Topic: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?  (Read 5507 times)

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andykhang

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Disregarding fanwork (since that's too obvious), who do you think have the most of the Mary Sue trait? I want to ask this question since I saw a comment on Hecatia earlier, that's comparing her to common Mary Sue trope. I found it to be a least bit accurate, and that Hecate herself is also a bit of a Sue herself (a Titan that actually isn't being skull-smashed by Zeus, and who even that frat boy of the god respect, a goddess of the underworld that's actually liked, etc...). Note that I don't considered anyone in Touhou to be a Sue themselve, due to all of the Touhou cast are :1 . Not a show-stealer and 2. Have actual personality, but comparing trope could be fun.

martelefort

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2017, 12:49:25 pm »
I don't know if we can really call them Mary Sue, but in the print works, Kasen, Eirin and the Watatsuki sisters are the closest imo. In the games, aside from Reimu i can't think of many.

TrueShadow

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 02:24:31 pm »
Obviously Wakasagihime.

Like, her name literally has "Princess" in it. She's totally meant as a self-insert for pre-pubescent girls.

Oh yeah, she lives in Misty Lake. You know, that lake near Cirno and the SDM. And we conveniently never saw her ever before. This is all an obvious setup do she can get into wacky hijinks with the popular characters without much effort!

She's also strong enough to be the Phantasm boss of DDC. That's basically Yukari level! How can you be any more of a Sue than this? What's that? Fanmade? What a load of bull of an excuse.

And finally, she's not even wearing seashell bra like any other proper mermaids! It's like she's telling us she's soooo much better than those mainstream mermaids! She's a graceful lady unlike those slutty bimbos.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2017, 03:58:14 pm »
the Watatsuki sisters

Yes. This has been the consensus for years now. I remain fairly convinced they're still in this category.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2017, 04:26:05 pm »
Sumireko started out as a blatant one, but she was handled nicely and isn't really sue-ish anymore.

As for the biggest Sue? Just Lunar Capital in general.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 03:25:05 am »
The Watatsuki sisters and the Lunarians are an interesting case. They are powerful indeed but most of them are extremely unlikeable goons who are so prideful and narrow-minded that they sure as heck didn't see the events of LoLK coming. They're so frightened by the concept of impurity that it turns them into complete wimps to the point it reaches comical levels. Meanwhile, the Watatsuki sisters, the heroes (anti-villains at worst) of SSiB are indeed portrayed as very powerful beings but they were outsmarted by what is possibly a genuine Mary Sue. Also, for so-called Mary Sues, the sisters screws up by allowing a guest to live on their world even though they shouldn't, their so-called hatred of Earth doesn't override their ability to visit their mentor and they both have displayed personality traits that shows they are flawed.

Reimu has many attributes of a Mary Sue but her personality quickly withers that. She's capable of being very stubborn, reckless, selfish, violent and while she's capable of great feats as a shrine maiden, the spell card rule means a certain level of balance is maintained in the story unless the situation requires her to take drastic measures. She has numerous qualities as well making her actually a fairly balanced character.

Yukari is bar none the closest we have as a Mary Sue, if she flat out isn't one. She's typically able to do as she pleases, she outsmarts everyone, including the so-called genius of the Moon during the conclusion of CiLR, she is a blatant mouthpiece for ZUN at times, so far she hasn't really got any comeuppance for any of her dickery and the only time we seem to get a reaction from her is when Kasen tells her they're not allies and that, ultimately doesn't cause her any real issues except, just maybe, emotional ones if she's capable of that. The only flaws I can think of when it comes to her is possibly laziness and being possibly what a normal human being would consider to be an unredeemable monster but the latter would be more based on speculations. Her most redeeming quality seems to be that she likes to go after extremely arrogant people to the point it seems to be something that genuine gets on her nerves, to the point I wonder if the first Lunar War wasn't to humble the youkai through a humiliating defeat.

I honestly expect her to outsmart Reimu in the next chapter of FS or something along those lines. It would be refreshing if it didn't happen to be the case.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 11:18:57 am by Jeremie »
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andykhang

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 02:50:27 pm »
Hm...Yukari make sense as a Mary Sue though. If only because, honestly, as this point we knew nothing about her, and what she shown is what she want people to think about her. She would be (or sell herself as) the true spider god of the universe and we would buy it. I don't know if I ever seen a moment where she left down her guard at all if it also doesn't have any expetation or plan within it. (At least she outsmart rather than out Sue the Lunarian though)

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 06:57:41 pm »
I actually think Yukari has all those Mary Sue traits attributed to her mostly 'cause she embodies the Barrier,therefore most kind of conflict personally involving her is going to be something BIG,and since Touhou is not a franchise that has long lasting consequences in canon,she's going to have to come out on top every time if ZUN needs to keep the status quo (disregarding FS recent developments that portrays her as someone who actively pursues changes)

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I honestly expect her to outsmart Reimu in the next chapter of FS or something along those lines. It would be refreshing if it didn't happen to be the case.

I prefer the opposite,since Yukari outsmarting Reimu (again) would mean that Kosuzu gets to stay relevant to Touhou lore,dammit :V and I would like to see this status quo broken even if that means cementing Yukari's position as some sort of powers that be,exist solely for *plot happens since Yukari wills it*,as per fanon.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 06:30:58 pm »
Obligatory 'Watasuki' mention. Although you could argue with the whole 'purity' thing of the Lunarians; that their culture is literally to be Mary Sues; hence giving them somewhat of a pass.

Hm...Yukari make sense as a Mary Sue though. If only because, honestly, as this point we knew nothing about her, and what she shown is what she want people to think about her. She would be (or sell herself as) the true spider god of the universe and we would buy it. I don't know if I ever seen a moment where she left down her guard at all if it also doesn't have any expetation or plan within it. (At least she outsmart rather than out Sue the Lunarian though)

A Mary Sue is not a character who is powerful. A Mary Sue is a character without a flaw. Yukari has flaws. MASSIVE flaws. Such has her being lazy; her viewing Ran as nothing more than a computer [Basically; less than a slave]; her sleeping; and the fact she doesn't exactly get her point across clearly in most cases.

Would you call Yukari 'an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character.' I wouldn't. This is also why I give the Watasukis a pass for being Sues. Because the Lunarians as a whole strive for perfection and purity. They are Sues because the Lunarians are literally a species of Sues [Or at least try to be].

Yukari is powerful; yes. Is Yukari a Sue? No. Yukari is; at worst; Deus Ex Machina to solve a problem.

The character closest to a Sue that isn't the Watasukis is probobly Eirin... another Lunarian. Specifically a high-ranking Lunarian. But Eirin doesn't get enough prominence to really say for sure if she's a Sue or not. The only argument against Lunarian Sue-ness is Kaguya; and she was explicitly exiled for impurity. For that matter; Reisen; a Lunar Rabbit; is actually not far off as well. I don't recall any notable flaws in Reisen's character... but I can't get far enough in Touhou 15 to be sure.

ZUN does go a good job of making most recurring characters have some sort of notable flaw; even if it's only revealed in supplementary materials [EG: Aya's pushiness; if it wasn't for that I would be calling her a Sue... especially as she somewhat resembles ZUN's wife; and a Mary Sue is 'Often recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment'.]
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:35:00 pm by Raikaria »


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martelefort

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 06:53:47 pm »
I don't recall any notable flaws in Reisen's character... but I can't get far enough in Touhou 15 to be sure.
Z [EG: Aya's pushiness; if it wasn't for that I would be calling her a Sue...

I agree with your whole point, but i don't think Reisen or Aya can be considered Sues either. Aside from her pushiness, Aya is rather sly and change her behaviour depending on whoever she's with, and she's quite manipulative. Of course, people may find that appealing, but in my opinion it doesn't really fit into what i would call a flawless character.

Concerning Reisen, she's rather pessimistic and easily pushed-over by Eirin and Tewi, while being totaly anti-social cold toward other people. She openly mocks Marisa over her mistake in FS, and in BAiJR, she says directly to Aya that she doesn't care if people eat poultry, and she's saying it only because she thinks Aya is a crow.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 07:53:21 pm »
True; I gave them as examples of near-sue; but while I couldn't recall Reisen's flaws off the top of my head; I could remember one of Aya's [admittedly small] ones. Aya also has ground because of the whole 'fastest in Gensokoyo' thing and how she claims to never be going all out [And how she's pretty powerful with her wind manipulation on top of her speed].

Aya's not a sue; but she's close to it IMO.

I wasn't aware of Reisen's mocking/taunting in the mangas however. Perhaps she's picked that up from Tewi. That does push her down. Although; thinking oneself superior would also exclude the Watasukis from being Sues as well.

What I'd consider the 'core cast' however; Zun has done really; really well making them not-Sues. Especially Reimu who basically walks around with plot armour because if anyone actually kills her it's taking Gensokyo and whoever did the deed with her; except in a few situations [Mostly; Reimu being not in Gensokoyo]. Reimu and Marisa both have large flaws. Multiple; in fact. It would have been all too easy to make Reimu a Sue. But she's not. She's not been since she was given a speaking role in SoEW.

By the same token; it took until Ten Desires for Windows-Era Touhou to get a strictly villainous character [Seiga. Followed by Seija in DDC who I'd also call strictly villainous.]. Most villians were either misunderstood; had a good reason; or were causing minor trouble out of boredom but were clearly shown to not be evil. I'd include characters like Meria [Only action/interest is 'kill Reimu; steal Orbs'] from PC-98 but they don't get enough characterization to really push from 'antagonist' to 'villain'.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 08:02:22 pm by Raikaria »


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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 11:14:04 pm »
I don't know how anyone who has read BAiJR could still say Aya even comes close to being a Mary Sue. Maybe you haven't read it?

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 12:49:40 am »
Yukari is absolutely not a Sue. As mentioned before, Being Powerful isn't enough to make someone that, that's like, only one trait of what makes a Sue a Sue. Nether is the fact that she rarely get punished for her assholeness, that's just Gensokyo. She clearly has flaws that make her pretty annoying at times and give the impression of someone who's very unpredictable.

This fits in with the fact that ZUN stated he designed Yukari to be a "Nasty" character, I think it's pretty clear that Yukari is not meant to be seen as an perfect or infallible person.

And where did the part about her being ZUN's mouthpiece come from? If that was the case, that's not really exclusive to her. ZUN recently used Hecatia to share his opinion on emigration, Renko and Mary for his philosophical views IIRC, and I think he said that Kanako in SOPM was voicing his own opinions on the setting. I think he said that Rinnosuke was really a avatar for himself as well.

To be frank, Jeremle, you sound like you're letting your basis for the Lunarians cloud your judgement on who's a Sue or not. Yukari outsmarted the Sisters, so therefore its her that's the Sue. That's not really a fair thing to do.
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Prime32

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 12:52:14 am »
I wasn't aware of Reisen's mocking/taunting in the mangas however. Perhaps she's picked that up from Tewi. That does push her down.
No, it's mostly just racism and ignorance on Reisen's part. She's also a coward, though by LoLK she's become more of a cowardly lion (or at least, she's learned to fear the consequences of her actions rather than living in the moment all the time).

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Although; thinking oneself superior would also exclude the Watasukis from being Sues as well.
The Watatsukis aren't particularly haughty unless you count the pre-fight trash-talk everyone does, but they do have flaws. Yorihime takes everything too seriously, making her unpopular and causing her enormous stress (if she was mortal, she'd probably die of overwork). Toyohime on the other hand is too lazy and laid-back.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 02:17:16 am »
Yukari is bar none the closest we have as a Mary Sue, if she flat out isn't one. She's typically able to do as she pleases, she outsmarts everyone, including the so-called genius of the Moon during the conclusion of CiLR, she is a blatant mouthpiece for ZUN at times, so far she hasn't really got any comeuppance for any of her dickery and the only time we seem to get a reaction from her is when Kasen tells her they're not allies and that, ultimately doesn't cause her any real issues except, just maybe, emotional ones if she's capable of that. The only flaws I can think of when it comes to her is possibly laziness and being possibly what a normal human being would consider to be an unredeemable monster but the latter would be more based on speculations. Her most redeeming quality seems to be that she likes to go after extremely arrogant people to the point it seems to be something that genuine gets on her nerves, to the point I wonder if the first Lunar War wasn't to humble the youkai through a humiliating defeat.

I never thought about it like this, but after reading I actually totally agree 100%. While Yukari is a powerful character, her power isn't the reason she's Mary Sue-ish. It's the fact that:
She does whatever she wants and never gets punished for her dickery.
All her flaws are informed ones that never actually hinder her or cause any problems down the road (her laziness is never a problem when the story needs her to be active, for example). Contrast with Reimu, whose "slave to the PR" status and "act first think later" mentality both cause her trouble occasionally, or the Lunarians whose racism winds up getting their booze stolen and their purity obsession gets them driven out of their home by fairies.
Lastly, she ALWAYS wins in the end. No matter who she's up against she always defeats or outsmarts them. Her plans succeed 100% of the time, usually at little to no cost to Yukari.

She doesn't exactly have the "everyone loves her" status that most Mary Sues do, though she's not exactly detested by all either. Her relationship with Reimu is questionable, but they do team up often and Yukari even took Reimu away to train her. She's also pretty revered by Akyuu, who's arguably one of the most important people in the village.

So all in all, I actually agree that Yukari's the most Mary Sue-ish, even though she's certainly not the most powerful. At least the Lunarians get outsmarted and made fools of regularly, and Reimu is a super strong but still flawed protagonist.
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Jeremie

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2017, 03:01:08 am »
Old guy, I think you misunderstood me to a certain degree and as for having my judgement "clouded", not really, it's not a matter of who defeated who which makes me say this, especially when Yukari is one of my favorite character in the series. After all, by that logic, one could say that some people considers the Watatsuki sisters to be Mary Sues because Yorihime curbstomped a bunch of popular characters. I'm not sure if she isn't infallible since, again, she typically, if not always succeeds at what she's trying to do and do whatever she feels like.

The thing is, one could say she's a Mary Tzu which may have some merit (again, I said she may be the closest we have as a Mary Sue, not that she flat out is one) but all her antics indeed comes at a price seeing how most people tolerates her at best and many do not trust her to the point they'd rather not interact with her, almost as if they had to deal with the devil itself. On the other hand, if we start to overanalyze the character, a thing with Yukari is that, does she even care about that?

If she does, it sort of make her a tragic character who does her duty regardless of the consequences. After all, she's most likely not emotionless. She's not without friends and while there were no consequences for what she's trying to do, Kasen's words seemed to actually affect her enough to leave her speechless for a moment. However, if she doesn't care then, as TresserT said, we have a character who's ultimately not affected by her own flaws, thus making her capable of doing what she pleases, succeed all the time which might possibly result in a boring invincible hero/villain. Obviously I prefer to think it's at the very least not the latter.

As for the mouthpiece thing, yes, ZUN used other characters to do that but there are times where one can immediately figure out what's going on. That by itself isn't a bad thing. However, I feel earlier instances of this came off as overly preachy, if not pretentious at times. Personally, I feel he did a far, far better job later with SoPM and AFiEU compared to older instances of that which shows that his writing has been getting better. Case in point: Forbidden Scrollery.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 11:06:52 am by Jeremie »
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andykhang

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2017, 03:32:37 am »
Funny enough though, if you consider the Maribel = Yukari theory, she would end up be quite a decent character: A woman of otherworldly power and curiousity end up falling too deep into a rabbit hole, and become less and less of a person as she obtain more and more power. It's also would reflect the ultimate misguided evolution of the protagonist archetype if you don't handle them carefully.

I digress though. Most likely, the reason Yukari look Mary Sue-ish, in my opinion, is because she build up her image precisely that way, and no one ever saw her doing anything otherwise (except probably her close friend). A perfect mask, doing it perfect job of protecting both herself and Gensokyo. That's also why she is the most Youkai-like Youkai left in the victiny though, since Youkai is essentially a twisted being, and nothing is more twisted than someone who's having the mask so perfect you can't even take a glimsp of the darkness behind it.

And so far, nothing is worst enough to even crack that mask.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 05:04:44 am »
Literally everyone is a Mary Sue. Especially Batman.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2017, 05:26:47 am »
And so far, nothing is worst enough to even crack that mask.

What happens when she removes it herself?  Look at how she was established as the final villain of FS.  We thought of Yukari as one of the pillars of Gensokyo's balance, and she deliberately shattered it.  And not with manipulation of boundaries, instead, manipulation of Kosuzu.  The dark side is being put on display right now!
But with her appearing more, it also shows her vulnerabilities and flaws.  Both Reimu and Kasen have caught her off guard.  And way back in the old fighters, Suika has said she can expose the truth of Yukari, which is the one thing that can ruin her mythos.

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andykhang

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2017, 06:24:04 am »
Off-guard, but no consequence of that is shown yet(and unless you count that twitch of emotion Yukari show, or that sarcasm she have for Reimu "off-guard", neither of them really didn't caught her). She deliberately shattered it, knowing full-well that it isn't going to affect her abit, and change Gensokyo for her wimp greatly.

At this time, it's not her removing the mask, but her simply throwing one out and letting people speculate (read: overthink) what it is.  At least what Suika's said is significant.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2017, 12:43:45 am »
Nevermind, i change my mind, Yukari's a Mary Sue. For all of the reasons listed above, and also because none of her actual losses ever hurt her, she always brushes them off and say that was part of her plan. Some would argue that Yuyuko not getting more than the sake in CiLR, when Yukari wanted more than that could count as a failure, but it doesn't matter because she still wins anyways. Her goal was to scare Eirin and she did. Similarly in PCB, the heroine beats her, but she still doesn't fix the border. This applies to pretty much all of her appearances.

I said she may be the closest we have as a Mary Sue, not that she flat out is one

You need to rethink this, she fits the Sue label to a tee. There is no way around it. I'm honestly surprised at how sueish she is, holy crap.

Also: Remilia, she almost never loses, her real losses barely convenient her, and she can literally control things to go her way. She also a pretty damn blatant sue.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2017, 01:22:37 am »
Also: Remilia, she almost never loses, her real losses barely convenient her, and she can literally control things to go her way. She also a pretty damn blatant sue.
Remilia is strong but she doesn't control anything, she's just chuuni.

She spends a lot of her appearances being clueless and/or upstaged by Sakuya and Patchouli. She's the only character in SWR who never figures out the cause of the incident, she only completed her moon rocket because both Yukari and Eirin were secretly helping her, and she mistook a chupacabra for a treeshrew (then lost it).

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2017, 03:51:04 am »
Also: Remilia, she almost never loses, her real losses barely convenient her, and she can literally control things to go her way. She also a pretty damn blatant sue.

Remi loses all the time, what are you on about?  The whole reason we have the Spellcard Rules is because she got cocky, thought she could rule Gensokyo, and got her ass handed to her.  Then she gets thumped by Reimu in EoSD, by Suika in IaMP, by Yorihime in SSiB, etc.  Even little things like her plan to capture Lily White blow up in her face.  Her only win of note is Imperishable Night, and even then we don't know which path she and Sakuya took.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2017, 04:39:13 am »
Okay, fine. I guess Remilia isn't really a sue after all. Yukari's still a sue, though.
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2017, 06:59:37 am »
Yukari gets absolutely no love for her actions in-universe, even from those who do benefit from them. Plus her inaction and outright allowing some VERY questionable things to happen lately severely undermine her "always right" image, even in my eyes. So no, not Sue at all. Stop with the hate speech.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2017, 08:11:47 am »
Yukari isn't a sue because she's "loved by everyone", I personally don't think that ether, but that's not what makes her a sue. Her informed flaws are what make her a sue. None of her actual flaws hurt her in any way.

Also it isn't hate speech to criticize a character.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:17:32 am by the old guy »
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2017, 08:32:53 am »
Being able to modify plans on the fly and make the best out of any situation don't make a character a Sue.

"Mary Sue" is defined as a bunch of traits with no single defining one, and insisting otherwise reeks of "I hate this character so she's a Sue" mentality. If you're going to provide a criticism of a character then you have to take the character as a whole into account, not just cherry-pick the most blatant problems with them.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2017, 08:45:23 am »
Being able to modify plans on the fly and make the best out of any situation don't make a character a Sue.
In Yukari's case it does. It basically means she can get away with anything without any repercussions.

If you're going to provide a criticism of a character then you have to take the character as a whole into account, not just cherry-pick the most blatant problems with them.
That's kind of what we're doing here.  Aside from her informed flaws, she's always very powerful, literally can almost never lose, and whenever she does lose, it was because she wanted to lose. Those sound like sueish traits to me.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:48:03 am by the old guy »
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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2017, 09:04:58 am »
Arguing about Mary Sue-ness is a massive waste of time tbh. That term is so ill-defined and everyone has their own definition of a Mary Sue. Might as well argue whose waifu is the best waifu.

If you really want to settle this, then first you need to agree on a set of traits that makes a Mary Sue, then see if Yukari fits that definition.

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Re: Who do you think is more Mary Sue-like than other in Touhou?
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2017, 01:06:38 pm »
Arguing about Mary Sue-ness is a massive waste of time tbh. That term is so ill-defined and everyone has their own definition of a Mary Sue. Might as well argue whose waifu is the best waifu.
This is true. I was hoping for this thread to go inactive quickly, but disappointingly it's led to some weird argument instead. Sure, the question had merits, but the results haven't been worth any of the effort. Just nigh-pointless bickering.

Carry on anyway lol.
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