Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F  (Read 18231 times)

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Kirin no Sora

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Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« on: July 20, 2018, 11:44:41 am »
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Translation Thread

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Now then, onwards!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 11:46:29 am by Kirin no Sora »
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Rinnie

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 03:49:48 pm »
Stupid question, but I'm playing this for the first time and loving it and just wanted to check to see if my understanding on how much content the plus disk added is correct. The wiki shows it adds 20 floors in total, is this correct?
Indeed, this is correct :) Each floor being gradually more difficult than previous floor in both - layout and monsters.

Plus Disk also adds randomly generated Infinite Corridor, which is currently limited to 250 floors. But those floors were made mostly with aim to go through them as fast as possible (to get as big bonuses as possible), so they aren't large and have their own specific rules and mechanics.

General_Milky

  • Nickname: Milky
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 08:24:15 pm »
Well, it's not really that clear cut. A lot of the Plus Disk floors just kinda breeze by and don't really add much. Most notably, floor 22 is about as small and simple as a floor from the early game, and some of the early basement floors and b7 are also a noticeable step back from the later stratums of main game. Some of the plus disk floors are MASSIVE and brutal, but definitely not all of them. A good few of them don't even have a boss.

Otaku

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 09:45:27 pm »
We've gotten quite far with these threads, haven't we?

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 10:41:41 pm »
Labyrinth 1 went through three releases, and Labyrinth 2's nearing it's 5 year anniversary and is STILL being developed. That's some hella longevity @.@
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 10:45:42 pm »
That's really incredible. About how long would it take to go through all of the content? I'm currently about 20 hours in on floor 10.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 11:52:18 pm »
20~30 more hours should finish basegame for you (depending, especially on whether or not you include the non-plus-disk postgame in that time) and then you can plausibly reach the current end of Plus Disk in under 100 total hours of game time on your save file. It does depend on how efficiently your team can clear random battles, which can save/cost a lot of time, and if you do stuff like grind foes/materials/infinite corridor.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2018, 02:31:02 am »
Fuck me this game has a lot of shit in it. Things have definitely slowed down for me recently in terms of floor progress per hour, especially as I get more characters and want to try different party setups and maximize my power. The first few floors took a pretty short and breezy amount of time, but now that I have something like 30 completely mechanically unique characters, that all synergize both with each other and the all of the different subclasses, I've ended up spending a lot more time in Gensokyo fiddling with equipment, skill points, and level up bonuses. And so many of the bosses actually require this level of fiddling too, I went through something like 5 different party compositions fighting Ran. I especially love how all of the bosses have their own unique feel, like Tenshi being this impossible to damage stone wall, with most of the challenge coming from figuring out how to actually damage her without hitting the insta kill buff cap. Then you have Ran, which is this insane damage race where you have to create a party and strategy that can both withstand her high damage attacks and mana wipes, while also making sure to have a way to lock down or kill her shikigamis before they have a chance to buff her power level into oblivion.

The level of creativity in this game in general just amazes me, and the love the developers obviously had for the source material and every single little thing they reference really shines through and just makes the game a joy to play. It manages to place a unique twist on long term dungeon crawling resource management with TP and balancing your MP usage with concentrating, and it's board gamey isometric viewpoint gives the game its own flavor, distinct from the Wizardry and Etrian Odyssey games that it was inspired by.

The 12 person party makes it so you always feel like you have something to tweak or alter or improve on in your party, and all of the characters manage to be so distinct and flavorful. They all have their own special niche to fill, even within groupings like Tank or Support or DPS. Sanae and Reimu are both bulky jack of all trades with a focus on support, but they manage to play completely differently within that space, which matches their parallel roles as shrine maidens. I fucking love that! Reimu has her focus on composite damage and weak but party wide buffs and heals, while Sanae has elemental diversity and much more powerful but single target buffs and heals. Reimu can deal Mondo damage with Grand Incantation, while Sanae has the more flexible but weaker damage dealing option of raising her skills to level 9. All of these small differences add up to create two characters that function completely differently within their given niche. And these are the two characters that are probably the most similar throughout the entire cast that I've recruited yet! Chen, Parsee, and Youmu are all physical damage dealers that approach the task from wildly different angles. Chen pops in for a round to deal small amounts of damage and then immediately leaves in order to stay safe. Or she could be played very riskily, giving herself a huge self buff to attack at the expense of her defenses, relying solely on her ability do dodge to stay alive. Parsee is a bulky but deals less damage than other characters, unless she or someone else can inflict terror, in which case she skyrockets to possibly dealing the highest damage on the team. Youmu is this awesome high risk, high reward character that requires careful attention to be paid to her, with her high Mana costs and stat buff from being low on health. All of these characters are creative enough to be the Quina, Gogo, or Mog style gimmick party member in any other game, whereas in Labyrinth of Touhou they are simply par for the course. There are so many interesting and exciting ideas in this game, it's impossible to cover them all. I haven't mentioned Marissa, who is fragile, difficult to keep on the front lines, and relies on being able to switch with another character after she blows her Master Spark, but also gains a huge self buff every turn if enough party members are dead, encouraging you to play risky with her, and keep her in the front lines for extended periods of time. Or how Reimu, who's main asset is her versatility, gains a huge increase in damage or healing from spending her turns concentrating, forcing you to make difficult choices on what to spend her already limited turns on. Every character obviously had so much thought and care put into their design.

Although I haven't played far enough to determine if the game is balanced at all at endgame, so far every character has managed to fulfill their niche successfully. (Although some niches are more specific than others. Sorry I never use you, Cirno!) The games overall balance has really impressed me so far, especially when I compare it to other games that attempt to differentiate their characters to an extent that even approaches how far this game goes. Disgaea runs into the problem of its characters feeling too samey, and while balanced, the main thing that differentiates them is how much damage they can do, and from how far away. Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy Tactics run into a similar issue, while also having much greater imbalances between classes. A Geomancer in FF5 will always be inferior to a Knight with Black Magic in terms of combat capability, and while their use of avoiding damage tiles and other environmental hazards might have been useful in a different game, is irrelevant given the simplicity of FF5s dungeons.

I could go on and on about how fucking good this game is. After playing so many RPGs that play it so safe with encounter and character design this game is a breath of fresh air. It's cute, it's creative, it takes risks, it respects the player and their time. It has brilliant boss and class design, every boss trying something new, and every character having their own idiosyncrasies and quirks, contradictions within their core design that challenge you to think hard and determine the most optimal way they can be played. It has intelligent and thoughtful dungeon design, encouraging the player to explore every floor fully and remember important landmarks and characters. This post has really gotten away from me, but I am just so consistently amazed by this game. This is the first Touhou fangame I've ever played, and it has set an incredibly high bar for any I play in the future. If you actually made it to the end of this random ass post from somebody who has literally never posted in this forum before today, I'm super thankful to you for actually reading this horrible pile of bullshit that has spewed out from my mouth.

Also, if any of the people who worked on the fan translation are in this thread, mad props to them. Managing to coherently translate such a text heavy game that is so reliant on item and skill descriptions, both for its charm and for mechanical purposes is very impressive. The dialogue is natural sounding, and every character has a pretty distinct voice too. I'm really impressed, and super thankful for giving me the chance to play this game.

iuribg

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2018, 06:06:40 pm »
I wonder if Tasofro would make any character changes aside from bug fixes in the last patch. I still fell like Youmu could be a lot better. In the official games, she have the ability to destroy danmaku with her sword or even reflect it. This ability couuld be somehow present in Labyrinth too. Maybe she could reflect a certain amount of magic damage scaling with her own atack damage. This hability would proc every time she concentrates, keeping her actual play style but giving her a bit more of survivability and damage, especialy against magic atacker foes. That would make her very good in my opinion.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2018, 04:32:02 am »
Tasofro :VV They do make a lot of neat fangames but this is 3peso.

Youmu is extremely underwhelming until endgame, it's true. At least she's very good in endgame due to her stellar awakening and lv9 moves, but... that's a very small portion of the game, especially considering she's recruited on FLOOR ONE. Slash of Eternity could really use a buff (why doesn't it have a formula like other slow expensive single target nukes??) and in general she could probably use a little more base ATK, which would balance out in endgame where everyone's getting +7 to their base attack/mag (so her awakening wouldn't be obscene). If SoE was a more worthy nuke and she had 1~2 more base attack then she'd... at least be able to hold her own, and using her gimmick passives would actually have a payoff before her awakening is obtained.

Swordmaster's Spirit added in Plus doesn't necessarily help much, because she needs maxed HP for it to activate and it only makes concentrating between every other attack viable, not actually -good-. Yet it would also be difficult to tweak it without destroying her awesome awakening build. Meanwhile I don't think more extreme suggestions like damage reduced by Attack stat could make it in at this point.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 04:34:55 am by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

iuribg

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2018, 11:04:39 pm »
I messed up the developers, indeed is 3peso :p
So sad about Youmu, i really like the character, but it is so hard to fit her in the party.  Wished to see more game on Alice too, but she is far for the sad state that youmu is right now. Seems like i will keep 3d scoping.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2018, 12:50:41 am »
Alice is pretty good as long as you're willing to use Marisa. Hourai Doll gets a big boost from Row Atk Enhancement on Sorc, and she's got good variety in her attack set, regen+evasion, defense piercing, etc. Not one of the incredible-tier characters but pretty solid.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2018, 03:51:56 am »
is reimu as a monk with the concentration buff as good as i think she is

ive been using her as one of my main damage dealers ever since i unlocked her and she has done her role exceedingly well. I got past the remilia and sakuya fight pretty easily just because she was able to kill remilia from above half health with a charged fantasy seal. Plus she can heal and support like a motherfucker still too, and the constant concentrating means she almost never runs out of mana.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2018, 05:16:33 am »
Concentration Reimu is pretty OK. The main plus is that a lot of stuff is weak to spirit, where she comes in majorly handy- I had just been enjoying secondhand Fantasy Seal off Satori for that fight. And she's not even dead weight on spirit-resistant enemies since you just swap to defensive levelups and use her support. The build actually gets even better in Plus Disk with the base stat increases, her damage-friendly awakening, and the way endgame scaling works.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2018, 05:30:44 pm »
is there any sort of general consensus on which characters are the best/worst? i've been trying to use just about everyone, but It'd be nice to have some fallback, overpowered characters in case I get stuck on a boss (or at least, which ones to avoid using)

also the second battle theme is fucking sick, is there a new one for the plus disk floors?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 05:42:37 pm by charliebobson »

Arcvasti

  • Nickname: Unmoving Puppet
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2018, 08:15:39 pm »
Nitori is really really overpowered. Maintenance is incredibly, ludicrously broken and her other skills and spellcards are generally excellent. Hina trivializes almost any boss without complete debuff immunity and is still pretty good against debuff resistant bosses. Iku is a really good support who fills a whole bunch of roles at once while also being able to output decent damage if built that way.

Kaguya isn't as overpowered as the above three, but she's very valuable against bosses with super high defenses, which are annoyingly common before Plus Disc. Reisen can inflict all debuffs and every aliment but HVY, which can be very helpful indeed. She also has pretty good defense piercing between her huge MND debuffs and ignoring half of enemy defenses anyways.

As for the worst characters, the only ones that really come to mind are Youmu, Nazrin and Utsuho[If you don't have Plus Disc]. Youmu just doesn't have good enough damage or durability for her MP gimmick to be worth it. Pre Plus Disc Utsuho's spellcard formulas are just awful, even though she has decent stats and skills. Nazrin is also fairly bad, with one situational offensive skill and mediocre stats. Every other character is at least usable, although they might not be usable against every boss or with every team composition. For example, Alice has decent damage if she can inflict HVY and you have Marisa in the back, but bad damage otherwise.

Rinnie

  • Nickname: Rinnosuke
  • Gender: Male
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2018, 08:20:22 pm »
also the second battle theme is fucking sick, is there a new one for the plus disk floors?
Second? Yes, there are more in plus disk floors, and there will be more before plus disk floors ;)

LonelyGaruga

  • Nickname: Black Wolf
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2018, 08:50:37 pm »
also the second battle theme is fucking sick, is there a new one for the plus disk floors?

For battle themes, there's a total of 3 new random encounter themes in Plus Disk. The second theme for the main game is the best one out of all of them imo though.

Second?

There's a new battle theme for random encounters starting with 13f, that's the one being referred to.

Rinnie

  • Nickname: Rinnosuke
  • Gender: Male
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2018, 08:44:53 pm »
There's a new battle theme for random encounters starting with 13f, that's the one being referred to.
Yeah I understood that :) I wanted to point that there is at least one more battle theme in prePlus-Disk content. I also liked a special very magnificent battle theme for super bosses :) But probably boss themes don't count.

220639

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2018, 08:13:00 pm »
Does anyone know where to get the Judas Pain? (3rd main equipment from 3rd page)
It's the only main equipment I just can't seem to find...

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2018, 12:50:56 am »
oh shit theres a third normal battle theme? what floor does it start playing on?

LonelyGaruga

  • Nickname: Black Wolf
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2018, 01:16:46 am »
New battle themes play for 21f and beyond, basement floors, and the special Corridor dungeon.

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2018, 04:54:38 pm »
so whats the general consensus on labyrinth of touhou 1? is it better or worse than 2, is it still worth playing after 2?

Arcvasti

  • Nickname: Unmoving Puppet
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2018, 05:29:03 pm »
LoT2 is generally an improvement in basically every way. The only real edge LoT1 has is that it's probably harder, since you just don't have as many options. LoT1 also has some really obnoxious level gimmicks/puzzles going. LoT1 is still good, just disappointing compared to LoT2.

zeroxtime62

  • Nickname: zerox
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2018, 06:05:46 pm »
I played LoT after playing LoT2 and I enjoyed it significantly more though I still like both games a lot. I'll just briefly mention some things that made me like it more.

I found the characters felt much more balanced relative to each other in the first game. One gripe I had with LoT2 is that I'd often feel like I was putting myself at a disadvantage if I wasn't using a character who could accomplish the same role as another but had more options alongside said role. I also much prefer characters having Non-Elemental attacks as opposed to Physical because it felt like I could use who I wanted in any almost situation and their damage wouldn't be hampered as a result of what the enemy affinities were.

LoT2 had some enemy balancing issues in my opinion. A lot of the postgame bosses are far too bulky which can often result in characters being unable to do much besides small scratch damage. I think the Plus Disk encounters are also a bit too annoying. They're often really fast and have a lot of HP which makes taking them down before they get a turn can be quite awkward if you aren't running a dedicated frontline to specifically deal with them. LoT Plus Disk also had its share of annoying random encounters but I found them to be a bit more tedious in the sequel.

I prefer the SP system over the MP one. I also like that you can level up SP and TP in the library.

I hate evasion so the fact that it's completely broken in LoT is a plus for me.

I like the puzzles in the first game more than any of the ones in the sequel. I know most people can't stand the Fail Safe switches but I enjoyed having to constantly manage my party to maximize TP so I could reach the really out of the way switches.

I the original soundtrack in the first game more than I like the soundtrack from the sequel. They're both good but none of the songs really "wow'd" me in LoT2.

I found the boss fights to be more engaging in the first game though I was slightly disappointed with a few of them because I had heard that Alice, Eientei and Rinnosuke were supposedly these impassable walls that would kick your butt over and over again but none of them really felt too difficult despite having not grinded. Rinnosuke did take more than one attempt but the other two I managed to beat on my first try going into them blind. LoT2 has some good bosses as well like Guardian of the Crystals and SoC but I just preferred the ones from LoT.

I can't tell you whether this is the consensus or not but I figured I'd offer my personal opinion of the two games.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 06:08:01 pm by zeroxtime62 »

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2018, 07:51:01 pm »
so uh, my save file disappeared. at the load screen its like it never existed. anything i can do to fix this or am I just fucked, a cautionary tale to always keep multiple save files?

Rinnie

  • Nickname: Rinnosuke
  • Gender: Male
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2018, 08:37:29 pm »
so uh, my save file disappeared. at the load screen its like it never existed. anything i can do to fix this or am I just fucked, a cautionary tale to always keep multiple save files?
You need recall in your memory everything you did before save file disappeared. Also check your game directory, it should have "save" subdirectory - check it if it has any files in it (and if it is read-only, just in case).

End of July soon, so the final patch is almsot here? My test character (https://i.imgur.com/etMuNvi.png) is ready to discover how deep he can go in the final version of endless corridor :) And ready to test his strength against  WINNER of any level :) Standard WINNER was one-shotted without a fight.

(Of course I have normal party too, I am just messing around while waiting for patch and also testing various stuff)

charliebobson

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2018, 09:02:54 pm »
i ended up just starting a new game, which is surprising because normally i usually just take a break for a while whenever this happens with other games. This game is some quality shit though so an exception was made.

ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2018, 11:50:41 pm »
so whats the general consensus on labyrinth of touhou 1? is it better or worse than 2, is it still worth playing after 2?
LoT 2 has many many quality of life improvements that make the game much less permanent in your choices, which has its benefits if you're the type to under invest if you're worried about regretting your spending down the line. This makes 2 overall easier because you can retweak your characters as much as you want, whereas with 1 for the most optimal party you need to decide from the start where you want to allocate your level up points and hope that you've made the right decision later in the game.

Subclasses and skillsets are a mixed bag for me, I don't mind the variability in playstyles you can attain through using them but as a first time player of 2 it was really stressful and got to a point where i was constantly worrying that i wasn't using the most optimal party and therefore making things much harder on myself unknowingly. I think the sheer level of tweaks available are great if you're the kind of person who loves theorycrafting different parties but that's not me so it wasn't a huge plus in my book.

Aesthetically obviously 2 has the edge but with a charagraph pack 1 isn't that bad either, the music is decent still.

Where I think 1 really shines is in it's boss battles, because 2's boss battles imo are horrendously balanced in some parts, especially in postgame. 1's boss battles also benefited from the lack of a visible health bar I feel, because the desperation phases and health scripted moves came at a surprise unless you were closely counting damage. 1's bosses are definitely much more trial and error and punishing if you don't build your party correctly from the get go, but imo the difficulty isn't a bad thing.

Another huge plus is that 1's character balance overall as mentioned before is much better relative to each other. The worst character is still usable, the best characters aren't groundbreakingly OP and necessary for survival. There's only a few situations where someone in particular is hands down the best bet for a role in a boss, but even then there's always alternatives that work just as well, if needing a little bit of tweaking to get there. 2's got a fairly substansial amount of people where if you're not using them you're going to struggle a looot more (Hina, Nitori etc).  Someone in an earlier thread described it best, LoT1's character balance goes from like 5-9 on a 10 point scale. But LoT2's goes from 7-11. Where the overall roster is better in 2 but there's some that are way too good.

tl;dr really, your first playthrough in 1 will be fairly hard unless you extensively read on how to best prepare your characters. But with experience the game is not nearly as difficult. There's a big lack of quality of life improvements that are present in 2, but it's nothing you can't live without. The game is simpler and most of the strategy comes out in party management for exploring, and boss battles, which are better than 2's boss battles. Characters are all usable and there's no super amazing OP can't live without character. Just use a charagraph to get rid of the ugly portraits and enjoy yourself.

I greatly prefer 1 but the simplicity is much easier to deal with for me and there is more party flexibility because there aren't really any bosses that punish not using certain characters in the same way that 2 can do. I keep returning to 1 to replay it again and again, but I'm in no rush to do so for 2.

Xarizzar

  • RPG fan
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2018, 01:07:50 am »
2's got a fairly substansial amount of people where if you're not using them you're going to struggle a looot more (Hina, Nitori etc).  Someone in an earlier thread described it best, LoT1's character balance goes from like 5-9 on a 10 point scale. But LoT2's goes from 7-11. Where the overall roster is better in 2 but there's some that are way too good.
I don't think that's quite the case. Though I'm bad at this game, so I may be wrong here; when it comes to damage, I think if you have a glass cannon or two, characters like Nitori aren't really necessary mandatory. I think it's a "problem" of having enough of each role. Like Tank, Support, Healer, Glass Cannon, etc...
 

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