Topic: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest  (Read 10830 times)

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Jeremie

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2018, 09:02:01 am »
Pure Furies is the best boss theme and one of the best themes in the series.  Deal with it.

Oh please. Here's an accurate viewpoint of what I've seen the fans have been saying is the best boss theme in the series throughout the years: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/List_by_Song

I'm half-kidding but it's not THAT far from the truth now that I think of it.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2018, 09:04:56 am »
Oh please. Here's an accurate viewpoint of what I've seen the fans have been saying is the best boss theme in the series throughout the years: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/List_by_Song

I'm half-kidding but it's not THAT far from the truth now that I think of it.
What's that link trying to prove?
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Jeremie

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2018, 09:53:41 am »
What's that link trying to prove?

I've seen sooo many people say "X is the best theme" so many times by now which is why I showed that link. By now I think I saw most of those music themes mentioned as best by different people. Pure Furies is great yeah and the polls shows it's popular but everyone has their definition of best music. This isn't a poll about what is the best theme but about which one is the most popular so the whole "deal with it" attitude is rather obnoxious when everyone has so many different tastes (in a series that also has so many music themes with different styles) and there's so many reasons to like or dislike a specific theme more than the others.
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Shadowlupus

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2018, 10:48:45 am »
Reimu is the best character in the series.
U.N. Owen was her/Septette for the Dead Princess is the best theme in the series.
EoSD is the best thing ZUN has done EVAR.

Deal with it. /s

Jimmy

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2018, 11:03:08 am »
Folks, please let's not devolve this thread into a subjective debate about which musical theme is "the best" musical theme. Due to the subjectivity of this whole topic, I don't think that there even a "best" or "worst" theme by definition. Everyone likes what they like. Same goes for the characters here.

Pure Furies is the best boss theme and one of the best themes in the series.  Deal with it.
While Pure Furies is certainly my favorite in the entire franchise, I wouldn't argue with "the best" or "the worst" because of aforementioned reasons. Everyone has different tastes, and if someone declares a certain theme/character to be "the best", which sounds like an established fact, which it is not, risks to set off an unnecessary clash.

Wow I'm not the only one who thinks Pure Furies is massively overrated. Even beyond it's mostly bland feel, I've been telling people this whole time that the drums are slightly out of sync with the rest of the instruments and it drives me crazy. The curse of having a good ear for rhythm, I guess. :V
Damnit, you almost made me consider swapping places between Pure Furies and The Concealed Four Seasons
I'm not quite sure what other people think about this, but in my ears, "overrated" is such an impure word to use here. It almost sounds like looking down on people who like this theme, same actually goes for saying that any of the, say, Top 20 themes, is "overrated", especially Septette and U.N. Owen, which have been holding the throne for God knows how long. They are not my favorites by a long shot, but even then I firmly refrain from using this word, because it sounds kinda provoking to me and thus it could provoke other people as well.
I guess everyone takes that word differently, huh.

Also, I think that the drum rhythm in Pure Furies is near perfection with the overall melody, considering what this theme is supposed to convey. It evokes such a great deal of emotions for me to the extend that "bland" almost sounds like an insult, but then again, you do you, I do me.


With all that's been said, please at least let's not judge other people's tastes. Sharing one's tastes is perfectly fine, as long as those are respected by everybody involved.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2018, 11:44:23 am »
I've seen sooo many people say "X is the best theme" so many times by now which is why I showed that link. By now I think I saw most of those music themes mentioned as best by different people. Pure Furies is great yeah and the polls shows it's popular but everyone has their definition of best music. This isn't a poll about what is the best theme but about which one is the most popular so the whole "deal with it" attitude is rather obnoxious when everyone has so many different tastes (in a series that also has so many music themes with different styles) and there's so many reasons to like or dislike a specific theme more than the others.
Still don't get why you showed me that link.

if someone declares a certain theme/character to be "the best", which sounds like an established fact, which it is not, risks to set off an unnecessary clash.


You make it sound like someone declaring what they think is the best thing ever is offensive and plain wrong.  Can't a guy like Hawaiian pizza and say that this is the best pizza ever?

And on the side note, I never got the hate for Hawaiian pizza.  Not my favorite, but I find nothing wrong combining pineapples with pizza.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 11:48:33 am by game2011 »
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Jimmy

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2018, 12:01:18 pm »
You make it sound like someone declaring what they think is the best thing ever is offensive and plain wrong.  Can't a guy like Hawaiian pizza and say that this is the best pizza ever?
I never said that doing this is absolutely wrong, but merely implied that tastes are generally not facts and that declaring the own taste as the "best thing ever" might create unpleasant and highly subjective quarrels with people who view the same thing differently, which is the last thing we would want to happen here.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2018, 12:14:27 pm »
"Hawaiian pizza is my favorite!" - personal opinion, subjective, okay.
"Hawaiian pizza is the best ever!" - stating a fact, objective, Inquisition is already on its way.

An excuse that you said the latter but "obviously" meant the former doesn't work. Because guess what, some things CAN be objectively better than others. And it doesn't matter what you really meant to people who heard you. They only know what you say, not what you think. So be prepared that everyone will take what you say at face value and learn to word your thoughts better.

Anyway, everyone's wrong, Gensokyo Millennium is obviously the best theme ever :)
Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2018, 12:48:39 pm »
I hear people say "this the best ever" or "this is the greatest thing  ever" often, so I wouldn't think too much about whether or not it would offend others.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2018, 01:06:55 pm »
Some of yall being dumb as hell.

They're all good characters, Brant. People can like what they like.

Except Mima.


Edit: Also revised my vote. Dropped Aunn, she doens't need my help. Moved Ringo to #6, made Kanako #5
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 03:29:42 pm by Purvis Black »

TresserT

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2018, 07:37:20 pm »
Night of Nights is objectively the best song in the series, and the Five Magical Stones >>>> your garbage waifu. Deal with it.

More seriously, I still haven't decided my entire list, but after AoCF my opinion of Byakuren's no longer my #1 and in fact has gone waaaay down (I can like asshole characters, but when the thing I love about someone is their heroicness, learning that they're in fact an asshole deep down is pretty soul crushing). On the flip side, my opinion of Tenshi has gone way up. Though more in how much I like her as a character, not so much my opinion of her as a person, if that makes sense.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 07:40:28 pm by TresserT »
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2018, 08:48:12 pm »
If it helps any, the impression I get of the dream world selves is that you shouldn't really take them at face value, but as an exaggeration of one's hidden traits. Kind of like shadows in Persona. Besides, part of what makes Touhou charming for me is how human and non-idealized the characters are in canon.

Anyway, I should leave my votes here for posterity as well. I voted as soon as I could to make up for missing last year's vote:

Characters

1. Gengetsu
2. Yukari
3. Youmu
4. Sanae
5. Tenshi
6. Kurumi
7. Hatate

Having only seven characters made it hard to decide, but I dropped Reimu and Yuka because I felt others needed the votes more. I'm hoping AoCF gives Tenshi a big boost this year!

Music

1. Eternal Shrine Maiden
2. The Gensokyo the Gods Loved
3. Dream Land
4. Illusionary White Traveler
5. Hidden Star in All Seasons
6. Egoistic Flowers
7. The Primal View of Japan The Girl Saw (have been listening to this one a lot recently so I can't really not vote for it)
8. The Barrier at Ame No Torifune Shrine (to give my complimentary vote to a CD song)
9. Infinite Nightmare
10. Faraway Voyage of 380 000 Kilometers (In honor of being attached to one of my all-time favorite stages)

Rather than make a comprehensive list of favorites, I decided to mix my all-time favorites along with songs I wanted to show support for, with an emphasis on more recent games. But there's far too many treasured themes to narrow it down to just ten. D:
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2018, 09:42:45 pm »
Drake, if you are reading this: Just telling you that Meira and Elis are in the opposite positions in your translation.

Votes - no particular order after 1st:
Character-Votes:

1. Yukari
2. Kokoro
3. Raiko
4. Medicine
5. Utsuho
6. Koishi
7. Meira

Music-Votes:

1. Izanagi Object
2. Evening Star
3. Sylphid Dream
4. Neo Super-Express
5. Little Princess
6. Hartmann
7. Pure Furies
8. The Village in the Dead of Night
9. Peaceful Romancer
10. Necro-Fantasia (AoCF)

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2018, 10:47:11 pm »
Nice catch. I don't even know how that could have happened.


Also the whole "don't state opinions as fact" thing is dumb. It should be clear enough that anyone talking about their tastes as though it were fact is just exaggeration, but even with topics that have more meaningful measures of quality behind them, reading comments that sound like statements of fact should just be pushed towards the next level of opinion, where the person is saying that the thing has measurable qualities that in their opinion make it good or better than other things. It's all subjective relative to some frame of reference in the end.

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Jimmy

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2018, 10:52:27 pm »
Also the whole "don't state opinions as fact" thing is dumb. It should be clear enough that anyone talking about their tastes as though it were fact is just exaggeration, but even with topics that have more meaningful measures of quality behind them, reading comments that sound like statements of fact should just be pushed towards the next level of opinion, where it's that person's view that the thing has qualities that in their opinion make it good or better than other things. It's all subjective relative to some frame of reference in the end.
Alright, got it.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #75 on: January 20, 2018, 02:54:37 am »
More seriously, I still haven't decided my entire list, but after AoCF my opinion of Byakuren's no longer my #1 and in fact has gone waaaay down (I can like asshole characters, but when the thing I love about someone is their heroicness, learning that they're in fact an asshole deep down is pretty soul crushing). On the flip side, my opinion of Tenshi has gone way up. Though more in how much I like her as a character, not so much my opinion of her as a person, if that makes sense.

I think someone who has a deep desire to do bad things but never acts on it is fundamentally a good person. I mean, otherwise "good" would be almost meaningless. Blaming someone for their thoughts that they never act on seems a little wrong to me too.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2018, 03:35:49 am »
On top of that, I don't think AoCF's depiction of Dream Byakuren is surprising to begin with. Having that kind of hidden self-serving nature is a core part of Byakuren's character imo, being hinted at a little even in her debut but gradually becoming more distinct the more works she appears in. We've been having conversations about her negative parts for ages.


In other news, I just realized that despite spending so much time on the contest, I haven't voted myself yet
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:46:13 am by Drake »

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TresserT

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #77 on: January 20, 2018, 03:56:45 am »
On top of that, I don't think AoCF's depiction of Dream Byakuren is surprising to begin with. Having that kind of hidden self-serving nature is a core part of Byakuren's character imo, being hinted at a little even in her debut but gradually becoming more distinct the more works she appears in. We've been having conversations about her negative parts for ages.

I do agree with this, there've been hints and shades of this side of her since her appearance, it's just never been as blatant or as extreme before (which I guess makes sense given the nature of the Dream selves). My opinion of her dropped a bit after HM and ULiL, but this was kind of the tipping point.

I think someone who has a deep desire to do bad things but never acts on it is fundamentally a good person. I mean, otherwise "good" would be almost meaningless. Blaming someone for their thoughts that they never act on seems a little wrong to me too.

When you put it like that I can agree, but like, that's not really the case here. She says things like "having disciples do all the chores and calling it training makes my life so much easier". Even in the most favorable light, that's less "not acting on bad impulses" and more "selfishly benefitting from good intentions."

Not that I totally hate her character now or anything.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2018, 06:23:47 am »
Personally, I think that characterization of her dream self is because of how she was to begin with.  She began helping the youkai completely out of selfishness at first, and only after a good while in helping their plight that she eventually became legitimately empathetic of their cause.  Before that?  Egocentric b mode.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dream Byakuren is a reflection of that past Byakuren.  Perhaps some really, really buried-deep fragment of her that's still in Hijiri's mind?  iirc dream selves are a lot more about subconscious than proper conscious, so maybe her behavior is more of that older, repressed side instead of what she truly feels regarding others. 

That being said, my only disappointment with the Yorigamis' scenario is that it isn't any longer, because checking other character's dream selves out is really funny. 

Aaand for my ranking so this post gets (a little bit!) on topic:

1) Seiga (+2)
2) Hecatia
3) Satono
4) Doremy
5) Futo
6) Joon
7) Shion

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2018, 06:31:32 am »
Oh damn it, what i feared the most has literally just happened, people taking the damn dream selfs at face value and not realizing they are exaggerated versions of their original selves, not how they actually feel.

Dream Miko wants to kill all Youkai. Dream Tenshi wants to take over the world. Dream Mamizou wants to take over Japan. We see none of those characters act that way in canon, so there's no reason to assume that they are normally like that

But when it's Byakuren, OF COURSE she has to be the only one who is absolutely 100% like what her dream self is. People seem to have it out for her.


It should be clear enough that anyone talking about their tastes as though it were fact is just exaggeration, but even with topics that have more meaningful measures of quality behind them, reading comments that sound like statements of fact should just be pushed towards the next level of opinion, where the person is saying that the thing has measurable qualities that in their opinion make it good or better than other things.
You underestimate the internet, where people DO state their opinions as facts, and quite often (If not on this community), this isn't real life when we have things like tone of voice to judge what someones true feelings really are, you can't really know completely for sure on the web.
So no, it is bad to state your opinions without terms like "in my opinion", it just creates unnecessary confusion. Don't do it.
Having that kind of hidden self-serving nature is a core part of Byakuren's character imo, being hinted at a little even in her debut
I don't recall anything about Byakuren being self-serving in UFO, that stuff wasn't a thing until her later appearances.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2018, 06:37:29 am »
I missed out on voting last year, so I wanted to make sure I didn't miss it this year.

Characters:
- Mononobe no Futo (1st)
- Koakuma
- Satori Komeiji
- Reimu Hakurei
- Remilia Scarlet
- Nue Houjuu
- Suwako Moriya

Music:
- Cinderella Cage ~ Kagome-Kagome (1st)
- Youkai Domination ~ Who done it?
- Last Remote
- Alice in Wonderland
- Doll Judgement
- Native Faith
- Loose Rain
- Interdimensional Passage of a Ghostly Passenger Ship
- The Gensokyo the Gods Loved
- Septette for a Dead Princess

Works:
- Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (1st)
- Undefined Fantastic Object
- Imperishable Night
- Lotus Land Story
- Ten Desires

Drake

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2018, 10:48:42 am »
You underestimate the internet, where people DO state their opinions as facts, and quite often (If not on this community), this isn't real life when we have things like tone of voice to judge what someones true feelings really are, you can't really know completely for sure on the web.
The point is that it doesn't really matter what their intention is. Whether they have plenty of well thought-out justifications or none at all, and whether their conviction is strong or not, it's still just their viewpoint. How you read the statement should be the same regardless. If they actually think their opinion has some kind of measurable basis above personal taste they can argue for it, and it only stands as well as they can defend it.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2018, 10:55:10 am »
I don't recall anything about Byakuren being self-serving in UFO, that stuff wasn't a thing until her later appearances.

This part:

[...] She began helping the youkai completely out of selfishness at first, and only after a good while in helping their plight that she eventually became legitimately empathetic of their cause. [...]

...is outright stated in her UFO profile.

As for everything else, there IS a huge distinction. Miko, Tenshi and Mamizou were/are showing those sides of them from the start while Byakuren hides it like it's never been a thing. I guess that looks too much like hypocrisy, no matter whether she just tries to overcome it and fails or is legitimately still feeding her selfish side.

WindyKitsune

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #83 on: January 20, 2018, 12:32:22 pm »
These are my preferences:

Characters:
  • 上白沢 慧音 - Kamishirasawa Keine
  • 秋 静葉 - Aki Shizuha
  • 秋 穣子 - Aki Minoriko
  • 八坂 神奈子 - Yasaka Kanako
  • 博麗 霊夢 - Hakurei Reimu
  • 矢田寺 成美 - Yatadera Narumi
  • リリーホワイト - Lily White

Music:
  • ハートフェルトファンシー (SA)
  • 廃獄ララバイ (SA)
  • 業火マントル (SA)
  • 地霊達の起床 (SA)
  • 神さびた古戦場 ~ Suwa Foughten Field (MoF)
  • 魔法の笠地蔵 (HSiFS)
  • 魔法少女達の百年祭 (EoSD)
  • 桜色の海を泳いで (HSiFS)
  • 明日ハレの日、ケの昨日 (MoF)
  • さくらさくら ~ Japanize Dream... (PCB)

Works:
  • 東方永夜抄 ~ Imperishable Night
  • 東方風神録 ~ Mountain of Faith
  • 東方地霊殿 ~ Subterranean Animism
  • 東方紅魔郷 ~ the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
  • The Grimoire of Marisa


While voting for characters was tough, selecting music and casting votes for it was really really painful; it's emotionally hard labelling some of them as "Best" and set hierachy for them while leaving many others out; maybe the fact you only have to divide songs in three groups (first preference, other nine without sorting and others) could help, but when you have to choice which will get the last empty position and which won't then things become problematic. I have the feeling that choosing 10 possibilities among 300+ (more?) songs (100+ in my case) is not enough... Plus the variety of songs is just enough to say that comparing them is stuff that will make your times hard.

Besides that, while listening each of them in Music Room I appreciated that even minor songs (like IaMP dialog songs, PCB post game song, MoF post game song, MoF/SA Player's Score, others...) are well done in terms of quality; music creates atmosfere while playing danmaku, but it's worthy notice that it's really good by itself.

About characters, well, partly popular, partly not popular, partly new. Fair enough.

Quwanti

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #84 on: January 20, 2018, 05:34:05 pm »
Results are up!
Characters
Music
Works

Friend made this list. I also added it to the wiki.
1. Reimu
2. Marisa
3. Koishi
4. Youmu
5. Sakuya
6. Flandre
7. Remilia
8. Satori
9. Alice
10. Mokou
11. Aya
12. Tenshi
13. Yukari
14. Sanae
15. Shion
16. Reisen
17. Kokoro
18. Yuyuko
19. Momiji
20. Kogasa
45. Okina
47. Aunn
54. Joon
76. Narumi
83. Mai
87. Satono
95. Eternity
109. Nemuno
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 06:22:27 pm by Quwanti »

Jimmy

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #85 on: January 20, 2018, 05:45:04 pm »
> Pure Furies 3rd

 :getdown: :getdown: :getdown:


> Concealed Four Seasons 32nd

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #86 on: January 20, 2018, 07:15:30 pm »
Miko, Tenshi and Mamizou were/are showing those sides of them from the start while Byakuren hides it like it's never been a thing.

Since when has Mamizou tried to take over japan? Since when has Miko ever tried to kill all Youkai?

Don't try to excuse this, this misunderstanding is just because of the fandom's weird hate/love relationship with Byakuren. No other character gets this much mixed reactions but her IMHO.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2018, 07:19:45 pm »
Mamizou has been shown as a schemer who's eager to get power and influence in Gensokyo. Miko has been shown as pro-human and anti-youkai. What their dream selves say are reasonable exaggeration of what have been shown of them.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2018, 07:27:34 pm »


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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2018, 07:28:33 pm »
Wow HSiFS sure is unpopular.
 

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