Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F  (Read 167419 times)

Thata no Guykoro

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #300 on: April 19, 2018, 05:08:17 PM »
I mean to be fair, he's pulled disappearing acts like this before and then come back. He did it during Plus Disc's development, so I wouldn't entirely write off the patch.

...But yeah, until/unless he goes active on twitter again I'd say don't expect anything.

nav'

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #301 on: April 21, 2018, 07:16:52 AM »
Spoiler:
Someone told me it should be possible to one-shot Ame-no-Murakumo and I decided to give it a try myself. Probably old news, but it was a fun little exercise nonetheless.
Рабинович глядит на плакат ?Ленин умер, но дело его живет!?
? уж лучше бы о он жил!

Tangrelle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #302 on: April 26, 2018, 02:03:51 AM »
So I just beat the big bad guy at the 26th floor in Plus Disk, and I was hoping it would let me do a New Game + with all the plus disk characters, but it looks like I'm straight out of luck for that! It still only lets me go up to Mari and Renko. Is there some other requirement I gotta beat to be able to play with the others? And if it seems like a long way to go, is there a save file or somesuch I can use to start with all the characters? I tried looking for one, but I can't seem to find it.

Thanks for any help!

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #303 on: April 27, 2018, 02:49:24 PM »
So I just beat the big bad guy at the 26th floor in Plus Disk, and I was hoping it would let me do a New Game + with all the plus disk characters, but it looks like I'm straight out of luck for that! It still only lets me go up to Mari and Renko. Is there some other requirement I gotta beat to be able to play with the others? And if it seems like a long way to go, is there a save file or somesuch I can use to start with all the characters? I tried looking for one, but I can't seem to find it.

Thanks for any help!

If you have one file with all characters unlocked, you can copy the PCF01.ngd file of that folder onto the fresh save. I can upload one but not sure which site to host the file.

On another note, I started playing LoT1 then LoT2 back to back since last October. Read up from the 3rd thread up until present along the way. What a ride.

Tangrelle

  • This is my book! It's still all weird though.
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #304 on: April 30, 2018, 11:13:23 PM »
If you have one file with all characters unlocked, you can copy the PCF01.ngd file of that folder onto the fresh save. I can upload one but not sure which site to host the file.

On another note, I started playing LoT1 then LoT2 back to back since last October. Read up from the 3rd thread up until present along the way. What a ride.

Ah, I see! It's good to know that's how to do it.

...Unfortunately while trying to mess around in the game before I got this answer I saved over my plus disk file with all the characters ;_;

If you could maybe upload that file - or anyone else for that matter - I would really appreciate it! Mediafire, dropbox, just attaching it here, whatever works! I'd just really like to be able to start off with Kokoro and maybe Koishi in the squad and the thought of playing through the whole game again just to do that really demotivates me.

Edit: And I suppose just to put some gameplay related question in here, has anyone actually managed to rack Shou's rage counters high enough for them to matter in a fight? They seem cute to me, but it felt like by the time I got a relevant number to work with the boss was pretty much wasted already, or I just never wanted her on the frontline of the fight to begin with.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 11:15:27 PM by Tangrelle »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #305 on: May 01, 2018, 01:31:38 AM »
Yeah, Shou is kind of a sad character. Her rage counter would be great against some bosses in the main game, but she doesn't have the skill points to be good at that point. And by the Plus Disk, battles are over quickly enough that she can only get like five stacks. There might be a sweet spot in the postgame where she has skill points and boss fights drag on forever, but I'm not convinced that the rest of her skillset is good enough for her to be worth bringing.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #306 on: May 01, 2018, 01:50:06 AM »
Shou would have been potentially good in mega postgame content where there would inevitably be super long megabosses, but who knows if we'll ever get it, so.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #307 on: May 02, 2018, 06:29:23 AM »
Think it's most effective to think of Bishamonten's Rage as a secondary damage booster and focus primarily on her synergy skill with Rinnosuke and maybe Byakuren (for higher buff baselines + HP regen), if you would specifically want to use Shou. Easy 24% ATK/MAG increase + 100% buff baselines (until Byakuren's Sutra skills get nerfed for real, they're currently still 14%), which is about a 33% overall damage increase compared to normal (Strategist assumed of course), if you buffed Shou every turn (impractical, so in practice it's a bit better). This gives Shou reasonable damage, and it's not like Bishamonten's Rage stops existing. It's just that instead of looking at it like "I'm only at 3 out of a max of 100 counters", it's "free 9% more ATK".

I think the primary issue with Bishamonten's Rage is that, with such enormous potential in increasing damage, one would be inclined to feel that they "need" to stack it a lot to fully take advantage of it, when it's totally unnecessary to do so. It's really more like an improved Eye for an Eye, in that it's a convenient damage boost on an action (taking damage) that would occur whether or not the character had the skill. Even 3-5 counters is enough of an ATK increase to solidify it as a useful skill.

Besides that, Shredder and Refresh (the buff wiping attacks) reset Bishamonten's Rage, and chances are good the super bosses would utilize either of those moves, or another method to wipe buffs. I wouldn't count on being able to get a high counter on it against endgame bosses.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #308 on: May 02, 2018, 09:22:42 AM »
Ah, I see! It's good to know that's how to do it.

...Unfortunately while trying to mess around in the game before I got this answer I saved over my plus disk file with all the characters ;_;

If you could maybe upload that file - or anyone else for that matter - I would really appreciate it! Mediafire, dropbox, just attaching it here, whatever works! I'd just really like to be able to start off with Kokoro and maybe Koishi in the squad and the thought of playing through the whole game again just to do that really demotivates me.

Here you go.

ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #309 on: May 02, 2018, 10:53:55 AM »
Is there a save for Laby 1 that's NG+ with all BP requirements pre-obtained?
I know I got a NG+ file a while ago that doesn't have the BP done and I think I would've gotten it from the OP so I dunno if someone made one elsewhere or anything but it'd be handy.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #310 on: May 02, 2018, 01:04:38 PM »
Think it's most effective to think of Bishamonten's Rage as a secondary damage booster and focus primarily on her synergy skill with Rinnosuke and maybe Byakuren
The problem with this is that Shou really isn't a particularly good character without accounting for Rage. She's got a farming move, and she's certainly passable enough with her synergies, but she's not actually... noteworthy for much of anything, unless there's time for Rage to build up.
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nyttyn

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #311 on: May 02, 2018, 03:03:20 PM »
Shou still has massive burnout issues, because her rage counter increases way too slowly. It'd be slow if it was 3% per turn regardless, but combined with needing to be taking damage, a lackluster set of affinities, shit base MP and shit MP recovery, a moderate library difficulty and highish level up difficulty, and good but not stellar base stats, and...

Really Shou's just a disaster all around. She is, in virtually every way, just a Worse Suika.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #312 on: May 02, 2018, 04:40:56 PM »
Shou certainly is a fairly average character due to the plethora of superior PHY attackers like Nitori, Yuugi, Meiling, and Tokiko, but it's not quite as bad as it's being made out to be. With her Rinnosuke synergy and Byakuren buff copies putting her buffs at 100%, her ATK is on par with Tenshi's with her Iku synergy, and she requires no external buffs to maintain that. Her biggest personal failing is that Hungry Tiger is simply not a strong spell card for her stats. It has the same damage formula as Tokiko's Youkai Yakuza Kick, but has 4000 delay compared to 6600, and Shou's ATK is far lower. With her Rinnosuke synergy skill, her ATK is a little bit lower than Tokiko's ATK at base, and Tokiko's looking at 20% more ATK with her Reimu/Marisa synergy and 25% more ATK post-Awakening, giving her about 50% more ATK to work with. Bishamonten's Rage can only do so much here when Shou's surrounded by these PHY attacking giants, more problematic is what she's working with in terms of stats and spells in the first place.

The MP thing at least is mostly a non-issue. Her default max MP is 30, but MP Orbs/Gems increase it by 10-20, and MP Boost skills increase it by a further 10-20, 30 in the super late parts of the endgame. She's presently looking at about 60-70 MP, which is enough for 20-23 Hungry Tiger uses without any external means of MP recovery like post-Awakening Sanae or Murakumo's Blessing. If her Byakuren Sutra copy skill worked with her post-Awakening MP recovery Sutra, then she would have effectively unlimited uses, but it doesn't do that unfortunately.

At any rate, Shou's MP is not that low. I mean, it's the same as Iku's and higher than Tenshi's (28), and honestly, most PHY attackers have the same or worse MP than she does. Her MP recovery certainly is bad, but with all the different methods to restore MP that are preferable to using Concentrate, it generally doesn't make a difference.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #313 on: May 02, 2018, 08:58:13 PM »
I think you guys are misunderstanding Shou, somewhat. As in, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I don't think she was never meant to be a competitive attacker, on par with other PHY-oriented attackers like Yuugi or Nitori. Personally, I see Shou more as a variation of Nazrin - i.e. a char focused on improving your exp/gold acquisition rate. Nobody really expects Nazrin to dish out competitive damage on bosses, and you similarly shouldn't expect Shou to do so. In fact, it's almost serendipitous that both Rinnosuke and Nazrin (chars Shou synergizes with) also happen to have "grinding skills" of their own. Sure, you might wonder what Bishamonten Counter is there for, then... but Shou would be far from the only char in this game to have somewhat counterproductive or unfocused abilities.

In short, if you're using Shou, you shouldn't be using her for Bishamonten Counter or her various offensive abilities. You should use her for Radiant Treasure Gun (and her other grind bonuses).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #314 on: May 02, 2018, 09:10:29 PM »
I would be inclined to agree if post-Awakening Nazrin didn't have silly high damage. Like, she's actually a pretty strong attacker, particularly for CLD where there's little competition.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #315 on: May 03, 2018, 09:05:21 AM »
I would be inclined to agree if post-Awakening Nazrin didn't have silly high damage. Like, she's actually a pretty strong attacker, particularly for CLD where there's little competition.

It's true that there're not many CLD attackers (compared, say, to SPI or DRK attackers), but unfortunately for Nazrin, Nitori is better in almost every way with its Kappa Waterfall, thanks to a CLD boosting ability and Maintenance. The Moriya group also provides extremely strong CLD attacks, both alone and even moreso when fielded together. Heck, even Miko with Southern Cross prolly outdamages Nazrin, thanks to Miko's own item doubling ability. And unlike Nazrin, none of these characters rely on RNG for their damage output.

I mean, Nazrin is definitely usable, but still far from a top tier damage dealer. If she lacked those grinding abilities, I doubt she'd deserve any consideration at all.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #316 on: May 03, 2018, 09:15:08 PM »
Ran a quick damage test on this as an example, using Iku 540 as the EXP base and library levels at 600/60, with 3x MGL + Tokugawa for equipment, and ATK/MAG Second Boost, with Murakumo's Blessing as the subclass. Nazrin has her Byakuren buff copy skill for 100% buff baseline and her base MAG increasing skill, while Nitori has her +30% CLD damage skill and Maintenance, both have Murakumo's Blessing's damage boosting skill active. I only did one test for each, but I can provide math for the Small Kedama and higher DEF/MND examples as well, if this is insufficient as an example.

Nazrin

[attach=1][attach=2]

Nitori

[attach=3][attach=4]

Nazrin's Awakening roughly doubles her damage on average (I forgot how to calculate Extra Attack's average increase, so I'm just taking the EN wiki on its word for that), and she can benefit from Nitori's 30% CLD boost if they're both on the frontline, so her CLD damage potential considerably exceeds Nitori's on average. Problem is that, yeah, it's RNG-centric and therefore unreliable, but just going off the averages, Nazrin can be pretty silly.

And this isn't getting into what she can do with Start of Heavenly Demise.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 09:20:34 PM by LonelyGaruga »

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #317 on: May 04, 2018, 01:03:21 AM »
I think that the main issue is that enemies with at least decent MND will likely lower the damage on Nazrin's CLD spell more than a decent DEF would do the same on Nitori's CLD spell. Also, Nitori has Overheating to boost her damage as well, so there's that to consider.

Honestly, I think that Nazrin would of benefited more from Piercing Attack and Instant Attack than from Extra Attack and Effective Formation Switch. The former to deal consistent damage(especially for the CLD spell) and the latter to synergize with her buff copy skill and to cut out the delay between switching in and attacking, but that's just me nitpicking and all that. Apologies for that.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #318 on: May 04, 2018, 02:02:03 AM »
Does endless corridor stop at 100f?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #319 on: May 04, 2018, 03:03:23 AM »
That is a thing, but it's not considerable. I'll take 1m DEF/MND as an example to math it out. It's been a long time since I did any math for this game, so I'm going to go through each step for ease of reading on both the reader and my own side.

Damage = (Attack Power - T.Defense Power) * Multiplier * (100 / T.Affinity) * Random Number (any number between 0.9 and 1.1)

Affinity will be 100, random number will be 1.

Nazrin:

Attack Power = MAG * MAG Buff * Spell MAG Modifier

MAG = 531,047
MAG buff = 100% (2x)
Nazrin Pendulum = 1.1x

Attack Power = 531,047 * 2 * 1.1 = 1,168,303

T.Defense Power = T.MND * Spell MND Modifier

T.MND = 1,000,000
Nazrin Pendulum = 0.5x

T.Defense Power = 1,000,000 * 0.5 = 500,000

Multipliers

Nazrin Pendulum = 2.2x
Level 5 Spell Card = 1.2x
Strategist Buff = 1.1x
Murakumo's Blessing = 1.16x * 1.16x * 1.16x

Total Multiplier = 2.2 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 (it's easier to write this than the result)

Damage = (1,168,303 - 500,000) * 2.2 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 = 3,029,311

Factoring in Extra Attack + Wits of the Tiny Clever General, there's roughly a 95% damage increase on average, which puts it at 5,907,156

Nitori:

Attack Power = ATK * ATK Buff * Spell ATK Modifier

ATK = 748,725
ATK Buff = 86% (1.86x)
Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall = 1.1x

Attack Power = 748,725 * 1.86 * 1.1 = 1,531,891

T.Defense Power = T.ATK * Spell DEF Modifier

T.ATK = 1,000,000
Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall = 0.5x

T.Defense Power = 1,000,000 * 0.5 = 500,000

Multipliers

Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall = 1.9x
Level 5 Spell Card = 1.2x
Ability to Manipulate Water = 1.3x
Strategist Buff = 1.1x
Murakumo's Blessing = 1.16x * 1.16x * 1.16x

Total Multiplier = 1.9 * 1.2 * 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16

Damage = (1,531,891 - 500,000) * 1.9 * 1.2 * 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 = 5,251,443

Nazrin: 5,907,156
Nitori: 5,251,443

The damage gap is a lot lower, but Nazrin is still higher by a decent margin (about 12%), and can benefit from more multipliers, since she can get Nitori's CLD damage boost, while Nitori is already using it. Overheating is a thing, but you have to avoid switching out Nitori in order to use it, and with 4,000 delay, that slows her down compared to switching with an Instant Attack character and does not necessarily increase DPS.

Though, the point I'm trying to convey with all of this is that Nazrin is an amazing attacker, based on RNG averages at least. She doesn't necessarily have to be better than Nitori to be good at attacking. Maybe I should have used WND as an example instead...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #320 on: May 04, 2018, 03:50:34 AM »
Nitori is still the superior attacker because !!Maintenance!!, but that's because Nitori is ALWAYS the superior attacker. Nazrin's damage is pretty terrible before Awakening though, without question. She's probably not unusable before then, but she's definitely not competitive with Patchouli or Kanoko, who are the other big magical CLD attackers.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #321 on: May 04, 2018, 04:46:26 AM »
Well, here's a different example then.

[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
[attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]

This is with Awakening for Iku, but only regular MAG Boost. Nazrin actually has about the same amount of MAG as Iku with the Byakuren Sutra duplication, the differences in their Start of Heavenly Demise are mostly due to damage variance.

Iku: 588,423 * 1.86 = 1,094,466
Nazrin: 531,047 * 2 = 1,062,094

Iku has 3% more MAG, admittedly she'd have a few % more with MAG Second Boost. It's difficult to afford it right now though. Still, with Nazrin getting a good 85% or so more damage via Awakening, it's a no contest.

oh wait, I'm an idiot, Iku does have MAG Second Boost, it's MP Second Boost she didn't have.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 05:30:43 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #322 on: May 04, 2018, 04:58:26 PM »
Unless I'm misreading, you're assuming 100% buff for Nazrin, but not for Nitori. Why? I mean, with a Renko + Maribel defensive core you can buff Nitori to 100% easily, and Strategist buff means you're gonna keep it at 70%+ buff consistently. Are you sure that, factoring this, Nazrin still surpasses Nitori in damage output? If so, I'd be sincerely surprised.

EDIT: Also, while in an ideal world you'd have 3X MGL on everybody, in the real world you simply don't (or, well, you can finish the existing game WAY before then). And if you discount MGL, there're many more good items for physical attackers (such as Scourge or Ringil) than for special attackers (who mostly use Flower Blade and Blue Rod)

EDIT2: Just checked - yeah you assumed 86% Atk buff, which is fair. But as you noticed yourself, she is very RNG-reliant. Now, if this were, say, World of Warcraft or some other game where you throw out 200+ attacks on the same boss per battle, you could work off % averages like you do. But given how fast TH battles are, on average (even boss battles), I'm not sure you can rely just as much on average results.

Furthermore, there are still a few things which you did not seem to consider.
1) Nitori requires a lot less support than Nazrin. In other words, Nitori can be slotted into just about any team and it will perform amazingly. As for Nazrin, she pretty much requires Byakuren, otherwise Extra Attack will chew away her own buffs in no time (I think?).
2) Nitori's Waterfall attacks all, not just one target, and also carries a DEF debuff (in fact, many other CLD attacks from other chars, such as Cirno, Suwako, and Kanako, also do)
3) Nitori is significantly bulkier than Nazrin, thanks to Maintenance - not only in terms of sheer stats but also in terms of ailments and resistances
4) If you are into postgame content, "Switch and nuke" playstyle is a lot less good than in the main-game because, due to how action frames work. I noticed this most clearly in TH1, where by the time you reach around lvl 3000 each frame ticks for 2000+ ATB, but you can notice it even in TH2's lategame
5) Perhaps most importantly, Nitori doesn't require to be awakened, in order to achieve such a level of power. And there are quite a few chars who can reach truly unreal levels of power when awakened (such as Maribel and Miko). With only 7 gems available, I'm not sure I'd want to use one on Nazrin (perhaps, if the game were complete and we had infinite awakening gems... but then again, we'd also get items which would increase Maintenance's margin even more).

As you hinted, Nazrin prolly got less competition as a WND attacker - though even there, Awakened Suika could end up being more powerful, and Iku also carries more utility. And both Iku and Suika, I think, are still bulkier than Nazrin.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Ofc, in the end, the differences are such that, except for a few outliers (like Nitori's absurd Megawatt Gun), most chars and attacks are quite balanced, so you won't see major offensive differences between each other - that's a testament to how more balanced (at least in this sense) the game is compared to TH1 (where the gulf between good and bad chars was absolutely huge).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 05:21:52 PM by elminster1372 »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #323 on: May 04, 2018, 08:18:06 PM »
Well, if you're counting Scourge and Ringil (Ringil isn't very strong anyway though), you should count Tupsimati too, which is MP+6, HP/DEF/MND+300%, MAG+800%, MYS/SPI/DRK+99. That's way better than Scourge's ATK+800%, DEF+400%, PHY+100.

I also wasn't trying to suggest a switching attacker playstyle, but switching a character in with Instant Attack, and then switching Nitori/Nazrin back in, to set their ATB to 7500. This would be unnecessary for Nazrin if her ATB is 2000+ per tick, as Nazrin Pendulum has 5500 delay, but Nitori's Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall has 4000 delay, so this would still speed her up. Though with 2000+ ATB ticks, staying in for the sake of Overheating stacking would probably be preferable. And of course, Nazrin would need to be Awakened...but that was the premise of what I was saying in the first place, that Nazrin becomes a strong attacker post-Awakening. So it seems kind of silly to bring it up as a detrimental point.

The numbered items don't really have to do with Nazrin's damage output either, aside from bringing up that it is RNG reliant, which I acknowledge is its primary flaw. I, personally, prefer to assume that RNG will always be unfavorable, so I would not value Nazrin's potential. But that doesn't change that, on average, Nazrin's damage output is excellent, and she has 4 different elements that she can competently use to strike weaknesses (PHY/WND/CLD/SPI [Start of Heavenly Demise]). How to look at RNG is up to the player, I believe, but Nazrin can certainly be expected to be a primary attacking character, despite the whole item farming angle of her character.

Though regardless, I would like to address the numbered items anyway.

1) While Nitori can act as a solo character, Nazrin relying on Byakuren is not necessarily a negative characteristic, since you would want to optimize your damage output, and Byakuren helps Nazrin do that. Nitori would need a character to buff her regardless, and she would continually need buff maintenance, while Byakuren can do anything on the frontline and Nazrin will be at 100% buffs at all times simply because Byakuren is present. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Nitori's solo ability allows her to contribute to Nazrin, since Nitori holds the +30% CLD boosting skill, which makes Nitori the strongest damage boosting character available to put on the frontline with Nazrin. One could have Byakuren buffing Nitori, and the two of them attacking with their CLD spells. This can be further increased with Akyuu's 50% Boost spell card from her Awakening and potentially the 16% weakness boosting skill.
2) While Nitori's Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall is a multi-target spell card, so far the majority of bosses in Plus Disk's endgame are single targets, and Nazrin is still superior for single-targets granted ordinary RNG. Though this also makes Nitori superior for random encounters, Nazrin has her item farming skills (then again, Nitori does too, post-Awakening) and Extra Steps to take turns after defeating an enemy. The DEF debuff on it also doesn't add much damage, though it does add some, that is true.
3) Nitori is a lot bulkier, but due to how Maintenance works, she's losing out on more damage by taking up affinity/status boosting equipment, so that's not a 100% pro. Still, this is the biggest advantage Nitori has as a bulky attacker, even if it doesn't have to do with how much damage Nazrin can do. For what it's worth, Nazrin has 14% HP regen that Nitori does not have, and 150 VOI resistance that Nitori can never increase with any kind of equipment.

4) and 5) were covered already so I'll skip those.

Regarding the comparison with Awakening Suika, keep in mind that Nazrin's Rare Metal Detector has 6800 delay, so she attacks more rapidly than Suika does with Instant Attack switching, and Suika needs 100% HP to get the 20% damage boost, so she requires more maintenance from multi-target attacks. Though honestly, with how much Iku can demolish the game, that Nazrin can be favorably compared with her speaks enough for her damage output. Suika's damage bonuses are more practical to utilize in practice than on paper, so I'm not going to try to calculate how much stronger (if she is stronger) at WND damage she is compared to Nazrin, but Nazrin is still a very strong WND attacker regardless, whether she's #1 or #2.

As for the comparison with Iku and Suika's bulk, I haven't checked Suika, but Nazrin is fine compared to Iku. As you can see in the stat pictures, Iku and Nazrin have nearly the same amount of HP under equal circumstances (Iku has 5% more HP), but their DEF is almost identical. Iku has much higher MND (about 22.5% more), and she can gain 40% more DEF/MND with her Tenshi synergy skill, but DEF/MND is nearly worthless in Plus Disk. Like I calculated for the Serpent of Chaos' damage, the difference between its Direct Attack and Rasetsu Fist on max HP Tenshi was about 5% more damage, and that was over 100K DEF. Besides that, Nazrin has 100% DEF/MND buffs at all times with Byakuren's presence on the field, 14% HP regen, 150 VOI resistance, and Eyes that Perceive Reality to ignore enemy ATK/MAG buffs (something most Corridor bosses use, though idk if the special ones like Abyss Reimu and Abyss Rinnosuke are ignored by it or not). Her affinities are also superior. She's looking at two affinities at 76 for weaknesses, while Iku has 3 affinities at 75 and one at 90. The 150 VOI resistance is especially important here, as VOI attacks are always the most dangerous in the game, and Nazrin takes 33% less damage from them.

Also, I forgot about this, but Maintenance doesn't work with the Divine Falchion, which is kind of important. It's still stronger than the Tokugawa Statue, but Nitori loses more stats by using it than Nazrin does. She's still overall bulkier and everything, this just affects the degree of bulk and how much more damage Nazrin can do in comparison.

--

I somewhat feel that the meaning in bringing up Nazrin's damage output was a bit lost in the direction this topic went in, as it was about Shou's inferiority as an attacker. Maybe, instead of bringing up that Nazrin is pretty much competitive (with RNG) with top tier characters, I should have simply pointed out that Nazrin far surpasses Shou in terms of PHY damage. Regardless though, my underlying point was that Shou's farming related skills can't be used to justify her having lowish damage output, as Nazrin is very much competitive with high level damage dealers, and totally outclasses Shou at PHY damage. Even pre-Awakening Nazrin has superior PHY damage output to Shou with her Rinnosuke synergy skill.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #324 on: May 05, 2018, 06:34:30 PM »
Well, if you're counting Scourge and Ringil (Ringil isn't very strong anyway though), you should count Tupsimati too, which is MP+6, HP/DEF/MND+300%, MAG+800%, MYS/SPI/DRK+99. That's way better than Scourge's ATK+800%, DEF+400%, PHY+100.

You are right, but Tupsimati is extremely rare, whereas Scourge (at least from my experience) is fairly more common. But, examples aside, my point was more general - for any given "tier" of items, ATK-based items tend to be better (and there are more of them to choose from) than MAG-based ones, at least for attackers. So, for the sake of playthrough, physical attackers do tend to be slightly easier to equip (again, from my experience).

As for the rest... yeah, my bad - I mean, I do get what you are trying to say here. Though while it's true that Shou might be lacking, his combined "grinding" bonuses are still quite impressive, so I still think she's far from a worthless char - well, except from the fact that TH2 post-game hardly needs grinding in the first place to be completed (except maybe items from chests in the corridor, which Shou doesn't rly help with anyway). Now, if only we could use Shou in TH1... :-)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #325 on: May 05, 2018, 06:46:47 PM »
It's a little bit of a topic change, but regarding Tupsimati's rarity, I personally acquired 10 via random treasure in the Infinite Corridor, and 9 Scourge (+1 from the 30f boss). Meanwhile I have 5 Medicine of Life, which should be equally rare.

I'm not totally sure how the Infinite Corridor's treasures work, but I've noticed "patterns" where I would frequently get the same batch of items throughout an entire load, which matches with what I've observed with the enemy spawns as well. Only a somewhat diverse array of them, but still never encountering at least 1/3rd of the possible enemies throughout several hours of playing. If this is the case, then that would explain why some items are far more common than others during a trip to the Infinite Corridor. Treasure drop rates may be altered on a per load basis, or even have some items locked out entirely.

This would explain any considerable differences observed in item rarity, but it's still only a personal observation. Still, it might be useful information, or at least something to have in mind.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #326 on: May 06, 2018, 08:58:10 PM »
So I bought and played THL2 back when it first released but only up until beating the last boss, never did any post game stuff. Now that english patch and plus disk exist I decided to replay it and go for gold this time. What's all this I hear about Plus Disk being unfinished? Does it just stop in the middle of the game or something? Am I wasting my time replaying this game?

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #327 on: May 06, 2018, 10:13:53 PM »
It's supposed to go up to 30F and down to B11F, but right now it only goes to 27F and B10F respectively, so there are chunks of stuff that we don't have yet. On the other hand, plus disk in LoT2 does have its own storyline which IS properly completed between 26F and B7F so you can't say that it's incomplete either.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #328 on: May 07, 2018, 01:01:17 PM »
Guys, I need your advice on team building. Right now, I'm using the following team:

Row 1: Sanae [Sorcerer] / Reimu [Strategist] / Miko [Transcendent] / Futo [Transcendent]
Row 2: Renko [Strategist] / Iku [Sorcerer] / Maribel [Sorcerer] / Tenshi [Transcendent]
Row 3: Kasen [Strategist] / Yuugi [Transcendent] / Suika [Transcendent] / Nitori [Transcendent]

The idea is obviously to take advantage of as many synergies as possible to deal massive damage on bosses and random encounters alike. However, I was wondering if I'd actually improve the team by replacing Iku and Tenshi with Kogasa and Parsee. Sure, Tenshi and Iku are good, but I already have plenty of SPI-based attackers (Miko especially), NAT-based attackers (Yuugi and Suika), and WND-based attackers (Kasen and Suika). Ofc, I don't lack DRK-based damage either (Kasen, Maribel, Futo, eventually Miko as well), but Kogasa and Parsee seem to bring a lot more to the table for Maribel especially (DRK-based boost to her Chaotic Quadruple Border), while Maribel excels at "enabling" those two with her own TRR-inducing attack. And, while I've not worked out all the math yet, it seems that Kogasa and Parsee (especially Parsee) have multipliers which blow Iku's and Tenshi's ones out of the water completely.

Ofc, as others noted, DRK is not as good in Plus Disk content as it is in the main game... but does it really matter when you're working with a 625% ATK - 125% DEF nuke, powered by stat buffs, Final Blow (32%, 64% if awakened), Flames of Jealousy (another 30%), and Jealousy Manipulation (I dunno the math for this one)?

--------------------------------------

EDIT: Note, the original plan for awakenings was to awaken, in order:

Maribel, Miko, Futo, Yuugi, Suika, Kasen, Tenshi

With the new set up, though, I'd prolly go with the following awakening order:

Maribel, Miko, Kogasa, Parsee, Futo, Yuugi, Suika

As for subclasses, I'd prolly give Transcendent to both Kogasa and Parsee (maybe Warrior on Kogasa to power up Drizzling Large Raindrops? Doesn't sound worth it, tbh). I have no idea of who to give Murakumo's Blessing to, though (possibly Yuugi for the MP regeneration and an extra SPI physical attack)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 01:06:20 PM by elminster1372 »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F
« Reply #329 on: May 07, 2018, 05:49:11 PM »
Even if Iku/Tenshi's damaging roles are kind of redundent, Iku is still an excellent buffer and Tenshi's buff removal is pretty useful in Plus Disk. Kogasa and Parsee can deal huge damage, but you've already got several people who deal huge PHY/DRK/CLD damage. Plus, unlike Iku/Tenshi, they don't really have any utility you don't already have covered.

Warrior on Kogasa is pretty good. Without it, she has exactly one good element: DRK. With Warrior, she becomes a good attacker for FIR and CLD as well. As for Murakumo's Blessing, there's really no bad choice. Just pick your favourite character and laugh as they destroy everything[Or laugh as they help everyone els destroy everything[.