Topic: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?  (Read 1209 times)

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andykhang

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Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« on: August 13, 2017, 07:22:26 am »
With the new boss/Ex boss is known as one of the sage of Gensokyo, obviously she and Yukari is familiar with each others. I wonder if it's more than that, since:

- Both have blond hair, brown eyes and basically wearing the same style of clothes.

- Both being shady at fk (one is literally born out from the back of the world and mold by it (doing Bane impression), and another is Yukari)

- Both have power that's just vague enough to be OP as heck ("Border" and "Gate" is related to each other doesn't help)

- Both used their servant for menial job.

- Both being a unique type of bosses, even among the boss fight (Yukari being the only Phantasm boss stage, and Okina basically being the only boss that is the real boss you have to fight in both the final and Extra (I wouldn't count Junko, since Hecatia is the real Extra anyway), not to mention her fight basically span all across Gensokyo)

- Both of them have that natural smug face (lol,jk)

Is what I see, but some of the point also basically applied to every other big bosses in Touhou, so maybe they're just similar. Still an interesting thing to think about though.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 09:40:41 am »
Okina isn't shady, she's "hidden" but doesn't hide anything, and apparently likes being grandiose (which reminds me of Remilia). It's the opposite of Yukari, who shows herself a lot but anything she says or does comes out as ominous (she's even said to be the embodiment of ominousness) and shady, or at least with hidden meanings and goals.
Their powers are only similar in that they open holes in space, but the way they do it is very different, and it's just a fraction of what they can do.
Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 09:56:04 am »
I dunno why people usually have the logic that just because two characters are alike = they're sisters.

Canonically all of the sisters in touhou are actually pretty different from each other.  Closest you get from physical resemblance are the Akis, and yet their personalities differ quite a bit.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 10:54:28 am »
I doubt it, however I'm sure they at least know each other, okine is one of the creators of Gensokyo.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 11:10:37 am »
remilia scarlet and flandre scarlet are sisters
lunasa prismriver and merlin prismriver and lyrica prismriver are sisters
shizuha aki and minoriko aki are sisters
yorihime watatsuki and toyohime watatsuki are sisters
satori komeiji and koishi komeiji are sisters
benben tsukumo and yatsuhashi tsukumo are sisters

what would be the first thing to check to see if two characters might be sisters, i wonder

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 11:28:52 am »
to be fair, weren't the last two not at all related
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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 11:42:29 am »
to be fair, weren't the last two not at all related


Out of their character text : "They're said to be sisters, but it's just because they became tsukumogami at the same time. They're not blood relatives.".

andykhang

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 02:51:50 pm »
Okina isn't shady, she's "hidden" but doesn't hide anything, and apparently likes being grandiose (which reminds me of Remilia). It's the opposite of Yukari, who shows herself a lot but anything she says or does comes out as ominous (she's even said to be the embodiment of ominousness) and shady, or at least with hidden meanings and goals.
Their powers are only similar in that they open holes in space, but the way they do it is very different, and it's just a fraction of what they can do.

It's not like she's honest about her goal, either. She's willing to not tell her servant that she would search for her successor if she think it will help them ... somehow (she probably like to mess with them, tbh)

andykhang

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 02:53:59 pm »

what would be the first thing to check to see if two characters might be sisters, i wonder

When one character name is literally stated to not be her real name, and the other have so many form, she must just have that many name, in which Okina Matara is one, I don't think name is the first indication for that.

Edit: Though now that I think about it, I don't think these two are a type that would declare being a sister of each other, except maybe as a twinsy frank type of thing. They're more like .... the same breed with each other, IMO.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 03:01:00 pm by andykhang »

Clarste

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 07:02:19 am »
They're both sages. So's Kasen.

andykhang

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 12:49:05 pm »
Yeah, but there's a clear different between Kasen and the 2 of them. Kasen have darkness within her, but it easy to guess what it's and how much of it. For these two, one is like a crimelord, not bothering to said the specific because she literally got too many connection and crime stick for his head that she can't tell them all, while the other is an overlord so shady, the moment you step into her shadow is probably being planned beforehand or something.

There's no guessing the depth these two girl got, and we can only take their word for it.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:52:29 pm by andykhang »

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 12:51:14 pm »
remilia scarlet and flandre scarlet are sisters
lunasa prismriver and merlin prismriver and lyrica prismriver are sisters
shizuha aki and minoriko aki are sisters
yorihime watatsuki and toyohime watatsuki are sisters
satori komeiji and koishi komeiji are sisters
benben tsukumo and yatsuhashi tsukumo are sisters

what would be the first thing to check to see if two characters might be sisters, i wonder

This.
Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 03:10:20 pm »
They're both sages who were responsible for the creation of modern day Gensokyo as well as its ongoing protection, so you'll see a lot of similarities between the two.  The style of clothes they wear seems to be a Sage thing, since Kasen, who is also a sage, wears the same style.

Sisters seems a bit unlikely.  Okina is from one of the hindered clans from long ago and shares common ancestry with the Tengu.  Yukari meanwhile has never referenced such a thing, so it seems unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) that she's from the same clan as Okina.

(Of course, if Yukari hypothetically was Maribel, then the two were probably born in completely different time periods, with Okina being born in the ancient past while Maribel was born in the near future).

remilia scarlet and flandre scarlet are sisters
lunasa prismriver and merlin prismriver and lyrica prismriver are sisters
shizuha aki and minoriko aki are sisters
yorihime watatsuki and toyohime watatsuki are sisters
satori komeiji and koishi komeiji are sisters
benben tsukumo and yatsuhashi tsukumo are sisters

what would be the first thing to check to see if two characters might be sisters, i wonder

To be fair, "Yukari Yakumo" is "probably" not her real name, according to Rinnosuke (also supported by Akyu's wording in PMiSS).  I think the main evidence against any blood relation between the two is that Okina's original clan is detailed out (in Aya's extra scenario) and it doesn't seem related to Yukari at all.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 03:28:19 pm by Tiamat »

Clarste

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 04:32:32 pm »
Yeah, but there's a clear different between Kasen and the 2 of them. Kasen have darkness within her, but it easy to guess what it's and how much of it.

While we certainly spend a lot more time inside Kasen's head, I wouldn't say it's easy to guess how much darkness Kasen has.

andykhang

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 05:40:25 pm »
True that, but it's way more easy to guess what type of darkness she have (it's the adhering to rule type). While the others two...

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 05:52:07 pm »
The real question is whether or not Letty and Cirno are sisters. No one seems to be working on this one and I have no idea why!

Drake

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2017, 01:22:41 am »
To be fair, "Yukari Yakumo" is "probably" not her real name
Given that this seems to only be there to allude to Lafcadio Hearn, wouldn't you say that the existing evidence suggests her "real" name to be something completely different to Matara-jin?

I'm saying that if they were meant to be sisters, even ignoring everything else that makes it obvious they aren't, it would be highly likely that they'd have a relation in name somehow. Having such a glaringly obvious relation would be silly, yes, but you'd also have to ask why any two characters would have to be made sisters to begin with.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2017, 12:21:24 pm »
Given that this seems to only be there to allude to Lafcadio Hearn, wouldn't you say that the existing evidence suggests her "real" name to be something completely different to Matara-jin?

Yes, absolutely.  I just left open the hypothetical possibility that it might not be an allusion to Hearn (and thus, the extra hypothetical on top of that in which her real name might be something like "Jane Do Matara") because I'm still wary of people who get triggered whenever I dare to suggest Maribel and Yukari are the same person (or even just related) as a certainty instead of a possibility.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:42:07 pm by Tiamat »

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2017, 01:58:48 pm »
I'm still wary of people who get triggered whenever I dare to suggest Maribel and Yukari are the same person (or even just related) as a certainty instead of a possibility.

You've been touting my favorite Touhou speculative theory for years now and it's even reflected in your avatar. Is this still something you get met with vitriol about?

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2017, 02:52:24 pm »
Similarity does not imply relation. The only relation we know of between Yukari Yakumo and Okina is both are regarded as 'Youkai Sages'. I was actually wondering when we'd see another; given Yukari was always referred to as 'a youkai sage' or 'one of the youkai sages' and not 'THE youkai sage'.

It could even be possible that 'Sage' is a youkai species; which would explain similarities between Okina and Yukari.

I'm not too knowledgeable about WaHH and the mention of Kasen as a Sage in that mentioned above however. I'm not sure if 'sage' is used in the same way as it commonly is used with Yukari [As in; Yukari being a very ancient youkai that outdates Gensokyo and was one of the 'sages' who created it.]
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 02:55:20 pm by Raikaria »


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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2017, 03:39:32 pm »
It could even be possible that 'Sage' is a youkai species; which would explain similarities between Okina and Yukari.
"Sage" is most certainly a title. Especially if you consider the fact that the Sages' races is either mentionned explicitely or can be guessed with some certainty : Yukari is a youkai, Kasen is a certain something, Okina is a god. Even Eirin, who is not one of the sages of Gensokyo, is known to be a Sage from the Moon despite her being a heavenly goddess being fairly obvious. I'd say it's some kind of title received by people who are not only wise, smart and strong to a certain measure, but also have contributed quite a fair deal towards the well being of whatever place they are from. Of course Yukari and Okina would be pretty similar in various way if they were to earn the same title.

Also, to add on what has already been said and in consideration of the thread's title, It'd be pretty weird for Yukari and Okina to be sisters considering them being of different species (god & youkai) : that doesn't seem to bode quite well with the metaphysics surrounding these species : one does youkai stuff cuz of youkainess, the other essentially show off cuz she's a god and it's part of what being a god is . But dunno, maybe we can pretend that they are "sisters" in a sisterhood (... Sagehood ?) sense so, hey...

Anyway, this might just be my impression, but I kinda had the feeling that in the past there has been this general consensus that all of Gensokyo's Sages founders were essentially Youkai : with what HSiFS brought to the table, it turns out that is not the case : the possibility of the Sages being of different races and obviously coming from different background kinda adds stuff to the whole Sages dynamics and could even raise some question regarding their relationship. Dunno how WaHH's Kasen-being-a-Sage chapter came to other people, but them talking about "sides" and apparently not often being in contact nor knowing what the "others" are doing seems really suspicious to me as far as the Sages' relationship goes.

Like, Yukari and Okina would necessarily have common traits that derives from what they are capable of and what they did to earn the same title, but considering very big differences in the metaphysics that surrounds them, them being sisters seems VERY unlikely to me. They are very similars in some ways, but also very different in others. Also, I am highly doubtfull of Okina's source material being said to have some kind of siblings or something.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:28:11 pm by Suspicious person »
Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2017, 06:37:38 pm »
You've been touting my favorite Touhou speculative theory for years now and it's even reflected in your avatar. Is this still something you get met with vitriol about?

In the present day, not really.  I just have bad memories from years ago still.  I really need to let that go.  Scary enough most of it still feels like just yesterday.  Human memory is wierd.


Anyway, this might just be my impression, but I kinda had the feeling that in the past there has been this general consensus that all of Gensokyo's Sages founders were essentially Youkai : with what HSiFS brought to the table, it turns out that is not the case : the possibility of the Sages being of different races and obviously coming from different background kinda adds stuff to the whole Sages dynamics and could even raise some question regarding their relationship. Dunno how WaHH's Kasen-being-a-Sage chapter came to other people, but them talking about "sides" and apparently not often being in contact nor knowing what the "others" are doing seems really suspicious to me as far as the Sages' relationship goes.

It was PMiSS that refers to them as Youkai Sages, although they've just been referred to as Sages of Gensokyo or something like that elsewhere.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Monologue

I suspect Okina's insistent terminology that she be called a God and not a Youkai is ZUN's attempt to reconcile it.  It's possible ZUN originally intended them all to be youkai, but then changed his mind, and thus threw in that dialogue with Reimu and Okina where Reimu keeps referring to Okina as a youkai and Okina keeps insisting she be called a God instead in order to explain why they were called the youkai sages, basically indirectly making the in-universe reason for "Youkai sages" being that some people like Reimu refer to even gods as youkai in some cases.

...maybe.

Hmm, I'm trying to find where the deal with the underground youkai was said to be done by the sages (as opposed to just Yukari), in order to see what they were called there, but I can't find any reference to that at all.  Was my memory wrong again?  Bah.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2017, 06:42:31 pm »
In the present day, not really.  I just have bad memories from years ago still.  I really need to let that go.  Scary enough most of it still feels like just yesterday.  Human memory is wierd.

It is, and I understand. FWIW, I consider it among the best theories to have arisen from the fandom and one I cite when talking to other people about the creative power of this fandom.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2017, 08:32:54 pm »
It was PMiSS that refers to them as Youkai Sages, although they've just been referred to as Sages of Gensokyo or something like that elsewhere.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Monologue

I suspect Okina's insistent terminology that she be called a God and not a Youkai is ZUN's attempt to reconcile it.  It's possible ZUN originally intended them all to be youkai, but then changed his mind, and thus threw in that dialogue with Reimu and Okina where Reimu keeps referring to Okina as a youkai and Okina keeps insisting she be called a God instead in order to explain why they were called the youkai sages, basically indirectly making the in-universe reason for "Youkai sages" being that some people like Reimu refer to even gods as youkai in some cases.

...maybe.
Huh. Turns out it wasn't just some random consensus after all. I REALLY should reread some of the earlier stuff to refresh my memory  :X

I guess the issue is gonna be about "Sages" and "Youkai Sages". It won't be obvious to see whether 1/the Sages were considered to be pretty much Youkai therefore there was no need to mention the "Youkai" part of Youkai Sages every single time, or if 2/ "Sages" is much more broader than "Youkai Sages" and imply that there are other races in it, and that the youkai Sages that PMiSS mention are only the youkai ones among them.

At any rate, since we now have an allegedly non-youkai Sage, maybe option 2 could be the way to go to explain this  :X

Clarste

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2017, 08:38:26 pm »
I'm not too knowledgeable about WaHH and the mention of Kasen as a Sage in that mentioned above however. I'm not sure if 'sage' is used in the same way as it commonly is used with Yukari [As in; Yukari being a very ancient youkai that outdates Gensokyo and was one of the 'sages' who created it.]

The context was Yukari casually assuming Kasen was on her side until Kasen openly declared "I'm NOT on your side" to which Yukari responded with a sigh and "I suppose there can be disagreements even among the sages of Gensokyo." ("Sigh... its so lonely over here now..." "I'll wait for you to come back to my side.  As long as it takes.")

The obvious implication was that they were old allies who built Gensokyo together, but their ideals drifted apart afterwards. Given that Okina felt the need to start an incident to send the other sages a message, I think it's clear that the sages aren't in constant contact with each other, and probably have slightly different visions for what they want Gensokyo to be.

Edit: It's chapter 35 if you want to go check it out. It won't be hard to follow unless you're completely unfamiliar with what Sumireko's deal is post-ULiL.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 08:51:04 pm by Clarste »

Drake

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2017, 01:48:08 am »
I suspect Okina's insistent terminology that she be called a God and not a Youkai is ZUN's attempt to reconcile it.  It's possible ZUN originally intended them all to be youkai, but then changed his mind, and thus threw in that dialogue with Reimu and Okina where Reimu keeps referring to Okina as a youkai and Okina keeps insisting she be called a God instead in order to explain why they were called the youkai sages, basically indirectly making the in-universe reason for "Youkai sages" being that some people like Reimu refer to even gods as youkai in some cases.
Most of what I'm reading there is just that Okina caused an incident much like a youkai, and their logic for all of this is unintelligible to Reimu, who has recently been known for saying things like "I can't understand youkai at all", so this is more of that. I don't think it should be that difficult for people to believe some gods may have played a part in Gensokyo's establishment.

Hmm, I'm trying to find where the deal with the underground youkai was said to be done by the sages (as opposed to just Yukari), in order to see what they were called there, but I can't find any reference to that at all.  Was my memory wrong again?  Bah.
Yuugi says 地上の賢者達 in ReimuB dialogue.

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2017, 02:10:47 am »
It is, and I understand. FWIW, I consider it among the best theories to have arisen from the fandom and one I cite when talking to other people about the creative power of this fandom.

Thanks ^_^

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Yuugi says 地上の賢者達 in ReimuB dialogue.

Wow, all the various search terms I was trying didn't turn that up at all.  Thanks!  Guess my memory was correct after all.  I was starting to worry I was going senile.

Most of what I'm reading there is just that Okina caused an incident much like a youkai, and their logic for all of this is unintelligible to Reimu, who has recently been known for saying things like "I can't understand youkai at all", so this is more of that. I don't think it should be that difficult for people to believe some gods may have played a part in Gensokyo's establishment.

That's definately the in-story context.  That it's logical that som gods also played a part in Gensokyo's establishment is true too, but I figured ZUN might not have considered that when he originally called them the "youkai sages". Reimu's confusing of the term (even if just because Okina's incident was similar to what a youkai would have done) conveniently explains why they might sometimes be called the "youkai sages" despite how Okina's... well, not a youkai.

If that's the case, ZUN probably decided that at least one god should be part of the group instead of exclusively youkai a while ago, since they''re now referred to as the "Sages of Gensokyo"  in WaHH (possibly even earlier since it's just "sages" in Yuugi's dialogue).

Are gods referred to as youkai elsewhere?  My memory on that subject is blurry.  I guess there's always instead the possibility that maybe Akyuu and the public simply didn't know some of the "youkai sages" were not actually youkai, especially since Okina is a god of secrets.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 02:19:31 am by Tiamat »

Clarste

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2017, 04:41:14 am »
Are gods referred to as youkai elsewhere?  My memory on that subject is blurry.  I guess there's always instead the possibility that maybe Akyuu and the public simply didn't know some of the "youkai sages" were not actually youkai, especially since Okina is a god of secrets.

In UFO, Byakuren argues that gods and youkai are the same thing, just that one is unfairly persecuted.

Anyway, I think it's fairly clear in retrospect that PMiSS was written with the next few works already in mind, which is why it foreshadows things like Youkai Mountain, kappa, celestials, etc. This includes WaHH too, since it talks about hermits and more importantly sages. I think we can say with some certainty that he'd already planned the Kasen reveal when he created her character, so in that sense, the "youkai sages" originally referred to only Yukari and Kasen. However, now we're long since past the point where PMiSS was foreshadowing, and he's drifted towards "sages of Gensokyo/the surface."
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:44:33 am by Clarste »

andykhang

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2017, 04:57:12 pm »
Speaking of Okina's godhood...Is there even a thing as a Youkai God, an oxymoron that is? If so, with so many title Okina claim to have, is it possible that she's also be one?

Edit: Also, Youkai could turn into god, and vice-versa...so the Youkai/God boundary thing is abit loose here.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:59:14 pm by andykhang »

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Re: Is Yukari and Okina sisters?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2017, 05:28:48 pm »
Also aren't the kishin "oni gods"?
 

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