Topic: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery  (Read 28932 times)

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2017, 12:32:26 pm »
That's like objecting to calling Yuyuko a ghost because she looks nothing like Casper.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2017, 12:47:36 pm »
I opened a can of worms, didn't I...?

Before this spread further, my question was whether we follow Yen Press' translations or keep using the ones we've been using. This isn't limited to 'kobito', but also other possible differences.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2017, 12:59:33 pm »
I honestly don't think it matters one way or another, although people who manage to get into Touhou through their translations might be a little confused at first if the current fandom doesn't accept the new terminology.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2017, 04:37:42 pm »
So is Suika a Japanese goblin yet?

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2017, 04:49:39 pm »
So is Suika a Japanese goblin yet?

Ahaha that would be hilarious. I don't know anything about Japanese, but wouldn't Oni be something like " demon " or " ogre " if they have to translate it ?

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2017, 05:35:44 pm »
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2017, 12:58:11 am »
Crow Sky Dog Reporter, Aya Shameimaru

They might go with "Sky Elf" if they don't want to sound ridiculously silly.
Speaking of which, at least they're not going the 4Kids route of butchering all things non-American. :V

Adding to that...
Kappa > goblins
Youkai > monsters
Youma books > evil/demon tomes
Umatsuki > horse-head phantom

That's all I got at the moment...
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2017, 01:29:16 am »
Honestly.... I never understood why some things were translated as they are in the first place. Certain things like Amanojaku or Kappa or Tengu have no obvious western equivalent, but really, what's wrong with translating "youkai" as "monster"? They pretty much have the same connotation, especially with things like pokemon and monster rancher being popular in the west...

It's even funnier, since we translate certain things, like Inchling, Celestial, or Hermit, which have pretty different connotations than the original word. Not that I'm suggesting these get changed, it's just kind of like, why get so worked up if someone has an equally valid, just different interpretation of a word?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 01:32:12 am by TresserT »
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2017, 02:16:13 am »
As an Asian, what connotations do 'hermit' have in the West? I've always thought of them as those guys who train in some secluded places to get superpowers.

What's the original words for Celestial and Lunarians again?

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2017, 02:27:47 am »
In the west, hermit really just means someone who secludes themselves from the rest of the world. Think, like, hermit crab. They hide in their shells. The word has a somewhat religious meaning, sometimes. It does describe people like Miko very well, it just doesn't exactly have quite the same meaning as the original word.

Celestial is Tennin (天人). I'm no translator at all, mind you. It's just that Celestial has connotations in English that don't really apply to touhou Celestials. Celestial usually refers either to space, such as the planets or stars, or godly beings. Like, "Holy Being" or "Angel" give a similar impression, I think. If you're using it in the second sense, it's a pretty Christian thing.

Lunarian is Tsukibito (月人), which I think probably gets the same point across.

And again, not that I'm really trying to argue that these words should be changed, cause they do get across the point pretty well. It's the opposite, actually, I think it's silly that someone would say "translating youkai into monster is dumb", since monster is close enough to youkai, just like how celestial is close enough to tennin and hermit is close enough to sennin. It feels kind of like a double standard, almost.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 02:57:12 am by TresserT »
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2017, 03:16:43 am »
In English, Nemuno would be considered a hermit, by the most common definition of the word. It doesn't imply "training" at all, just isolation. Similarly, someone who trained in secluded place but then rejoined society would no longer be a hermit, so it doesn't describe someone like Kasen very well, since she seems quite social and goes on walks through town and whatnot.

Monster has specific negative connotations that youkai doesn't, imo. Like, if you call someone a monster, that means something very specific. And you can do this in Japanese too! Calling someone a bakemono is very different from calling someone a youkai. So while in some circumstances monster could work, I don't think it's a good universal term for a series that uses it constantly.

What I find particularly interesting here is that Nintendo kept the word Yokai in Yokai Watch, targeted towards kids. So there's actually a push by a large company to turn yokai into a word that people might be familiar with in English. It also shows up in other Western works like Big Hero 10, and this indie game I just bought the other day called Starcrawlers, which has Cyberninjas come from the starship Yokai. The point being that I wouldn't be too surprised if Yen Press leaves it as yokai.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 03:20:22 am by Clarste »

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2017, 05:34:42 am »
but really, what's wrong with translating "youkai" as "monster"? They pretty much have the same connotation, especially with things like pokemon and monster rancher being popular in the west...
Mainly because youkai typically refer to a certain kind of fictional creature. Touhou has kind of worked it to become its own thing but I think it's identifiable enough that a generic "monster" loses something and also gains unnecessary connotations. I also agree that the fact Yo-kai Watch exists gives it some decent precedence and personally I hope the trend continues.

And speaking of other series that give precedence to specific terms, the fact that Naruto has 仙人 translated as Hermit (ignoring that it also is called Sage in different contexts...) is probably one reason it's somewhat acknowledged. Again though, Touhou re-interprets the cultural expectation of what a "hermit" is and makes it its own, leading to our two main icons of hermits in the series each not really filling those cultural expectations.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 05:37:19 am by Drake »

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2017, 03:48:01 am »
That's like objecting to calling Yuyuko a ghost because she looks nothing like Casper.

Not really, Ghosts have a pretty far reaching range in terms of depiction in fiction. You have some that look like Casper. But then you have ones that look like normal human beings like The Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future.

Gnomes have always looked like small guys with red hats. Never anything else. And Sukuna is Japanese, Gnomes are British. It would be like calling Aya an Harpie.
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2017, 03:46:01 pm »
I really hope the translation will be done by someone who is familiar with the universe, or else I think there'll be many nonsensical things or translated terms that "shouldn't" really be translated, to me, like Youkai. Well, I guess it'd be logical to translate them, it'd just feel off to me.

I, for one, look forward to more "Akyu Hieda" and "Kokoro Hata". Yes, I know these have already been in NISA's localization.

What's wrong with Hata no Kokoro and Hieda no Akyu(u)? Honest question, since you're not the first person I see say something like this.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 03:52:06 pm by Flandre5carlet »
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2017, 05:54:59 pm »
What's wrong with Hata no Kokoro and Hieda no Akyu(u)? Honest question, since you're not the first person I see say something like this.

For the "no" issue, it's kind of...well, it more or less means that Akyuu is "Akyuu of the Hieda [Clan]." It's a hold-over from old Japan where aristocrats would be "of the [clan name]" instead of it being a proper surname. Names don't really work that way in English, and it'd be incredibly awkward to write out "of the" every time, so you wind up with "[Clan Name] no [First Name]." 

The reason why the Touhou Wiki keeps it over is a belief in a literal translation over a liberal one by some translators, which is the ever-present ideological divide going on behind any sufficiently large fan translation effort, especially for open-source wikis. This is a case where it sounds super awkward in english, so I fully expect yen press to simply make all names first last, including all the various aristrocat conventions (like miko and futo).

Inconsistencies between the official localization and the wiki like that are just going to be part and parcel with this release, since the wiki's such a multi-headed hydra that's been added to over the years by so many various contributors of varying beliefs on the literal vs liberal translation and varying skill levels. I'm glad it's there, and it's a good resource, but I wouldn't be surprised if yen press outright ignores its existence when doing their TL effort due to the prior mentioned issues.

As for the random us getting removed - I believe it's because they're silent or something along those lines? So that's why you'll see things like Akyu instead of Akyuu, Yuka instead of Yuuka, or Sho instead of Shou. This is a bit more subjective as far as I understand it, so who knows how yen press will handle it.

Quote
Gnomes have always looked like small guys with red hats. Never anything else.

Err, no. Their traits have changed over the years to suit various authors, but the one constant in almost all works of fiction that use the term "gnome" is that they've always been tiny humanoid beings whom live underground. A garden gnome (short dudes in red hats that you're thinking of) might be the most iconic image for many individuals, but it's more akin to a sub-class of the idea of a gnome (in fact, garden gnomes themselves are a relatively recent introduction to the western canon). In this case, if they didn't want to go with inchling or kobito, the term gnome would perfectly fit what Sukuna's race is (small humanoids whom live underground).

small edit but i do hope they stick with inchling or kobito because gnome still sounds really dumb in comparison even if it does fit.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 07:22:31 pm by nyttyn »

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2017, 06:08:28 pm »
Akyu von Hieda
Moko von Fujiwara
Futo von Mononobe

(this joke)

The main thing is that there's basically no reason to represent in English the extended vowels. The difference in pronunciation is so subtle that it's just not going to happen.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:10:33 pm by D-T »

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2017, 06:10:54 pm »
Well, I mean, I know what the no stands for, I'm just wondering why some think First/Last is preferable, whether keeping the "no" or switching to some sort of English equivalent such as "of the."

I suppose names don't work that way in English, and that's fair - but the way I see it, these aren't English names, they're Japanese names. They're not necessarily supposed to work the same, and I think translating them to simply First/Last loses part of the name's meaning. It might be because English isn't my primary language, but I don't really see "Akyuu of the Hieda (clan)" as any particularly clumsier than "Hieda no Akyuu" either - to me both simply sound old and archaic.
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2017, 06:40:57 pm »
They aren't supposed to work the same, no, but there's a lot of nuances in Japanese that don't really come over into english. We don't use honorifics in english at all, for example - sometimes there are english titles that are suited to replace the honorific in question, but you aren't going to add a Mr for every -san, for example, because english just doesn't flow well if it's Mr or Miss XYZ every time their name comes up.

Most localizations do not attempt to keep things like "X no Y" because...well, there's technically a meaning, but it's ultimately an small one that's completely lost when you try to shoe-horn it into english. Like, take Akyuu for example - Forbidden Scrollery is already able to convey she's utterly loaded and a person of high import pretty well through things like the villagers turning to her for guidance, and her able to casually have books printed in a setting where this is established as being utterly expensive. Making her "Akyuu of the Hieda" or "Hieda no Akyuu" means utterly nothing to a english reader picking up forbidden scrollery without a knowledge of japanese terminology, and if anything will just read awkwardly to them, all to convey a point that the rest of FS already emphasizes pretty well.

Take Miko as another example. She's already referred to as "Crown Prince" (or Princess, in NISA's case), and is already reveled by a lot of followers in just about all of her appearances. This already gets the point across, and in a way that makes sense in english - she could even be referred to as "Lord Miko" or "Lady Miko" or the like and, again, point would be made without the need for a name structure that's bizarre and meaningless in english without outside context or translators notes.

These are the kind of concerns that aren't really important to a fan translation effort, due to the much smaller and devoted audience who will care about this sort of thing, but are much more important to a official localization effort like this which will be aiming to be sold to more casual readers who may be put off by confusing or awkward terminology or structure that means nothing in english without context they're never going to bother looking up, which can be nigh-impossible! Like, seriously. Go ahead and try googling "japanese of the name" or "japanese no name" or "why do japanese names have no in them" or something like that, you're not going to get anywhere anytime fast without digging considerably deeply, way deeper than most people can be bothered to do.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2017, 08:17:29 pm »
As for the random us getting removed - I believe it's because they're silent or something along those lines? So that's why you'll see things like Akyu instead of Akyuu, Yuka instead of Yuuka, or Sho instead of Shou. This is a bit more subjective as far as I understand it, so who knows how yen press will handle it.

It's because the 'ou' romanization means a large "oo" sound in Japanese (rather than silent).
The same reason you say "To-oho-o" (or something along the lines) and not "tou hou". I don't really remember why this was romanised like that.

This is somewhat an 'important' matter on Japanese language. For example, "shufu" (主婦) meanse "housewife", while "shuufu" (醜婦) means "ugly woman".
We can spend a day like this, there're tons of words with this issue.

Still not sure at all about the "u" thing tho. Maybe it is about English pronunciation or something similar? I don't really know but would be great if someone could enlighten me there.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:36:26 pm by Plubio »
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2017, 08:34:42 pm »
It was romanized as Touhou because romanizing it as Toohoo leads to people pronouncing it as two who. (Hence the somewhat common "2hu" shorthand.)
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2017, 09:07:44 pm »
To be honest we have been quite inconsistent with the 'u's. Shouldn't "Gensokyo" be "Gensoukyou" yet nobody actually writes Gensoukyou. I mean should we not at least use a line above the O or something?

I mean, I'll probably be the first to complain about the translation but I'm ok with things like "Kokoro Hata" and "Mokou Fujiwara" as I pretty much already refer to them like that anyway. I still want fandom consistent translations (I'd straight up prefer them) but I'm ok with a bit of leeway. I'll probably have a problem with something though - I always do.
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2017, 09:30:20 pm »
It was romanized as Touhou because romanizing it as Toohoo leads to people pronouncing it as two who. (Hence the somewhat common "2hu" shorthand.)

Oh, no. I wasn't talking about Touhou there sorry if it looked like that.
I was talking about "oo" sound being "ou", not just on the Touhou case.

EDIT: eh. I just realised it was romanized as "ou" because Japanese people write those sounds as "ou" as well.
I'm so stupid.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 12:27:46 am by Plubio »
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2017, 02:17:32 am »
There are several ways to romanize elongated vowels, some more arbitrary than others, but I prefer going on a case-by-case basis personally. I try to include as many as possible unless it has a greater potential for mispronunciation. It's why I've tended towards "yokai" instead of "youkai" as of late.

And thanks for having my back nyttyn. I don't have much time to argue my points this week, heh.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2017, 03:39:17 am »
In Thai's official release of FS, the no in Akyuu's name is kept as is. Only the tone marks are restricted here and there. Admittedly, it was the admin who translates it but the publisher still mess with his translation for no good reason.

In my (maybe stupid) opinion, what's wrong with awkward-to-read name anyway? There are people with von or de in their name or just have a really long middle name, yet those are kept but Japanese names are cut off? What kind of double standard is this?

I think it is buyer's own fault for picking up a Japanese manga and not knowing it's a JAPANESE manga. No offense, but I think it is yet another case of "We don't understand Japanese terminology cuz we outside readers have been living under the rocks and not knowing Japanese honorifics/terminology exists." or "We know they exist but we won't bother to learn/ask/acknowledge it for our own convenience."

Thailand is a part of Asian, yes but we don't have anything in common with Japanese. In anime or manga like Doraemon, people can just read names like Nobita-san or Dorayaki without problems so why the western is the only one with problems like this? It just baffles me.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2017, 03:58:55 am »
Kokoro Hatano
Akyu Hiedano

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2017, 05:10:28 am »
A thought, now I'm kind of wondering how they'll handle the relationship with the overarching setting. It's easy when the fandom will implicitly know things, but the current-event ties to the games, other works, along with any previous knowledge, isn't going to be there for unfamiliar readers. It isn't like FS is all that self-contained. Margin comments can do some of the work but clearly to a wider audience 90% of the characters won't make much sense. Is there going to be a case where it'll be like "look into the original works lol!!!" or what

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2017, 10:14:10 am »
-snip-

Those are fair points, but at the end of the day I just kind of fail to see why it's big enough of a deal that the translation should pretty much change the character's name for the sake of simplicity.

As was said before me, as an example, we have German characters (whether in Japanese works or in other languages) whose name include the German equivalent of that no: Von. Those don't get translated though, I have no memory of a work where a character's name was altered to drop that Von altogether. It's kept and it's up to the reader to look up "Hey why do those three German characters all have Von in their name" if they don't know what it means.

It's similar here - the only real difference being that with the way Japanese names work this reverses first name and surname. Nothing that can't be explained with a simple TL note or even a page of explanation at the end. Wouldn't nearly be the first time I've seen a manga localization with either of these things, I find that much more preferable than losing on authenticity by "translating" the name to drop the no altogether.
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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2017, 10:52:54 am »
Things get weirder with Miko. As far as I know, "Toyosatomimi" isn't even a family or clan name. It's a title, meaning something like "great ears".

So "Toyosatomimi no Miko" means "Miko the Great-Eared".

Even more complicated, "Miko" can also be taken as a title meaning "God's Child" instead of a name. So "Toyosatomimi no Miko" as a whole can be translated as "The Great-eared God Child".

In conclusion, ancient Japanese names and titles suck.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2017, 12:22:19 pm »
The end result of a localization isn't to 100% preserve every single nuance and detail, but to bring over all the important stuff and as many minor details as possible while still, well, localizing it. Doing things like changing jokes to still be pop references, but pop references that make sense in English.

This isn't a case of "changing someone's name," because they're still Kokoro Hata, Miko Toyosatomimi, and Akyuu Hieda, the important parts (the first and last name) are still all there. This is removing something that's already a minor detail in the source detail. As for why something like "von" tends to be kept - it's a question of it still being in use (and thus, being an actually relevant part of the name, unlike no which hasn't been used in ages), and perhaps more importantly, having been included in the western canon enough times that most people who've read at least a few books or watched a few shows with german influences get what the heck's up with a name with "von" in it.  That's the most important distinction here - von has context in western literature. No (at least, as a part of a name) does not, and thus is axed because it has no sense and no meaning as it has not been used in ages and was never used in the western canon, and thus has no context.

And TL's notes are a last resort, not a first, for things that simply cannot be conveyed otherwise. If every small detail that couldn't carry over 1:1 perfectly got a TL note, the margins would be utterly unreadable, or there'd be a enormous reference section at the back of the book that nobody wants to bother with. This isn't like, a history book or something - it's meant for entertainment, and that's why we're going to have these small liberties taken with the source material. You can feel it's stupid all you want, and that's totally fine! But come into this localization with tempered expectations, because it's again, a localization. It's going to include small changes like this where no real meaning is lost, because it's something that's utterly meaningless in english due to a lack of context. There's plenty of stuff that'll remind you this is Touhou and japanese (example: Kogasa. All of Kogasa.), so I wouldn't worry unless they start changing things like rice balls to jelly doughnuts.

That brings me back to the reason why Thailand's localization is different from, say, NISA's localization - because it's a different country, which has had far more exposure to Japanese media. You cannot expect a localization for Thailand to have the same translation as one for America and Canada (and any other english speaking country that can get a copy of this), because they have context due to cultural osmosis that the west does not.

Also Miko's name is based on an alias, which is why it's something dumb and absurd. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out Miko herself had chosen that name before awakening in Gensokyo for the sake of having as bombastic an entrance as possible.

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Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2017, 02:40:33 pm »
Fair enough, I still can't get over the fact about the lack of exposure of Japanese/Asian culture tho. I will always blame 4kids for pioneering the trend of denying Japan/Asia's existence in localization.


On another topic, I'm interested in how they are going to handle stuffs like;

Vol.1
- Youma book
- Marisa's way of talking
- Organ/Organic farming pun
- Youkai extermination (plz don't mess up this terminology)
- Names like Enenra, Night Parade picture scroll and Bunbuku Chagama

Vol. 2
- UMA or cryptids
- Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks: Noh of Darkness (either way, meaningless for non-HM players)
- Shinkirou (This is the most problematic of all.)
- Kutsutsura

That's all for the volumes they are planning to do.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 02:47:30 pm by Kageshirou »
 

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