Author Topic: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest  (Read 74298 times)

Helepolis

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #150 on: January 22, 2018, 07:20:13 AM »
It's not my fault you have shit taste :V
Joke's on you, I am lately all about the 193.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #151 on: January 22, 2018, 08:28:37 AM »
The real tragedy here is the fact that 4chan Teller fell 6 places. And only 4 of those places went to new characters. Then again, after his characterization in AoCF it's understandable.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #152 on: January 22, 2018, 10:15:59 AM »
oops i wrote a lot

The whole reason why the dream world selves exist as a thing is to bring out the most impulsive and extreme versions of those characters. Obviously it's hyperbole, that is the point. But it's hyperbole based on parts of those characters that already exist; you can't have a hyperbole without a baseline. With high consistency, the strategy of defending Byakuren tends to come down to misdirecting or downplaying the text and subtext that exists in the works. The act of making Byakuren's dream self what she is, and not something else, is very good quality evidence that what people have been reading for the past several years has not been coincidence or unintentional. The dream selves of every character are not very surprising as extreme extensions of themselves. I don't think much new information is being given precisely because I see these things as having already been established in one way or another. Claiming the dream world selves mean nothing just because it's funny hyperbole would be incredibly foolish and smells more like trying to ignore information because it doesn't align with preconceived notions, especially since it supports the readings of past works that also conveniently tend to be downplayed or dismissed.

It's not like I have any stock in Byakuren having some of these flaws and "need" her to be flawed because I want to keep that interpretation of her; that makes no sense, I gain nothing from that. I like Byakuren, I think she's complex and a very interesting character. Talking about character assassination seems to make the accusation that people are invested in bringing the character down or making others dislike her or something, when first of all I see no reason to want to bring her down, but secondly I don't think having certain flaws that make her a bit sketchy means that she's a bad character or that people should dislike her. That's a big difference to when people are defending a character they like, because that can look a lot more like they're actually defending their personal image of the character and their investment in that interpretation, especially if why they like the character is closely tied to the subject of criticism. Suggesting that other people are criticizing a character because they're somehow invested in that "negative" idea of the character, rather than it just being their neutral reading of the works, feels like projection. Meanwhile someone consistently dismissing what other people find worth criticizing and saying that's just their reading of the works, feels more like wanting to paint their vision of the character they like on the original work as though that's the true author intent, because they want their image to match the author's.

Relatedly, I don't think people disliking a character (or not being able to like a character) should be dependent on whether or not you dislike them "as a person". Particularly in Touhou, but kind of generally in media. It's part of writing narrative-driven fiction that you set up things so that the audience gets certain emotional reactions to characters that prime and cue them to how they're supposed to view the character. You're primed that the bad guy is the bad guy because they do bad things, as the most simplistic example, which is also why if the real bad guy wasn't someone you were primed to see as the bad guy, it's considered a plot twist. In these cases, especially in video games, the work benefits from you disliking the character "as a person" because the narrative is structured around those points, such as the resulting catharsis when a villain is defeated. But disliking the character "as a character" because you dislike them "as a person" is pretty much the most basic of reasons for dislike because all that happened is that you were manipulated by the writer to react how they intended. This is why disliking bad guys because they're bad guys is dumb and instead you hear people talking about how a character is or isn't "a good villain".

I think this is especially true in a series like Touhou; not only because everyone is kind of a flawed dick in various ways, but also because Touhou isn't even really driven by plot and doesn't largely depend on how the audience reacts to create its depth. It definitely does this on small scales, and in some cases when works have larger narratives like FS and Bougetsushou, but not to the extent that like, ZUN would be priming the audience for Kogasa to get her revenge on Reimu for beating her up after smithing her needles, for example. Instead we get things like Reimu gets her comeuppance for forming a get rich quick scheme and failing, because these are character points. So when I see people for example saying they dislike Reimu because she's a jerk, all that says to me is that they have only a surface-level appreciation of characters and the series.

Meanwhile, people can like a character for whatever the heck reasons they want. That can be based on liking them as a person or relating to them, but it doesn't have to; your like of a character can be as arbitrary as anything, and it doesn't have to be tied to the original work at all. Headcanon and interpretations in fanworks are perfectly valid justifications for liking a character and it doesn't even matter because you're allowed to like what you like for whatever reasons you want. This is why it doesn't make sense to me to dislike characters or not be able to like them based on their flaws or negative traits. It's all just a part of building well-written and complex characters, and the reasons you like a character shouldn't be negatively affected by other people pointing out their flaws in the original work, because tightly coupling your like of a character to how they are presented in the original work (especially an ongoing work) seems unhealthy and unstable.

Small essay? I'm also not accusing Paz of anything here, some of it might be on the mark or not, but I think he has fine intentions that I just happen to disagree with (you can reply privately to me if you want). I'm mostly 1) defending the dream world selves as meaningful, 2) defending my own criticism of Byakuren as neutral and not ill-intended, 3) arguing that presenting criticism of a character and trying to defend a character you like from criticism tends to have different levels of bias, and 4) miscellaneous commentary on liking/disliking characters in media and how it applies to Touhou because it's relevant to the immediate discussion and character popularity as a whole.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 04:24:54 PM by Drake »

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Suwako Moriya

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #153 on: January 22, 2018, 04:10:48 PM »
I will confess I missed CyberAngel's post in my review because I stopped reviewing at this post, which contains an impassioned defense against an attack that had not yet happened to that point in the thread. I don't necessarily agree that CyberAngel's post is "bashing" Byakuren but I can see how the second half of it would be taken that way.

That being said, this is the official end of all current nonsense surrounding the 41st-most popular Touhou in this thread. We are all moving on to other things.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #154 on: January 22, 2018, 06:08:27 PM »
What I want to know is why Cirno is least popular EoSD character, other than the ones that don't even have official names.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #155 on: January 22, 2018, 07:45:25 PM »
Yeah, thats odd. With how "meme"-y the character is and the amount of portayal she got, you could think that she would at least be on the top ten. As much hype as tanned Cirno got, the attention was short lived.

Then again, she didn't get a vote from me either so I can't be bothered.  :V

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #156 on: January 22, 2018, 07:50:36 PM »
What I think is interesting is how this is the first Works poll that has another fighter (Antinomy of Common Flowers) above Touhou Hisoutensoku.

Yeah, thats odd. With how "meme"-y the character is and the amount of portayal she got, you could think that she would at least be on the top ten. As much hype as tanned Cirno got, the attention was short lived.

Then again, she didn't get a vote from me either so I can't be bothered.  :V
Maybe she's one of those character many people like, but not that many really bother voting for.

Aya Reiko

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2018, 08:20:52 PM »
What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is how all of the new characters from HSFS pretty much crashed and burned, while Shion debuted at 15th.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2018, 08:26:36 PM »
I'm not well versed enough in the nature of these polls to say for sure, but could the fact that HSiFS came out 6 months ago while AoCF came out a few weeks ago have anything to do with that?
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2018, 08:34:59 PM »
The polls are usually half a year after game releases. AoCF is an exception, which may be why it's overshadowing HSiFS.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #160 on: January 22, 2018, 08:55:03 PM »
I predicted that Shion would do well in the poll (mainly because of Japanese voters), but it's kinda sad that there's this huge gap between Jo'on and Shion. It's obvious why Shion got so many votes, but personally I don't find her as any kind of a memorable character at all (not even based on design!). At the end of the day, people are still going to make
Spoiler:
poverty jokes
with Reimu.

Also I agree with the Cirno discussion, because although she's my second-favourite EoSD character, there's no chance of me voting for her in the polls.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 08:58:26 PM by GenericArrangements »
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2018, 08:55:52 PM »
That and the fact that Shion is a poor starving moe blob (or at least gets depicted as that from the fanbase), and we all know how popular those are.  :derp:

HSiFS needs some time to get established as a main part of the series. It feels new, but not sparkling new and doesn't have this (kinda) nostalgic feel to it yet. Whereas AoCF was just released and despite the many flaws, was well recieved. Also, AoCF didn't bring to much to the table with two new characters. The older ones had their fans already.

Another thing: It's sad to see that the number of votes are going down significantly each year.

2016
Points:                                     320015
Number of 1st Place Votes: 42419

2017
Points:                                     264779
Number of 1st Place Votes: 35443

2018
Points:                                     227872
Number of 1st Place Votes: 30493

Can't be helped but it still pains me.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 09:18:54 PM by Wrathful_Scythe »

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #162 on: January 22, 2018, 09:01:28 PM »
Cirno's been at that spot for the past five years, having dropped off rather precipitously after her minor appearance in DDC.  Don't know why, but that seems to have been a break point for some reason.  As has been said, her recent appearances in Fairies last year and Hidden Star this year didn't budge her at all, so there's something that isn't clicking on the JP side.

What I want to know is, how Rumia got to this point.  Sure she dropped a spot to Shion's new appearance this year, but she's been slowly crawling up the rankings year after year.  If it was just Little Reimu hype or something, I'd imagine it to be a sharper jump.  Heck, I haven't even seen an increase of Rumia arts or stories to associate with this.  But there she is.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #163 on: January 22, 2018, 09:39:17 PM »
I was a little disappointed to see the HSiFS cast not break the top 40 too, but I agree that it may simply take time for them to click with the fanbase. It's worth saying that fighting game debut characters get more initial characterization due to the amount of dialogue and story modes than almost any other character, so you could say Jo'on and Shion have a head start on the HSiFS cast despite being much newer. I think it's safe to say that we have not seen the last of a lot of the HSiFS cast, so I say we should give them until their next major appearance to judge how they fall with the fandom - after all, just look at Doremy's boost after AoCF.

Another thing: It's sad to see that the number of votes are going down significantly each year.

2016
Points:                                     320015
Number of 1st Place Votes: 42419

2017
Points:                                     264779
Number of 1st Place Votes: 35443

2018
Points:                                     227872
Number of 1st Place Votes: 30493

Can't be helped but it still pains me.

It is a little sad to see the voting turnout decrease, but I don't think that means Touhou is losing its edge by any means. There's just a lot of other works that divide attention, like the ever-present KanColle and F/GO. In terms of quality and production, I'd argue Touhou is as strong as it has been in years, and the fanbase still quite vibrant. And really, we should follow ZUN's example. Just as he has said he'll continue making Touhou no matter how popular it is, so long as we all continue to enjoy Touhou and all it's done, I think that's what is important.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #164 on: January 22, 2018, 10:08:42 PM »
HSiFS needs some time to get established as a main part of the series. It feels new, but not sparkling new and doesn't have this (kinda) nostalgic feel to it yet. Whereas AoCF was just released and despite the many flaws, was well recieved. Also, AoCF didn't bring to much to the table with two new characters. The older ones had their fans already.
I don't see that happening.  What I think happened with the HSFS crew is this:
1) No character is memorable. None of them seemed to have clicked with the fanbase, nor did they generate any fan-memes either.
2) No one is really connected to each other.  There aren't any significant cast herds in HSFS, nor did they connect to any previously established ones either.

Quote
Another thing: It's sad to see that the number of votes are going down significantly each year.

2016
Points:                                     320015
Number of 1st Place Votes: 42419

2017
Points:                                     264779
Number of 1st Place Votes: 35443

2018
Points:                                     227872
Number of 1st Place Votes: 30493

Can't be helped but it still pains me.
I think the Touhou fandom has drifted into what can be called a Generational state.  There's still the core fans, but they prefer things that were popular when they became fans, and that seems to be what was popular when MoF and/or SA was new.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #165 on: January 23, 2018, 12:30:32 AM »
I don't see that happening.  What I think happened with the HSFS crew is this:
1) No character is memorable. None of them seemed to have clicked with the fanbase, nor did they generate any fan-memes either.
2) No one is really connected to each other.  There aren't any significant cast herds in HSFS, nor did they connect to any previously established ones either.
The first sentence sounds very much like your personal opinion, which doesn't necessarily reflect how the HSiFS cast was received by the fanbase as a whole.
Some like them, others don't, and that's no problem, to each their own.
Okina has the best final boss fight in all of 2hu what're u talkin about
One point though: the amount of fanart for the HSiFS cast is only crawling up slowly and fanart for both Jo'on and Shion are quite literally skyrocketing, suggesting a better reception among the fans. While this can be used as a vague indicator of how popular a character is, it's worth noting that everyone can/does appreciate a character they like in different ways, not only in producing fanart.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean with "cast herds", but going by the context, I guess that they're sort of significant groups of characters that have visible connections to each other and the established lore.
There are certainly games with large distinctive groups of characters that share visible connections between each other (like in EoSD (Scarlet Devil Mansion), SA (Palace of Earth Spirits), UFO (Myouren Temple Crew) and TD (The Taoists, with some additional Myouren Temple members)) and there are games where characters are either loose individuals or scattered in smaller groups/pairs (most notably MoF (different inhabitants of the Youkai Mountain and the Moriya Shrine), DDC (Grassroots, the Tsukumos and Raiko, Shinmyoumaru and Seija), LoLK (the moon rabbits and Sagume, Doremy, and the invader trio) and actually also HSiFS).
However, while the HSiFS characters don't have any particular connections between each other (except Okina-Mai-Satono), they actually do connect pretty well with established lore, with each character having a certain degree of familiarity to the protagonists or other existing characters (Eternity-Cirno, Nemuno-Aya, Aunn-Reimu (with Aunn having been a komainu statue's divine spirit before Okina gave her an animated physical appearance through the magical energy through her portal doors), Narumi-Marisa (Marisa mentioned once in IN that she put "funny hats on stone statues" in the Forest of Magic, which happens to be the place where Narumi is encountered and that Narumi is an animated stone statue (Jizo)), and Okina-Yukari/Okina-Kasen (all are sages, among other things)), which actually evokes an atmosphere of familiarity instead of alienation.
Speaking of which, I'd argue that the LoLK cast is the most detached from the established lore and characters, literally none of them are living in Gensokyo, much less originating from there. They only came into the spotlight for one game because a couple of them have caused trouble that prompted the heroines to go investigate, and that's about it (except for Seiran, Ringo and Clownpiece), thus potentially eliminating chances of possible future interactions between them and existing characters (and thus also preventing additional canon expansion), which I think can't be said at all about the HSiFS cast.

We'll have to wait and see.
The polls are usually half a year after game releases. AoCF is an exception, which may be why it's overshadowing HSiFS.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 12:41:06 AM by Jimmy »
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #166 on: January 23, 2018, 12:40:13 AM »
Tried to post from my phone and the message got eaten. Jimmy basically said what I was going to say.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 12:42:40 AM by Clarste »

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #167 on: January 23, 2018, 12:23:43 PM »
HSiFS is one of the better games in terms of how characters were introduced and their relationship with the game's overall themes, story and heroines. ZUN has been getting better at it as of late. It's much better in that regard than, say, IN or MoF.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #168 on: January 23, 2018, 02:36:27 PM »
The problem with HFiFS is, as someone else in the internet said, that the only plot relevant character is Okina. Stage 1 to 4 are just random people you meet while you're wandering aimlessly. They're all the stage 1-2 bosses of other games. Satono and Mai are technically relevant, but they're basically just Okina's servants, and they don't have enough personality to stand out from their master.

And then, like said above, they lack a notable cast herd (character groups, basically). Aunn has the luck to be involved in Hakurei Shrine both in canon and fanon, and she's one of the more popular. The rest? Nemuno is explicitly a loner and doesn't associate with anyone. Eternity is grouped with the fairies, who are pretty unpopular themselves outside Cirno, and Cirno is usually paired with Daiyousei. Narumi's only notable association is with Marisa, and her role (fellow magician living in the same forest) is pretty much filled by Alice already.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #169 on: January 23, 2018, 04:28:15 PM »
Eternity could easily join Team 9 if people bothered. Nemuno is part of the Youkai Mountain ecosystem, which is pretty interesting in its own right. Narumi can join Alice and have a trio. None of these are insurmountable obstacles to anyone interested in them, the problem is getting the fans interested when they're already set in their ways. Daiyousei is perhaps the most egregious example: fans essentially made her up from whole cloth in order to provide a countrbalance to Cirno. And now that Eternity fills that same role, they see no need for her, despite the fact that it was clearly a niche they wanted filled.

Helepolis

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #170 on: January 23, 2018, 04:31:44 PM »
Is there anything already known about the rest of the voting? Such as location, age, difficulty etc.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #171 on: January 23, 2018, 04:41:44 PM »
Questionnaire results aren't up yet. I'll be right on them when they do (if I'm awake).

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #172 on: January 23, 2018, 05:42:17 PM »
Eternity could easily join Team 9 if people bothered. Nemuno is part of the Youkai Mountain ecosystem, which is pretty interesting in its own right. Narumi can join Alice and have a trio. None of these are insurmountable obstacles to anyone interested in them, the problem is getting the fans interested when they're already set in their ways. Daiyousei is perhaps the most egregious example: fans essentially made her up from whole cloth in order to provide a countrbalance to Cirno. And now that Eternity fills that same role, they see no need for her, despite the fact that it was clearly a niche they wanted filled.
Yeah, they could join those groups, but those groups are already well-established for a long time. So using these new characters feel like using them for the sake of using them.

Helepolis

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #173 on: January 23, 2018, 07:37:42 PM »
Questionnaire results aren't up yet. I'll be right on them when they do (if I'm awake).
Aight. (And you're almost always awake. God knows how you maintain sanity (if there is any left :V))

Aya Reiko

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #174 on: January 23, 2018, 07:59:51 PM »
The problem with HFiFS is, as someone else in the internet said, that the only plot relevant character is Okina. Stage 1 to 4 are just random people you meet while you're wandering aimlessly. They're all the stage 1-2 bosses of other games. Satono and Mai are technically relevant, but they're basically just Okina's servants, and they don't have enough personality to stand out from their master.

And then, like said above, they lack a notable cast herd (character groups, basically). Aunn has the luck to be involved in Hakurei Shrine both in canon and fanon, and she's one of the more popular. The rest? Nemuno is explicitly a loner and doesn't associate with anyone. Eternity is grouped with the fairies, who are pretty unpopular themselves outside Cirno, and Cirno is usually paired with Daiyousei. Narumi's only notable association is with Marisa, and her role (fellow magician living in the same forest) is pretty much filled by Alice already.
I disagree on the fairy bit slightly.  Mainly because we recently got a new "fairy" that did prove relatively popular; Clownpiece. Clownpi also has the benefit of also being associated with Junko and Heca.  Either way, it kinda makes Eternity's problem similar to Narumi, she's filling a role that someone else has already filled.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #175 on: January 23, 2018, 09:16:39 PM »
Eternity could easily join Team 9 if people bothered. Nemuno is part of the Youkai Mountain ecosystem, which is pretty interesting in its own right. Narumi can join Alice and have a trio. None of these are insurmountable obstacles to anyone interested in them, the problem is getting the fans interested when they're already set in their ways. Daiyousei is perhaps the most egregious example: fans essentially made her up from whole cloth in order to provide a countrbalance to Cirno. And now that Eternity fills that same role, they see no need for her, despite the fact that it was clearly a niche they wanted filled.

This is why most of the fan works this fanbase makes suck. Memes over logical worldbuilding.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #176 on: January 23, 2018, 09:37:55 PM »
This is why most of the fan works this fanbase makes suck. Memes over logical worldbuilding.
That's willingfully ignoring most works that don't use memes as their base.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #177 on: January 24, 2018, 12:46:17 AM »
Yeah, they could join those groups, but those groups are already well-established for a long time. So using these new characters feel like using them for the sake of using them.

Not really. The three faeries were established for a long time and Clownpiece fit with the trio perfectly well. The fact she's from a different world and thus ignorant to a lot of things outside of it blends well with how ZUN brings up folklore, myths and legends. The fact she has a personality enough distinct from the other faeries also allows her addition to not be pointless either. Eternity popped up later in that series too and she could easily fit with either them or Team 9.

The only limit out there is fan creativity and good writing (although I suppose one can make some ideas work regardless of the quality of the writing). From what we can see, I think it's fair to say these things aren't issues. On the other hand, yeah, the idea of just doing that just for the sake of bringing together these characters would defeat the purpose of having fun writing those story, making drawings about it and all that. That's why we get a lot of stuff that covers familiar characters and settings because they're popular and thus people focuses on what they like which is perfectly fine. Still, there's nothing to prevent new team-ups, combination, etc. to work well if a person feels decides to do it.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2018, 12:53:37 AM »
I'd say the popularity of the th16 characters isn't that much different from th14 characters' results in their debut poll. The highest-placing character from th14 was Shinmyoumaru at 34, and she was similarly overshadowed by the boss of the fighting game that also came out at the time (with Kokoro placing at 15). I think both th14 and th16 suffer from the same problems where most of the characters are plot-irrelevant and thus not really all that interesting initially, compared to, say, Sagume or Junko where we got loads of backstory up front due to being tied to the plot. At least the th16 characters are better off by the fact that they're still on track to make appearances in future works and get more characterization then. (RIP smartphone-neck Sekibanki)

The "fans liking older characters over newer characters" is probably a factor, too, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing?

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #179 on: January 24, 2018, 01:26:43 AM »
I disagree on the fairy bit slightly.  Mainly because we recently got a new "fairy" that did prove relatively popular; Clownpiece. Clownpi also has the benefit of also being associated with Junko and Heca.  Either way, it kinda makes Eternity's problem similar to Narumi, she's filling a role that someone else has already filled.

I just want to say that Piece is a way cooler nickname for Clownpiece and it makes me sad that it doesn't seem to have stuck in the fandom despite being canon.