, I'd bet, is also completely anti climactic and lame. There is NO drive to beat it other than to beat it. There are NO rewards except the personal trophy of being able to say you wasted enough time to beat a generic boss with super beefed stats. I am 99% certain this is the game maker's way of trolling you. That last percent goes to a hopefully satisfying conclusion post-fight.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 01:52:53 am »
Btw, what is the name of the circle that made this game anyway? The english name if it has one please. I check their webpage and it doesn't even seem to be in Japanese, anybody know if they are up to something new? I kinda wanna try out anything new they make if they make it (I know labyrinth is new so they wont have anything other than a trial of anything new they make, and probably not even that, but still).

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 02:04:03 am »
Btw, what is the name of the circle that made this game anyway? The english name if it has one please. I check their webpage and it doesn't even seem to be in Japanese, anybody know if they are up to something new? I kinda wanna try out anything new they make if they make it (I know labyrinth is new so they wont have anything other than a trial of anything new they make, and probably not even that, but still).

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Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 02:10:49 am »
Thanks, name looks Japanese enough. I wouldn't be able to tell if that's Kanji or some other language, but I see Peso is spelled in Hiragana/katakana I recognize.

Guess I just need a special font to see the website, it gives me garbage characters, boxes and numbers and such.

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 04:40:25 am »
For the love of cookies, pop and pizza! Yukari Yakumo the freaking murderer of me to many times! WTF am I supposed to do about her Djinn Storm and IN Barrier or whatever it's called!?

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 04:50:26 am »
For the love of cookies, pop and pizza! Yukari Yakumo the freaking murderer of me to many times! WTF am I supposed to do about her Djinn Storm and IN Barrier or whatever it's called!?
About Djinn Storm... well, not much you CAN do. Characters with high SP recovery and/or low cost skills help, like Chen and Minoriko. Also, if you aren't at least around Reimu Lv75, you'll probably be raped by her attacks later on, so aim for that at a minimum before trying.
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Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 05:14:16 am »
For the love of cookies, pop and pizza! Yukari Yakumo the freaking murderer of me to many times! WTF am I supposed to do about her Djinn Storm and IN Barrier or whatever it's called!?

She's just plain hard. Good luck >=P.

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 05:24:10 am »
Quote
least around Reimu Lv75

My Reimu is Lv85, and I can't win that fight...

Yukari, as I said, is freaking cheap. Her 2nd stage is Hell-ish due to debuffs and Djinn Storm having murked us SP-wise. Chen is useless by Stage 3, Flight of Idaten will deal 700~ damage at best after Yukari's Buff. Mesh of Light & Dark > A spell I can't remember > Mesh of Light & Dark > Game Over. the 1st Mesh either kills or causes PAR, the 2nd spell weakens and the 2nd Mesh kills the chars who got hit by the PAR effect... WTF!

How much HP does she even have, Total and per Stage, any tips for her ???


*sigh* I need a break from this T-T

Milkyway64

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 06:29:56 am »
Reisen goddammit. Debuffs > Yukari.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 06:32:08 am »
Reisen goddammit. Debuffs > Yukari.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention this. She has 0 debuff resistance, and can be hit by PAR sometimes as well.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 06:47:41 am »
Eh, I tried debuffing her myself but her buff seemed to override it completely. still +50% to everything regardless of how low she was before I recall.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 07:11:09 am »
Overbuff 15F to 500%, kill the boss before she can even Djinn storm. :D

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 07:21:07 am »
Who should I drop then?? I have Remilia, Reimu, Sanae, Marisa, Meiling, Flandre, Tenshi, Patchy, Chen, Alice, Ran and Wriggle as my party of 12. I have every char available right now. I even tried Tenshi's SoR to kill her Buff, only half of it was removed, ATK, DEF and EVD to be exact T-T

How in the name of Coca-Cola and cookies do I do THAT!? If it's a joke then... I can't over buff her past 300% before the buffers get pwnt(playing along with joke) xD If you actually meant for me to do that, then explain plox :3
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 07:24:46 am »
Question: I really don't want to use Flandre. Is it possible to complete the game without her, or is use of her flat-out manditory as many of you seem to be making her out to be?

EDIT:
Quote
Nitori sucks (I'm joking! that's just bait >=P).
I don't think that's really baiting when I'm literally the only person who seems to disagree with that opinion. =V
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:28:18 am by AlexX »

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 07:49:55 am »
Answer: Flandre is completly optional in obtaining, but if you want to progress into the Plus Disk you need to beat her. Even then, nothing is forcing you to use her. I use her cause she has INSANE ATK growth and great MAG growth, which for a Composite Attacker like her those growths both matter, and those growths let her cause insane dmg. My Remi can deal about 24k~ with Spear and a full ATK buff while Flandre can do that with NO buff, just by using Starbow Break. Not forced to obtain, and if obtained, not forced to use.

Side note: I don't think Nitori sucks either, she just doesn't seem all that good either. At the time I used her Linear Gun, 10k while Marisa's Master Spark dealt 30k, and Remilia's Spear the Gungnir dealt 13k~, with Curse thats about 19k-20k. Now that my Spark does about 40k to semi-MYS resitant foes, and like 53k+ to alot of others, I may test Nitori again for a dmg comparison.

Nitori is great until her stats show up, then she could be called nerfed, she has great potential with her moves, but her stats ruin the capability... how sad :(

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 08:03:09 am »
Flan is too good to not use. Kinda like Patchy. My first play didn't use Patchy and I struggled every floor until I restarted.

Obv 500% buff was achieved by cheating :V
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 08:52:33 am »
16F boss fight spoilers.

16F is actually not very hard at all, but you need very specific information (and a calculator, but I'm sure you have one by now) to make her a cakewalk. I beat her with Reimu at Lv. 78, and probably could've done it lower if I wanted.

Key information:
-Very high (or complete?) PAR resistance
-Very low stat-debuff resistance
-Very resistant to SPI
-Very weak to NTR
-650k HP
-All her attacks are magic based.
-She can use NTR (Sakura Blizzard) and MYS (Piercing Light) attacks, but her most dangerous attacks by far are WND (Flying Insect's Nest) and SPI (everything else that's elemental).
-Uses Djinn Storm -> Barrier Change (DEF+MND Up 50%) at 400k HP, Barrier change changes her to her second form.
-Second form unlocks Objective Barrier (Multi-target SPI attack, lowers DEF and MND) and Charming Quadruple Barrier (Multi-target SPI attack, lowers ATK and MAG)
-Uses Djinn Storm -> Barrier Change at 200k HP. Barrier change changes her to her third form.
-Right after changing to her third form, she will use IN Quadruple Barrier (All stats Up 100%), then spam Mesh of Light and Darkness (strong multi-target SPI attack) and Hyperactive Flying Object(strong multi-target non-elemental attack). THIS POINT SHOULD NOT MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST.

More detailed strategy:

First matter is surviving her. As said, WND and SPI are the attacks you should be most afraid of. I generally suggest using two tanks in your first two slots, and giving them the best SPI, WND and MND equipment you have, since quite a few of her attacks are row-based. After that, pick another 4 or so characters who can survive a magic onslaught and pump their SPI and MND up. Try to make sure the two tanks + 2 of these 4 characters are always at the front when Yukari gets a turn, so that you can take her magic attacks decently. I heavily suggest Reimu, Minoriko, Sanae and Ran among these 4, so you can keep them out and keep them buffing and healing everyone if needed, especially during form 2 when Yukari likes to debuff your MND with Objective Barrier. Have those 4 buff defenses, and bring Reisen along as well to nerf Yukari's MAG and SPD and you should have no problems surviving her attacks in forms 1 and 2. Yukari might do a move that heals all her stat-debuffs; if she does, just bring Reisen out again (carefully) to debuff her again.

Djinn Storm isn't hard to deal with if you're expecting it. When she's close to 400k HP, put a fresh Discarder on her and make sure she's -50% in MAG and SPD especially, choose 2 members who you think can recover SP the fastest/use little of it to function (Minoriko excels here), beat her down past the threshold, then bring out those 4 and buff everyone's MND before Djinn Storm goes out. After it does, focus like mad, heal/rebuff if you need to, survive a few more turns, Discarder her again once Reisen gets enough SP, and regain your momentum.

Attacking wise, as stated earlier, she's extremely weak to NTR. She also has very high MND, so most magic will not work well; Kaguya's and Patchouli's MND piercing can work okay if you must. Suwako is heavily, heavily recommended for this fight; it's very much possible to break 100k damage using Croaking Frog if you've been spending some of your bonuses on her ATK, and with some ATK buffs during the fight. Otherwise, bring your offensive powerhouses, preferably those who are relatively quick as well; Suika, Chen, Flandre, etc. But keep them heavily protected as they're important for the end; don't ever let them be in the front 4 when Yukari's about to attack, especially since during her second form, she can nerf your attackers' ATK and MAG if you keep them out. I also highly suggest only using one offensive character to throw attacks at her occasionally, and leave the other ones in reserve at all times, using Ran to buff their ATK.

If you couldn't tell by the above, the key part of beating Yukari easily is NOT LETTING HER BARRIER CHANGE TO HER THIRD FORM. Gank her HARD before she can do it. Ping her down to as close to 200k as possible, use Ran to raise everyone's ATK stats while she's soaking up magic hits throughout the whole battle, so that your attackers should have +60% (except whoever you chose to ping Yukari down) and make sure Reisen's brought her DEF, MND and SPD down to -30-50% (takes quite a few discarders thanks to her Barrier Change buff at 400k HP). When she's close to 200k HP, wait for her to use a long-delay move like Sakura Blizzard, then bring out all your big attackers (or Kaguya, who can make your best attacker go twice) in all your slots and blast her down before she gets her next turn. In my case, Suwako's Croaking Frog -> Kaguya's Buddha's Stone Bowl on Suwako -> Suwako's Croaking Frog again often did enough by itself; put other big attackers with ATK boosts in the other two slots should make it a certainty. And even if you can't gank her completely, you'll have lowered her HP by so much that you only need to survive and DD her slightly for her last form to beat her for good; and it also helps that she spends the two turns after Djinn Storm buffing herself only, giving you time to recover SP for a last hurrah.

If you follow this ganking method, you generally shouldn't have any problems and the fight is actually fairly quick and painless; I ended up farming her for her Gran Grimoire drop.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 10:13:52 am »
Flan is too good to not use. Kinda like Patchy. My first play didn't use Patchy and I struggled every floor until I restarted.
I'm using Patchy. >.>

I don't want to use that particular character because the drawbacks really turn me away. Even if she doesn't reduce everyone's active meter by far too much, she deals damage to herself in a game that has very little leeway for such things.

EDIT:
Quote
I don't think Nitori sucks either, she just doesn't seem all that good either. At the time I used her Linear Gun, 10k while Marisa's Master Spark dealt 30k, and Remilia's Spear the Gungnir dealt 13k~, with Curse thats about 19k-20k. Now that my Spark does about 40k to semi-MYS resitant foes, and like 53k+ to alot of others, I may test Nitori again for a dmg comparison.
Just keep in mind the differences in skill points. My Nitori has 40 invested in her attack (and Marisa has the same in her magic) and both deal perfectly acceptable damage.

Also remember that Master Spark eats up all remaining SP for extra damage while Nitori's is a flat-88 price. While that seems like an obvious reminder, it still means it's easy for Marisa to overpower Nitori since most will be letting it loose with more than just the bare minimum required to activate the spell.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 10:21:53 am by AlexX »

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Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2010, 10:18:05 am »
Flan is one of my top 3 fave Touhou characters, but I decided not to use her. I just didn't think she'd be useful for bosses. Yes she does patchy damage physically, without terrible speed. But unlike patchy, she has TERRIBLE defense AND mnd. She can't take a hit from anything at all without being launched into outer space. Those kind of defensive stats make her almost impossible to be the "MVP" of a boss fight IMO.

Now I haven't tried her so maybe she doesn't get clobbered all the time, but I really don't see how people can keep her alive for long during a boss when people think patchy gets killed easily (who is hard to kill for me because her mnd is so damn high she takes virtually 0 damage from all kinds of attacks, and physical ones tends to target the front row, except for row attacks, which she survives fine...Well, arrow rain and needle parade own her, those are the only 2 attacks I have seen do that so far though)

Flandre is however, the ultimate trash clearing power level character. THATS why people like her I think most of all. Nobody helps you grind levels faster than someone who can 1shot ko the entire enemy party, while moving first to do it too.
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2010, 10:30:11 am »
Flandre is however, the ultimate trash clearing power level character. THATS why people like her I think most of all. Nobody helps you grind levels faster than someone who can 1shot ko the entire enemy party, while moving first to do it too.
That's understandable. Especially in a game like this that mandates so much grinding once you hit floor ~12...

Personally though, I'm banking on a few of my characters including the upcoming Orin to be covering that, but I'll have to see since I only have your guys' words for it.

On that subject, I need a nickname for that character. Anyone have an idea for what ___bitch nickname to give her? I can't give her the obvious one since Chen is already around to kill the ambiguity, and someone else already has the ambiguous nickname "deathbitch".

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 11:12:10 am »
I think the spoiler naming scheme is silly. Just use their name in the tag IMO.

Anyway I think I'll start theorycrafting tomorrow. First
step: find out if skillpoint costs can be derived from base stat growth. I think it's directly proportionate but figuring out the formula will be
neccesary.

Also does anybody know for fact the exact delay of moves? I mean I haven't tested yet to make sure but just off the top of my head it seems like most abilities and focus and attack cost half the bar exactly. Switching and low delay moves (such as ayas moves) cost a quarter, big delay moves like patchy 30sp nukes or asteroid belt cost 75 percent of the bar. Some cost all. Chens flight of whatever costs 1/8th.

Anyway I'll get the exact figures myself but I'd appreciate it if someone is aware of anything like smaller deviations from those catagories, maybe 45 percent or 52 etc. Should be easy enough to test using lvl 1 guys since they all have the same speed. But I just don't want
to be unaware of any possible exceptions.

trancehime

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 01:26:17 pm »
Flan is one of my top 3 fave Touhou characters, but I decided not to use her. I just didn't think she'd be useful for bosses. Yes she does patchy damage physically, without terrible speed. But unlike patchy, she has TERRIBLE defense AND mnd. She can't take a hit from anything at all without being launched into outer space. Those kind of defensive stats make her almost impossible to be the "MVP" of a boss fight IMO

my Flandre takes hits as well as Tenshi does now :[ I'm a terrible person.

Her skills are awesome, too bad they are delay hell...

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Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 02:29:27 pm »
Also does anybody know for fact the exact delay of moves? I mean I haven't tested yet to make sure but just off the top of my head it seems like most abilities and focus and attack cost half the bar exactly. Switching and low delay moves (such as ayas moves) cost a quarter, big delay moves like patchy 30sp nukes or asteroid belt cost 75 percent of the bar. Some cost all. Chens flight of whatever costs 1/8th.
The delays vary to whatever weird percents the maker wanted to use; just google translate the wiki if you want to see them. Although, I haven't checked to see if all characters have this information, I know at least most of them do.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww19.atwiki.jp%2Fth_maze%2F&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Look at "After using the gauge volume". If you can't tell who the character is from the translation name, you should be able to tell from the order they're in or by their stats/skills.

Also, after looking at japanese wiki, I believe that what I suspected is true; Orin's english wiki section messed up and said her two pure-physical attacks were MAG-based. Okay, now I kinda feel like trying her out on this playthrough~

Oh, and I also saw that they did indeed specifically fix the Yukari/Kaguya infinite action bar combo in the most recent patch. Eheheh~
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:37:50 pm by NeoSerela »
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