So I've finally gotten around to trying Fire emblem

[Ghaleon]

For years now, I've had people suggest Fire emblem to me whenever I would ask for any reccommendations for good Turn based strategy games (which is a dying genre IMO). Only just recently have I gotten around to trying the game however (see subject title for which version...ok so the subject title changed. it's shadow dragon). My very initial sub-30 min impression was that the game looked very promising. However, now I'm at chapter 8 or so. The series (or at least the iteration that I'm playing) seems highly overrated unfortunately.

This isn't a bash to the series, it's my opinions on why it's not all that, and asking you guys if it gets better later on (and how), or if it's just unique to the version I'm playing.

1: Leveling up characters is not exciting, and it's actually somewhat tedious. For example, upon a level up, I don't get to choose anything. Lack of customization for level ups in an rpgish game is expected however. Unfortunately it's also randomized. I really HATE how I can get absolutely nothing but a single hp one level up, reset the game, level up again, and get pretty much everything leveled up the next time, at the same level.

2: strategy is almost nonexistent. I mean playing against the CPU in advance wars is almost like taking candy from a baby, but in Fire emblem (so far), it's even worse. There is absolutely no challenge to the game at all so far...Unless

3: too RNG dependent. OK so this guy that normally hits for 6 damage can crit 1% of the time for like 18. effectively 1-shotting my guy, which sucks because once a guy dies, they're gone for good. I understand the game has multiple hardmodes, which is absolutely awesome. But I'm wondering if they are legitimately hard, or if they will just cause more bad RNG reset frustration during perfectly viable strategies. I understand you can avoid this problem by leveling "properly", but making sure everyone is near a level, saving at a  safe spot, then proceeding to complete leveling + resetting over and over until the stats given are good isn't exactly my idea of a good time.

I understand there are a lot of fans of this series in here, I don't mean to bash your fave game, but so far it just feels like I'm not going to enjoy it. do these problems only exist with shadow dragon? Are there redeeming qualities otherwise in the other games? Please offer your input.

[Esoterica]

shadow dragon

Good job picking the one terrible game in the series.

[theshirn]

Good job picking the one terrible game in the series.

Amen.  Play FE7.  That's just "Fire Emblem" in the US.  (In Japan it was titled Rekka no Ken, something along the lines of "the Blazing Sword".)

To answer:
1) Yes, Fire Emblem has purely random levelups (except one mode in FE9, but that's only accessible after beating the game anyway and is not relevant to the purposes of this discussion).  Part of the fun of the series lies in dealing with what the RNG throws at you.  Yes, you can get terrible levelups and then have to play carefully and strategically to get through levels; on the other hand, sometimes you get great levels and end up with people that can plow through the opposition with sheer power.  If you're committed to maxing the stats on all your units, you basically can go find another series, or prepare to spend literal days reloading.  And reloading doesn't even work for most of the series anyway.  Also,you should note that the characters in Shadow Dragon have, as a whole, the worst average growth rates in the series; a three-point level is pretty good, whereas in other games, "pretty good" doesn't really start until five-point levels on the good units.

2) FE has plenty of strategy.  Yes, it is RNG dependent, but the game is far more intelligent use of the proper units, weapons and terrain than it is luck.

3) I won't say that dumb luck isn't a factor, or that you can't get screwed out of victory by a random critical hit, but for the most part it is about how you use the resources allotted to you.  Know your units, their respective strengths and weaknesses, examine the terrain, check your enemies, and plan ahead.

I am a massive fan of the series, so my opinion is certainly biased in its favor, but I'd say it's a much better idea to start the series with FE7.  Shadow Dragon is...not representative of the series at its best, or even close to it, and I'd only recommend it to serious fans of the series; certainly not to your typical SRPG gamer.  FE7, however, is newb-friendly and an excellent game.  Start with that, play until Chapter 15-20 or so (won't take as long as you think), and then try and assess it again.

[trancehime]

Good job picking the one terrible game in the series.

FESD is probably the worst game to start (FE1 is even worse) from the modern ages, so yes, I'm thirding what this guy says.

vs. 1
Leveling up is not something you intentionally do, well, unless you arena abuse, but that takes the challenge out of the game anyway. You're supposed to form strategies based on terrain, WTA and the range. And following A Terrible Person's opinion, FESD has characters with pretty shit growths - some of the more impressive characters you only get in Gaiden chapters that involve dying a lot and there are only a few outstanding units in the game. Doing research with data hacking, a LOT of units would become good if they got straight +1 levels across the board, stats would be horribly overpowered. Rena would have excellent Swordmaster stats, for one thing, and she easily has the worst growths in the entire game next to a bunch of others.

2) Go play Thracia 776 (FE5) and then tell me FE has no strategy and challenge.

3) Don't bitch about RNG blessing. It's part of the game and partially the challenge comes from micromanaging your resources and dealing with punishments from the RNG.

[Stuffman]

I'm the kind of guy who likes leveling up all his characters equally, so FE is nightmarish for me.

[Grand Octopus]

I've only played Path of Radiance (though I have Radiant Dawn somewhere) and it was a decent'ish SRPG. It lacks a lot of the complexity of e.g. basically any Nippon Ichi release, which may or may not be a good thing depending on your POV. Not my favourite SRPG by any means, but I had enough fun with it to justify the purchase.

[linthuslyth]

Hmm... I think you own the thread where I posted a long-loving post for FE.

Anyway, I never played anything  after Sacred Stones so it's been a while. But I have played most of the games before that. I do see some of your point, except for your second one... which I'll assume is just a "bad game in the series" thing. From what the others have said, the designers seemed to have gotten lazy and decide to pass crappy builds as "fake" difficulty and trash the whole strategy aspect of the game.

The real fun and challenge of FE, I think, is playing it with whatever the game throws at you. Predetermined stat growths, permanent deaths, RNG suddenly favoring the computer. etc.  In that sense, you shouldn't really see FE as an RPG since you're not really playing any individual roles.

So, yes, some people have already advised you to get a different game. Although, I do remember you wanted a challenge and maybe FE7 may not be for you. You could always try Thracia 776, which can be a total bitch. The first one in the GBA, Fire Emblem: Fūin no Tsurugi, was also pretty decent... if I remember correctly.

[trancehime]

Fuuin no Tsurugi was only hard because you had:

a) The worst lords ever
b) The worst characters ever of the modern FEs
c) Unbalance

[theshirn]

a) The worst lords ever

Leaf wants a word with you.

[AlexX Unlimited]

-Building on what TheShim said, there's also some strategy in character use, as well... You can get ~50 units per game for a reason, and aside from FEDS all the ones given English releases have been balanced enough that you can use pretty much anyone. If someone isn't working out well enough, you can usually get by just fine by dropping them and using someone new. Some are more annoying to train, but then again, there's always high-risk and high-reward stuff. Alternatively, you can use units that start out promoted since they're easy to use off the bat, but they usually won't be as powerful as ones trained up from lower levels.

-Part of Fire Emblem's charm compared to other strategy games is its simplicity. The RNG is indeed a factor, but if you set up your strategy right randomness shouldn't matter too much. If you're worried about criticals, raise a unit with good defenses who can eat criticals and stay standing, or if you want to fight fire with fire (so to speak), you can go with a unit that's hard to hit (since an enemy has to hit before they can critical).

2) Go play Thracia 776 (FE5) and then tell me FE has no strategy and challenge.

To date I'm still trying to figure out whether FE5 or Maniac difficulty FE9 (Path of Radience) (mode being Japan-only for some arbitrary reason) is the most difficult game in the series.

EDIT:

Leaf wants a word with you.

Even Leaf can be made awesome if you abuse scrolls, made even easier to do by the fact he's not forced to sit out missions thanks to his immunty to Fatigue.

[trancehime]

Leaf wants a word with you.

You need to play FE5 more, then.

[FinnKaenbyou]

I play Fire Emblem.

I am terrible at it.

Like, 'keep on leaving a hole for enemies to walk through and stab Rhys in the face' terrible.

This does not help when I insist on finishing the game with everybody alive.

The only game in the series I ever actually managed to BEAT was Sacred Stones for the GBA, which doesn't mean much given that it specifically gives you a segment for the sake of grinding/power-levelling. >_>

[Ramus]

I used to play Fire Emblem, the latest games keep letting me down.  Still, FE7 with Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn was good for the fast gameplay and variety of battle scenarios it threw you into.  No one on the team was any "better" than the others, except for maybe Hector, but eh.  The game's strategy comes not from uses special skills or anything like most other SRPGs.  Instead, it's a matter of moving your team deal with the constant and varying ways enemies attack. At some points, it's necessary for a full team planned charge to take out a boss safely.

FE8 is different in the fact that you had towers to level up in allowing people to grind.  Fun fact:  Ignored those.  FE8 was different in the fact that it favored throwing more weaker enemies at you than fewer stronger ones.  Still, unlike past games, everyone was useful and you couldn't go wrong.

FE9, oh I loved FE9.  This game decided to scratch whatever it happened with FE8 and previous and put your group in the command of a mercenary instead of royalty.  There's a reason why everyone likes Ike.  Anyway, this game has enemies about as strong as your team taking you on and with greater numbers.  This leads to frustration at first, but then you begin to realize that you can use that gate as a chokepoint, that it's fundamentally a better idea to pincer strike than charge head on, or that giving ground to take up cover in the bushes is a good idea.  I don't want to say FE9 is harder than the others, it just has a different take on Fire Emblem strategy, and one that I like.  More so with the odd sets of skills your characters can have, including the oh so awesome Rage skill.  Basically ups criticals to 50% when you have less than half your HP.  This is great strategy-wise as it makes playing dangerous useful instead of sitting back and waiting to pick off enemies.

FE10 SUCKED.  The sudden jumps in difficulty, your weak team at the beginning, and general trying to be like FE9 but failing.  It tried giving you more units to work with, causing the game to end up being one big army VS bigger army fest which is annoying beyond all reason since there's more room for mistake.  Fire Emblem just works better with about six guys on your team per chapter.

Yeah, the english games I've played.  And FE5 is scary.  I mean, that game just decides to hurt you the worst it can.  FE4 was interesting though if a bit large in scale for my tastes.

[trancehime]

Dawn Brigade sucks, this is an undeniable fact, but then, you have to remember that there are several AMAZING units in FE10 that more than make up for the crappitude that is Micaiah's team >_>

Play some FE romhacks! You can never go wrong with those.

[theshirn]

Play some FE romhacks! You can never go wrong with those.

Give MageKnight404's FE7 one a shot.  Very well done.

You need to play FE5 more, then.

You know, I have enough RAGE issues with Touhou.  Do you REALLY want me to add FE5 to that?

FE10 SUCKED.  The sudden jumps in difficulty, your weak team at the beginning, and general trying to be like FE9 but failing.  It tried giving you more units to work with, causing the game to end up being one big army VS bigger army fest which is annoying beyond all reason since there's more room for mistake.  Fire Emblem just works better with about six guys on your team per chapter.

First off: FE10's American release mislabeled the difficulty modes as Easy, Normal, Hard.  The correct names are Normal, Hard, Maniac.  Play Easy, it's actually Normal, and is pretty fun.  Normal, which is hard, will curbstomp you if you're not ready for it.

Second: The Dawn Brigade sucks, yes, but Edward and Jill alone can hack through most of Act 1 pretty well.  Facing off against the Greil Mercenaries is the really hard part.

[AlexX Unlimited]

You know, I have enough RAGE issues with Touhou.  Do you REALLY want me to add FE5 to that?

I dunno, SpyroDi said it wasn't as hard as many make it out to be... Then again, they've played FE5 so often they could probably beat it blindfolded... >.>;

Second: The Dawn Brigade sucks, yes, but Edward and Jill alone can hack through most of Act 1 pretty well.  Facing off against the Greil Mercenaries is the really hard part.

And Zihark, though all teams have at least a few superstars, and the game seems to encourage using everyone (and giving you the chance to do so when you get the chance to make your own teams), but it seems the Greil Mercenaries ended up getting too many awesome members...

[trancehime]

The Greil Mercs are led by Ike, can you really expect it NOT to have the most awesome?!

I kid, I kid. Anyway.

Give MageKnight404's FE7 one a shot.  Very well done.

Give FE8 GIRLS and FEChina a shot. Very well done.

[AlexX Unlimited]

[...] and FEChina a shot.

You mean the FE8 one? The one where your allies reguarly cap all stats and enemies *STILL* outclass them incredibly?

[?q]

FEDS is only good because of its acronym.  Beyond that it's pretty lackluster in every department.

FE7 is pretty easy until you play Hard Mode, but has a bunch of likeable characters and the sprites are still cool after six years.  Saying that the Lords in FE7 were the weakest of all time is kind of unbelievable when you compare them with Roy (who wasn't bad, but not Lyn or Hector) and Micaiah (who again isn't bad if you put time and attention into her).

I'm with Ramus in liking FE9, because the playable characters are actually balanced enough to where there's a reason to use all of them and the soundtrack is easily the best in the series.

[trancehime]

FEDS is only good because of its acronym.  Beyond that it's pretty lackluster in every department.

FE7 is pretty easy until you play Hard Mode, but has a bunch of likeable characters and the sprites are still cool after six years.  Saying that the Lords in FE7 were the weakest of all time is kind of unbelievable when you compare them with Roy (who wasn't bad, but not Lyn or Hector) and Micaiah (who again isn't bad if you put time and attention into her).

But FE7 doesn't have the worst lords of all time. I said FE6 >___>

You mean the FE8 one? The one where your allies reguarly cap all stats and enemies *STILL* outclass them incredibly?

Yeah. The one with UBER BRUNYA

[AlexX Unlimited]

Yeah. The one with UBER BRUNYA

And you're suggesting this to someone who isn't sure if they like the series, yet? Someone not the mortal incarnation of Tenshi? >.>

[trancehime]

And you're suggesting this to someone who isn't sure if they like the series, yet? Someone not the mortal incarnation of Tenshi? >.>

Man, by your logic that'd make me a mortal incarnation of Tenshi >_>

And, to be fair, I don't know if I was wholly serious with suggesting ChinaFE, but I still found it an excellent romhack given all the extensive hacking and dialogue changing that was made.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Man, by your logic that'd make me a mortal incarnation of Tenshi >_>

And, to be fair, I don't know if I was wholly serious with suggesting ChinaFE, but I still found it an excellent romhack given all the extensive hacking and dialogue changing that was made.

I wasn't saying you had to be the mortal incarnation of Tenshi to enjoy it, I was saying that'd have to be the case to play it with such little experience with the rest of the series.

ChinaFE is indeed a pretty top-notch hack, but it's best for people with a good amount of experience with the series looking for a greater challenge. Like FE5, I'd wait to suggest it to someone until they've got a few games under their belt.

[Third Eye Lem]

I only played FE7-9, but I'll give you my opinions on them:

7-- Good strategy game, I never finished Lyn's plot but it's not bad.

8-- It's another good game, but thanks to the tower, you can eschew strategy and just grind your units to level 20.

9-- My favorite of the FE series, and what the future games should have been. Strategy is good. Bonus EXP is even better. This game does so many things right that I wish I could go back and play it (my [girl]friend has it).

I never played Shadow Dragon, but if most of the people say it's crap, then it's crap. Or at least subpar compared to the previous games while still being good. I never played FE4/5 because I haven't bothered to look for a full translation (I heard 5 wasn't that good anyways because of the tension system), and FE6 I heard was hard (Roy and the things it lacks compared to FE7 pushed me further away from it) Never played FE10, but my [girl]friend likes it.

About those rom hacks...Can someone PM me the links to those? I'd like to try them.

[?q]

FE6 has inverse exponential difficulty.
Once you promote a unit or two you're set for life.  Until then it's kind of ludicrous :V

[Fightest]

I see several people using the term RPG. Why? Fire Emblem is in no way an RPG just because there are classes and levels. Stop using that term, it's misleading (you keep using that word, not what you think it means etc.).

Also, I think Radiant Dawn was the best FE I've played. I haven't played Genealogy of Holy War, which I understand is fantastic, but the ridiculous epicness and two promotions of RD is what makes it shine for me.

[Ramus]

Because it is an RPG.  It has all of the elements of one except with more battlefield strategy (Thus, the strategy RPGness) and several more units involved.

[Fightest]

It has all of the elements of one

And what would those be? There's no player-controlled character development, there's no player-controlled plot advancement, there's no role to play for the player, therefore it's not a Role-Playing Game.

[Ghaleon]

And what would those be? There's no player-controlled character development, there's no player-controlled plot advancement, there's no role to play for the player, therefore it's not a Role-Playing Game.

"Fire emblem wikipedia"
1st line:
Fire Emblem (ファイアーエムブレム?) is a fantasy tactical role-playing video game.

"role-playing game"
A genre of video game is also referred to as role-playing games. These games do not involve "role-playing" in the sense used in role-playing games;[1][4] they take their name from the settings and game mechanics which they inherit from early role-playing games.[5] Due to the popularity of video games, the terms "role-playing game" and "RPG" have both to some degree been co-opted by the video gaming industry; as a result, games in which players play the roles of characters are sometimes referred to by the retronyms "pen and paper role-playing games" or "tabletop role-playing games,"[2]

That would be why >=P

[Fightest]

"Fire emblem wikipedia"
1st line:
Fire Emblem (ファイアーエムブレム?) is a fantasy tactical role-playing video game.

"role-playing game"
A genre of video game is also referred to as role-playing games. These games do not involve "role-playing" in the sense used in role-playing games;[1][4] they take their name from the settings and game mechanics which they inherit from early role-playing games.[5] Due to the popularity of video games, the terms "role-playing game" and "RPG" have both to some degree been co-opted by the video gaming industry; as a result, games in which players play the roles of characters are sometimes referred to by the retronyms "pen and paper role-playing games" or "tabletop role-playing games,"[2]

That would be why >=P

Heh, fine, if the industry itself wants to call it that, then fine by me. But I maintain that calling calling one's chicken "fillet steak" doesn't actually make it that even if it might look like it from a distance to a blind person.

On-topic - I actually kinda liked Shadow Dragon. Units were weaker, but it still had all the usual mechanics, and some challenging fights, and that's pretty much all I want from Fire Emblem.