Topic: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?  (Read 6329 times)

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2017, 11:29:54 pm »
Oh my god these uber morons just don't get it, if you sue Maribel Hearn for being Yakumon Yukarin she will become sued Mary.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2017, 04:13:54 am »
*ahem*

While I agree that Yukari is probably the Mary Sue-est character in Touhou, here's some side sueish characters:
Marisa (magical prodigy despite being an ordinary human)
Sanae (person from outside world who got to come into Gensokyo and become a demigoddess)
And finally... Byakuren, with her pacifist attitude and gradient hair.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2017, 03:01:35 pm »
Yukari may be the most sue-like but I do see she isn't totally a sue. Plus she's more antagonistic at times. It doesn't make her a bad character by any means though. If you want to stretch things then most characters have some sort of sue-like trait.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2017, 10:03:18 pm »
Marisa (magical prodigy despite being an ordinary human)
i thought Marisa was supposed to be the ordinary human who works hard for her powers :/
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2017, 02:38:56 am »
She is absolutely not a prodigy, no

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2017, 07:22:01 am »
Reimu. Because she is a cheater in a danmaku duel.

According to PMiSS, even if she loses, she will ask for a rematch 24/7 until she wins so it's a matter of time before she finally wins either because the Youkai is tired of her or she won out of sheer luck. I've never seen Youkai asking for a rematch ever. I guess she claims that as her exclusive prerogative. Everyone is destined to lose against the almighty shrine maiden anyway so resistance is futile. Suck it up, human and youkai alike!

Except when she loses to Suika, which is a canon ending for IaMP, because plot reason and maybe because that incident is non-threatening and pointless to resolve since the beginning but Raymoo is too stupid to realize it or maybe Suika is just too strong for that. If we replace Utsuho with Suika as the final boss of SA, then Gensokyo would be doomed right there.

For Yorihime, it's because Reimu knows she's invading other people's territory and thus making her a villian so she knows she should be punished.

Oh, and sometimes she likes to bully Youkai with impunity for no reason other than for her self-gratification with "making Youkai behave themselves" as excuse. Youkai do the same and it's RAYMOO goes apeshit with extermination!
I know that this last point has no concrete proof but that doesn't make her any less unlikable.


That's why I like to suppose a scenario where humans and Youkai is tired of Reimu's shit and starting to disobey Spell Card Rules and declaring war against each other. Gensokyo is collapsing from imbalance and destruction as a result. Then, Reimu must reconcile both sides and agree to soften up on her sue-ish power if she wishes to maintain Gensokyo.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 07:32:46 am by Kageshirou »

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2017, 11:39:51 am »
Jesus fucking Christ. Reimu isn't a mary sue at all. And I think the reason why you think she is, is because your only looking at one part of her character.

Read WaHH, where she is NOT sueish in any way, shape, or form. In that manga, she constantly makes mistakes, fails, makes a fool of herself, and is generally just an all around dumbass.

The only sueish thing about her, as you mentioned, is her power. And a powerful character isn't automatically a sue BTW. Because even If she can't lose a fight, she isn't so successful with other things.

(This was written late at night btw. So sorry if this makes no sense.)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 11:44:20 am by the old guy »
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2017, 03:16:22 pm »
See how I feel, "old guy"?

I've never seen Youkai asking for a rematch ever

Good job forgetting every stage 6 where the previous boss comes back for one more attack.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2017, 03:59:21 pm »
Reimu. Because she is a cheater in a danmaku duel.

According to PMiSS, even if she loses, she will ask for a rematch 24/7 until she wins so it's a matter of time before she finally wins either because the Youkai is tired of her or she won out of sheer luck. I've never seen Youkai asking for a rematch ever. I guess she claims that as her exclusive prerogative. Everyone is destined to lose against the almighty shrine maiden anyway so resistance is futile. Suck it up, human and youkai alike!
"Asking for a rematch" is what happens when you choose "continue" in the games. And you can use a continue with any playable character, which includes some youkai(Yukari, Remilia, Alice, Aya, Cirno et cetera). Basically anyone can ask for a rematch in a danmaku duel, but most opt not to.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2017, 04:18:36 pm »
...Wow, never expect this to momentarily explode like that.

@Old Guy: And on second thought, she isn't much of a Sue as you thought she were though. Another aspect of a Sue is how she seems to bend reality so that everything is about "her". Aside from her power is to literally bend reality (and even though she could bend everyone's wills that way), she doesn't seems to affect people's personality with just her presence (and she's op to mess with people mind the pro way anyway), and everyone at least act pretty normal and consistence, with or without her presence (in some game she's asupporting characters, no less, and it's fit with her role too).

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2017, 04:21:20 pm »
See how I feel, "old guy"?

Good job forgetting every stage 6 where the previous boss comes back for one more attack.
One more attack isn't "let's repeat the whole duel until i win". Giving a rematch is in the rules, and for what we know in EoSD Cirno asked for one before admitting defeat, but we can't know it. Only Reimu is known to repeatedly ask rematches.
"Asking for a rematch" is what happens when you choose "continue" in the games. And you can use a continue with any playable character, which includes some youkai(Yukari, Remilia, Alice, Aya, Cirno et cetera). Basically anyone can ask for a rematch in a danmaku duel, but most opt not to.
That's the point, the others don't do it. You can as a player, but in canon only Reimu explicitly does it.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2017, 08:50:07 pm »
To be fair, the whole point is "youkai cause incidents, humans resolve them" so that youkai can assert their presence without actually having to hurt anyone. Once they've caused an incident the youkai have already done their part and gotten what they wanted. Asking Reimu for a rematch is kind of pointless.

At least in theory. In actuality I think EoSD was the only game that could actually ve interpreted as a youkai asserting themselves, and even then that's just one way of interpreting Remi's incredibly vague motivations in that game.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2017, 04:06:53 am »
If some Youkai are really serious about taking over the world stuff, that would be an endless conflict.
Both sides would ask for a rematch one after the other. Also, what if the opposing side isn't a Youkai, more endless match?


I mean, the reason I think Reimu is the sue because the phrase "likes to have rematches until she wins" is written as if Reimu was the sore loser.

PMiSS SC rules also state that the opposing side must allow loser to have a rematch but it doesn't state that one can only have so many retry and the rule clearly states that the loser must abide by the winner's offer so I imagine Reimu be like "I've lost in my 344th rematch against you and I should be doing what you want by now but Nope! I won the 345th match so now you will do what I say!" That's freaking sue-ish in my eyes.


Yes, I know it's an exaggeration but it is a possible scenario from the way it is written in PMiSS.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 07:05:22 am by Kageshirou »

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2017, 05:23:47 am »
This Reimu discussion is the perfect example of how a Mary Sue discussion is pointless one.

Kageshirou is applying different standards of "Mary Sue" than the others. And these others probably have different standards of Mary Sue from each other, too.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2017, 08:38:36 am »
Komachi is a mary sue. She can just manipulate distance so she doesn't have to get up to get a beer.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2017, 09:11:23 am »
This Reimu discussion is the perfect example of how a Mary Sue discussion is pointless one.

Kageshirou is applying different standards of "Mary Sue" than the others. And these others probably have different standards of Mary Sue from each other, too.

Hey, I never considered this until reading this thread, but it's true. It's like a thinly veiled power level discussion or something.

I just thought we all agreed it was The Moon Sisters and that's that?

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2017, 09:25:36 am »
Cirno is a mary sue because she can chill her beer no matter what.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2017, 09:47:58 am »
...And know it's really explode.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2017, 10:36:23 am »
Rumia is a Mary Sue because she can keep the sun from making her beer warm up all the time.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2017, 11:23:28 am »
The Five Magic Stones are the ultimate Mary Sues of Touhou. Just try and find a flaw with them. Spoilers: you can't.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2017, 11:56:07 am »
The Five Magic Stones are the ultimate Mary Sues of Touhou. Just try and find a flaw with them. Spoilers: you can't.

If they're such Mary Sues, why do they need to be five to be so efficient? Shouldn't 1 be enough?  :3

That fairy that managed to hit Reimu in one of the 3 faeries manga though is the reason why such a conversation exists though!
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2017, 03:49:13 pm »
Sekibanki is a mary sue because she can go get a beer and never leave the TV for a second. And then use the bathroom!

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2017, 10:44:52 pm »
<character> is a Mary Sue and I have absolutely no evidence to back up my claims.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2017, 05:05:47 am »
This question depends on whether you suppose a Mary Sue has to be morally perfect in addition to all the other areas of perfection. If so, then Yukari definitely isn't a Sue, because she has done some morally questionable things, at least by our standards (and before you go about saying "well it's not by her standards, keep in mind that many villains or anti-villains see themselves as the "hero" or at least a force of good as well).

It also depends on how much you assume about the characters' thoughts and internal conflicts. Yukari may appear as a Sue but for all we know she might have some great internal conflict (maybe left over from her possible time as a human) or feel ambivalent about certain things or consider herself to have made many mistakes, but we don't know almost any of her internal thoughts, so I guess the verdict could be "needs more information."

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2017, 09:12:13 am »
Sanae is a mary sue because she doesn't even drink beer!
Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2017, 09:22:15 am »
Closest I can think of a touhou Mary-sue is Miko, but that's just because she tries selling other the image that she's perfect.  Cue to all of the extravagant poses with sparkles and etc in HM.  So in the end she doesn't even count.

 But in a more serious note,
Wakasagihime is a mary sue because since everyone's body is 70% water she can grow in power infinitely!!!!
Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2017, 01:30:39 am »
I didn't plan on participating in this discussion but I've been entertained and I'd like to see it keep going :p

I think this discussion would be more productive if it were backed by scholarly research on the Mary Sue characterization. In other words, TVTropes articles.
Mary Sue
Common Mary Sue Traits

There also should be an established example of an "almost Mary Sue" from outside Touhou. The Wikipedia article on Mary Sue uses Rey from The Force Awakens; she is "excessively gifted at a variety of skills," but said skills are established by backstory or else "she'd probably be dead."

None of the characters in Touhou are Sues. "More Mary Sue-like" is not quite a power-level argument since personality and relationships in Touhou are much more defined than powers and strength.

Using a few examples from Common Mary Sue Traits for Yukari:
Everyone knows her.
Her flaw is that she sleeps a lot. This flaw does not hinder her character.
Loosely defined ability has absurdly powerful implications.
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« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:32:29 am by shockdude »
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2017, 02:38:19 am »
Shinmyoumaru is a mary sue because she only needs one beer.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2017, 03:52:10 am »
I think this discussion would be more productive if it were backed by scholarly research on the Mary Sue characterization. In other words, TVTropes articles.

There's also the Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test although such a thing would be hard to fill up completely since Touhou characters have many traits open for different interpretations. There's also various kinds of them as shown there which may apply to some characters but at the same time, having various Sue traits doesn't mean the character is a Mary Sue. Another thing too is a character can have all those traits but still end up well written. These traits can of course ruin a character or flat out destroy a story too.

Whether one considers such a thing disproportionate or not, I know some folks who thinks Forbidden Scrollery would be ruined if Yukari once again comes out on top in term of what has been happening without any repercussions to the character, getting away because of her cunning and intellect yet again.

Shinmyoumaru is a mary sue because she only needs one beer.

Purji is a mary sue because they're able to find mary sue traits in Touhou characters so easily!  :3
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2017, 07:37:37 pm »
It's true, the butts match. I am Batman.
 

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