Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F  (Read 167894 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #540 on: May 26, 2018, 02:42:12 PM »
Sorry to be quite blunt but... have you actually read my post? I know it's pretty long, but nothing of what I said has anything to do with what you're seemingly answering to... I never claimed we should have no gimmick chars, nor that all chars should be equally good. What I talked about was about how some gimmicky chars are not very fun to play with (regardless of how good or bad they are), for reasons I've elaborated in my post.


I understood that. I was saying that where you say aren't fun/gimmicks hold them back from being great (ala Tokiko) I find an interesting sort of "challenge" in exploring how to make them work. Finding out "how to use" a character is a lot of the fun in this game for me, so having everyone kind of just work out of the box with suboptimal investment sounds like a downgrade to me on the whole. I feel that reworking gimmick characters to be more generally useful/more natural to play well could damage that sort of thought excercise and make each playthrough more alike one another.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #541 on: May 27, 2018, 02:20:18 AM »
Going over the non-Tenshi things that have been mentioned recently and adding things as I think of them,

-Adjust PAR to have a more substantial effect against higher SPD targets

-Increase the damage on Aya's spell card Wind God's Fan.

-Adjust the effect of the sub item Magic Sword "Chaos".  Presently, it creates some imbalance between ATK and MAG characters.

-Adjust the effect of the sub item Scourge. Presently, it is weaker than the other items that are created using the Iron Man's Headband material item, such as Tupsimati.

-Reduce the power of Parsee's spell card Jealousy of the Kind and Lovely and make its condition for use easier to meet. Improve the damage of Midnight Anathema Ritual.

-Reduce the delay of Tokiko's spell cards The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengeance, Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness, and The Future of Non-von Neumann Processors when not under the effect of Reading. Adjust the effect of the Awakening skill Tokiko's Thick Book Martial Arts to grant an ATK and DEF buff when not under the effect of Reading, and to grant a MAG and MND buff when under the effect of Reading. Add a MAG increasing effect to the skill Victim of Reimu and Marisa's Brutality.

-Adjust the effect of Shou's skill Bishamonten's Rage to be stronger and easier to activate. Adjust Aura of Justice's counter consumption to be more useful. Buff Dazzling Gold.

-Change Kokoro's Mask mechanic to be able to select masks when switching. Having to Concentrate multiple times in a row to change masks is too restrictive. Buff The Man of Qi Worries About the Earth.

-Regarding synergy skills such as Tenshi's Girl of Bhava-agra and Keine's With Mokou, there is a significant loss in damage if the player does not activate the skill, limiting character choices. Please adjust these characters so that they are stronger by themselves.

-Increase the damage of Youmu's spell card Slash of Eternity, and reduce the delay. Increase the damage of Slash Clearing the Six Senses.

Regarding Kokoro specifically, the only thing that comes to mind that makes her masks more usable is to have her Awakening grant spell cards that force a specific mask. Also, earlier I said I wanted Akyuu's Awakening spell card Miare's Great Knowledge to maintain the same effect as Protecting Art of Wisdom, but I think that this would be imbalanced (both for the game and for Akyuu's Protecting Art of Wisdom, which has worse delay and a higher MP cost) and that there would likely need to be some kind of compensation for it, such as increasing the delay or decreasing the Boost effect. It would be better to simply fix the bug and leave the spell card working as it was intended to.

Also, for Gambler, I think that adjusting the "increase damage done and taken" skill to have the "consume HP to increase damage" skill idea's effect is better than outright adding a new skill. By keeping Gambler at two skills, it's easier to balance, as there's less risk involved in the possibility of players getting too much damage by stacking all of its skills.

For Hina, it occurred to me that Two-Way Curse is a lot more difficult to activate on her than it should be because of Spinning More Than Usual, and the proposed adjustments I had in mind would have made it impossible to use Two-Way Curse and Spinning More Than Usual, because it would cover every status effect besides SHK and DTH. Because of that, I think Spinning More Than Usual should keep the status effect on Hina instead of removing it, and maybe negate the negative effects.

There were some other things but I lost track of them, I'll remember them later.

Ah yeah, one of them was to change Aspiration Surge's element from MYS to something else, in order to provide more coverage for MAG attackers. Not only do a lot of MAG attackers have MYS element spell cards, the basic attack command is MYS element for them, and Sorcerer powers it up pretty nicely. Although Aspiration Surge is still stronger than the powered up Magic Attack, I think it would be more useful if Aspiration Surge was a different element from MYS, such as SPI. In order to avoid redundancy with Archmage's spell cards, the only options are FIR, NTR, PHY, and SPI. PHY wouldn't make sense, and I think it shouldn't be FIR because of Explosive Flame Sword being its counterpart, so that leaves NTR or SPI. Of the two, SPI seems the best fit.

Example of Youmu's performance (spoilers):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EnElwzSIxE&t=20m0s  (still kinda overshadowed by Nitori though)

Regarding
Spoiler:
Fundoshi Man
, I'd like to see how Akyuu w/ Dragon God's Power handles it. I've been going all in on SPD for support due to Power of the Child of Miare's resurrection effect, but doing the same for offense, combining Super Incantation with a powerful spell card and Akyuu's excellent base MP + MP recovery...man, that should be something fun to try out.

For the run itself, I was initially thinking "wow Nitori really does need nerfing, look at how well she competes with Youmu at max Asura's Blood!", but then it occurred to me that Nitori has Magic Sword "Chaos", so her damage would probably be more reasonable without it. A small nerf should still be sufficient.

EDIT: Scratch the "make Tenshi and Keine better solo". I did a quick damage check for World Creation Press on Tenshi, with max buffs on everything a 20% ATK/MAG increase from Girl of Bhava-agra would be only 12% more damage compared to 28% as it currently is, although I think my DEF assumptions are too low at this point in the game, still using 1m. Regardless, my concern here is that by buffing Tenshi and nerfing Girl of Bhava-agra, Iku would become less effective at increasing Tenshi's damage than most damage increasing passives. I think it's better to have her more reliant on Iku specifically.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 03:06:03 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #542 on: May 27, 2018, 08:18:47 AM »
I don't know if Two-Way Curse works the same way, but Adversity works on Debuffs, I've noticed it via Remilia. http://puu.sh/AtM7Y/a55f47ffdc.jpg It's the only thing that could only be there with a Debuff on Remi as far as I know.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #543 on: May 27, 2018, 08:49:10 AM »
Two-Way Curse doesn't count debuffs regrettably.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #544 on: May 27, 2018, 09:15:56 AM »
-Reduce the power of Parsee's spell card Jealousy of the Kind and Lovely and make its condition for use easier to meet. Improve the damage of Midnight Anathema Ritual.
I think that Parsee is fine as she is, inflicting TRR is now relatively trivial in Plus Disk because of Reisen completely ignoring status resistances (20% of the time anyway), the actual problem so far is that a lot of bosses in Plus Disk seem to resist DRK (it was the opposite in the main game where basically everything was weak to DRK and resistant to MYS). Midnight Anatema Ritual is specifically a spellcard used to inflict statuses (and with Green Eyed Monster inflicts a 75000 TRR and 60000 SIL), so I think that its lower damage is justified.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #545 on: May 27, 2018, 09:31:40 AM »
Hmm, I was thinking that Jealousy of the Kind and Lovely was a little too powerful for neutral or DRK weak bosses, especially because it is multi-target, so it is devastating with Reisen's Lunatic Red Eyes. But I guess it's fine as it is due to absolutely requiring TRR to do anything. I'll scratch that then.

Would appreciate more input on game balance, I think I'll be able to write up everything so far within 2-3 more days. I'd like to make it as comprehensive as possible before sending it, while also omitting things that are superfluous or undesirable. Of course, everyone else is welcome to writing up their own messages to 3peso too!

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #546 on: May 27, 2018, 10:38:54 AM »
For reference, Parsee dealt about 70m with Jealousy of the Kind of Lovely to the
Spoiler:
Man of Fundoshi
with full buffs and Jealousy lv5, while Nitori did 93m with Super Scope 3D with full buffs, Overheat lv5 and one member of the Youkai Mountain Alliance out. I adjusted their gems, skills,etc but not their library levels and experience so Parsee should be able to deal a bit more technically (due to her very low library costs and the fact Nitori has gained a bit more experience). I feel like its pretty fair given that it has 30% less delay and only costs 6 MP (its also getting the 30% DRK boost which Nitori needs Yuugi for).

I feel like if a boss is weak to TRR and neutral to DRK, Parsee can probably deal more damage just by using Midnight Anatema Ritual and then spamming either Large Box and Small Box or a subclass spell the enemy is weak to to abuse the 64% extra damage without having to reapply TRR every other turn (then again, if you have Reisen as a dedicated status inflicter maybe its viable since 32% is not a very high delay anyway). That said, I would say Green Eyed Monster could be changed to increase the status strength by a flat amount instead of a %, Grudge Returning is technically your spell used to inflcit TRR to resistant enemies (that can't be inflicted by Midnight Anatema Ritual), and a 13500 resisted TRR actually ends up being somewhere around 5000-6000, which can run out before Parsee even gets her next turn if the boss is fast enough; something like a flat 10000-15000 strength increase may be a nice QoL change that makes Parsee a bit less reliant on Aya/Reisen.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #547 on: May 27, 2018, 11:05:22 AM »
EDIT: Scratch the "make Tenshi and Keine better solo". I did a quick damage check for World Creation Press on Tenshi, with max buffs on everything a 20% ATK/MAG increase from Girl of Bhava-agra would be only 12% more damage compared to 28% as it currently is, although I think my DEF assumptions are too low at this point in the game, still using 1m. Regardless, my concern here is that by buffing Tenshi and nerfing Girl of Bhava-agra, Iku would become less effective at increasing Tenshi's damage than most damage increasing passives. I think it's better to have her more reliant on Iku specifically.

3peso could always give all those chars an awakening skill which causes said synergies to work (at full or half effect) when the other char is in the back

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #548 on: May 27, 2018, 04:00:51 PM »
Quote
-Regarding the effectiveness of Keine's History Accumulation, I believe that the bonuses take too long to accumulate. In particular, for using Keine as an attacker, Sword is too weak to be worth accumulating. I would like to see the effect of the Awakening skill Ability to Create History adjusted so that it strengthens the effect of the Sword and Mirror counters.
No argument against that it takes awhile to build up, but the counter maxes at SIXTY PERCENT MORE ATTACK, which is already a pretty ridiculous amount... if you throw in Mokou and the base stat enhancers you'll have in plus, Keine can get a Magic stat higher than a fully tweaked Flan's attack in a full SDM party. Like... almost 30% more. It's somewhat offset by Flan selfbuffing her atk by 16% every turn she takes, but yeah. Keine's got solid affinities, 15.2 hp with awakening, and very cheap libary+fast levels. (TBH the levels/library probably offset the atk selfbuff already)

Keine with one of the special subclasses is no joke and Mokou's already an awesome tank option. If you give Keine Dragon God, you've even got Mokou's Blazing to boost it, and Keine's atk stat isn't bad; it's only 4 points lower than her mag- which isn't a lot after stat tweaking. (Although you might want Winner for better move variety) Considering that Keine might, y'know, want to self-buff her atk/mag sometimes, and that she has a large value off Mokou alone, the build isn't that unreasonable after you get specials subclasses for good moves.

That being said, it takes several turns to build up to that stat level so you do have to work for the insane values and it's reasonable I haven't heard of someone actually running Were-Keine nuker. (Plus, Flan's actually a lot more workable in plus disk for staying out, and I'm probably gonna get in on that myself, maybe even run the SDM apart from Patchy)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 04:16:20 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #549 on: May 27, 2018, 05:42:29 PM »
For reference, Parsee dealt about 70m with Jealousy of the Kind of Lovely to the
Spoiler:
Man of Fundoshi
with full buffs and Jealousy lv5, while Nitori did 93m with Super Scope 3D with full buffs, Overheat lv5 and one member of the Youkai Mountain Alliance out. I adjusted their gems, skills,etc but not their library levels and experience so Parsee should be able to deal a bit more technically (due to her very low library costs and the fact Nitori has gained a bit more experience). I feel like its pretty fair given that it has 30% less delay and only costs 6 MP (its also getting the 30% DRK boost which Nitori needs Yuugi for).

Hm, that level of damage does seem fair. Regarding Grudge Returning, I think simply boosting its base TRR would be easier to balance than adjusting Green-Eyed Monster, since it would be a less complicated adjustment that gets the same result.

3peso could always give all those chars an awakening skill which causes said synergies to work (at full or half effect) when the other char is in the back

Oh, like Tokiko. Durr. That is a really obvious solution that I totally overlooked. This is a good idea, yeah. Would be ideal to go half effect with it. Although it does still have the problem that you can get more damage by keeping the character in the back and using a higher damage increasing skill, I think it's acceptable.

No argument against that it takes awhile to build up, but the counter maxes at SIXTY PERCENT MORE ATTACK, which is already a pretty ridiculous amount... if you throw in Mokou and the base stat enhancers you'll have in plus, Keine can get a Magic stat higher than a fully tweaked Flan's attack in a full SDM party. Like... almost 30% more. It's somewhat offset by Flan selfbuffing her atk by 16% every turn she takes, but yeah. Keine's got solid affinities, 15.2 hp with awakening, and very cheap libary+fast levels. (TBH the levels/library probably offset the atk selfbuff already)

OK, yeah. Keine does double the damage Tenshi does with Dragon God's Breath on 1f mobs when she has max buffs, although that's without an equivalent to Mokou's Blazing for Tenshi. That should probably be left alone, against enemies with proper DEF/MND the damage difference should favor Keine even more. I was thinking that the cap would be adjusted to match a buff to the effect (I.E. 20% and cap of 3 or 15% and cap of 4), but with that level of firepower I think that Keine is fine with just buffs to her personal spells and an improvement in Impervious Formation Change. Although I still think it's impractical to cap her counter, at 1-3 it should be sufficient as it is.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #550 on: May 27, 2018, 06:23:13 PM »
Just for fun, Nitori vs Keine vs Patchouli (didn't adjust equipment or levels but Boosts and Gems are mega and 20/20 for all 3). All 3 have all the possible boosts they can get (Elementalist, Herbalist, synergies, Overheat/Grand Incantation/History Accumulation):
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 06:25:58 PM by Libra »

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #551 on: May 27, 2018, 08:05:25 PM »
Two-Way Curse doesn't count debuffs regrettably.
Then why in blazes does Hina have the skill, then? She can't reliably inflict status ailments on herself, only debuffs, and Two-Way Curse would be perfect for Hina if it would activate from those debuffs.

As for random talks about Patchy, I think that she needs more HP. The HP Boosting awakening skill isn't enough, that skill needs 4 levels instead of 2(base hp would hit 10.8 rather than 8.8 ) so she can at least take a hit from magic...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Xarizzar

  • RPG fan
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #552 on: May 27, 2018, 09:42:30 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlXDJBhmiKs (spoilers)

And luck (?) + some AI research strikes yet again! Does anybody else get lucky on their boss fights like that? I mean I did some risky stuff, like leaving Patchouli in the front row for the entirety of the battle, but still. I'd like to think I'm not this bad at this game. Also for some reason my Flandre doesn't deal all that much damage.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #553 on: May 27, 2018, 09:52:16 PM »
I mean, none of the characters that can learn Two-Way Curse can inflict themselves with status effects ( they even all have very good TRR resistance), so its more of a thematic choice. The actual purpose is similar to Kasen's Adversity in giving you a powerful effect in the event that you actually get affected by a status (nevermind the fact that all lasting statuses except TRR and HVY are pretty crippling even with the bonuses you get from the skill). Hina is probably the one who can use it the less, since not only does she have Spinning More than Usual (which, to be fair, I have never used because it clashes with her debuff mechanic) but Sorrow of Exiled Dolls halfs the duration of statuses once she gets her turn anyway. As Lonely suggested, having Spinning More than Usual just eliminate the negative effects but keep the statuses on her would make the skill actually usable, Sorrow of Exiled Dolls could then have Hina absorb half of the other frontliners statuses on her turn or smt.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #554 on: May 27, 2018, 09:53:11 PM »
Adversity really shouldn't work with debuffs, considering the original wording of all these skills use the same term (状態異常 which is abnormal status), and I would've expected all of them to not count debuffs. It's probably an oversight on Adversity's side, really.

Two-way curse's distribution suggests that it was more of a flavor skill than a practical one. The characters it's given to are associated with unpleasant things (Parsee's manipulation of jealousy, Hina's association with misfortune, and Orin's association with vengeful spirits).


Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #555 on: May 27, 2018, 10:01:46 PM »
Then why in blazes does Hina have the skill, then? She can't reliably inflict status ailments on herself, only debuffs, and Two-Way Curse would be perfect for Hina if it would activate from those debuffs.

As for random talks about Patchy, I think that she needs more HP. The HP Boosting awakening skill isn't enough, that skill needs 4 levels instead of 2(base hp would hit 10.8 rather than 8.8 ) so she can at least take a hit from magic...

Well, it's not like Parsee and Rin can inflict anything on themselves at all, but they have Two-Way Curse too. I'm thinking 3peso wanted to make them benefit from getting status'd by enemies, but I think it would be more effective if there was a way to self-inflict status here. It's pretty easy to self-debuff, so those might be counted separately to prevent Two-Way Curse from being too easy to use. Think an effect like that on Toxicologist would work. As it currently is, Toxicologist is kinda bad outside of HVY application with an Instant Attack character or something.

I agree with Patchouli, she and other low HP characters need defensive buffs. I was thinking Kaguya could get Resurrection via Awakening (she's slow and has low base TP, so it's not like it's a free pass for letting her get hit), Chen could get a way to buff her EVA, Suwako's Awakening skill Chytrid Resistance could buff her HP, etc.

Back when I was prepping for Serpent of Chaos, I made a spreadsheet to calculate character stats so that I could get an idea of how each character stood for stats. I haven't redone it for the current levels, but this is how things looked at Reimu 540, library 600, max HP Gems/Orbs, HP Second Boost, and 3x MGL for equipment, with any additional HP boosts the character had applied (such as Patchouli and Yuyuko's Awakening). No level up bonuses were applied, this is the minimum HP under such a setup. Rinnosuke had his ordinary High Boost skills since the Giga Boosts costs an exorbitant amount of SP.

Renko: 632K

Nitori: 490K
Komachi: 483K
Miko: 478K

Meiling: 436K
Mamizou: 428K
Yuyuko: 426K
Remilia: 424K
Flandre: 410K
Youmu: 407K
Satori: 407K

Momiji: 396K
Byakuren: 396K
Rinnosuke: 394K
Wriggle: 392K
Kasen: 386K
Yuugi: 386K
Tenshi: 385K
Keine: 383K
Shou: 383K
Mokou: 382K
Sakuya: 378K
Eirin: 376K
Ran: 375K
Kanako: 371K
Suika: 368K
Yuuka: 368K
Iku: 366K
Kokoro: 366K
Tokiko: 366K
Kogasa: 361K
Sanae: 357K
Alice: 356K
Aya: 354K

Reimu: 349K
Reisen: 349K
Nazrin: 347K
Eiki: 347K
Mystia: 346K
Maribel: 338K
Minoriko: 332K
Yukari: 328K
Futo: 328K
Utsuho: 326K
Koishi: 326K
Hina: 318K
Cirno: 315K
Rumia: 306K

Rin: 296K
Akyuu: 284K
Chen: 283K
Parsee: 281K
Marisa: 275K
Suwako: 263K
Patchouli: 257K

Kaguya: 231K

I think that the characters below the 320K range in this could use an HP buff, but Chen, Marisa, Suwako, Patchouli, and Kaguya are the main ones I think should be addressed. Parsee is exempt because she has 200 VOI resistance. I think I'll specify improvements to Suwako, Patchouli, and Kaguya, in addition to the whole "DEF and MND have a low effect in Plus Disk" and "VOI attacks are too dangerous to low base HP characters" thing.

I also added a bit about Satori's Spell Card Recollection about how, if she uses Aya's Divine Grandson's Advent, she sets the target's ATB to 0, due to how Slv works with it. I think that this could double as buffing Spell Card Recollection to be level 1 instead of 0, but all I said was that I wanted it to be fixed, it doesn't really matter how it's done as long as it's fixed.

Also, I did some testing on 30f mobs regarding the strength of Tenshi's synergy skill with Iku and concluded she was getting 30% more damage from Iku, so I think I'll just not say anything about it and Keine's synergy skill with Mokou after all.

I've also been thinking that skills that require a character to be defeated (either the skill owner or other party members) are unreasonably difficult to use and should see some changes in conditions. For example, Reimu and Sanae's skills could be treated as "If skill holder has less than x% HP, Concentrate does Y effect in addition to the usual effect", Cirno's Awakening could have a TP reducing resurrection skill so that Gale Scattered Blizzard Petals is easier to use, stuff like that. I think all I will ask on the matter is to make the skills easier to use though.

Also for some reason my Flandre doesn't deal all that much damage.

It's probably because her offensive buffs were just ATK+16%. Since Dragon God's Breath scales off both ATK and MAG and is reduced by both DEF and MND, it is very important to maximize your ATK + MAG to make the most of its damage. Also, as a general thing, you still want to focus on one stat for level up bonuses since you'll get a higher combined ATK + MAG that way. It's not like it's (ATK - DEF) + (MAG - MND), but (ATK + MAG) - (DEF + MND). A similar principle applies to equipment, in that the higher combination of +x% ATK/MAG won't necessarily mean higher stats than a higher % increase to a character's higher offensive stat. I'm not sure how significant this might've been for your damage output though. It's definitely the lack of high ATK/MAG buffs that prevented Flandre from wrecking.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 12:04:17 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #556 on: May 27, 2018, 10:32:31 PM »
Its worth noting that Chen can buff her EVA through Ran's Ability to use Shikigamis, though I would say making it work regardless of Chen being on the front or back would be a nice QoL change that also fits with Ran's "buffing the backline" thematic.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #557 on: May 28, 2018, 03:02:05 AM »
The Robe of Lords item is seemingly bugged. Instead of providing an increase of +128 Wind affinity, it multiplies the base affinity of the character by 1.28 and then adds the result. For example Aya gains +256 Wind affinity while Rinnosuke only gains +102. I first saw it discovered by a streamer named Yggdrasiface so credit to them.

Edit to correct a typo.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #558 on: May 28, 2018, 03:22:29 AM »
Huh, what a peculiar bug. Adding that to the list of bugs to report then, checked and confirmed it personally as well. tbh that's a really cool effect though.

IRUN

  • Sin Sack
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #559 on: May 28, 2018, 05:39:05 AM »
If anyone wants it, here's a NG+ save file with all characters, subclasses and Awakenings unlocked.
I walk one step, and I?m visiting a shrine
I continue two steps, and I?m spirited away
I tread three steps, and I?m playing god
I arrive with four steps, and ****

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #560 on: May 28, 2018, 02:19:14 PM »
Hi guys
What did you do after beating Green and Red boss on 29F? Straight went to Deformed Trio?
The thing is, I beat Green and Red at average level of 560, so I'd be dead if I went to other 29F boss, but I am stuck at 29F anyway since everything on 30F is locked
Am I missing something or I have to grind at least 250 levels

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #561 on: May 28, 2018, 03:08:41 PM »
You can either go trough the Infinity Corridor to get more Greater Jewels of Awakening or defeat the Kedama Goddess if you haven't (this lets you pass through one of the rocks on f30). There's also bf11 if you haven't explored it yet. You eventually will have to grind levels though, and its recommended you do it on f30, since there's an area where a metal slime-type enemy spawns.

Serela

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  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #562 on: May 28, 2018, 04:23:15 PM »
Just for fun, Nitori vs Keine vs Patchouli (didn't adjust equipment or levels but Boosts and Gems are mega and 20/20 for all 3). All 3 have all the possible boosts they can get (Elementalist, Herbalist, synergies, Overheat/Grand Incantation/History Accumulation):
When you consider that Patchouli's Grand Incantation makes that effectively the damage of two turns, it's kind of telling that Keine still notably outdamaged her... although, using a Composite attack with Patchouli makes it a little off for obvious reasons. I imagine you wanted to limit variance, though. Also, lol Nitori. Broke as shit and it's not even Super Scope. Base stat increases+maintennance gets dumb, looking forward to Miko in endgame- she doesn't need a superscope-type move to be absurd, I'm just excited about stuff like doubled affinity increase.

I'd also be curious about seeing that analysis on Akyuu, because how good is Super Incantation really? You'd need to factor in that her library costs are vastly cheaper, though.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #563 on: May 28, 2018, 04:42:19 PM »
Super Incantation is really good. Akyuu with Start of Heavenly Demise wrecks basically everything in a few hits. I assume that the other high-power subclass attacks would work about as well.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #564 on: May 28, 2018, 04:53:48 PM »
I'd also be curious about seeing that analysis on Akyuu, because how good is Super Incantation really? You'd need to factor in that her library costs are vastly cheaper, though.

Did a quick test on 1f mobs, Akyuu does about double the amount of damage as Tenshi with max DEF/MND and a 50% Boost (but no Keystones of Spirit). She has 122 MP with the setup I tried her with (max MP Orbs/Gems, MP Second Boost, Tokugawa Statue, 2x Tupsimati), which, when factoring in Concentrate and Phenomenal Force of Will, allows her to use Dragon God's Breath 16 times before being unable to afford it, assuming no other form of MP recovery is involved like Magic Circuit. It's probably safe to ditch Tokugawa Statue for Divine Falchion for even more damage.

This was at same library level, so if you want to factor in library costs, Akyuu would have an even larger advantage. And because Tupsimati gives an HP increase and Scourge does not, Akyuu actually ends up being more durable than Tenshi would with 2x Scourge, even without factoring that she has Power of the Child of Miare and 200 VOI resistance. Thanks to Dragon God's Power's affinity increases, she ends up with fairly balanced affinities overall outside of PHY, and she has 135 resistance to all status except PSN, PAR, and SIL (45 each).

Really need to try this out in practice to see how it works, haven't been playing due to trying to write that e-mail. Should finish that up later today unless there are a lot of things that get mentioned here.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #565 on: May 28, 2018, 05:21:26 PM »
The problem is, double damage is "average damage" because Super Incantation requires two turns. Still, it's good if anything has a desperation phase. A good time to actually break out elementalist, too.

If she's actually -durable-, it also means she's potentially an offensive Mokou (resurrecting nuker) with some upsides and good support moves to use here and there. And that would be pretty considerable.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #566 on: May 28, 2018, 05:51:16 PM »
Well, considering this is Tenshi with a 50% Boost and max DEF/MND, I wouldn't call the damage average, but the big appeal for me with Akyuu is that she has twice as much base MP as Tenshi does (60 compared to 28) and is really MP efficient thanks to Concentrate + Phenomenal Force of Will. It's actually for spamming Dragon God's Breath that I'm interested in, as opposed to burst damage. If Dragon God's Power's skills worked properly, there would be an additional +1 MP recovery per turn, and Akyuu would be able to restore 10 MP between every Dragon God's Breath.

The specific use I had in mind would have been for
Spoiler:
Fundoshi Man
because of the multiple phases and changing weaknesses that all correspond to Dragon God's Breath's elements. If I were to try to solo it all with Tenshi, then she would run out of MP rapidly, but Akyuu can do similar damage for a much longer period of time. Dragon God's Breath is a powerful spell card, but its weakness is its horrible MP efficiency. This weakness is mitigated by Akyuu and other characters with high MP efficiency, like those with Grand Incantation or Rapid Charge, or Satori's Small MP Recovery, and it becomes something that can be used somewhat freely.

For comparison, under the setup I had for Tenshi, she would have 78 MP and only be able to use Dragon God's Breath 5 times before being unable to meet the cost, compared to Akyuu's 16. That's a really high level of sustainability for such a strong spell card.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #567 on: May 28, 2018, 05:58:10 PM »
Plus if she's somewhat durable and has her mega-surrection, she's likely to stay up. You also have a good point in that, among other things, there was 50% boost on Tenshi and Akyuu doesn't need to maintain. Hmm, yeah, that sounds pretty neat. I might want to try it out myself when I get there.

...oof, which reminds me, time to do b2f. The random fights on b1f didn't really get any easier, and b2f is so much worse... x.x;; Should I just run away?? I'm not used to having this much trouble. My team is lv~180.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #568 on: May 28, 2018, 06:18:45 PM »
Are you buffing your attackers? It wasn't until the basement floors that I found this to be a defining factor in mobbing. The level 200+ enemies will remain a problem for a while longer, but you can clean up the trash this way at least. The higher level enemies also drop really good items for where they appear. The Gate of Pandemonium (disgusting mouth thing) drops an item that gives +256% ATK and several other smaller effects for example. The book enemy on B2f drops a MAG+240% item, these are the highest ATK/MAG boosting items available by B2f. Acquiring some of these might help out with wiping out the enemy encounters as well.

The Plus Disk enemy encounters certainly require more preparation than the main game and sometimes involve more TP loss or even defeated characters, but with some adjustments to how you fight them they should be more manageable than they currently are. I think B1-2f represent a bit of a difficulty spike as well, more specifically B1f, I didn't have any similar problems afterwards in Plus Disk. The level difference in the weakest and strongest enemies remains about a static 50 or so even in 30f (level range of 766-820 compared to B1f's 162-218), and the equipment available is better than it was when first challenging B1f, especially once you get access to the Infinite Corridor. So it should get easier as you continue to proceed through Plus Disk.

Serela

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  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #569 on: May 28, 2018, 06:28:38 PM »
That's encouraging, but unfortunately my party's buffing setup is... a little lacking. My main support involves Enhancer Renko, Byakuren, and Rinnosuke. Charge is very expensive and Byakuren has to charge up first, and Rinnosuke isn't really buff central. Now that Byakuren doesn't dole out 100% buffs anymore and monopolize the buffing scene, maybe I need to mix in more buff strength...? Hmmm.

Renko could pick up the enhancer atk/mag buff for something more ease-of-use, I guess.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore