Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F  (Read 6999 times)

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General_Milky

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #300 on: August 12, 2018, 02:16:35 am »
Thread's moved way past this but I still feel inclined to chime in; IMO the game "ends" at the plus disk final boss at floor 26. Everything beyond is for-funsie bonus content for super players, there is absolutely NO shame in just stopping the game right then and there, or if you really care about the hanging subplot, then the bonus boss on b10 is all one needs to do to call it done.

That said, if you're going 100%, the game's over after the 640 IC boss and True Dragon God are down, as the only thing left past those are (hilariously broken) rehashes with bigger numbers that aren't sane to pursue.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #301 on: August 12, 2018, 03:07:48 am »
That said, if you're going 100%, the game's over after the 640 IC boss and True Dragon God are down, as the only thing left past those are (hilariously broken) rehashes with bigger numbers that aren't sane to pursue.
Absolutely; there's no more original content, just higher levels of the exact same thing, the game is done. Still, I'm going to complain if the game makes it actively a PITA to even attempt to play the scaling content.  :V
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IRUN

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #302 on: August 12, 2018, 03:27:43 am »
Update: Renko and Maribel are carrying this run. Rinnosuke has been helpful with his heal, and Akyuu... will probably get better once subclasses open up. Oh, and remember the time when you had to actually wander around FOEs? https://imgur.com/mgAcido I have a feeling this is going to happen a lot.
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Rinnie

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #303 on: August 12, 2018, 08:54:23 am »
That said, if you're going 100%, the game's over after the 640 IC boss and True Dragon God are down, as the only thing left past those are (hilariously broken) rehashes with bigger numbers that aren't sane to pursue.
Well, I kind of wished that older games had such post-game modes as are now available in Diablo 3, Disgaea series and some other games. Sometimes you don't want for game to end, especially if it is a very good game. I wish more games had additional post-postgame content like this.
Absolutely; there's no more original content, just higher levels of the exact same thing, the game is done. Still, I'm going to complain if the game makes it actively a PITA to even attempt to play the scaling content.  :V
IC levels are actually quite small, so you can peek slightly at NE, NW, SW, SE and see the vortex to next level. I think you are simply burned out with IC after going through 600 floors so fast :)

DarkAtma

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #304 on: August 12, 2018, 01:16:58 pm »
Why does kaguya and patchy feel so weak compared to their LoT1 counterparts? expected total defense piercing magic to be really good in LoT2

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #305 on: August 12, 2018, 01:41:54 pm »
IC levels are actually quite small, so you can peek slightly at NE, NW, SW, SE and see the vortex to next level. I think you are simply burned out with IC after going through 600 floors so fast :)
Do you mean after 640f they actually -are- smaller? Because all the floors I've been exploring, that is -not- the case :V I'd check but... that boss is hard.

I got to lv2500 and the bosses are still wayyyyy too tough, so, guess I better grind more. I could maybe beat the IC one if I was lucky, but... ouch.
Why does kaguya and patchy feel so weak compared to their LoT1 counterparts? expected total defense piercing magic to be really good in LoT2
Patchouli's only damage boost passive is SDM team and Grand Incantation, which is... not great. Incantation is strong, but hard to use with her fragility and speed, and gets outclassed by Akyuu's party-wide boost later anyway. Silent Selene's mind factor is average now, not even half-pierce or anything. She seems to be designed to wipe tons of randoms without running out of mp, even in awakening, but she's the slowest character in the game and it takes serious TP boosting too...

Kaguya also has no damage boosts except her team bonus (until awakening, which only averages at ~17% damage up... unfortunate). Hourai Bullet is stronger than Silent Selene, but Patchy has more Magic. Kaguya's only specialty is piercing defense. It's incredibly valuable in base game, which starts to drown in high-defense enemies later in, but in postgame she's only relevant against the monolith fights, for which you have stronger, more durable, and faster options. With her poor hp, meh damage, void weakness, and glacial delays, she's not that good. Better to use other defense-piercing characters with more general usefulness. Viable, if you run the other eientei members, but not good.

But hey, at least she significantly outdamages Shikieki at Spirit, whilst also covering two other elements! :V (4~5 other elements if you sub Archmage, which is probably a good idea) Shiki's global damage reduction from backrow is something, though. Err, depending on what "elemental" damage means. Everything but void? Or just FIR/WTR/WND/NTR?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 01:54:58 pm by Serela »
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ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #306 on: August 12, 2018, 01:56:36 pm »
How to build Hina for maingame? Never used her my first playthrough but trying to make use of different people this time. Not sure what to do with Hina, or honestly how to utilise Kogasa either past early game since I think I might bring her along as a fairly permanent member this time too.

Rinnie

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #307 on: August 12, 2018, 02:04:54 pm »
Do you mean after 640f they actually -are- smaller? Because all the floors I've been exploring, that is -not- the case :V I'd check but... that boss is hard.
No, they are same in size, I mean that floors themselves are small in general, they are basically the size of 4 screens (quadrants).

And yeah, 640F boss looks unapproachable. But after all, he is one of the final post-game bosses.

Just imagine this boss on 2nd cycle :)

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #308 on: August 12, 2018, 02:14:45 pm »
Yeah, and you often spawn deep in the corner or up against one of the walls, without knowing until you notice the paths all end at that line. It's not all that uncommon for me to have to explore almost the entire floor to find the exit. Your statement seems to assume you'll spawn dead center each time?

How to build Hina for maingame? Never used her my first playthrough but trying to make use of different people this time. Not sure what to do with Hina, or honestly how to utilise Kogasa either past early game since I think I might bring her along as a fairly permanent member this time too.
If you're okay with forsaking party-wide DEF/MND buffs while she's out, you can build her as a tank with her debuff reversal, and self-debuff skill (and probably her party debuff protection) and make her a tank that uses Biorhythm to apply massive accurate debuffs to the enemy team while regenerating with Hexer's Conversion. Or if you want to keep your buffs, just forgo her self-debuff passive and use her purely for biorhythm- she'll be less tanky, but it works, and you can subclass something else for more support.

She can work offensively, too, it's just more gimmicky to try and set up Pain Flows.

Kogasa's pretty simple. She has near-infinite MP, just slam her attacks out. It's best if you have allies who can try to inflict terror alongside her, like Kasen and/or Parsee. Parsee also boosts DRK for Kogasa's best attack! Once you get subclasses, Warrior is excellent to enhance Raindrops while giving access to two more elements and great passive skills... when you can afford it, at least :V Her priorities are Troubled Forgotten Item, then Ability to Surprise Humans/Sheer Force/Atk Boost in some order.


Speaking of Terror, I think Parsee's post-game proof when it comes to statuses. Even Grudge Returning has 14000 boosted to 21000 TRR, enough to absolutely survive to her next turn for her TRR nuke, and her other move inflicts 75k trr and 60k sil with her awakening. Like, goddamn. Those will last awhile even at the end.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 02:23:04 pm by Serela »
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ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #309 on: August 12, 2018, 02:33:28 pm »
Ah thank you so much :)

Yeah I'm thinking of bringing Parsee through too, as I dropped her pretty early on my first playthrough and tried to bring her back for one shot shennanigans on Murakumo but other than that she went pretty much entirely unused.

I guess really, it's probably easier to list all the characters I used and just openly think about ones I want to try out this time and have it open to feedback from y'all.

Main characters used last time that I want to try and stray from: Nitori abuse, Kanako, Sakuya (though I guess she sucks now with the extra attack changes anyway), Kasen, TankMeiling (might try her as bulky attacker?? dunno yet). I had a bunch more people that were often cycled in and out but those were the main ones aside from Reimu (who I'm not planning on avoiding using) who stuck in my team through most of the game and into lategame/postgame.

So in terms of this new playthrough, yeah I'm feeling Kogasa and trying to use Hina as well as using a tank that isn't Meiling or Komachi (Maybe Momiji?). I'm worried about certain fights not being so readily doable without OP people in those situations like Nitori and Kasen (who does so fantastically on all the DRK weak bosses tbh). I think I might want to try and take Orin along too since she didn't get much use the first time round. Also might try Keine as a longer term buffer with someone else as backup later if necessary like Sanae. Not really sure who else I want to try, guess I'll take people as they come, but if anyone has any suggestions on characters that work well together that aren't from my not using again list then feel free to throw it at me.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #310 on: August 12, 2018, 03:11:41 pm »
Momiji works for awhile. Mokou is also an excellent choice with regen/fighting spirit/resurrection and very high mp recovery for subclass support. Eventually, Yukari/Byakuren/Rinnosuke are really good tanks. Keine also stays good long-term now that she gets History Accumulation to help rise her def/mnd, and doesn't get blasted out of competition by the now-nerfed Byakuren. Kasen and Nitori are really good, sure, but I wouldn't worry about not being able to win without them.

Make sure to take along def/mnd piercing somewhere since the base game has a lot of problems with megatanky bosses. You can feel free to phase some out as you enter plus disk content later.

As for Reimu, I eventually phased her out as I had enough buffing power, and used Rumia and Eirin for healing needs. Still, Reimu is a very solid character.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 03:13:24 pm by Serela »
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Rinnie

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #311 on: August 12, 2018, 03:56:58 pm »
Yeah, and you often spawn deep in the corner or up against one of the walls, without knowing until you notice the paths all end at that line. It's not all that uncommon for me to have to explore almost the entire floor to find the exit. Your statement seems to assume you'll spawn dead center each time?
It comes to intuition after going through hundreds of floors. I also was burned out with IC because I wanted to finally remove that boulder from 30F and so did all those 600 floors in a couple of days.

There is a tip, which helped me, probably will be helpful to you. When you spawn in the darkness, if there are no signs ("!", "!!", etc.) in one of directions, 90% likely there is a wall. If signs are all around you, you are somewhere in middle. I also rushed the yellow sign if it was close enough to have better idea about surroundings.

Sometimes I had bad luck and was on a floor with very narrow passages going all the way around the vortex (which brings you to next floor). Bad RNG happens. Good RNG happens too - I had numerous occasions when vortex was right near where I spawn. But no floor took me more than a couple of minutes to go through.

LonelyGaruga

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #312 on: August 12, 2018, 04:17:13 pm »
Mind, a floor every couple minutes is still a good 3 hours for 100 floors.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #313 on: August 12, 2018, 04:27:13 pm »
Yeahhh. Corridor is only realistic for endless postgame plumbing if you can clear the floors -really- fast. I don't want to loop if it's gonna take 20 hours to do one loop, and 5 loops to beat the strengthened TLB; that's 100 freaking hours of just diving corridor, not even including the level grind! (In other words, -way- more than 100 hours)

100 hours is about what my save file was at when I hit 30F.

Endless corridor diving -does- sound kinda fun. But only if the floors are small and fast. There's still hope 3peso might tweak it to be that way, though.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 04:32:20 pm by Serela »
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LonelyGaruga

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #314 on: August 12, 2018, 05:43:38 pm »
30f Murakumo done with no character losses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpN_N6lelY

I was a bit lucky, everything that could've been hazardous missed or wasn't used. Still, the strategy is considerably more optimized compared to the failed attempt I shared earlier, and that's the real reason this run was successful after a good two dozen or so failed attempts.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #315 on: August 12, 2018, 05:53:53 pm »
Oooh, wonderful! I look forward to the no-death series continuing. Wow, 26 minutes... @.@;; I'll watch through whilst having lunch.

edit:It also occurs to me I may have struggled a bit because I have literally 5 billion gold sitting in my wallet
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 06:00:58 pm by Serela »
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Validon98

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #316 on: August 12, 2018, 06:11:55 pm »
Given some prior speaking about it, it might be high time enough to go back to the idea I had a long time ago of Team Terror, which is similar to that one Calamity Four. Kogasa, Parsee, Kasen, and Reisen, for lots of terror and debuffing. They're all the way back at 4F but they'll probably work through the main game fast enough if I actually try playing it, and not leaving it off for other things. :'D
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LonelyGaruga

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #317 on: August 12, 2018, 06:17:22 pm »
Oooh, wonderful! I look forward to the no-death series continuing. Wow, 26 minutes... @.@;; I'll watch through whilst having lunch.

Yeaaah, might wanna set it to 2x speed or something. My videos prior to the 1.104 update were done with a computer that couldn't run the game at 60 FPS while recording, and the only one that comes close to length is Guardian of the Crystals, which would probably be ~20 minutes if it was running at 60 FPS and could be considerably more optimized if I did it again. Probably safe to say that it's the longest fight in the game so far.
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #318 on: August 12, 2018, 06:36:11 pm »
I found you can easily tell where you are on a corridor floor if you open the map without moving it. All the floors are the same size and the map doesn't center on you automatically so the borders of the floors are always in the same spot on your screen. This way, you can tell if you are near a wall or corner and head the other direction. For awhile, I left my mouse cursor on one corner of the floor to help with this.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #319 on: August 12, 2018, 09:59:07 pm »
It also occurs to me I may have struggled a bit because I have literally 5 billion gold sitting in my wallet
Yeahhh I just increased everyone's library level by literally at least two thirds, and I still have over a billion gold left. I probably could have beaten those fights at-level  :getdown: Ah well. I beat 640F before doing the library pump, now I guess it's TLB time.

edit: Okay. TLB. The first phase's pattern is Breath->Red Form for awhile->Breath->Blue Form for awhile. Red is weak to NTR, Blue is weak to DRK, there are no turns in neutral form. They work the same as 28F dragon god. It has a LOT of HP, so you need to be able to tank out red form's 2-hit combo without constantly losing party members; this means you need 2/3 out of EXTREME damage reduction, Akyuu invincibility, and Eirin's overheal. Mokou can also resurrect through the whole thing if you can burst it down well enough.

Not sure how you actually get someone tanky enough to live through the two-hit combo, even Renko can't freaking do it (with overtweaking and a First Aid Kid instead of Tokugawa, MAYBE.) . Keep in mind affinity apparently maxes at 500. So, it's either Mokou, or Akyuu+Eirin. Or, I kid you not, First Aid Kit Patchouli with concentrate philosopher's stone to resist Physical. MAYBE.

Once you kill that, it spawns RED AND BLUE AT THE SAME TIME AS TWO FORMS. The red form on left has no status resists, so lock it down permanently. Rumia or Wand of Destruction is best at this, but big PAR in general should do the job, or maybe SHK. The right side has no debuff resists, so crush it's atk/mag/spd immediately. Weaknesses are the same, but this phase doesn't have a ton of HP. You can Spark it down if you need to, for example. Akyuu-boosted Murakumo Spark should do like 2/3rds of both their HP.

Final phase, I died, HAHAHAHAHA. It's really resistant to DRK/SPI/MYS and immune to status, but it's weak to the 4 main elements and all debuffs, so just crush it's stats I guess. It seems to repeatedly charge up and blast with mys/spi/drk breath. It seems the more it charges, the more breaths it casts... you definitely want some debuffs @.@ Sorry Patch, but since this is a 3-elemental attack I don't think you can resist it!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:54:39 pm by Serela »
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LonelyGaruga

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #320 on: August 12, 2018, 10:53:54 pm »
Someone uploaded a video of 30f Ryujin-sama yesterday, the final phase uses Yamata no Orochi's Soul Incinerating Hellfire, the MYS/SPI/DRK MT attack. The player was in the 3800s in Lv so I didn't really get a good idea of what else it did and the overall difficulty of the fight. It didn't look too bad, outside of the spoiler details.

More or less, it's going to depend on if the True phase does anything besides spam Soul Incinerating Hellfire. I don't feel comfortable in the odds of defeating it before it uses it once...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:56:15 pm by LonelyGaruga »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #321 on: August 12, 2018, 10:57:57 pm »
3800 :V Well it definitely wouldn't be bad at a crazy level like that. I think you can complete it roughly on-level by adhering to the gimmicks (granted, it requires certain characters) but the real problem comes down to being able to blast down the last phase quickly enough. It has the same HP as the first phase, just more weaknesses, for an idea of durability; you are not going to defeat it before it uses it's combo multiple times.

A single cast is not a problem. Multiple casts, though, errr....
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

LonelyGaruga

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #322 on: August 12, 2018, 11:14:54 pm »
Looking at the stats Rinnie posted, I think I could take out the True phase in 6 hits with Tenshi, at least under the best possible circumstances. That's going to be scary. Akyuu makes things a lot easier, at least. 1-hit invincibility is as much of a cheat as Eirin's overheal.

Somewhat unrelated, I do appreciate how, while Yamata no Orochi didn't get a new enhanced fight like Murakumo, Ryujin-sama still inherits its ultimate attack, and even has opposite weaknesses, with Yamata no Orochi's final phase being weak to MYS/SPI/DRK, while True Ryujin-sama resists those and is instead weak to the natural elements. Pretty neat.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #323 on: August 12, 2018, 11:23:07 pm »
I tried again, and now I don't know how I got past the blue phases the last time. I just got destroyed before I could try to debuff or set anything going @.@ Oomph. What a trip.
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Libra

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #324 on: August 13, 2018, 01:58:03 am »
Full Power Dragon God down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VhtFaDrKfw& , game complete, I guess?

LonelyGaruga

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #325 on: August 13, 2018, 04:07:35 am »
Ryujin-sama's 1st phase red phase does look painful, geez. Tenshi has the -30% PHY damage skill, so between her and Akyuu I'm not worried about that too much, but that looks to be one of the most unfair attacks in the game.

jester147

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #326 on: August 13, 2018, 06:45:11 am »
Hello

After long not touching the game again, finally able to completely clear the base. Time to try the Plus Disk.

Is the current English Patch have all scripts translated or is it just good old interface translation?

Rinnie

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #327 on: August 13, 2018, 09:47:26 am »
Full Power Dragon God down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VhtFaDrKfw& , game complete, I guess?
It isn't Enhanced :)

Imo, game is completed only when last non-scaling boss is defeated, in this case Enhanced True Dragon God :)
Hello

After long not touching the game again, finally able to completely clear the base. Time to try the Plus Disk.

Is the current English Patch have all scripts translated or is it just good old interface translation?
Most of scripts except for 2 last floors are currently translated.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 11:44:35 am by Rinnie »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #328 on: August 13, 2018, 02:18:03 pm »
Imo, game is completed only when last non-scaling boss is defeated, in this case Enhanced True Dragon God :) Most of scripts except for 2 last floors are currently translated.
Considering you'd have to plumb corridor for well over 100 hours, and it'd be the exact same fight with higher numbers, with no new gear or floors or events or dialogue, I think it's safe to say... game is already done  :V

If 3peso makes it faster I might consider doing it.

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elminster1372

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #329 on: August 13, 2018, 06:49:08 pm »
Kind of off topic but... while waiting for a patch to fix TL2's overflow issues, I decided to give a new try to TL1 - no full team, no carried skill points or gear, just a clean new game. And, well...

The random encounters are sort of annoying, I'll admit. The SP consumption in the first few levels is insane, leaving you empty after only a few fights. So yeah, I definitely miss the SP system in TL2^^

But the boss fights... damn, they are incredibly good. Meiling and Cirno were admittedly kind of easy, but Chen was quite fun and close, and Youmu... it actually felt like a real boss fight. You know, the sort where you can't just throw your first line at the boss but where you have to constantly play around the enemy attacks and use your entire team to its fullest. I'll admit, I sorely miss this sort of fights in TL2.

And btw, here is a record of my Youmu fight - I dunno if I played it as well as I could, but I certainly had much more fun than with most TL2 bosses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zv9zGvmdZc
 

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