Topic: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2  (Read 1318 times)

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Tamer Anode/Cathode

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2018, 04:04:30 am »
so who's ready for Guilds prerelease

the LGS I play at has been doing drafts of RTR block leading up to this. Gatecrash was... an experience.

commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2018, 04:14:41 am »
I'm looking forward to it. I'll be curious to see how the guilds hold up, Dimir looks way better than the others on paper but I think it's also easiest to evaluate. The others might be sneakily better than I think they are. I'll definitely be playing Golgari.
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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2018, 04:00:54 am »
Magic Arena open beta started today. Is anyone playing? I created my account today and therefore missed out on a bunch of free mythics, but oh well.

There's a free singleton league available during launch week that's nuts. It gives a guaranteed rare if you do well enough (I've seen four opened so far and three of them were mythics) and it's pretty easy to game the system and just craft one-ofs instead of playsets with your starter crafting materials to get way higher deck quality than most people are working with.
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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2018, 08:22:51 pm »
Magic Arena open beta started today. Is anyone playing? I created my account today and therefore missed out on a bunch of free mythics, but oh well.

There's a free singleton league available during launch week that's nuts. It gives a guaranteed rare if you do well enough (I've seen four opened so far and three of them were mythics) and it's pretty easy to game the system and just craft one-ofs instead of playsets with your starter crafting materials to get way higher deck quality than most people are working with.

Rat Colony. Anyways I've been doing pretty okay with my Junk Knight deck, It's been doing well although can't do well against big threats

commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2018, 09:35:04 pm »
I've played against Rat Colony a few times in singleton and I thought it sucked. I definitely have a good matchup against it with my Golgari deck and all of my small value creatures bouncing around that makes it unprofitable for them to swing, but they're also just really soft to disruption with only one copy of Conqueror's Banner. Would not play, happy to play against.

Edit: I still don't really know how to evaluate Undergrowth overall, but it's interesting in formats with little or no good graveyard removal like Arena Singleton. It's slow and awkward so you don't want too much of it, but just one or two Undergrowth cards can end the game immediately if the game goes long. Makes Golgari scary for control to play against since they can never let their guard down and the threats are recyclable. If you have white and you're playing singleton consider packing Remorseful Cleric...
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 02:18:00 am by commandercool »
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Tamer Anode/Cathode

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2018, 03:46:03 pm »
Magic Arena open beta started today. Is anyone playing? I created my account today and therefore missed out on a bunch of free mythics, but oh well.

There's a free singleton league available during launch week that's nuts. It gives a guaranteed rare if you do well enough (I've seen four opened so far and three of them were mythics) and it's pretty easy to game the system and just craft one-ofs instead of playsets with your starter crafting materials to get way higher deck quality than most people are working with.
I had an account since closed beta, I'm trying to farm up enough coins from dailies to draft again since the reset

commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2018, 10:14:32 pm »
Ugh, prerelease went terribly. Played Golgari, went against four Boros decks in a row. Golgari seems... okay. But it's definitely pretty midrangey and doesn't like tons of early pressure. The payoffs aren't that exciting and there's not enough recycling to go hardcore grindy. I opened a Ral which was decent but definitely couldn't go in my deck and isn't worth enough to recoup my entry fee. Oh well, playing another one for free on Arena with the code card will be fun.
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Tamer Anode/Cathode

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2018, 01:36:26 am »
Yeah, my Golgari deck had a similar experience. I feel like you really want to fill out your early curve with stuff like Portcullis Vine, Pilfering Imp, and Burglar Rat, which can act as roadblocks against aggro and help fill your graveyard for later stuff.

Wound up going 1-3, my main cards worth anything are Mausoleum Secrets (1 regular, 1 promo) and a Chromatic Lantern. Might try again tomorrow with the Selesnya or Dimir pack, depending on how I feel

commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2018, 05:03:07 pm »
My paper Golgari prerelease went badly (2-2 and pulled a mid-value mythic) but it was solid gold next to my online Boros one (0-3, only the trashiest trash rares, never attacked once in three games). But I pulled a mythic wild card from my pity packs so oooooh weeeeell.

Edit: Wow, I've run into a couple of salty Rat Colony players in singleton league now who insta-scoop the second they see a repeatable removal effect. Free wins for me I guess...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 03:09:38 am by commandercool »
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commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2018, 03:40:41 am »
I've been slowly refining a Golgari deck built around Izoni on Arena and it's getting pretty savage. It's very Explore-heavy to smooth out my mana and make sure I hit at least decent Undergrowth numbers. Journey of Discovery is secretly incredible, I've gain 30+ life off of Wildgrowth Walker+Journey of Discovery+Izoni surprisingly many times. The real glue that holds the deck together is Find//Finality though, Find is a fantastic card that I would absolutely play even without Finality, and an added board wipe is just extra.

Building Golgari is crazy right now, there are so many playables that you can build three solid decks with almost no overlapping cards. It makes cutting stuff challenging, but it means there's tons of room for experimentation which is super fun. Unfortunately means I've been neglecting completing my mana base to try weird new strategies though, so I'm definitely losing games to all of my crappy budget lands occasionally.
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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2018, 08:28:11 pm »
For people that used to play yugioh or want to make fun of how stupidly complicated it is, I'm translating a series of comics on ruling complexity you can read over on reddit. Currently there are 7 chapters, you can find the link to the next chapter in my comment in the post, and I'm updating biweekly. It's pretty dumb, you should check it out.

If you're having trouble understanding, the comments can help. Or I guess you can ask me here.
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commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2018, 09:19:33 pm »
The main thing I know about Yu Gi Oh rulings is that people say things "miss timing" all the time. What is "missing timing"?
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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2018, 10:47:20 pm »
So there are effects that trigger and activate based on certain circumstances. There are two types, "if" and "when". Using destruction as an example: "If this card is destroyed: do ..." and "When this card is destroyed: do ..."

"When" effects can only be activated immediately after they get triggered. If something else happens afterwards before it can activate, then it can't activate. For example, suppose a card that says something like "Destroy 1 card, then draw a card" destroys the above "when this card is destroyed: do ..." card. Since drawing a card happens after the destroying, "when" effects will "miss timing". "If" effects don't have this issue, if the trigger meets its condition at anytime prior, then it can activate.

For the most part.
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commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2018, 11:18:18 pm »
Wait, what? So if you have a bunch of cards that say "When this card is destroyed do X" and your opponent plays something that says "Destroy all cards" then you would get to do X, but if the effect they use says "Destroy all cards and gain 1 life point" then it also secretly negates all of your death triggers? Is that right?
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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2018, 11:57:42 pm »
"Destroy all cards and gain 1 life point" then it also secretly negates all of your death triggers? Is that right?
Hahahahahaha.
Actually, no in that case, because the conjunction "and" means that the destroying and gaining life points happen simultaneously, so you could activate a "when" effect because both are the last event to happen.

If you said "Destroy all cards, then gain 1 life point", then yes, "when" effects cannot be activated, because the last thing to happen was gaining a life point.
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commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2018, 01:02:56 am »
Huh... I'm going to assume the implementation is less heinous than the description. What's the point of doing it that way, design-wise? On paper is sounds like a shitty trap, but I'm assuming there's some kind of reason for it.
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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2018, 01:22:59 am »
Just because, I guess? Most "when" effects are old but since they're still printing a few new "when" effects, I suppose it's not something they're planning on completely phasing out over time.
They mostly seem to be used to balance cards so that the conditions to use them are a little more restrictive, but it does seem more beginner unfriendly than anything else. Most of the time, it only makes those "when" cards unnecessarily crap.

(And there's the additional caveat that only the optional "when" effects miss timing, eg: "When this card is destroyed: you can ... ". Mandatory "when" effects don't.)
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commandercool

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2018, 02:07:02 am »
Ha ha what. That's just flip-flopping on the part of people making the rulings at that point. Or a deliberate new player trap, but I don't know why anyone would do that on purpose.

I've seen this kind of convoluted rules mess from games with very small rules committees before. If you have a few people with the power to clarify rulings and they don't necessarily agree or communicate with each other you get stuff like this where someone offhandedly makes a ruling and it creates a huge mess that everyone has to deal with forever, or until another person with the power to do so rules the other way. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened here, but I have seen that happen elsewhere (cough cough Heroclix).
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hyorinryu

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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2018, 06:16:39 am »
Wait, that sounds a little different from what I remember if it's what I'm thinking about. From what I recall, "missing the timing" would refer to effects that offer you the choice to activate an effect only do so when the activation requirements is the last thing to happen when the chain resolves. For example take "Dupe Frog." It's text states that "When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: You can add 1 "Frog" monster from your Deck or Graveyard to your hand, except "Dupe Frog"." If it's on the field and your opponent activates dark hole, you get his effect because Dupe Frog dying was the last thing that happened(Dark hole resolves -> Dupe dies.) However, if you were offer him as a tribute to summon something like say a Monarch. You would not get dupe's effect because the monarch getting summoned is the last thing that happens when things resolve and not dupe dying(sac Dupe-> Monarch appears).  Dupe not getting the effect is what I've seen being referred to "missing the timing." However, other cards, like Sangan, the retrival effect is mandatory. This means you can do all sorts of plays that involve sacrificing him and as long as he hits the graveyard, you will still get his effect.

I've never heard of any issues involving the "if" and "when" stuff. Is this new? The main stuff I'd hear about would be "Priority", and "Missing the timing." It's possible we're talking about the same thing, but I've never heard of any cards that would force your opponents cards to miss the timing. Usually "missing the timing" stuff occurs because the trigger happens in order to pay a cost. I've never heard of a card that makes cards miss the timing when the effects are what's causing stuff to trigger. 

Ha ha what. That's just flip-flopping on the part of people making the rulings at that point. Or a deliberate new player trap, but I don't know why anyone would do that on purpose.

I've seen this kind of convoluted rules mess from games with very small rules committees before. If you have a few people with the power to clarify rulings and they don't necessarily agree or communicate with each other you get stuff like this where someone offhandedly makes a ruling and it creates a huge mess that everyone has to deal with forever, or until another person with the power to do so rules the other way. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened here, but I have seen that happen elsewhere (cough cough Heroclix).

If I had to guess, it would probably have something to do with our Yugioh being a translation of Japanese Yugioh, and having to be consistent with standards set when Yugioh was extremely liberal with their translations.


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Re: Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2018, 09:56:17 am »
There not being a whole lot of mandatory "when" effects is probably why "if" vs "when" is brought up a lot. But yes, optional "when" effects are the only triggers that miss timing. Mandatory "when" effects and any "if" effects don't miss timing.

So suppose the following face-up monsters on the field are tributed as material for a Tribute summon. Since the event progression goes 1) monster on the field is tributed and leaves the field -> 2) Tribute monster is Tribute Summoned, we get:
  • Reborn Tengu's "if" effect will not miss timing and can Special Summon another.
  • Peten the Dark Clown's optional "when" effect will miss timing and cannot activate to Special Summon another.
  • Tour Bus's mandatory "when" effect will not miss timing and will activate its effect.
Mandatory "ifs" and mandatory "whens" are functionally identical. Neither optional "if" effects, mandatory "if" effects, nor mandatory "when" effects miss timing but the latter 2 are not optional. And only optional "when" effects miss timing. There's another word that sometimes shows up, "each time" effects, but these don't miss timing either, like "if" effects.

The effects that don't miss timing don't have to have their triggering conditions meet as the last thing to happen when the chain resolves, they can meet their conditions higher in the chain. Example:
Player 1 controls a Lord Gaia the Fierce Knight and Player 2 has a set Call of the Haunted.
CL1: Player 1 activates Mystical Space Typhoon, targetting Player 2's set Call of the Haunted.
CL2: Player 2 chains Call of the Haunted, targeting a Blue-Eyes White Dragon in the Graveyard.
CL2: Call of the Haunted resolves, Special Summoning Blue-Eyes White Dragon from the Graveyard.
CL1: Mystical Space Typhoon resolves, destroying Call of the Haunted. Since Call of the Haunted was destroyed, Blue-Eyes White Dragon is also destroyed by its effect.
Chain finishes resolving. Now, Special Summoning the Blue-Eyes was definitely not the last thing to happen, but Lord Gaia the Fierce Knight can still activate its trigger effect here because its "if" condition has been met and "if" effects don't miss timing. Basically, this page.

An example of an effect (rather than a cost) causing stuff to miss timing is Goblindbergh's effect: "When this card is Normal Summoned: You can Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower monster from your hand, also, after that, change this card to Defense Position."
When you summon a monster with 1500 or more ATK with this effect, the opponent cannot activate Bottomless Trap Hole since it reads: "When your opponent Summons a monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK: Destroy that monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK, and if you do, banish it."
Since the last event to happen was not a monster being summoned but rather Goblindbergh changing to Defense position, Bottomless Traphole misses timing.

"Priority" is another of those old mechanics that don't exist anymore but the word still exists to describe something else entirely, so it can get misused by people.
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