Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F  (Read 168051 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #480 on: May 24, 2018, 11:44:00 AM »
Spoiler:
Just found out that ***WINNER*** only respawns once, after defeating him a second time he didn't reappear (maybe have to wait till the next patch)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #481 on: May 24, 2018, 12:29:42 PM »
Spoiler:
Just found out that ***WINNER*** only respawns once, after defeating him a second time he didn't reappear (maybe have to wait till the next patch)

That was... unexpected.

Anyway, I'm considering the following team for
Spoiler:
***WINNER***
farming:

Renko [Strategist] / Ran [Transcendent] / Yukari [Transcendent] / Maribel [Transcendent]
Reimu [Strategist] / Tokiko [WINNER] / Miko [Transcendent] / Chen [Warrior]
Sanae [Strategist] / Nitori [Transcendent] / Yuuka [Dragon God] / Kanako [Murakumo]

This way I have a good pair for almost every element (to be used alongside Renko and Maribel):

FIR: Chen (Phoenix Spread Wings) + Ran (Ran doesn't rly provide extra Fire damage but can at least power up Chen with Concentration and use buffs, allowing Renko to regenerate MP)
CLD: Nitori (Kappa Illusion Waterfall) + Kanako (Beautiful Spring Like Suiga)
WND: Yukari (Hyperactive Flying Object) + Kanako (Virtue of Wind God) or Tokiko (Vorpal Blade)
NTR: Nitori (Extending Arm) + Yuuka (Flower Shot)
MYS: Yuuka (Master Spark) + ... something, depending on the situation. Possibly a mage like Kanako or Yukari on auto-attack
SPI: Miko (Tradition of Just Rewards) + Tokiko (Sword of Light). Possibly swapping Renko and Maribel for Sanae and Reimu for the Spirit boost and to power up Tokiko
DRK: Miko (Tradition of Just Rewards) + Maribel (Chaotic Quadruple Barrier). Swapping Reimu in too, in order to allow Maribel to go on the offense
PHY: Yukari (Shikigami +) + Ran (Soaring El Ozuno)

I considered alternative builds (especially over Yakumo family), but they tended to either miss an element or to have other issues. Earth Spirit Palace Party provides FIR and MYS nukes, for example, but I'm not fully convinced by Satori, and Koishi lacks Proof of Kinship which weakens her significantly. Eientei provides again MYS damage but tends to be pretty fragile. Other families lack Proof of Kinship, like Youkai Mountain Alliance and the Oni. Generally, the problem seems to be with FIR, CLD and MYS - other elements tend to be relatively easier to fill.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #482 on: May 24, 2018, 05:48:34 PM »
3peso posted some things on Twitter. Summarizing it, he expresses gratitude to all the people sending their thoughts, bug reports, and etc regarding the 1.104 update. He also wants to make a patch to fix problems with 1.104 before releasing 1.105. Then goes on to say that, when the party or enemy level exceeds 4 digits, some issues with balancing SPD arise, using Chen as an example. He explains that, although he spends a lot of time playtesting bosses with as many characters as he can, he may not properly envision what everyone is going to realistically be using each character for boss fights in practice, and as a result, he feels that some of the ideas he may have with balancing the characters may be the product of theorycrafting based on numbers. He ends by expressing that he would very much appreciate it if players could send their input via e-mail, Twitter replies, etc.

Seems like a good time to critically think about the game's balance and try to talk to him about it.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #483 on: May 24, 2018, 07:16:18 PM »
I dunno if it's what you and 3Peso mean, but one thing I've noticed on TL1 (and which I started to notice here in TL2 too, now that levels are getting high) is that speed and delays become progressively less important. Due to the way the action bar ticks, in fact, it really makes no difference, at higher levels, if your attack has, say, 7000 or 8500 delay most times, because in both cases it's gonna be just one tick to 10000+. This, by the way, also hurts the viability of characters, like Chen, whose entire strategy post-Awakening revolves around hitting multiple times before others act. As levels increase, you will in fact get less and less opportunities to fire off said quick attacks, and thus to increase Chen's damage output. If you also consider that said chars also tend to be frailer in the long run, it can really hurts their viability vis-?-vis bulkier stay-in attackers - who only get better as your level increases.

This, by the way, is an issue which really affects all "speedsters" - not just Chen, but also Marisa, Rin, Aya and so on. I honestly don't see many ways to correct it, though, other than maybe to make sure said chars have a use which does away with their speed. Chen, for example, does not need to abuse its gimmick in order to deal considerable damage, and very few FIR attackers compare to her dmg-wise. Similarly, even not counting her speed, Marisa remains a very powerful MYS attacker. Aya, on the other hand, feels a bit less solid - there's much more choice in terms of powerful WND attackers, like Suika, Iku, Kanako, or literally anything using the WINNER subclass.

A bit more subtly, though, this also affect chars whose viability depends on benefitting from (or enabling) fast switch ins. Rinnosuke, Keine, Kogasa, Suwako etc. all become progressively less impactful as levels arise and speed increases.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #484 on: May 24, 2018, 07:35:15 PM »
A more permanent solution would be to adjust the entire ATB system in such a way that it doesn't turn into turn-based system with enough SPD (for example, instead of using a fixed post-use delay regardless of how much ATB the character has at the turn, reduce it by a fixed amount instead). Not sure if he wants to change the game so radically though.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #485 on: May 24, 2018, 08:11:52 PM »
My idea would be to change SPD to be a stat simila to EVA (fixed amount per character, can only increase through skills, equipment and maybe gems), though its probably unviable due to how much it would change the system. I feel that any changes that help to permanently adress the SPD problem would end up being pretty big changes.

On another hand, I would say that Chen's skill should probably just be changed, the concept kinda encourages making your other characters to be as slow as possible to empower Chen, which I just feel is a bit wonky.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #486 on: May 24, 2018, 08:43:34 PM »
Here's how I'd do it. Change ATB ticks to be relative to the fastest person. On entering combat, check for fastest character among enemies and players whole team, accounting for gear but not skills/buffs, and set their ATB rate to, as an example, 200 per tick(lowest delay is 9820 I believe, which is Reisen's elixir with monk subclass). Everyone else has their ATB rate set relative to that based on their own speed. Speed buffs directly increase how much ATB you gain. 100% speed buff on the fastest person will make them gain 400 per tick while everyone else still gains the same amount. Might require dedicated switchers or rethinking what gear you equip though. For example, in my team, my fastest character is Aya with 5094 while my slowest is Alice with 1059. None of Alice's equips have speed bonus in them though which now becomes important for her since she has some staying power with all that evasion and relatively high hp compared to a lot of characters. However, this could change depending on how fast enemies are since they'll be similarly slow.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #487 on: May 24, 2018, 09:11:16 PM »
If it were my game, I'd have just cooled down on the leveling speeds and kept the level numbers, and therefore stats, lower across the board. I don't see any real good reason for having chunks of the plusdisk portion of the game jump by dozens or even hundreds of levels at a time, and I don't see a good reason for why the party needs to get 10-30 levelups in a dungeon dive or two. If the first 12+ hours of the game on the first 20 floors can contain itself through levels 1-100, then the next 20 floors can go to 300-400 tops, I say.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #488 on: May 24, 2018, 11:09:11 PM »
I dunno if it's what you and 3Peso mean, but one thing I've noticed on TL1 (and which I started to notice here in TL2 too, now that levels are getting high) is that speed and delays become progressively less important.

3peso didn't go into detail, but I believe that everything you said here is exactly what he had in mind in regards to balancing SPD. Like, I'm only low level 700 (with 800 library) atm, but Aya and Sanae are acting at the same time with a 9K SPD gap. It's only going to get more silly as the levels increase.

I'm going over what I want to bring up with 3peso, presently I've got, ordered as I think of them

-Fixing the way healing interacts with damage reducing skills. This is the problem with how damage reducing skills like Aya's Ability to Manipulate Wind or Quartz Charm's -20% damage reduction effect also reduce healing. In particular, Reimu's Exorcising Border + Armored Yin-Yang Orb, and Rumia's Demarcation + Realm of Eternal Darkness are instances where the character's own skill reduces their healing power. This does not affect % based heals such as Rinnosuke's Awakening spell card Precise Experience, only ones that scale off the user's ATK and/or MAG.
-Similarly, fixing how skills that boost elemental damage, such as Froggy Power and Blazing, boost the enemy's healing power, like with Photosynthesis and Regeneration.
-Akyuu's Awakening spell card Miare's Great Knowledge presently also has the effect of Protecting Art of Wisdom. Although this is likely a bug, I think it's very useful this way, and would like it to be made an intended effect of the spell card.
-Generally speaking, in the current state of Plus Disk, player DEF and MND has a small effect on reducing damage for most attacks against bosses. Because raising HP and affinities has a strong effect in increasing durability, this does not appear to cause any serious balance problems, but I would like to bring it to attention anyway due to the effects it has on character balance.
-Regarding the effectiveness of Keine's History Accumulation, I believe that the bonuses take too long to accumulate. In particular, for using Keine as an attacker, Sword is too weak to be worth accumulating. I would like to see the effect of the Awakening skill Ability to Create History adjusted so that it strengthens the effect of the Sword and Mirror counters.
-Regarding the effectiveness of Keine's skill Impervious Formation Change, by the time that it is acquired, ATB accumulation is already close to 700+ per tick, making the skill only slightly superior to Effective Formation Change. I would like to see some kind of improvement to the skill, such as giving improved delay to Keine after switching, an HP/MP recovery effect, or a stat buff effect.
-I would like to see Keine's spell cards Ancient History -Old History- and New History -Next History- have their maximum levels increased from 5 to 9.
-Regarding the subclass Dragon God's Power, it appears that its Elemental Ring passive skills are bugged and are nonfunctional.
-The boss Shadow Hata no Kokoro does not have a sprite.
-Koishi does not get Proof of Kinship from her Awakening.
-Iku's offensive abilities are somewhat lesser than that of other characters. I think raising her offensive spell card levels to 7 is sufficient. Another idea is to adjust the Awakening skill Orb of the Five Clawed Dragon to buff Iku's personal spell cards, but the loss of the MAG boost would reduce Iku's ability to use subclass spells like Start of Heavenly Demise.
-Regarding skills like Iku's Hisouten Guard and Mokou's With Keine, which boost DEF and MND, the effect of the skills tends to be low. I would like to see some kind of adjustment to make the skills more effective.
-The skills Maintenance and Prince Shotoku's Out-of-Place Artifact appear to be a little too strong. Perhaps they should be nerfed?
-When Mokou is defeated and her max HP is reduced to 1 by HP reduction effects, Resurrection puts her at 0 HP, which causes her to activate Resurrection again every time a character acts in battle (friend and foe) until she runs out of TP. I believe this is not how the skill should work, so I would like to see Resurrection set Mokou to a minimum of 1 HP.
-Miko's spell card Wishful Soul of Desire is very weak. I would like to see its healing power buffed.
-I would like to see some of the lower HP characters receive HP buffs. When facing powerful VOI attacks, especially ones following Space-Time Warp, it can be difficult for them to survive even if specifically set up to try to. This is especially true for Kaguya, who is weak to VOI. As the only stats to defend against VOI are HP and DEF/MND, and DEF/MND generally has a low effect in Plus Disk, HP becomes almost the sole defense against VOI. Alternatively, giving low HP characters some VOI resistance would mitigate this.
-Regarding Tenshi's skill Kusanagi's Former Owner, I would like to see the requirement of having a debuff or status removed. The Healer subclass skill Emergency Treatment is a 4% HP recovery effect per turn, so it does not seem to make sense that Tenshi's Kusanagi's Former Owner, which is 5% HP recovery per turn, has such a strict requirement.
-I would like to see Suwako's skill Earth Creation buffed. Presently, it is a 36% damage increase if Suwako is in the leftmost slot. Kanako's skill Sky Creation is a 32% damage increase if she is in the rightmost slot. The increased danger of the leftmost slot, and Suwako's general frailty, make it seem very strange that Earth Creation is only a 4% higher damage increase than Kanako's Sky Creation.
-Regarding the combination of Sanae's skills Youkai Buster, Power of the Living God, and Awakening skill Super Youkai Buster, I believe the overall damage increase is a little too high for Youkai bosses that are weak to SPI. There are many bosses like this, so it has a strong effect when combined with powerful SPI attacks from other characters. This may warrant a nerf.
-I would like to see Reisen's spell card Gas-Woven Orb receive a buffed PSN effect and lowered delay. It currently is not very useful, but I think that by buffing its PSN duration, and reducing the delay, it can be useful for PSN and activating Final Blow at the same time.
-Regarding Mystia's skill Soothing Type?, I would like to see it changed to have multiple levels, and restore 1 MP per level. As it currently is, it does not restore enough MP to be very useful. If it were to restore, say, 3 MP, it would make it more useful than the Magician subclass' spell card Magic Transfer, but allows Mystia to use another subclass and fulfill multiple roles.
-This is more "Because it would be interesting" than "Because it would be balanced", but I would like to see Rumia's Awakening skill All-covering Robe of Darkness buff her spell card Demarcation in some way.
-I would like to see the subclass spell card Iai Slash buffed. It is really weak even for a subclass spell card. Samidare Slash could use a small damage buff as well.
-I would like to see the Archmage's subclass spell cards Southern Cross and Execution buffed. The damage is too low for boss fights, and the MP cost is too high for random encounters. I would like for the damage to be increased, the MP cost to be reduced, or both.
-In general, ATK based subclass spell cards seem to be much more versatile and useful than MAG based subclass spell cards, for offensive purposes. For example, ATK has the subclass spells Explosive Flame Sword, Puncturing Thrust, Iron Mountain Charge, and Assassination Sword, and for characters with high ATK and DEF, Shield Bash can be strong too. But for MAG, only Aspiration Surge is strong for bosses, and the rest are debilitating effects or are unsuitable for bosses. This creates a bit of an imbalance in that characters that can use ATK spell cards effectively have more ways to strike a boss' weakness than characters that primarily use MAG spell cards. If Penetrator, Southern Cross, and Execution were more suitable for boss fights, then this issue could be alleviated. I believe that this is intentional though.
-I would like to see the Ninja subclass skills Lacquered Stones and Roughneck's Wisdom buffed. As they currently are, they are weaker than Transcendent's Enhanced Combat skill, despite the requirement of the target being afflicted by a status effect. Because the conditions for activation are more strict, I believe the effect should be stronger.
-I would like to see the subclasses Swordmaster and Archmage buffed. They are generally inferior to Warrior and Sorcerer and have little reason to be used. Their stats, while higher, do not compensate for the loss of the skills, and their unique subclass spells are not very useful outside of Swordmaster's Moon Shadow Flash. By buffing these subclasses, they can be brought up to a level of usefulness more comparable to Warrior and Sorcerer.

That's about everything I can think of that I feel confident on. Thought about bringing up buffing Shou's Bishamonten's Rage (increase the effect of each counter and lower the cap) and adjusting Nazrin's Wits of the Tiny Clever General (reduce the effect, but make it consistent instead of random), but I don't feel familiar enough with them to confidently say "Yes, this is how to make the character more balanced and appealing to use".

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #489 on: May 24, 2018, 11:29:21 PM »
On the topic of Maintenance and OOPART, I agree that Nitori may be a little too strong (which is ironic since she was already the strongest nuke by far in TL1), but Miko is overall balanced IMO, considering her rly low levelling rate. I also kinda agree with the buffing of Swordmaster/Archmage subclasses - right now, I literally find no reason to use them over Transcendent.

Also, Kokoro might need some buffing as well

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #490 on: May 24, 2018, 11:30:34 PM »
Do any characters have the skills to increase Wind damage and reduce Nature damage taken yet? If they aren't implemented it could be worth mentioning them in case 3peso forgot.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #491 on: May 25, 2018, 12:10:32 AM »
On the topic of Maintenance and OOPART, I agree that Nitori may be a little too strong (which is ironic since she was already the strongest nuke by far in TL1), but Miko is overall balanced IMO, considering her rly low levelling rate. I also kinda agree with the buffing of Swordmaster/Archmage subclasses - right now, I literally find no reason to use them over Transcendent.

Also, Kokoro might need some buffing as well

Hm yeah, looking at Miko again, I was thinking that she was really silly durable, but doing another comparison, she's not that much more durable than other characters, not enough to be excessive. Maybe just nerf Nitori a little then. I'm not going to get into that though, since I don't use her. Someone that does would be in a better position to be able to say what kind of nerf Nitori needs that would be fair to her and fair to the rest of the cast. Same deal with buffing Kokoro, I know even less about her.

Do any characters have the skills to increase Wind damage and reduce Nature damage taken yet? If they aren't implemented it could be worth mentioning them in case 3peso forgot.

Not yet, and nobody has the racial damage bonuses for Dragon or Oni type enemies either. I figured they were intentionally omitted, but I might as well bring it up.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #492 on: May 25, 2018, 12:50:28 AM »
Thing I've come up with:

-There still are a few spellcards that don't get stronger due to levels (Eirin's Hourai Elixir, Magician's Magic Circuit and partially Aya's Divine Grandson's Advent), this should probably be addressed.

-They fixed Fuuto's Plate counter but I'm pretty sure Sakuya's Jack the Ripper's Silver Knife is still reduced by auxiliary spells, there's also still the Hakkoro Charge mode bug.

-There's a bug related to max MP reducing skills, when your max MP gets reduced to less than 1, your stats/damage seems to increase for some reason (its very weird and it technically only happens on the Toruastory fight since he's the only one who has max MP reducing moves).

-Yuyuko could probably use a buff, while having the most powerful DTH spell in the game is certainly a big boon, the rest of her kit is very lackluster: Ticket to the Ageless Land is overall pretty weak given the condition of activation, Banquet of Regrets' buffs are pretty useless given that you generally only abuse DTH in random battles that finish too fast for them to serve any actual purpose (more MP regen would be much better), Hakugyokurou's Mistress's True Power is very niche and finally, having no damage increasing skills hurts her greatly (there's no point to her having decent defensive capabilities if she can't do significant damage at all). The fact that she's one of the slowest characters doesn't really help either.

-Ran's buffing capabilities are kinda poor at the moment, due to high Skill point costs, she can't use her gimmick effectively during most of the main game, while on the other hand ,during Plus Disk most fights are either damage races or don't last long enough for her buffs to stack up.

-Komachi's awakening is extremely lackluster as pointed out by the wiki itself.

-Regarding Satori's offensive capabilities, the 25% damage loss because of lv0 spellcards should probably see more compensation than just 36% more damage when hitting weaknesses.

-I feel like maybe Maintenance could be nerfed so that it only affects stats and not things like elemental affinities, status resistances, MP or MP regen and so on, this creates more weaknesses (Nitori in particular because she has overall low status resistances, increased MP regen with Cooling Down is also kinda ridiculous).

-The Sealing Club skill is a bit too strong, not only do Mari and Renko get the standard stat boost, they also get a relatively powerful HP/MP regen effect.

-Youkai Mountain Alliance should probably be changed to grant lower boosts but work from the backline, the 4 members have overall really bad synergy between them (Hina in particular completely clashes with the other 3 members who all have very bad debuff resistance, Aya also makes it harder for Hina to stack her SPD debuff. ). And Momiji generally works best in the backline due to how useful Instant Attack is.

-Overall, I think that rebalancing certain chance based skills would be nice. One of the main offenders is Mokou's Resurrection having a 1% chance to fail, its unnecessary and just really annoying when it happens in the worst possible moment, I would rather prefer it have a higher TP cost but 100% chance to work (at least at max level); other examples are Ran's Kokkuri San's Contract or Pathouli's High Speed Aria, nerfing the increased effects but making them less RNG would make building actual strategies much easier.

-Postgame could really be better balanced, high DEF/MND enemies are really a problem since they make a lot of the cast useless. It also has the weakest exploration since the extra floors are literally huge expanses of nothing, its an absolute chore to go through them.


Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #493 on: May 25, 2018, 01:09:26 AM »
-Yuyuko could probably use a buff, while having the most powerful DTH spell in the game is certainly a big boon, the rest of her kit is very lackluster: Ticket to the Ageless Land is overall pretty weak given the condition of activation, Banquet of Regrets' buffs are pretty useless given that you generally only abuse DTH in random battles that finish too fast for them to serve any actual purpose (more MP regen would be much better), Hakugyokurou's Mistress's True Power is very niche and finally, having no damage increasing skills hurts her greatly (there's no point to her having decent defensive capabilities if she can't do significant damage at all). The fact that she's one of the slowest characters doesn't really help either.

I've not tested her yet in the postgame, but in TL1 she was still one of the most powerful attackers in the game (by far the strongest offensive mage), because even if her stats were just above average, Flawless Nirvana had an absurd 900% MAG - 150% MND modifier. Now, TL2 Flawless Nirvana isn't THAT strong, but it still looks quite damn powerful, reaching almost 400% MAG (that's on par with Yuuka's Master Spark, to give you an idea). I would imagine that, as DEF/MND matters less at high levels, just like in TL1 - and with speed being less of an issue compared to the main game - Yuyuko should be able to dish out solid damage. Notably, though, TL2 Flawless Nirvana has a horrid 6% delay, whereas in TL1 it had a very respectable 40% which made up for Yuyuko's low speed.

Maybe, giving Flawless Nirvana a 40% delay in TL2 as well would be enough?

Quote
-Ran's buffing capabilities are kinda poor at the moment, due to high Skill point costs, she can't use her gimmick effectively during most of the main game, while on the other hand ,during Plus Disk most fights are either damage races or don't last long enough for her buffs to stack up.

This is true basically for patch 1.103 content, but the newest patch introduced a lot of bosses which, from my experience, were quite damn durable. Plus, unlike in TL1, Ran isn't limited to buffing. Her Soaring El Ozuno does quite solid damage with very little delay, and her mixed stats allow Ran to employ any of the unique subclasses to decent effect. I do agree that she's not that great in the early game, but by the time you get Yukari and complete the Yakumo family, Ran is more than good enough from my experience.

Quote
-I feel like maybe Maintenance could be nerfed so that it only affects stats and not things like elemental affinities, status resistances, MP or MP regen and so on, this creates more weaknesses (Nitori in particular because she has overall low status resistances, increased MP regen with Cooling Down is also kinda ridiculous).

I don't think Maintenance as a skill needs to be changed. It's more that Nitori has a ridiculous 625% ATK - 125% DEF nuke on top of it. I dunno if you tried Miko, but she's quite balanced - good, yes, but she doesn't dish out the same unreal numbers Nitori pulls. To be honest, all I did if I were 3peso would be lowering Super Scope to 400% ATK - 100% DEF.

Quote
-The Sealing Club skill is a bit too strong, not only do Mari and Renko get the standard stat boost, they also get a relatively powerful HP/MP regen effect.

I do agree that the Sealing Club is strong, but to be honest not enough to warrant a nerf IMO. I mean, both Renko and Maribel get quite a decent competition in terms of buffing tanks (Byakuren, Ran, Sanae) and magic users (more than I can count). While the MP regen is good, keep in mind that Renko in particular has really high MP consumption, and was probably balanced with that skill in mind.

Quote
-Youkai Mountain Alliance should probably be changed to grant lower boosts but work from the backline, the 4 members have overall really bad synergy between them (Hina in particular completely clashes with the other 3 members who all have very bad debuff resistance, Aya also makes it harder for Hina to stack her SPD debuff. ). And Momiji generally works best in the backline due to how useful Instant Attack is.

As I explained above, Instant Attack and switching in general just don't work in TL2, much like they stopped working well in TL1 once you got past lvl 500 or so. At those really high levels, most if not all your chars will be play with a "stay in" approach - which Momiji is quite good at, to be honest. If anything, I believe the main issue with the family is Hina, for the same reasons you pointed out. I really tried to make this family work, but Hina is always the one which doesn't fit.

Quote
-Postgame could really be better balanced, high DEF/MND enemies are really a problem since they make a lot of the cast useless. It also has the weakest exploration since the extra floors are literally huge expanses of nothing, its an absolute chore to go through them.

Which postgame are you talking about here? The original one I'm guessing? If so, yeah, it could probably use some rebalancing since it was built around the (now nerfed) Gambler subclass.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #494 on: May 25, 2018, 01:19:29 AM »
Hm yeah, looking at Miko again, I was thinking that she was really silly durable, but doing another comparison, she's not that much more durable than other characters, not enough to be excessive. Maybe just nerf Nitori a little then. I'm not going to get into that though, since I don't use her. Someone that does would be in a better position to be able to say what kind of nerf Nitori needs that would be fair to her and fair to the rest of the cast. Same deal with buffing Kokoro, I know even less about her.

As I explained while answering to Libra, the main problem with Nitori right now is that Super Scope is simply too powerful - to give you an idea, while fighting
Spoiler:
Maribel's three "demons", Aria Singing Toruastory and the other two
, Maribel was doing around 20M per Tradition of Just Rewards, while Nitori's Super Scope was dealing well over 50M. Frankly, I think having the skill modifier set at 400% ATK - 100% DEF would still preserve Nitori's spot as the best physical attacker in the game, without making her feel almost like a cheat on boss fights.

As for Kokoro, the problem is that she really doesn't work as good in practice as she might on paper. The mask buff is way too small. Her damage output without the mask self buff is actually pitiful, by the way (with Dragon Breath she was doing about as much dmg on enemies as Nitori with Kappa Waterfall, for crying out loud). Her own composite spell hits less hard than Reimu's Fantasy Seal, and has a bad delay to boot. Literally, her only relevant role is spamming Kagura Lion once you got the Mask power online - but even then, there are so many good physical sweepers in the game that she just isn't worth it.

What she prolly needs is either a significant buff of her spellcards, or some brand new skill (maybe a real synergy with Miko, rather than what she currently gets) to boost her average stats - which, by the way, stay average even in spite of her fast levelling rate because she lacks any kind of synergy or skill boost besides the X2.5 from her mask.

As a side note, having her Concentration skill set at 8500 delay, but regenerating only 2 MP, often feels more like a handicap than a help. Moreover, while Kokoro's damage output becomes decent only with her mask power activated, you generally don't want to waste a turn Concentrating right off the bat - especially on random fights (except maybe when she gets a free turn from Strategist/Monk, and her allies don't). I'm not sure how this one could be fixed, though.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #495 on: May 25, 2018, 02:34:06 AM »
A more permanent solution would be to adjust the entire ATB system in such a way that it doesn't turn into turn-based system with enough SPD (for example, instead of using a fixed post-use delay regardless of how much ATB the character has at the turn, reduce it by a fixed amount instead). Not sure if he wants to change the game so radically though.

I was surprised a long while back that that's not how the system worked. Maybe a test with said idea (have only a few attacks on a fast character have this trait as a test) would be a good way to test the waters for this?

I dunno if it's what you and 3Peso mean, but one thing I've noticed on TL1 (and which I started to notice here in TL2 too, now that levels are getting high) is that speed and delays become progressively less important. Due to the way the action bar ticks, in fact, it really makes no difference, at higher levels, if your attack has, say, 7000 or 8500 delay most times, because in both cases it's gonna be just one tick to 10000+. This, by the way, also hurts the viability of characters, like Chen, whose entire strategy post-Awakening revolves around hitting multiple times before others act. As levels increase, you will in fact get less and less opportunities to fire off said quick attacks, and thus to increase Chen's damage output. If you also consider that said chars also tend to be frailer in the long run, it can really hurts their viability vis-?-vis bulkier stay-in attackers - who only get better as your level increases.

This, by the way, is an issue which really affects all "speedsters" - not just Chen, but also Marisa, Rin, Aya and so on. I honestly don't see many ways to correct it, though, other than maybe to make sure said chars have a use which does away with their speed. Chen, for example, does not need to abuse its gimmick in order to deal considerable damage, and very few FIR attackers compare to her dmg-wise. Similarly, even not counting her speed, Marisa remains a very powerful MYS attacker. Aya, on the other hand, feels a bit less solid - there's much more choice in terms of powerful WND attackers, like Suika, Iku, Kanako, or literally anything using the WINNER subclass.

A bit more subtly, though, this also affect chars whose viability depends on benefitting from (or enabling) fast switch ins. Rinnosuke, Keine, Kogasa, Suwako etc. all become progressively less impactful as levels arise and speed increases.

A solution to the problem of viability could be made in the form of having SPD help in increasing a character's damage output directly(a percentage of SPD being used to increase ATK or MAG) or reduce all incoming damage based on a formula that uses SPD...

As for switchers, I think that the solution to that is to mainly add secondary effects when switching, like a buff or heal...

-stuff-

And while I agree with a good deal of that, I also have a lot of things to say about characters and subclasses, but I'll address one of these things since everyone is posting at breakneck speed.

Gambler, which has been nerfed into the dirt. My thought on fixing it...

Max Bet
Max SLv: 1
Skill Cost: 12
Double MP cost of all spells, but increase the power and effect of spellcards by 20% (damage, healing, buffing, debuff strength(not chance), ailment strength(not chance)).

Half as long, Twice as bright
Max SLv: 10
Skill Cost: 2
Spend (SLv) TP to Increase Damage of Offensive spells by (SLv * 2)%. This effect won't activate if you don't have enough TP.

Blood Price
Max SLv: 10
Skill Cost: 2
When casting an offensive spell, deal (SLv)% HP damage to yourself to Increase damage dealt by (SLv * 2)%. This effect won't activate if you don't have enough remaining HP.

Reckless Charge
Max SLv: 2
Skill Cost: 12
Receive (SLv * 50)% more damage, and your attacks ignore (SLv * 15)% of your enemies defenses.

-stuff-

Two things...

1. Satori. I would want to give her this.

The girl even evil spirits fear
Max SLv: 2
Skill Cost: 8
If Satori is on the front line while an enemy has a status ailment or stat down, that enemy will deal (SLv * 12)% less damage, receive (SLv * 12)% more damage, and will be (SLv * 12)% slower.

Dreadful Trauma
Max SLv: 1
Skill Cost: 10
If a enemy weakness is hit while Satori is on the front line, a medium strength TRR, SIL, and HVY ailment is inflicted on that enemy. The enemy's resistance to said ailments will affect it's effectiveness.

Satori needs more skills that rewards hitting a weakness, as well as exploit enemies that are hit with status ailments and debuffs. The first skill cripples foes that are weakened by status and debuffs, something that her family(Orin and Okuu) can do easily, especially Okuu with the debuff from Hell's Tokamak(over 110% chance and Sheer Force), while her second skill allows Satori herself to weaken a foe if a weakness is hit, which helps her meet the condition of her first skill.

2. Youkai Mountain Alliance. Specifically Hina.

No two ways about it. Hina should not be part of this team skill. As for a replacement skill for Hina...

Strength drawn from curses
Max SLv: 1
Skill Cost: 120
Doubles effect of Two Way Curse, and Increases max debuff on Hina to 75%

Powers up Two Way Curse(which you'll have active pretty much at all times) while increasing the strength of Hina's "debuffs are buffs to me" gimmick.

I'll end this post here, so I can explain other things in a timely manner over time...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #496 on: May 25, 2018, 02:54:02 AM »
This is true basically for patch 1.103 content, but the newest patch introduced a lot of bosses which, from my experience, were quite damn durable. Plus, unlike in TL1, Ran isn't limited to buffing. Her Soaring El Ozuno does quite solid damage with very little delay, and her mixed stats allow Ran to employ any of the unique subclasses to decent effect. I do agree that she's not that great in the early game, but by the time you get Yukari and complete the Yakumo family, Ran is more than good enough from my experience.

 I specifically mentioned her buffing abilities, I know she's more than decent enough as a damage dealer, but half of her skills are basically devoted to her "buffing the backline gimmick", having it only come into play in a very few Plus Disk fights just kinda feels disappointing.

I don't think Maintenance as a skill needs to be changed. It's more that Nitori has a ridiculous 625% ATK - 125% DEF nuke on top of it. I dunno if you tried Miko, but she's quite balanced - good, yes, but she doesn't dish out the same unreal numbers Nitori pulls. To be honest, all I did if I were 3peso would be lowering Super Scope to 400% ATK - 100% DEF.

As I explained while answering to Libra, the main problem with Nitori right now is that Super Scope is simply too powerful - to give you an idea, while fighting
Spoiler:
Maribel's three "demons", Aria Singing Toruastory and the other two
, Maribel was doing around 20M per Tradition of Just Rewards, while Nitori's Super Scope was dealing well over 50M. Frankly, I think having the skill modifier set at 400% ATK - 100% DEF would still preserve Nitori's spot as the best physical attacker in the game, without making her feel almost like a cheat on boss fights.

I agree that Miko is balanced, and Nitori and Renko should be the ones nerfed (to be fair, in that case the Sealing Club skill would stay as it is). However I don't think Super Scope is that broken, particularly when you consider the fact that it has double the delay when compared to Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall which also gets a 30% boost from her skill (for me it does the same damage as Yuuka's Master Spark which is not exactly very balanced) particularly in the later boss fights (
Spoiler:
***WINNER***, King of Chaos and Man of Fundoshi
), bosses have very high amounts of HP that no nuker can realistically blow through that easily, so spamming the low delay/cost Waterfall to take advantage of the Overheat boost is generally more efficient than blowing through all your MP in 4 attacks by spamming Super Scope.

Miko dealing 20m with a spell that has only a third of Nitori's Super Scope's multiplier (along with a third of the MP cost and half the delay) seems to be perfectly fine to me, plus Nitori has the Overheat boost. My opinion is that while very high SPD does invalidate certain skills, as of level 1000 even your fastest characters are only gonna get around 3000 ATB per tick which means that 0% delays still matter.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 07:18:03 AM by Libra »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #497 on: May 25, 2018, 03:27:59 AM »
I'm gonna go over everything later after writing up a rough draft for the e-mail I wanna send 3peso (after which I'll add some things from here, for those that don't want or can't send an e-mail themselves), but regarding Satori's damage, I decided to run a quick comparison with Iku's on a 30f mob, the level 811 divine crystal thingy. With no buffs whatsoever, same equips, library level, max MAG investment in levels, etc, I did two hits of Elekiter Dragon Palace on each enemy.

Level 695 Satori: 6.2m, 5.6m
Level 734 Iku: 5.5m, 5.9m

Not bad! With this setup, Satori has 465K HP, so she would inflict 232K damage with Extra Experience of Trauma, provided she was at max HP. It's not much, but it's still a few % more damage. Her damage is certainly competitive, for a character that can use nearly every spell card in the game. Something like Gathering and Dissipating from Suika would do far more damage, and Satori gets Chireiden + Proof of Kinship synergy. I do not believe that Satori's damage is lacking. If there's anything I would like changed about her, it's changing Extra Experience of Trauma to work off of her maximum HP, and not her current HP. That, and/or doubling its effect to be her full HP as damage, and not half.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 03:38:50 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #498 on: May 25, 2018, 04:32:55 AM »
I'm gonna go over everything later after writing up a rough draft for the e-mail I wanna send 3peso (after which I'll add some things from here, for those that don't want or can't send an e-mail themselves

There's probably some things I could think of, but the only thing I'm 100% on is the removal or fixing of the 9F bonus area chest that's *still* inaccessible. Even though it's just a War Mask of the Butcher, and even though it's so minor, it bothers me.

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #499 on: May 25, 2018, 07:43:49 AM »
In normal postgame Satori started looking pretty depressing, but in Plus Disk she's got more potential. Focus shifting off of def/mnd and onto HP saves her from being made of paper mache which was the worst thing. Her kit has some curious uses at very high levels, like using 25% max mp recov on swap with stuff like Yukari's Spiriting Away and massive max mp stacking. She can also do gimmick HP tank builds with big max mp for spamming low delay skills for burst damage here and there and copying support skills otherwise, although I have no idea if hp scaling makes that viable or not.

Her team skill is stronger than the other team skills, too, for atk/mag boosts, so she can enjoy her Actual Durability and just be a really versatile attacker without worrying about all her gimmick junk too much. Having backup for your buffs/heals is a nice thing on the side.

Re:Ran - En No Ozuno is OK, but it was actually way better in ThLaby 1, where it was just amazing. Yukari is really good so using Ran ain't bad, but Sorc's row atk enhancement is the only thing making her notably decent imo. Her weird buffs aren't really my thing.
Re:Yuyuko - The problem is her slow levels and expensive library means her MAG isn't actually all that high. Worse, NO damage boost passives mean Nirvana isn't nearly as strong as it looks either. Yuyuko has great spell formulas and good stat growths, but in practice her damage is... actually not exciting at all, and bosses do enjoy resisting both of her elements.
Re:Meiling - No one mentioned her and I'm surprised, holy crap she was already a juggernaut and now he made her free +40% speed passive work too??? She has massive hp and huge damage reduction passives so I can't imagine this changes in Plus Disk at -all-.

Reimu and Rumia reducing their own healing skills is pretty lame, tho'.

Quote
A bit more subtly, though, this also affect chars whose viability depends on benefitting from (or enabling) fast switch ins. Rinnosuke, Keine, Kogasa, Suwako etc. all become progressively less impactful as levels arise and speed increases.
While not wrong, the effect isn't too extreme until levels get absolutely dumb. Ticks may go faster, but you aren't getting a quarter of your ATB bar at once (well, maybe aya). In a world where characters regen ATB in 4 ticks on most moves, rinnosuke allowing you to regen ATB in a single tick still makes you several times faster. It does mean Keine's swap skill is just on-level with the others, though, and gimmick strats like Kogasa spamming instant attackers with her big regen passives do slowly become less effective...
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #500 on: May 25, 2018, 08:16:46 AM »
Regarding Satori's HP in the higher levels, at level 695 and library 800, with First-Aid Kit and 3x Medicine of Life, HP Second Boost, and Transcendent subclass, Satori has 1,646,352 HP, which gives her 820K damage on Extra Experience of Trauma. Last few bosses ranged from 60m to 125m HP. Would take Satori over 70 actions to inflict 60m damage with just Extra Experience of Trauma, which is why I think doubling its effect would be fair.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #501 on: May 25, 2018, 09:28:43 AM »
Comparison, between Yuyuko (bad growth rate and terrible library cost) and Maribel (good leveling rate and average library cost):

[attach=1]

I made sure to give them aproximately the same amount of experience (2830m) and money (50k), both have 20 MAG gems and mega boost. The difference is rather small (about 3%?), but unlike Yuyuko, who only has the 10% stat boost from her awakening, Maribel gets Grand Incantation, and a more powerful (albeit more restrictive) synergy skill ; she's also slightly faster (though it doesn't really make much of a difference really, about 200 more ATB per tick). Some other bulky mages with bad leveling rates (Yuuka and Kanako) have about the same MAG as Yuyuko too, but they get damage/stat boosting skills that far surpass Yuyuko's (Extra Attack, Tormenting Nature, Sky Creation, etc).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 09:30:18 AM by Libra »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #502 on: May 25, 2018, 10:35:55 AM »
Thanks for the comparison, Libra. I'll admit, I didn't expect Yuyuko to be this bad. She really could use some improvement. Maybe, raising her skill levels to 9, like Youmu, would suffice? I'm pretty sure that, going from a +25 to a +45%, Flawless Nirvana should deal reasonable damage at least. But I'm not sure even that would be enough, tbh.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #503 on: May 25, 2018, 11:41:38 AM »
Thanks for the comparison, Libra. I'll admit, I didn't expect Yuyuko to be this bad. She really could use some improvement. Maybe, raising her skill levels to 9, like Youmu, would suffice? I'm pretty sure that, going from a +25 to a +45%, Flawless Nirvana should deal reasonable damage at least. But I'm not sure even that would be enough, tbh.

Some sort of damage boost is better for Yuyuko's case. Increasing her spell levels would also increase their secondary effects, and honestly those DTH rates don't need even more of a buff. She's also got a lot of mostly dead skills so she wouldn't really miss some of them.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #504 on: May 25, 2018, 08:47:10 PM »
Yuyuko's Deadly Swallowtail Lance pierces defense pretty well and is fairly strong with Row Attack Enhance. Plus her damage bonus against ghosts works against a lot of Plus Disc enemies. I wouldn't be averse to her other aoe abilities becoming useful for anything besides inflicting DTH or her getting some better passive skills though.

EDIT:

IMO, Ran's buffs are better then you're giving them credit for, although her Awakening skill that buffs them should probably just work 100% of the time instead of relying on RNG. Its worth noting that the
Spoiler:
Ame-No-Murakumo
subclass buff absorby thing absorbs buffs from the back line. This means that one Banquet of General Gods will give that person a 100% ATK/MAG buff from turn 1, which is pretty dang useful. I do definitely agree that her skill costs are prohibitively high and that her Super-Fast Hard Arithmetic could stand to be 10 points.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 08:53:17 PM by Arcvasti »

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #505 on: May 25, 2018, 09:44:27 PM »
Swallowtail Lance is pretty OK, but when I tried to use her I ran into the issue of most bosses around that time resisting it. So annoying. It still isn't actually -impressive-, either, just, y'know, good enough. Yuyuko's good for mass DTH and just... passable in bosses.

Well, no. The Ghost damage bonus is a different matter. I do hear a lot of plus disk things qualify as ghosts. Can't go wrong with a ~40%(?) damage boost to the whole frontline.
This means that one Banquet of General Gods will give that person a 100% ATK/MAG buff from turn 1, which is pretty dang useful.
Alright, that's a pretty decent use, especially in shorter boss fights that you just rush down. In general, they're OK after awakening and with the massive MP totals you have in Plus Disk. I mean, when it triggers a 32% buff to the entire backline, that's definitely nice, and they're far more affordable to use in Plus. I wouldn't give her a party slot unless I was running Yakumo team, but Yukari is pretty good so that's not exactly a problem.

I consider them basically worthless until mega lategame, though XD So expensive, 16% on backlines is eh, and there's no shortage of powerful buffing characters in LoT2. Even in LoT1, I thought it was awesome to use in Winner where I literally just had Ran spend every turn of the entire fight buffing  to keep them maxed up (occasionally doing a switch), but totally eh before then.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #506 on: May 25, 2018, 10:25:11 PM »
Going over some of the things brought up,

-Nitori's issue, I feel, is that she's simply very strong overall, the problem does not lie specifically in Super Scope 3D. Although it is very strong, it is not so strong as to warrant a nerf. It's the same spell card formula as Jealousy of the Kind and Lovely, and while it has no status requirement, it costs 16 MP and has 0 delay. It's clearly a spell card intended to be highly damaging, but severely lacking in MP efficiency and hindered by the delay, and compared to Nitori's other options, it is exactly the case. Compared to Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps or Meiling's Mountain Breaker, I'm not sure Super Scope 3D is necessarily the best PHY attack in the game in the first place. More importantly, I feel, is that Nitori has Maintenance and Overheat. Even without Overheat, she's already one of the strongest ATK characters due to Maintenance. With Overheat, she can rapidly accumulate an enormous damage buff on her lower delay options like Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall or Murakumo Slash. As strong as Super Scope 3D is, I feel that Nitori is even stronger when using Overheat. So my proposal would be to lower Nitori's ATK stat, and thus lower her damage all around. Nitori has a good leveling rate, and with the way that Gems/Orbs and stat boosting skills work, in the later parts of the game, characters with higher leveling rates but lower base stats gain more from them than characters with lower leveling rates and higher base stats. I do not feel that Nitori's other stats should be nerfed, so reducing her leveling rate would be excessive. I also don't think nerfing Overheat is the solution, as other characters have it too. So I would leave it at nerfing her ATK growth rate.

-Added Magician's Magic Circuit and Eirin's Hourai Elixir as things that should receive a benefit from leveling up. I think that reducing the delay on Magic Circuit and either doing the same for Hourai Elixir or increasing the strength of the heal by 5% per level would be good ideas. For Aya's Divine Grandson's Advent, I think that changing the effect of leveling it up to have a SPD buff effect added might address this. I would prefer an MP cost or delay reduction, but I think this would be imbalanced.

-Address the issue with Sakuya's Awakening skill Jack the Ripper's Silver Knife being affected by auxiliary effects, and address the bug in Marisa's Awakening skill Hakkero Charge Mode.

-Investigate a bug involving maximum MP being reduced to less than 1 during battle.

-Yuyuko should receive an overall rebalance, and Ran should receive a buff to her buffing abilities.

-Komachi should receive a buff to her Awakening skill Shinigami's Scythe. This probably shouldn't be a significant buff though, as I believe the effect is being misunderstood. Taking for example, Narrow Confines of Avici, it would probably be thought of as (80% ATK + 400% MAG) - 100% T.MND, when it is actually ((80% ATK + 200% MAG) - 50% T.MND) * 2, that is to say, 160% ATK + 400% MAG.  This could still be safely improved without creating imbalance though.

-Nerf Sealing Club's HP regeneration effect. I think 3% per skill level is fair.

-Adjust the Awakening skills Youkai Mountain Alliance? and Four Deva of Mt. Ooe? so that they count backline members at half strength. Presently, these are the only synergy skills that affect more than 2 members that do not have an effect that counts the backline.

-Adjust skills dependent on random activation rates so that they are more consistent. Even if an effect is less powerful, as long as it is more consistent, it will be easier to use. 99% activation rates should be made 100%.

-Add a skill to Gambler that increases damage at the cost of HP.

-Add an effect to Hina's skill Role of Nagashi-bina that reverses the effect of stat buffs. Change the effect of Hina's Awakening skill Sorrows of Exiled Dolls so that status effects are transferred to Hina instead. Adjust the effect of Spinning More Than Usual to be more compatible with Role of Nagashi-bina.

-Address the item in 9f's expanded area that cannot be acquired.

-Rebalance Kokoro. Her damage is too low and the mask buffs are too weak. Change the effect of The Lost Emotion to reduce MP recovery by 1/2, and to have no MP recovery penalty with the Guardian skill Efficient Concentration.

Well, no. The Ghost damage bonus is a different matter. I do hear a lot of plus disk things qualify as ghosts. Can't go wrong with a ~40%(?) damage boost to the whole frontline.

It's a 20% damage increase, but the problem with that is that racial bonuses don't stack and Super Youkai Buster from Reimu/Sanae is approximately a 44% damage increase (1.2 * 1.2), and a large number of Touhou bosses are Youkai. A lot of them are Humans too, so Rumia gets her racial in too.

Interestingly, while all of the Shadow bosses were Ghosts, not all of the Abyss bosses are. So far, I've only seen
Spoiler:
Rumia
and
Spoiler:
Cirno
as the exceptions. There have been some inconsistencies between Shadow and Abyss boss racial categories besides that too. Also, Abyss Youmu had her Beast categorization removed from the 1.104 update, and Serpent of Chaos' racial categories changed from Flying + Inorganic to Flying + Oni + Divine. Strangely,
Spoiler:
Parsee
is categorized as Aquatic for both her Shadow and Abyss fights.

--

Regarding the subject of adjusting SPD in the game, I think it would be more efficient and effective to focus on making the system work as it currently is than changing it. For example, increasing Chen's durability and damage to compensate for her loss of speed advantage, or making it so that she can act twice per turn under certain conditions.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #507 on: May 25, 2018, 11:02:27 PM »
Well, Parsee is a Hashihime (lit. bridge princess) so her being aquatic does make sense.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #508 on: May 25, 2018, 11:27:10 PM »
Hm, maybe I'm thinking too literally then, as the other Aquatic Touhou bosses are Nitori (kappa), Iku (oarfish), and Suwako (frog), all of which are creatures that live in water specifically, while bridges are over water instead.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #509 on: May 26, 2018, 12:02:06 AM »
Actually, forget about the Sakuya thing, I just checked and it seems to have been fixed, even though it wasn't mentioned anywhere.