Topic: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?  (Read 1434 times)

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Lunatic_Reimu

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Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« on: April 04, 2019, 11:49:50 am »
Hello,
something that's been bugging me, so I'd appreciate some input and opinions.

Since the first time I booted up Touhou 5 years ago, it always booted by default into 16:9 for me. I always thought this was the normal way the game plays until seeing everyone's runs on Youtube with the black bars on the side (being in 4:3) and it got me thinking. Needless to say, after all this time, I got used to it like this, and I don't even see it as stretched, if anything, when trying it out on 4:3 I'm seeing everything too squished. I really prefer having my screen full rather than the black bars on the sides.

I know there are disadvantages to playing in 16:9 like your movement horizontally will seem faster than vertically, and patterns that are meant to be circular look slightly oval instead, but I got used to it and doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just want to know if it is considered as cheating by playing in 16:9 instead?

Thanks in advance for any advice and input :)

SomeGuy712x

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2019, 06:09:37 pm »
I'm not sure what the official ruling would be, but in my opinion, I see no problem with playing the games in 16:9 if that's what you prefer.

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 07:01:08 pm »
Right, I don't believe you're cheating, not by any reasonable definition of the word. Don't lose sleep over this.
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Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2019, 07:36:34 pm »
Whew, thanks for all the positive replies, puts my mind more at ease hearing it from other members. I strictly play no bombs, and it takes a hell of a lot of effort (and multiple attempts) to hit a Lunatic 1cc, so I wouldn't want my run to be invalid due to it being in 16:9 instead of 4:3 which is why I'm asking to confirm. I might decide to upload these to Youtube someday, think I'll get any hate for it being in 16:9?

Right, I don't believe you're cheating, not by any reasonable definition of the word. Don't lose sleep over this.

Haha believe me I've already lost 2 days' worth wrecking my head on it before deciding to come ask here :P

Thanks for all the help and quick replies, really appreciate it :)

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2019, 03:24:00 am »
Nevermind, I misread the post.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 07:41:09 am by Agent of the BSoD »
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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2019, 06:47:20 am »
Eh? The window is 640x480, 4:3.

EDIT: ahhh i see
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 07:48:44 am by Drake »

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2019, 07:32:23 am »
Eh? The window is 640x480, 4:3.
Ah, my bad. I misread the post and thought they were talking about the PC-98 games. Ignore me. :V
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Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2019, 09:09:14 pm »
Right, this kept bothering me after a month. In Touhou 6 after trying out Eternal Meek vs Sakuya countless times switching between 16:9 and 4:3, it's clearly more difficult when I'm trying it out in 4:3, it's like since the screen is narrower the bullets seem faster and the gaps are harder to spot, so I feel like I'm giving myself an advantage with 16:9 so that's not acceptable for me. So I figure the best way get this pesky thought out of my head is to just get it over and done with and switch to 4:3 indefinitely. So, just to make sure I'm doing this right, bear with me please:

1. I'm scaling on my Display in the Nvidia Control Panel. Scaling on the GPU is adding input lag compared to Display, so that's not an option. No Scaling, Aspect Ratio and Fullscreen in the Nvidia Control Panel are all doing the same thing, I still end up with the picture always in 16:9 even when No Scaling is selected. So, I'm going into my TV's Picture Options, selecting Size, and switching to 4:3 from there. Doing this is giving me the black bars on the sides even when I'm on my desktop, so I could switch to 16:9 when on my desktop and 4:3 when I'm going to play and this will give me the correct aspect ratio? Is this correct?

2. What is the best 4:3 upscaling output resolution to choose for my recording program (OBS) so even the recordings end up in 4:3? When I was recording in 16:9, I was upscaling and outputting a video of 1920x1080 which is a 16:9 resolution, and this made the video exactly like when I was playing, with no black bars. Now, even though I'm switching to 4:3 from my TV's options, the recordings are still coming out in 16:9 since 1920x1080 is a 16:9 resolution. So, I tried setting the upscaling output resolution to 1280x960, and it worked, black bars on the sides :) Would 1440x1080 be better? (i.e. the best 4:3 resolution I could get on a 1080p panel?)

3. Which Touhou games are in native 16:9 aspect ratio, so I'll know for which I don't need to set it to 4:3 from my TV's options? I think it's Touhou 13.5, 14.5 and 15.5? And the resolution doubles from Ten Desires to 1280x960, so the previous games are all in 640x480?

4. @Agent of the BSoD, PC-98 games use 640x400 resolution which is 8:5 correct? So, which is best to play them in, 16:9 or 4:3?

Thanks in advance for all the help, really appreciate it, and sorry for all the paranoia :/

Dreamleaf

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2019, 10:43:53 pm »
I can't help much in changing the aspect ratio but I will say I think the reason it feels harder is because you're less accustomed to that ratio, which doesn't surprise me would throw you off a little bit and make it feel harder. From a technical standpoint it technically is just as hard because while the gaps may appear larger, so is your own hitbox as well as the hitboxes of what you're dodging to compensate. That's the main thing to keep in mind, nearly every "advantage" it provides also provides a corresponding disadvantage so it really does even out and imo and really just comes down to preference. It couldn't hurt to try it in the 4:3 ratio more if you feel that's how Touhou should be played, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it feeling like it's given you an actual unfair advantage or that it invalidates what you've done.

It'd be like changing your controller input (keyboard, controller, joystick) it's going to feel awkward at first especially when you're accustomed to playing the game a certain way. With aspect ratio you become use to your character moving a certain speed or certain amount of distance, so when you change that ratio the distance and speed you appear to move across the screen changes as well, which would certainly throw me off in this game where you spend countless hours training your muscle memory to know just how far exactly you'll move across the screen when performing any kind of movement.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 11:00:20 pm by Dreamleaf »

Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 11:34:20 am »
I can't help much in changing the aspect ratio but I will say I think the reason it feels harder is because you're less accustomed to that ratio, which doesn't surprise me would throw you off a little bit and make it feel harder. From a technical standpoint it technically is just as hard because while the gaps may appear larger, so is your own hitbox as well as the hitboxes of what you're dodging to compensate. That's the main thing to keep in mind, nearly every "advantage" it provides also provides a corresponding disadvantage so it really does even out and imo and really just comes down to preference. It couldn't hurt to try it in the 4:3 ratio more if you feel that's how Touhou should be played, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it feeling like it's given you an actual unfair advantage or that it invalidates what you've done.

It'd be like changing your controller input (keyboard, controller, joystick) it's going to feel awkward at first especially when you're accustomed to playing the game a certain way. With aspect ratio you become use to your character moving a certain speed or certain amount of distance, so when you change that ratio the distance and speed you appear to move across the screen changes as well, which would certainly throw me off in this game where you spend countless hours training your muscle memory to know just how far exactly you'll move across the screen when performing any kind of movement.
I kept the points you mentioned in mind (believe me Iíve been wrecking my head around this for the past month), and yes I donít expect to play as good on 4:3 after being accustomed to 16:9 for all this time till I get used to it some more. I also kept in mind that everything scales in proportion (i.e. although the gaps are wider, so is your hitbox and bullets). The problem Iím finding that Iím getting an advantage from is my perception and the way Iím reacting due to that perception. It could be the same cluster of bullets, but on 16:9 my head will say Ďgo for ití, when on 4:3 Iím finding it more difficult to spot those gaps to pass through. I donít want any advantages over any other players, even if itís just perception, so, itís time to switch to 4:3. I wouldnít go as far as saying it nullifies what Iíve already accomplished, but from here on out I want to make 100% sure that Iím doing it properly and playing it how it was meant to be played. This will put my mind much more at ease.

Ohhhh changing controllers / inputs will be way worse than changing an aspect ratio! I canít play on a keyboard to save my life! Been with controllers since I was a kid and got used to them being on them for 25 years xD

So, anyone know some answers to my 4 questions so I can finally put this to rest?
Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 12:42:02 pm »
1. Yes. Surprised you've played that long with stretched resolution in the first place. Notice how bullets, characters etc. are wider in 16:9? Your horizontal movement is also (visually) faster than vertical if you stretch the game like that. Oh wait, you have. I guess you can get used to that but it's still a huge inaccuracy.

2. Duh. OBS stretches fullscreen video to whatever resolution you want if you tell it to. But as for what to choose, it's probably better to stretch to a whole multiple of original i.e. 1280x960 (which is 640x480 times two in each direction). Anything else might introduce visual errors. I don't have much experience with this, though. Just record the game in different resolutions and see if you can notice the difference.

3. Correct, except IIRC it was DDC that allowed you to change resolution first.

4. Can't answer that but want to chime in since I remember hearing that PC-98 native monitors have different-sized pixels. I don't remember whether they're wider or taller, sadly.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 12:51:11 pm by CyberAngel »

Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 03:57:04 pm »
1. Yes. Surprised you've played that long with stretched resolution in the first place. Notice how bullets, characters etc. are wider in 16:9? Your horizontal movement is also (visually) faster than vertical if you stretch the game like that. Oh wait, you have. I guess you can get used to that but it's still a huge inaccuracy.

2. Duh. OBS stretches fullscreen video to whatever resolution you want if you tell it to. But as for what to choose, it's probably better to stretch to a whole multiple of original i.e. 1280x960 (which is 640x480 times two in each direction). Anything else might introduce visual errors. I don't have much experience with this, though. Just record the game in different resolutions and see if you can notice the difference.

3. Correct, except IIRC it was DDC that allowed you to change resolution first.

4. Can't answer that but want to chime in since I remember hearing that PC-98 native monitors have different-sized pixels. I don't remember whether they're wider or taller, sadly.
Hello CyberAngel,
thanks for answering almost all my questions :)

1. Awesome, so I'll just switch between 16:9 when on my desktop, and 4:3 when I'm going to play :) Honestly the stretched resolution wasn't bothering me at all, if anything everything is looking too squished now in 4:3, but I'll adapt to that in time. It's just cause I've been feeling like I'm getting an advantage at 16:9 / makes the game slightly easier / easier to see gaps which started making me doubt and not enjoy it. Everything is feeling more claustrophobic now in 4:3 so that's a bonus! :D

2. So I just tried recording in 1440x1080, looks flawless, same as the game and my other recording at 1280x960, complete with the black bars :) I'll keep an eye out for artifacts and 'visual errors' in my new recordings just in case.

3. Ahh, you're correct about DDC being the first one. My mistake. Right, so basically only the fighters from 13.5 onwards are in native 16:9 resolution.

4. No worries, thanks for answering what you could. I did some more research and it seems that 8:5 aspect ratio should be viewed in 4:3 rather than 16:9 also. Here's where I found the info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_resolutions which states:

   W x H        Storage         Display
640 x 400       8:5                  4:3

I'd prefer it if someone could confirm this though.

Thanks for the help everyone, seems like a huge weight has been lifted off my head by just deciding to go to 4:3. If anyone disagrees with any of my statements or wants to pitch in some more info feel free :)

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 10:44:52 pm »
1. I'm scaling on my Display in the Nvidia Control Panel. Scaling on the GPU is adding input lag compared to Display, so that's not an option. No Scaling, Aspect Ratio and Fullscreen in the Nvidia Control Panel are all doing the same thing, I still end up with the picture always in 16:9 even when No Scaling is selected. So, I'm going into my TV's Picture Options, selecting Size, and switching to 4:3 from there. Doing this is giving me the black bars on the sides even when I'm on my desktop, so I could switch to 16:9 when on my desktop and 4:3 when I'm going to play and this will give me the correct aspect ratio? Is this correct?
Yes, this is correct. 640x480 is 4:3 so this would be perfectly accurate.

2. What is the best 4:3 upscaling output resolution to choose for my recording program (OBS) so even the recordings end up in 4:3? When I was recording in 16:9, I was upscaling and outputting a video of 1920x1080 which is a 16:9 resolution, and this made the video exactly like when I was playing, with no black bars. Now, even though I'm switching to 4:3 from my TV's options, the recordings are still coming out in 16:9 since 1920x1080 is a 16:9 resolution. So, I tried setting the upscaling output resolution to 1280x960, and it worked, black bars on the sides :) Would 1440x1080 be better? (i.e. the best 4:3 resolution I could get on a 1080p panel?)
1280x960 is a perfect integer scale of 640x480, so basically each pixel should theoretically changed from 1x1 pixel to 2x2 pixels (if one uses point sampling scaling that is). Whatever scaling method you use here though should be fine. If you're uploading these to Youtube, I don't recommend this only because Youtube doesn't have a 960p mode, so it'll downscale to 720p. You could always render them out in 960x720 for Youtube, though this is a 1.5x scale. Honestly, most people probably won't spot the scaling difference anyway especially once Youtube compresses the video again. You could also render out in 1920x1440, as this is a 3x scale and Youtube supports this natively, and will provide a 1080p scale. Rendering out to 1440x1080 is not a perfect integer scale but I really don't think it'd be that noticeable unless you were looking for it. If none of this even matters and they're just on your system, it honestly is up to you. This is just my two cents though.

tl;dr: Scale to whatever works for you, it should be fine.

3. Which Touhou games are in native 16:9 aspect ratio, so I'll know for which I don't need to set it to 4:3 from my TV's options? I think it's Touhou 13.5, 14.5 and 15.5? And the resolution doubles from Ten Desires to 1280x960, so the previous games are all in 640x480?
3. Ahh, you're correct about DDC being the first one. My mistake. Right, so basically only the fighters from 13.5 onwards are in native 16:9 resolution.
Yep, pretty much already answered.

4. @Agent of the BSoD, PC-98 games use 640x400 resolution which is 8:5 correct? So, which is best to play them in, 16:9 or 4:3?
If you multiply 8:5 by 2, you get 16:10 (this is the more common numbering for this ratio actually). If you multiply 4:3 by 4, you get 16:12. If you are to stick with either 16:9 or 4:3 on your screen, I'd pick 16:9 as it's much closer to the intended look. 4:3 will be rather squished looking. The PC-98 games are in fact widescreen, just not the standard ratio we currently use today.
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Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2019, 05:25:58 pm »
Yes, this is correct. 640x480 is 4:3 so this would be perfectly accurate.

1280x960 is a perfect integer scale of 640x480, so basically each pixel should theoretically changed from 1x1 pixel to 2x2 pixels (if one uses point sampling scaling that is). Whatever scaling method you use here though should be fine. If you're uploading these to Youtube, I don't recommend this only because Youtube doesn't have a 960p mode, so it'll downscale to 720p. You could always render them out in 960x720 for Youtube, though this is a 1.5x scale. Honestly, most people probably won't spot the scaling difference anyway especially once Youtube compresses the video again. You could also render out in 1920x1440, as this is a 3x scale and Youtube supports this natively, and will provide a 1080p scale. Rendering out to 1440x1080 is not a perfect integer scale but I really don't think it'd be that noticeable unless you were looking for it. If none of this even matters and they're just on your system, it honestly is up to you. This is just my two cents though.

tl;dr: Scale to whatever works for you, it should be fine.

Yep, pretty much already answered.

If you multiply 8:5 by 2, you get 16:10 (this is the more common numbering for this ratio actually). If you multiply 4:3 by 4, you get 16:12. If you are to stick with either 16:9 or 4:3 on your screen, I'd pick 16:9 as it's much closer to the intended look. 4:3 will be rather squished looking. The PC-98 games are in fact widescreen, just not the standard ratio we currently use today.
Hello Agent, thanks for jumping in to help again :)

1. Got it. I know it may sound silly, but just confirming to be sure, it doesn't make a difference that my desktop's resolution is set to 1360x768 right? (i.e. I don't need to set a 4:3 resolution for my desktop also right?)

2. Well since both you and CyberAngel recommended having the recordings in a perfect integer scale I'll do that then. Yes, you're correct about Youtube downscaling to 720p, which is why I tried shooting for 1440x1080 so I'll get in the bracket of 1080p which is 12k bitrate, 720p is 7.5k. My recordings come out between 30k - 50k bitrate, so I was worried that Youtube compression would massacre the quality. Tried uploading a video in 1280x960 to test it today and it didn't come out too bad actually, there are some very slight bouts of pixelation due to compression in Sakuya's fight which weren't present in the 1440x1080 upload I tested, but other than that it's all clear! So I guess I'll stick with 1280x960.

3. Yep all clear on this one :)

4. After doing some more thinking and research I'm still not sure on the PC-98 being in 16:9. Let me explain my thoughts:
A.) As you said that doubling 8:5 brings it to 16:10, doubling 4:3 gives you 8:6. If you halve 8:5 it becomes 4:2.5 which is quite close to 4:3 too. (I'm not sure how these things work, don't think I'm trying to be a smart ass, just sharing my thoughts and wanting to learn more).
B.) Did some scrounging around on Youtube and literally all the vids I found for PC-98 are in 4:3 by top players like Jaimers, Zigzag Wolf, even HRtP by another 2 youtubers.
C.) There's some contradicting information on the forums, while you're suggesting 16:9, in the thread how to set up Neko Project II, user Shockdude is stating that the PC-98 games were meant to be played in 4:3 aspect ratio, here's the thread for your reference, it's the final 4 posts at the bottom of the thread: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11117.30.html
D.) The common resolutions wiki list I linked which is stating that resolution 640 x 400 has a Storage Aspect Ratio of 8:5 and should have a Display Aspect Ratio of 4:3.

I use T98 Next in case it makes a difference. (thanks for the guide for setting that up by the way, was mega helpful xD)

Again, please don't think I'm being an ass or contradicting you with my statements, I just want to be 1000% sure that I'm doing all this right. i just love this magical world so much that I also obsess greatly on it and want it all perfect.

Just want to make it clear that I appreciate everyone's thoughts and help here :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 05:31:10 pm by Lunatic_Reimu »

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2019, 09:00:29 pm »
1. Got it. I know it may sound silly, but just confirming to be sure, it doesn't make a difference that my desktop's resolution is set to 1360x768 right? (i.e. I don't need to set a 4:3 resolution for my desktop also right?)
Doesn't matter. If you're switching aspect ratios for the games and for everything else (desktop or whatever), it's fine.

4. After doing some more thinking and research I'm still not sure on the PC-98 being in 16:9. Let me explain my thoughts:
A.) As you said that doubling 8:5 brings it to 16:10, doubling 4:3 gives you 8:6. If you halve 8:5 it becomes 4:2.5 which is quite close to 4:3 too. (I'm not sure how these things work, don't think I'm trying to be a smart ass, just sharing my thoughts and wanting to learn more).
B.) Did some scrounging around on Youtube and literally all the vids I found for PC-98 are in 4:3 by top players like Jaimers, Zigzag Wolf, even HRtP by another 2 youtubers.
C.) There's some contradicting information on the forums, while you're suggesting 16:9, in the thread how to set up Neko Project II, user Shockdude is stating that the PC-98 games were meant to be played in 4:3 aspect ratio, here's the thread for your reference, it's the final 4 posts at the bottom of the thread: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11117.30.html
D.) The common resolutions wiki list I linked which is stating that resolution 640 x 400 has a Storage Aspect Ratio of 8:5 and should have a Display Aspect Ratio of 4:3.
I was actually chatting with a friend last night about exactly this. It's sorta unclear what the target aspect ratio should be. It seems people really into PC-98 stuff say it should be 4:3. I believe this argument stems from the fact that LCD panels were in their infancy and not that great, and CRTs were the thing you used and by a huge margin, way more popular. CRTs typically stretch the image to fill the screen, which is most commonly 4:3. However, the PC-98 laptops used an LCD screen, which meant that they kept the source ratio that the system was giving it, 640x400, and displayed it pixel perfect, leading it to be in 16:10 instead of 4:3. Right now, I'm torn between which is correct. 4:3 would definitely seem more authentic, but 16:10 is pixel perfect. The bullets in the games definitely look like they should be played in 16:10 to me. I'd have to dig further into this. Keep in mind that pixel aspect ratio is not always the right aspect ratio. For example, DOS games for IBM PC compatibles typically ran in a resolution of 320x200. Sound familiar? Multiply that by 2, you get 640x400, so 16:10 right? Wrong. Those games were meant to be played 4:3 as that's what CRTs did to them, and is what graphics designers often targeted. So that's why I'm torn right now. I should try playing them in 4:3 and see what they look like. This could also be preference on a user by user basis.

I use T98 Next in case it makes a difference. (thanks for the guide for setting that up by the way, was mega helpful xD)
No problem. That guide is so old though, and I've mentioned a couple times on here that I'm going to remake it since it's so cluttered, but I never get around to it. :V
I figured out how to play midi in games with a different device on Win7 ^^
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Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2019, 09:53:58 pm »
Doesn't matter. If you're switching aspect ratios for the games and for everything else (desktop or whatever), it's fine.

I was actually chatting with a friend last night about exactly this. It's sorta unclear what the target aspect ratio should be. It seems people really into PC-98 stuff say it should be 4:3. I believe this argument stems from the fact that LCD panels were in their infancy and not that great, and CRTs were the thing you used and by a huge margin, way more popular. CRTs typically stretch the image to fill the screen, which is most commonly 4:3. However, the PC-98 laptops used an LCD screen, which meant that they kept the source ratio that the system was giving it, 640x400, and displayed it pixel perfect, leading it to be in 16:10 instead of 4:3. Right now, I'm torn between which is correct. 4:3 would definitely seem more authentic, but 16:10 is pixel perfect. The bullets in the games definitely look like they should be played in 16:10 to me. I'd have to dig further into this. Keep in mind that pixel aspect ratio is not always the right aspect ratio. For example, DOS games for IBM PC compatibles typically ran in a resolution of 320x200. Sound familiar? Multiply that by 2, you get 640x400, so 16:10 right? Wrong. Those games were meant to be played 4:3 as that's what CRTs did to them, and is what graphics designers often targeted. So that's why I'm torn right now. I should try playing them in 4:3 and see what they look like. This could also be preference on a user by user basis.

No problem. That guide is so old though, and I've mentioned a couple times on here that I'm going to remake it since it's so cluttered, but I never get around to it. :V
Yeah switching to 4:3 for the games and back to 16:9 for the desktop. Thankfully there's a button on my remote which does this with two presses, so I don't have to stay navigating into my TV's Picture Options all the time to switch around xD

Hmm, that's interesting, you seem to have a lot of knowledge about the PC-98 hardware and the like, thanks for the info, interesting read :) I dunno but just a suggestion, how about comparing a bullet type that is common in both the PC-98 games and the Windows games and seeing which aspect ratio it fits closest too? i.e. taking a screenshot of the bullet in 16:9 and 4:3 and comparing it to the equivalent bullet in Touhou 6 in 4:3. A bullet type that's coming to mind is the circular green bullets in Touhou 4 Stage 2, compared to the circular red bullets in Touhou 6 Stage 3. They look like the same bullet sprite, just a different colour. Even the little white dot bullets would work I guess, like the ones at the beginning of Touhou 5 Stage 1 and Touhou 6 Stage 1 on Lunatic, but these are smaller so it might be more difficult to see differences between aspect ratios on them. What do you think?

Haha cracked me up with the :V smiley, I know what it's like putting stuff off lol, then months/years would have passed and it's still not done haha. The guide's good how it is dood, was easy to follow point by point, and got everything working first attempt and hassle-free :)

Agent of the BSoD

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2019, 11:02:16 pm »
Don't think I'd need to do a comparison between PC-98 and Windows. These screenshots speak for themselves. First is 16:10, second is 4:3.
Here's the teleport things in TH01.

   

Here's the green bullets from TH04 stage 2.



Lastly, a screenshot of TH03, which has a couple round things going on in it.



To my eyes, I'm concluding that 16:10 is the intended look. I can't justify 4:3 being correct. It looks so wrong.
I figured out how to play midi in games with a different device on Win7 ^^
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^ I didn't forget about this. I don't know what you're talking about. >_>

Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2019, 05:03:49 pm »
Don't think I'd need to do a comparison between PC-98 and Windows. These screenshots speak for themselves. First is 16:10, second is 4:3.
Here's the teleport things in TH01.

(Image removed from quote.)    (Image removed from quote.)

Here's the green bullets from TH04 stage 2.

(Image removed from quote.) (Image removed from quote.)

Lastly, a screenshot of TH03, which has a couple round things going on in it.

(Image removed from quote.) (Image removed from quote.)

To my eyes, I'm concluding that 16:10 is the intended look. I can't justify 4:3 being correct. It looks so wrong.
Thanks for taking the time to do these comparisons. I could clearly see the difference and how 16:10 is indeed more accurate from your images, with 4:3 looking far too squished. Strangely enough though, I'm getting different results.

TH03 in 4:3:


TH03 in 16:9:


I cropped Reimu's boss attack which is meant to be a circle, and rotated it 90 degrees, since it's a circle, it should be equal on both sides even when rotated, and this is what I got:


Notice how it looks more accurate in 4:3 for me? And 16:9 is far too stretched?

So I did some more comparisons, might be interesting for you to see:

TH04 in 4:3:


TH04 in 16:9:


Comparison between one of the bullets from the above TH04 screens:


And finally, I used the HRtP teleporters like you did, I got very different results than you did though:
HRtP in 4:3:


HRtP in 16:9:


And finally, the comparison between the teleporters, notice how mine line up nicely in 4:3 but are too stretched in 16:9:


I'm thinking of something, from your TH03 screens, is that how they show up for you, or you cropped the screenshot before uploading it? I'm asking cause I noticed you don't have any black bars at the bottom and the top, which are present in my screenshots. The INFO button on my TV's remote says resolution is 640x480 when I'm using T98-Next, so maybe these are the missing 80 pixels (40 from the top, 40 from the bottom), so my TV is already displaying the image in 640x400 due to these black borders?

On a sidenote, we talked about Touhou and PC98 games, what about the Seihou games? Those go in 4:3 as well correct?

Hope you found some of my findings interesting. Quite strange that we're getting such different results.

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2019, 05:18:35 pm »
That's because you've got borders added not only to the left and right sides of the screen, but also to the top and bottom, which is why 4:3 looks correct. It's still rendering in 16:10 but it's being letterboxed to fit in a 4:3 space. I personally use Neko Project 21 fmgen as I find that to be the most solid emulator of the lot (another reason to update that guide as it was written before NP was compatible with the PC-98 hardware, only working with PC-88). With NP21, under screen -> screen option -> fullscreen, I have the two checkboxes ticked and zoom set to adjust aspect. When I fullscreen the game, it fills it to my screen but maintains the 16:10 aspect ratio, giving me black bars on the left and right, and none at the top and bottom. It's an uneven scale, so if the uneven pixels bother you, you can always check screen -> stretch filter (only applies when being stretched). It will produce a blurring effect but the pixels will be even.

As for Seihou, I've only ever touched the first one, Shuusou Gyoku, and it's also 4:3. I'm assuming the others are the same way.
I figured out how to play midi in games with a different device on Win7 ^^
TF2 Backpack
Embodiment of Scarlet Hair English Patch is almost completed.
^ I didn't forget about this. I don't know what you're talking about. >_>

Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2019, 06:21:49 pm »
That's because you've got borders added not only to the left and right sides of the screen, but also to the top and bottom, which is why 4:3 looks correct. It's still rendering in 16:10 but it's being letterboxed to fit in a 4:3 space. I personally use Neko Project 21 fmgen as I find that to be the most solid emulator of the lot (another reason to update that guide as it was written before NP was compatible with the PC-98 hardware, only working with PC-88). With NP21, under screen -> screen option -> fullscreen, I have the two checkboxes ticked and zoom set to adjust aspect. When I fullscreen the game, it fills it to my screen but maintains the 16:10 aspect ratio, giving me black bars on the left and right, and none at the top and bottom. It's an uneven scale, so if the uneven pixels bother you, you can always check screen -> stretch filter (only applies when being stretched). It will produce a blurring effect but the pixels will be even.

As for Seihou, I've only ever touched the first one, Shuusou Gyoku, and it's also 4:3. I'm assuming the others are the same way.
Right, so in my case 4:3 should be the scale I should use for the PC98 games then if you're saying it looks correct due to the borders/letterboxing? Unfortunately I didn't have much success with Neko Project :( Stuttering, and slowing down at points. T98 gives me much better performance so I stuck with that one.

Yeah Seihou looked more even in 4:3 when I was testing it out too, so I agree with you.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 06:24:39 pm by Lunatic_Reimu »
Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2019, 01:48:20 pm »
It's not cheating at all, it just doesn't make sense. If anything, it's a handicap. It really would be worth the effort to "get used" to 4:3 instead.

Keep in mind that pixel aspect ratio is not always the right aspect ratio. For example, DOS games for IBM PC compatibles typically ran in a resolution of 320x200. Sound familiar? Multiply that by 2, you get 640x400, so 16:10 right? Wrong. Those games were meant to be played 4:3 as that's what CRTs did to them, and is what graphics designers often targeted.
This isn't strictly true, and it highly depends on the game. This is also something that's brought up for numerous older platforms that did something similar.

For some reason, most older platforms simply didn't use a 4:3 resolution. In the vast majority of each platform's catalog, games were being made for the actual internal resolution, not what you get on a typical TV. I don't know why so many developers decided to be ignorant of what was supposed to be a standard, but they were, repeatedly. Typically you can easily tell by looking at circular objects or object trajectories (e.g. bullets) in a given game; look at basically any NES game, for example.

Likewise, the PC-98 Touhou games are pixelled and programmed for the 640x400 resolution, not anything else. It is a complete mystery as to why. I get the feeling most PC-98 games are like this, but I haven't sat down to look at this. I'm pretty sure Kotsujin is, though.

Lunatic_Reimu

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Re: Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2019, 12:32:54 pm »
It's not cheating at all, it just doesn't make sense. If anything, it's a handicap. It really would be worth the effort to "get used" to 4:3 instead.

This isn't strictly true, and it highly depends on the game. This is also something that's brought up for numerous older platforms that did something similar.

For some reason, most older platforms simply didn't use a 4:3 resolution. In the vast majority of each platform's catalog, games were being made for the actual internal resolution, not what you get on a typical TV. I don't know why so many developers decided to be ignorant of what was supposed to be a standard, but they were, repeatedly. Typically you can easily tell by looking at circular objects or object trajectories (e.g. bullets) in a given game; look at basically any NES game, for example.

Likewise, the PC-98 Touhou games are pixelled and programmed for the 640x400 resolution, not anything else. It is a complete mystery as to why. I get the feeling most PC-98 games are like this, but I haven't sat down to look at this. I'm pretty sure Kotsujin is, though.
Hello, thanks for taking the time to reply and pitch in also :) I was actually seeing it as advantageous rather than a handicap which is why I started doubting. Seeing wider gaps was giving me a quicker time to react to them, especially in fast moving random cards which I can't memorize like Sakuya's Eternal Meek for example. Anyway, I happily made the jump from 16:9 to 4:3 after these posts with Agent of the BSoD, and really got used to it now. If anything, now I really am seeing 16:9 as stretched and ugly, and wouldn't want to go back to it :)

Regarding the PC98 games, I use T98 Next as my emulator, and it's definitely better and everything looks more even in 4:3 than in 16:9 as you could also see in the posts above where I attached some comparison pics. I think this is due to it being letter boxed since the proper aspect ratio is 8:5 as stated by Agent? I actually took screenshots of round stuff, and put them in Picture Manager, and when I cropped around the circle, the horizontal pixels match the vertical ones (i.e. 89 x 89 pixels as an example), so it seems like it's correct.
 

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