Author Topic: Metroid discussion thread  (Read 7840 times)

Metroid discussion thread
« on: June 13, 2017, 06:45:03 PM »
Let's have a thread for Metroid discussion!  Topics are: hype, celebration, series discussion, what you've been playing, etc.



Nintendo announced briefly in their press conference that Metroid Prime 4 is in development with a short 5 second title screen.  (And they directly preceded it with the reminder that "during this presentation we will mostly be showing games that will release in 2017.")

Then, later, they revealed a full-on trailer for a Metroid 2 remake!  It releases in September for 3DS.

And while we're celebrating, let's also remember AM2R, the excellent 2D fan remake also for Metroid 2, was finally finished and released last year.





Thread music.



Share the hype.  Anyone going to play some Metroids in celebration, new or old?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 06:47:55 PM by dosboot »

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 10:15:18 PM »
So from what I've heard, the new 2D Metroid (Hereby to be referred to as the new metroid coz Prime is fake) is being made by a group called Mercury Steam, who are apparently kinda no good? What's the deal with them?

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 10:40:48 PM »
god I love Metroid I've been waiting TOO LONG for a new good Samus-starring one

As for Mercury Steam, I looked it up. It's because they made Castlevania Lords of Shadow, which was quite divisive and had a bunch of criticism for straying from the series rooms. I'm still optimistic about Samus Returns, though; the combat looks like a neat twist on things imo

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 10:41:32 PM »
As far as my knowledge goes, they made Scrapland, which was a staggeringly mediocre game saved by American McGee. Their next effort, Jericho, apparently elicited highly mixed opinions, but again, the game owes a lot of its appeal to Clive Baker. But that was a long while ago and I don't have any experience with their more recent Castlevania games.
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 10:47:35 PM »
As for Mercury Steam, I looked it up. It's because they made Castlevania Lords of Shadow

You don't want to know how long and painfully I groaned.

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 02:35:43 AM »
Besides MercurySteam, the team seems to be directed by Sakamoto, which gives some decent chance for success. From the loads of Treehouse footage, the game looks pretty good so far. Some of the features like the map pins are something I've been looking for in Metroid for ages (maybe they stole it from AM2R lol). Speaking of AM2R, this makes it much more obvious as to why Nintendo C&D'd it so hard (besides "being Nintendo"). They were literally lining up the same game themselves.

As a story-related thing, I also appreciate the switch of the mysterious earthquakes in M2 to the more concrete Chozo-built gates. As far as I'm seeing it gives the implication that the Chozo (as they do) used this technology to perhaps lock the Metroids (and the X) inside the planet. It being Metroid DNA that unlocks the gates also ties in nicely to Fusion.


I also don't think it was mentioned here yet, but Retro is confirmed to not be working on Prime 4. This makes me slightly uneasy for obvious reasons, but it's been stated that it's a new development team working on it, which although it doesn't give the security and reliability of Retro, it's a lot more interesting and has the potential to be very good. Much better than using a dev team with a poor history. It's also being directed by Tanabe of course, whether that's seen as a good thing or not.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 02:37:44 AM by Drake »

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 02:50:44 AM »
Why the heck even make it a Prime game then?  What's even left other than trying to make a cashgrab from fans chomping at the bit for another game of that ilk?

I will withhold judgement until actual gameplay is revealed, but this makes me uncomfortable.
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 02:59:49 AM »
I'm also curious about there being another Prime game at all since Phazon should be completely eradicated from the universe at this point (Phazon was the defining element of that series, after all). Unless they plan to retcon something about the end of Prime 3, which did admittedly feel like a pretty sudden resolution to everything, so maybe there's room there for something like that. Haven't seen too much of the Metroid 2 reveal just yet, but even as someone who mainly only played the Prime games, I'm looking forward to this one and hope it does well.
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 03:17:53 AM »
I missed the gameplay demos so I didn't hear about them replacing the earthquakes.  I do like the speculation about Metroid DNA though.

I also don't think it was mentioned here yet, but Retro is confirmed to not be working on Prime 4. This makes me slightly uneasy for obvious reasons, but it's been stated that it's a new development team working on it, which although it doesn't give the security and reliability of Retro, it's a lot more interesting and has the potential to be very good. Much better than using a dev team with a poor history. It's also being directed by Tanabe of course, whether that's seen as a good thing or not.

I would agree that there is something intriguing about the potential of a brand new team working on 3D Metroid.  It suggests taking out a blank sheet of paper, and we are reminded of the relatively unknown Retro circa 2000.  Ever since Zelda: BOTW I've heard people pitch "open air Metroid on a new planet", and that's not the only direction one can imagine Metroid going.

This also means Retro's secret project is still secret, and I have hopes for a 3rd revival from them...


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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 03:29:51 AM »
I'm also curious about there being another Prime game at all since Phazon should be completely eradicated from the universe at this point (Phazon was the defining element of that series, after all).
Lack of Phazon is a good point, but as far as I'm taking it, it being "Prime 4" is mostly a project title and something more useful to show the aesthetic and feel of what the game aims to be, which are the things the fans are excited for. When I hear "Prime" I think 3D first-person with Prime-like controls, focus on scan visor and gleaning information from it, the kind of platforming we expect from Prime, etc. I don't think the plot is an important factor at all at this point.

Why the heck even make it a Prime game then?  What's even left other than trying to make a cashgrab from fans chomping at the bit for another game of that ilk?
So if Retro doesn't do it then it's a cashgrab? I totally feel the uneasy sentiment of "what if it's bad" from the lack of security in the team, but suggesting it's just a cashgrab seems totally backwards to me. Federation Force was abuse of the Prime title, but the reason for that is because it doesn't evoke the same elements of Prime to begin with. Given literally the only information shown was that it's going to be Prime 4, I expect that is what they are going for.

Heck, given the age of the Prime series at this point, this team could easily be made up of people who grew up playing and appreciating the games.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 03:31:23 AM by Drake »

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 03:42:27 AM »
Lack of Phazon is a good point, but as far as I'm taking it, it being "Prime 4" is mostly a project title and something more useful to show the aesthetic and feel of what the game aims to be, which are the things the fans are excited for. When I hear "Prime" I think 3D first-person with Prime-like controls, focus on scan visor and gleaning information from it, the kind of platforming we expect from Prime, etc. I don't think the plot is an important factor at all at this point.
That is also a good point, the gameplay style of the Prime series is pretty distinctive within the Metroid franchise too. And while I didn't mention it above, there's still the very likely possibility Prime 4 will simply use different plot-related things (old or new) instead of Phazon, with the main connection to the original trilogy being the core gameplay as you mentioned.
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 04:07:47 AM »
Stuff I noticed about Anoher Metroid 2 Remake Remake which can easily change in the two months before the game comes out: 

(Everything is assumed that they're on Normal difficulty)
-Missile Tanks only expand the capacity by 3 now. Given that you typically only need ~100 out of the 250 missiles at average skill to clear every game, this seems like a way to get people looking for more than they would normally have to to hit saturation.
-A Super Missile tank gave them five missiles. This was the first one they picked up, so maybe it only acts like that when you find them for the first time.
-One hit from the Zeta Metroid did a whopping 105 damage WITH the Varia Suit on. My guess is that this can't be any further than 25%~50% through the game, this is a considerable amount of damage for this point in any other 2D Metroid. Aspiring low percenters beware.
-The Ice Beam, even uncharged, WILL harm Metroids if shot at their weak point. AM2R tries to handwave this away and forces you to use missiles all the way through, but Nintendo brings this back in line, given that the same uncharged beam can damage the Omega Metroid in Fusion, so another plus for this game.

Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 11:19:25 AM »
About Prime 4 and lack of Phazon - that is totally a thing, but there are still some unresolved bits they were throwing around that can still be expanded on. Like for one example, what the heck was Sylux doing in the endings of multiple games. If it was only one game, I could see some people thinking it was a one-off thing, but instead it seems more like they were deliberately setting something up. Another example, though a bit more questionable (it could have been an oversight) is that Phazon was still present in Samus's arm cannon in the ending sequence of Corruption, after the destruction of Phaaze and the disappearance of Phazon elsewhere. This may or may not be a thing that was done intentionally to lead into something else.

And there's a bit of a disagreement on this in the Metroid community, but in my honest opinion, I feel like Hunters was a good Prime game in its own way, despite being rather different than the others. If it wasn't more focused on multiplayer, I feel that it could have been more fleshed out and perhaps fit in better with the others. But as it were, the original Prime system does not make for very good or long-lived multiplayer, as seen in Echoes - and Hunters did not end up making for a particularly memorable singleplayer. So I guess it was one or the other, and they went for multiplayer focus.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that there was no Phazon present in Hunters either, and Sylux is from said game. Considering he has made appearances in multiple endings now, it's possible they may have something in mind that does not directly involve Phazon. What this means for Prime 4, I don't know. But no matter what's the case, I'm really looking forward to this one.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 11:25:30 AM by Rei Scarlette »

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 04:41:37 PM »
Heck, given the age of the Prime series at this point, this team could easily be made up of people who grew up playing and appreciating the games.
I'd just like to give a reality check for the Retro studio thing here. The original trilogy was released from 2002 to 2007 (oof that makes me feel old). It's been ten years since Retro made a Metroid game. As much as I want to see the quality that's expected of a Metroid game from Retro, the staff there now is probably vastly different. Ten years is a quarter of a person's career, and there are less than 100 people in the company. The people who worked on the original games may have been promoted, switched companies, been laid off, or simply retired over that time span. Retro's done Donkey Kong and Mario Kart since, too, so they've really shifted focus since 3 came out. There are a ton of other factors to consider so far as hardware, software, experience, and other resources are concerned, too.

Ultimately, Retro just may not be the studio for the job at this time. It would be best to see who is making the game before evaluating the potential quality of the finished product. It's fully within the realm of possibility that people who worked on the original titles will be brought in to help develop 4, too. So for now, I'm a bit apprehensive but understand that Retro is not the same bunch of people it was back then. Still, I doubt Nintendo would want to half-ass this and think they'll pull in the right team for the job.

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2017, 06:11:53 PM »
Video Dev Diary with Yoshio Sakamoto on Metroid: Samus Returns

This is a preproduced 6 min video going over some gameplay details.  It starts by giving context for the game and the remake, then starts covering what's new: free aim, melee counters, and aeion charge. 

The last ability depletes a boost meter to powerup one of Samus' abilities.  It almost sounded like a new take on hypermode from Prime 3, but so far it doesn't seem so rigidly tied to existing abilities:  you can boost your weapon into a machine gun-like beam, you can boost your sensors into a radar pulse (reveals all nearby squares on your map, and highlights breakable blocks on your current screen), and you can use boost to create a lightning shield to negate damage and enemy attacks.  They show Samus using the last ability to run through what looks like a thorny environment, ala running through heated rooms with your Varia suit in other games.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:02:29 AM by dosboot »

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 02:23:00 AM »
I'd just like to give a reality check for the Retro studio thing here. The original trilogy was released from 2002 to 2007 (oof that makes me feel old). It's been ten years since Retro made a Metroid game. As much as I want to see the quality that's expected of a Metroid game from Retro, the staff there now is probably vastly different. Ten years is a quarter of a person's career, and there are less than 100 people in the company. The people who worked on the original games may have been promoted, switched companies, been laid off, or simply retired over that time span. Retro's done Donkey Kong and Mario Kart since, too, so they've really shifted focus since 3 came out. There are a ton of other factors to consider so far as hardware, software, experience, and other resources are concerned, too.

Ultimately, Retro just may not be the studio for the job at this time. It would be best to see who is making the game before evaluating the potential quality of the finished product. It's fully within the realm of possibility that people who worked on the original titles will be brought in to help develop 4, too. So for now, I'm a bit apprehensive but understand that Retro is not the same bunch of people it was back then. Still, I doubt Nintendo would want to half-ass this and think they'll pull in the right team for the job.
Absolutely agree. This is also why I mentioned that Tanabe being producer could be a good or a bad thing -- obviously he did manage the whole of the Prime series and otherwise has a great portfolio, which lends him much credence, but Sticker Star, Paper Jam, and Federation Force are not a particularly good recent history. It doesn't help that what his influence as producer even is, is not clearly visible.

@dosboot: The shield ability actually just switches from taking regular damage to depleting your Aeion meter, so it's different in that respect. Personally my mind goes immediately to potential use in speedrunning.

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 07:14:54 PM »
Another interview with Yoshio Sakamoto.

I thought this bit was interesting in particular.
Quote
CGM: It?s been a long time since we?ve seen a 2D Metroid game, and in that time since, the Metroidvania genre has completely exploded specifically on the indie scene.  With a lot of different ideas coming out from there I was wondering if you?ve been keeping tabs on that, or if you think that was one of the founders of that genre, it?s up to you to push kind of push it forward more?

Sakamoto: Yeah I?m well aware of?the abundance [of games in the] the Metroidvania genre. I know there are a lot, but I haven?t played them, it however, one thing I think we?ve learned from that is, there?s a need for this there?s a thirst for that genre. People are excited about the genre, and so from a marketing stand point, understanding that that market exists, it?s been helpful to have all of those people clamoring for them. And it really solidified the ability of this desire to creating another 2D Metroid game.

I can't remember if Nintendo has commented on the genre/the indie scene directly before.  You could read this and conclude that the popularity of Metroid inspired games by indies helped push the creation of another 2d Metroid, rather than being a disincentive (a common fear that fans would wonder about in these conversations.).

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 03:22:04 AM »
anyone else played samus returns yet?

personally i thought it was an excellent return to form after Other M was... Other M

really enjoyed both the updated stuff and new stuff, hype for prime 4

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 01:06:43 PM »
I've been having a blast with Samus Returns. Free aiming and the melee counterattack felt natural almost immediately; I see why gaming media's been praising the controls for a while. I appreciate the fact that they lifted some of the audio straight from Super and the Primes, since it made for a cute and fitting touch without drowning us in it. The music, such as it is, is wonderfully atmospheric and really fits the "dark underground exploration of unknown terrors" theme, and the major actual-music tracks from other games that they chose to remix for this one (
Spoiler:
Lower Norfair/Magmoor Caverns, Red Brinstar/Hydro Dynamo, and Crateria from the original game/Zero Mission
are the ones I've run across so far) were done very well. The fights, minor and major, are quite creative and challenging, though the game suffers a bit in the difficulty department by sticking a temporary autosave before pretty much anything difficult (BotW Syndrome, I suppose).
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 02:28:47 PM »
Another player of Samus Returns here, about time I got it, too. So many folks I'm subscribed to on Youtube are posting stuff of it and I refuse to view any of it. I'd much rather experience the differences between it and Metroid II first hand.
Making decent headway, reached the sector that I always called sector 4, but since the sequencing in Metroid II has always been debatable, so: It's the place with 10 Metroids, notorious for being the biggest, most labyrinthine and graphics-recycling zone of them all in the original.
New Aeion abilities (just got my third) are very cool and I also like that
Spoiler:
there are minor differences even between the same Metroid evolutions, some Alphas have fire attacks for example. Also clever to have the Ice Beam affect them, because how did it make any sense that it didn't before?
I wonder how it is to speedrun, and if 3 hours is the best ending threshold as it tradtionally is. If so, that's a harsh limit, as I'm already past it  :D. I imagine you fight almost nothing when you're dedicated against the clock. As OP as many claim the melee counter is, you do always stop and have your enemies make a move for it. This I feel also makes it the least run & gun Metroid so far.

The fights, minor and major, are quite creative and challenging, though the game suffers a bit in the difficulty department by sticking a temporary autosave before pretty much anything difficult (BotW Syndrome, I suppose).

BotW Syndrome is right, because I'd say this is also the most lethal Metroid yet, or maybe on par with parts of Fusion. Samus can die very quickly, it's pretty shocking when attacks cost almost a full E-Tank, even in the early game.
People often say that modern devs are a little too soft-handed, but this game would be quite punishing without its checkpoint system. An idea would be to have it gone in the unlockable difficulties.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:33:31 PM by Gesh86 »

Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 02:44:42 PM »
This game is definitely taking up Nintendo's attempt to "Dark Souls" the stuff they have, for better or worse. Gammas do over 100 damage to Samus WITH the (~24%?) damage reduction on the Varia Suit, and this isn't even anywhere close to the end of the game.

I've 100%'ed it already but I can definitely say this is probably the least speedrun-friendly Metroid yet. It seems they cut out most conventional speedrun strats in favor of atmosphere and story, which they definitely got the equivalent trade for. The price that was paid is a very straightforward progression, no sequence breaks that I know of (I have heard of like two skippable items, but this doesn't let you go to areas much earlier since they are locked behind metroid kills), the most nerfed walljump I have ever seen, and bomb jumping to stuff you shouldn't have access always seems to just be missiles rather than something like unintended progression or an early item.

EDIT: It seems 0% runs are possible, but this doesn't actually change how the game is played, since base upgrades do not add to percent. So it is basically Fusion with a bit of its own charm rather than the standard.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:57:54 PM by OverlordChirei »

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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 03:32:33 PM »
I have also since 100%ed the game and boy howdy does it seem like a total bitch to speedrun it. OTOH GDQs always end with 3-5 hours of an RPG so it's not like long runs are unheard of (sup FF7), even in prime time slots. I'd love to see this at SGDQ 2018, or even AGDQ 2018 if we have a repeat of the BotW/Orcastraw situation.
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 11:51:22 PM »
I have also since 100%ed the game and boy howdy does it seem like a total bitch to speedrun it. OTOH GDQs always end with 3-5 hours of an RPG so it's not like long runs are unheard of (sup FF7), even in prime time slots. I'd love to see this at SGDQ 2018, or even AGDQ 2018 if we have a repeat of the BotW/Orcastraw situation.

I think some people have gotten it down to 2 hours, I'm just curious if it'll be entertaining to watch. So far the biggest deviator I know of is that
Spoiler:
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Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 09:26:34 PM »
I've been playing a lot of Super Metroid lately.  I thought about attempting a challenge run or speedrun, but currently I'm having the most fun learning and using those sorts of advanced tricks in "regular" runs.  Nothing is better than gratuitous use of mockball all day every day.  I still can't get the hang of continuous wall jumps along a single wall, still need more practice I guess.  I'm more confident against Phantoon and Ridley than ever now though.  It's been a while since I felt like "let's just continuously clear the game over and over back-to-back", and it feels great to get into those old grooves.

Random observation(?):  Super Metroid sure does have the largest number of "friendly" critters in a Metroid game.  Either that or perhaps I'm just paying more attention in this particular game.  The Etecoons and Dachoras come from this game obviously, and in Maridia you've got that industrious Sand Driller robot leading to the Spring ball, and the family of Turtles in one of the large underwater rooms.  I'm not sure if I should include the R2-D2-like worker robots in this list or not, since they do shoot projectiles periodically.  Still they aren't overtly aggressive or hostile to the touch.

As an aside, it does make me wonder about the possibilities for Metroid Prime 4.  It'd be interesting to see a different balance of hostile and non-hostile life on whatever planet we'll be exploring.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 09:28:57 PM by dosboot »

Re: Metroid discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 02:13:32 AM »
This was interesting to watch: Zoasty recently tied the world record for Super Metroid with a time 41:33 and posted a side-by-side comparison with commentary.  What's amazing is how incredible close the runs are, about a single frame different in the end.  In the video, you get to watch them start out in near perfect sync, then diverge (and later reconverge) as they perform slightly different strats, make mistakes and get different boss encounters, tricks, etc..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGy-CrcV1c
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:18:53 AM by dosboot »