Author Topic: Canon and Consistency  (Read 10876 times)

ZXNova

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Canon and Consistency
« on: April 09, 2017, 04:47:52 PM »

[moriya]Mod Note: This discussion was split off from the thread in Front-Page Headlines about Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia.[/moriya]

Why can't people accept that there's multiple aspects to a person's personality? Reimu isn't always gonna be a greedy shrine maiden that attacks youkai or fairies on sight. Sometimes she's gonna be kind to them. (i.e. in Oriental Sacred Place, a typhoon was brewing and Reimu told a nearby fairy to try to go home). It almost feels like some people want these characters to be flanderized or something. I never saw anything wrong with SoPM. It wasn't "contradictory" to me, in fact I don't even know what's contradictory about it. Only thing I can guess is people complaining about Nitori not being some special and pure snowflake, or Momiji being gosh golly good friends with Aya or something. Sounds like stupid waifu'ism to me.

Speaking of which, I really like this book. I heard that in this book you can learn about some upcoming information on future games. Any info on that?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:12:30 PM by Suwako Moriya »

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Because it reflects the divide between people who actually delve into the written works, and the people who skim them/disregard them. Anyone who's been following the written works closely can attest that a great many of the main characters have fluid, vibrant personalities that will reflect inconsistencies sometimes - just like people do. But taking all that written material into consideration is a great deal of work for some, which, fair enough I guess, but that doesn't mean we need to adhere to a very simplified, one-dimensional view of our different characters here. We can just as easily assume they are changeable and flawed and inconsistent as we can that they are static and simple.

Ultimately, when offical works clash with long-prevailing fan interpretations of characters, the result is some people will be disapppointed, and others will be kinda shruggo about it. Tbh I'd say good riddance to any kind of fan who wanted to maintain a one-dimensional collection of magic girls, and I applaud Kancolle for siphoning away some of the worst aspects of the fanbase.

I also must take exception with anyone who thinks Aya is a shitty journalist. I've used her interviews as templates for training interns before. I wouldn't recommend some of her methods but her interviewing style is exactly right.

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I still disagree that a significant amount of our fanbase being "siphoned off" is a good thing. I don't even think porn was affected that much - it probably went at the same ratio. We lost a lot of creative talent and I think their fan works were a good thing. Everybody has their own Gensokyo and I think that the amount of variety in how people built theirs was only a good thing for the fanbase. Like in the same way you can find a touhou song in almost any genre - you can find many different perspectives on Gensokyo. I can't defend those who left us but I think you're fooling yourself if you think that only the worst of us left. While I don't have any respect for them I do think that losing their own gensokyos is certianly regrettable.

The idea of 1 dimensional characters is commonplace in today's fiction. It boggles the mind to find somthing different from normal so most people probably look for the path of least resistance. Usually in fiction we have a limited amount of time to get to know a person but by this point Reimu has been in games for longer than I've been alive so ZUN has used this as an opportunity to make the characters more realistic. Touhou is the only thing that I've seen do this though. I understand Reimu because I have a similar way of thinking. However those who see her as inconsistant will be confused as they think of her as a fictional character - as fictional characters generally don't get the time to flesh these personalities out. Touhou even seems to show different perspectives on Reimu in each official work. It seems inconsistant because people are inconsistant. Inconsistancy in fiction is rare so it shouldn't be too shocking that people can mistake it for a mistake at times. That's my opinion on it anyway. Like many people, the character depth is one of the reasons I like Touhou so much.
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I still disagree that a significant amount of our fanbase being "siphoned off" is a good thing. I don't even think porn was affected that much - it probably went at the same ratio. We lost a lot of creative talent and I think their fan works were a good thing. Everybody has their own Gensokyo and I think that the amount of variety in how people built theirs was only a good thing for the fanbase. Like in the same way you can find a touhou song in almost any genre - you can find many different perspectives on Gensokyo. I can't defend those who left us but I think you're fooling yourself if you think that only the worst of us left. While I don't have any respect for them I do think that losing their own gensokyos is certianly regrettable.

Touhou and the dumb ships have absolutely NOTHING to do with each other besides having a ton of girls. Anyone who completely dropped one for the other was probably just trying to cash in on its popularity and/or was never that much of a fan to begin with.

These "alternative gensokyos" you mentioned were more often than not the result of these people not knowing shit about Touhou, basically using the girls as stock characters. It's usually easy to tell when that's the case. The number of these kinds of fanworks has dropped significantly since the ships hit, but the number of works with at least some canon influence keeps increasing.

In short, nothing of value was lost. We just have a less inflated number of circles selling Touhou stuff at Comiket now.

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It wasn't "contradictory" to me, in fact I don't even know what's contradictory about it.
Is Koishi's heart eye opening (SA) or shut so tight most people can't remember her (SoPM)?  Do Shinigami collect immortals (SWR) or do they not (WaHH)?  Is the dragon palace on the moon (SoPM) or is it definitely not (CiLR)?  This isn't even getting into the fuzzier messes like what village youkai interaction is, (or even just what out of village youkai interaction is.)

It's kinda weird seeing this insistence that ZUN is a perfect creator who has never made a continuity mistake ever AND is super devoted to making his setting and characters consistent hyper-dimensional characters.  Again, his answer to if Aya has wings was "I don't know."  Not even taking the easy out with tengu shapeshifting.  "I don't know."  Or presumably really care.  He's one dude having the time of his life making games music and other stuff to suit his own whims.  And it's great and awesome.  Shit I'd love to have that job and I still don't think I'd be as happy as he is about it.  But its ridiculous to brush off every inconsistency with insults towards the people who point it out.

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I don't think people were saying ZUN was perfect and remembered every minor fact about his world, but to be more open-minded in regards to what may seem as contradictory or retconning.

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There's an old SNL sketch where William Shatner hosts a guest panel at a Star Trek convention. In it, he is bombarded with questions like, "What was the combination of the safe you opened in Episode 13 Season 2?" and the like. He doesn't know the answers to any of these questions, and exasperated, soon snaps and lashes out at these fans.

Point being, ZUN can't reasonably be expected to have covered every single detail of Gensokyo, the worlds related to it, and their inhabitants. There will be inconsistencies, and there will be things he never thought about or considered. At the same time, whether intentionally or not, his characters having inconsistencies actually does make them more realistic. I think so, anyway. I mean, we're all inconsistent as real and actual people. I don't think inconsistency in fictional characters should be at all strange or jarring, in light of this.

In any event, I sure didn't want to come across as insulting anyone over this. I just think a sense of perspective is important here, that's all.

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In any event, I sure didn't want to come across as insulting anyone over this. I just think a sense of perspective is important here, that's all.
Just please respect the perspectives of those who do feel there are inconsistencies.  This thread has been rather hostile to us, and honestly even these polite followups have included backhanded insults and vague arguments about how my opinion is wrong.

I'd like to, just once, say I prefer something from one game/book that was later contradicted without getting five replies questioning why I can't see ZUN's genius.

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P-Man (among others) could probably correct me on this, but in the wake of AWA 2013 and the volume of detail questions at the Q&A session, I came to learn that the idea of rigid canon adherence is far more of a Western thing than a Japanese thing. Part of the various inconsistencies may be due to ZUN not keeping perfect track of all the minutiae that he has provided before, but odds are at least part, if not most, of them coming from him just not caring if he contradicts himself on things that aren't important. This is why he's said before that (paraphrased) the true "canon" in the event of a contradiction is whatever happened most recently, and why he flat-out didn't understand the question when asked at I think AX 2016 if the PC-98 games were canon. (I always got the feeling, from his befuddled reaction, that he thought he was being asked if he did indeed actually make the PC-98 games. Like, if they were things that actually existed and he was the one specifically that made them exist.)

Things like Aya's wings and Momizi's ears may cause no end of consternation in the Western world, but I'd bet Pyonta that there's a contradiction and no definitive answer because, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. As far as he's concerned, there are far more important things to worry about, like what he can put into his next game/written work to make it interesting. This is (one of the handful of reasons) why "canon elitism" is dumb and why efforts to rationalize everything for world-building-and-exploring purposes (which are much different from canon elitism) are admirable but ultimately frustratingly futile.
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Well, this game happened.

I feel like that kind of mentality is a very slippery slope. While I'm not doubting ZUN's fallibility, looking at two things and immediately declaring that they're contradictory without giving it deep thought seems like it creates inconsistencies where there are none.
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Suwako Moriya

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You can see how much deep thought ZUN put into it when he declared the most recent events are canon by default. :V
The only thing this dimension does well is show its ass. We might as well applaud it! - Albert Burneko

Well, this game happened.

As an example (coming full circle): if you look at Reimu in WaHH vs Reimu in FS, you could say "she behaves extremely differently. ZUN is inconsistent with his characters." Or you could say "Reimu behaves differently around her friends (Kasen) than she does in public." Why should we assume that ZUN messed up here?
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Suwako Moriya

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I think you should reread this post for examples of objective contradictions that have nothing to do with anything nearly as fluid as character personalities.
The only thing this dimension does well is show its ass. We might as well applaud it! - Albert Burneko

Well, this game happened.

I disagree about some of those being contradictions, but like I said, I never called ZUN infallible. I'm just saying we shouldn't hastily say "one thing says one thing and another says another, therefor contradiction."

For example, Tenshi knows she's been attacked by agents from Hell. It's also a common misconception that you can fight Shinigami to prevent your death. It's possible that Tenshi thought she was fighting a Shinigami in the past, when in reality she was fighting a Kishin. And Komachi was simply lying to carry on that rumor (like she did with Kasen in WaHH).

Or it's also possoble that ZUN messed up and contradicted himself.

Another one- I know people are tired of me saying "Akyu isn't a reliable narrator", but she isn't. There are plenty of things she doesn't know about (such as Lunarians), has misconceptions about, and she has plenty of reason to lie about things. PMiSS is a book by a human villager for human villagers, and in her own words "you have to choose the truth that's best for you". To maintain Gensokyo's balance, she might purposefully misinterpret specifics (like how in FS she insists to Kosuzu that youkai are absolutely enemies, despite knowing the truth behind their relationship).

Things like EoSD taking place in an almost alternate version of Gensokyo, the reasoning behind why Imperishable Night even happened, the fact that ZUN himself said the Dragon Palace is on the Lunar Capital, no, I don't have any logic to answer those. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to think of reasons why ZUN did things like that. Maybe it was just a simple retcon. But I don't think that should be the default explanation.

Basically I'm saying you don't have to think about it if you don't want to, but don't act like the people who want to are making something out of nothing. It could be the other way around sometimes too- maybe sometimes people aren't connecting the dots just because they don't feel like it (Reimu's personality being the most blatant case).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 07:55:25 PM by TresserT »
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Hm, while ZUN do make mistakes, just like the next guy, sloppiness still seem a bit too much considering how overprotective he is when it comes to his series? lore and how much of a control maniac he is when it comes to canon material.

When it comes to the core elements of this series, canon is usually pretty solid and well rounded. If anything, official material that are blatantly incorrect or lead to unnecessary confusion are usually addressed directly and either corrected (ie : Reisen?s human status back in LoLK demo (iirc)) or simply dismissed as something that should be considered the same as any derivate work (ie : PC-98, Gold Rush). Now I ain?t no telepath, but I?d say that it might be a bit difficult to take into consideration every single detail from decade old works to the more recent ones. But even so, there is a certain recurring theme, some sort of general outline if you will, that is being respected : there are decades old material that are central to this series that are not only respected, but also explored (most blatant example being the youkai politics, which seems like an overreaction back in SSiB, more elaborated in SoPM, made obvious with DDC ? ISC and actually being explored in FS).

Now then, there are definitively plenty of ideas, points of interests, or simply details that get introduced with each new work. But the thing is? are these part of the core elements of the series or important elements of the work they are featured into ? Or are they just some sort of afterthought who just got thrown in there ? Because if it?s the latter, obviously it wouldn?t receive as much care as this series? core elements : they are pretty much secondary details that ZUN can afford to neglect / not stress over. And if THESE were going to get eventually explored? who says it won?t get clarified ? In any such eventuality, there should be various way of either downplaying potential discrepancies or simply write them off : for the case of the Dragon Palace for example, while it?s obviously based on Urashima Tarou, ZUN could go ahead and have someone say that the guy was completely mistaken, there is a Drapon Palace but he was not there. Likewise for the Shinigamis and the immortals : this issue got downplayed with Kasen pitying Mokou about being someone even the Shinigami won?t bother with, which leads to an open ended question imo. Now, my argument might come like ?it?s minor so who cares about mistakes?, which might a pretty cheap argument, but quite frankly? in the grand scheme of things, minor details?ll stay fairly irrelevant and might not even be explored? in which case overthinking about it would be a rather stressfull endeavor that ZUN can do without.

And when these pesky, stress inducing point of interests DO get explored? it?s straight up, rock solid foundations that you get. The Lunar Capital, for example, was simply described as some sort of super futuristic place and THAT WAS IT, in the past : in fact, it?s illustration in PMiSS (iirc) was more like some sort of super futuristic, sci-fi standards, metropolis than that of Japanese style building. But we got LoLK (stage 4), we even got some precisions regarding  how Lunar Capital infrastructure is like in an earlier work (can?t remember the work title, halp). Besides, the secondary details and point of interest are not restrictive, most of the time, anyway : they are pretty open ended and can be molded or tied to any subsequent work with relative ease *cough*CoLA?s content*cough*

To illustrate further on my point on the ?affordable oversights?, here?s one big elephant in the room? artistic discretion. We got no Touhou official manga / artbook / anything picturebook among us so this is a pretty obscure topic, but, going by the comments in the WaHH omakes (iirc ?!) and a ZUNterview regarding SSiB (iirc) here?s what I can gather? ZUN is enough of a control freak to ask what kind of expressions to put on the characters, BUT sloppy enough to have to forget to give Aki Eda precise instruction on how Toyohime?s WMD fan should be designed as ; ZUN didn?t especially care about the mob characters in presence, we actually get Seija chilling with Sekibanki in a WaHH chapter that was released pretty close after ISC got published, in other words, pretty inappropriate for the time imo ; also Momiji?s magic doge parts.

To begin with, the ones who?ll get troubled the most by these kinds of minor oversights are, first and foremost, the lore enthusiast, nerdy overthinkers side of the fanbase : here?s one contentious point (It was a thing, I swear) that came with MoF : Reimu?s amulets working on Gods. Before MoF (and naturally excluding PC-98), there was never any involvement with any got, so Reimu?s amulets, which were generally considered as things that only work on youkai MIGHT be very out of place. How did ZUN tackle this issue ? I don?t recall, but it was more or less ?well, I guess they work?. How do you respond to that ?! That?s a way of dodging the issue? WHILE legitimazing the potential mistake. There are a lot of ideas that fans debate and overthink, to the point where they eventually run into either a question that canon do not necessarily provide an answer to, OR a conclusion  that logically requires that there is a discrepancy in canon if it cannot be answered. These are VERY in depth an hardcore, cross referencing , nerdy rationalizations from the lore enthusiast side of the fanbase. Does ZUN takes it into account ? No. In fact, the general consensus about how Lunarians, their amortality and Kegare go hasn?t been reached yet in actual canon but is actually a conclusion from fans (and it?s pretty solid). Point is, some of the overthinking from the fan?s side might not necessarily be in ZUN?s immediaty crosshairs : he do his thing, we do ours, and the thing we do might, hopefully not, be trivialized by it being made irrelevant in official works. Dunno if my point was clear, but, similarly to that, fan reflexions that go too deep into the secondary details and raise questions towards, you guessed it, inconsistencies will not only get trivialized but also become some sort of question that won?t receive concrete answer since they are not being considered.

Personally, I?d say that minor details that official material disregards would fall into some sort of exploitable idea that might or might not be used later. I ain?t no authority, but I say it should be pretty appropriate to simply refer to the ones that are contradictory as ?official?, as in they are official and came in official work but have questionable canon value.

Touhou?s got A LOT of facets, some of which?ll get more coverage than the others, and some of which?ll get might get neglected or simply ignored. You can?t shove EVERYTHING into a small number of work without getting a mess out of it : there are central elements to this series, these have been the general outline for this series, and they are what make the bulk of this series? ?identity?. There ARE inconsistencies, no doubt, but the truly relevant ones get addressed right away by ZUN, while the minor ones, which are mainly discovered by the nerdy part of the fanbase are open ended, exploitable material, and tbqhwy? these kind of stuff don?t really seem to be that big of a deal.

Also, on the ?retcon? thingy? personally, I believe this is, like, the very, very, very, very, VERY last card that an author should pull. ZUN has always been careful and overbearing when it comes to lore, so much in fact you?d see in the fighting games questionable systems that are faithful to the lore. I think carelessly retconning stuff just because they don?t match modern Touhou is? too extreme.



I dunno how impressions go through internet, but I don?t mean to come out as rude or as a some sort of ZUN fanatic with this post. It?s hard to put my finger on it, but there is a certain something that irks me a bit about this topic?

Is Koishi's heart eye opening (SA) or shut so tight most people can't remember her (SoPM)?  Do Shinigami collect immortals (SWR) or do they not (WaHH)?  Is the dragon palace on the moon (SoPM) or is it definitely not (CiLR)?  This isn't even getting into the fuzzier messes like what village youkai interaction is, (or even just what out of village youkai interaction is.)

The correct answer to all of these things is that sometimes characters are wrong and sometimes they lie. Just because Tenshi believes that shinigami collect immortals doesn't mean that they actually do. The fact that people can't even understand such a basic concept boggles my mind. Frankly, I always thought it was pretty blatantly obvious that shinigami had been fighting celestials but without the intention of killing them. Maybe a test of sorts, I dunno, like how Komachi always seems to be testing Kasen. If the celestials never lose, how would they know the difference? Maybe Toyohime doesn't know that the Dragon Palace has always been the surface's misinterpretation of the Lunar Capital from the very beginning.

Likewise, Koishi's eye was described as "beginning" to open. The impression I got from that was basically that her eyelid twitched. She started on the long, long path towards it opening; it certainly wasn't a one-off event that magically cured her.

I mean, maybe my role as a translator biases me, but I feel like a lot of people don't even try to make sense of things. They'd rather blame a bad writer than their own shallow understanding. I really don't want to offend anyone, but I seriously think this indicates that people are bad at reading. Yes, reading comprehension is a skill, and it needs to be trained. I find that a lot of people are incredibly bad at it, but don't understand that they're bad at it because they don't think of it as a skill that people can be better or worse at. Writers aren't perfect, obviously, but the goal of a reader is to interpret generously: assume it makes sense until it is absolutely 100% certain that it doesn't. Maybe more details will be revealed later, maybe the narrator was unreliable, etc etc. If you just assume the writer is dumb then you will always find that they're dumb, no matter how well written the work actually is. But that's just because you're dumb.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 07:53:13 AM by Clarste »

Tengukami

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All I can say is, yeah, a few people could've been nicer in their responses, but I also think it's kind of in the nature of offering a series of strong opinions up for public discussion that it's going to evoke strong responses. As much as it stings, that's kind of what happens when you put forward a strong position on a contentious topic.

For the most part things have been civil. I just think that's how it goes when you present a series of strong opinions for discussion. People will respond, strongly, and as people will sometimes just repeat what others have already said, it'll seem like a pile-on. Unfortunate, so I guess it's important for those responding to pay attention to whether or not they're about to just repeat what someone else said.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:49:01 PM by Tengukami »

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I'll be splitting this off in a bit so things can continue in their own thread if people wish.
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Maybe Toyohime doesn't know that the Dragon Palace has always been the surface's misinterpretation of the Lunar Capital from the very beginning.
The whole situation with Dragon Palace = Lunar Capital thing is a big historical conflation of myths that it's hard to know if there's actually any significant meaning that's supposed to be derived from them besides being colorful interpretations of mythology, really. I don't think there's any serious in-universe connection.


To summarize some of it,

The progenitor of the Watatsukis (Toyotamahime and Tamayorihime) is the god Watatsumi, who is often equivalent to the god called Ryujin, whose palace is Ryuuguujou, the Dragon Palace.

In the story of Urashima Taro, he goes to the Dragon Palace and meets the daughter of Ryujin called Otohime, who is basically an equivalent to Toyotamahime (Toyohime). In most versions of the story he only stays for three days, and this story is also where the general outline of following-a-turtle, returns-300-years-later, and tamatebako-that-ages-him parts come from.

There is also the story of Hoderi and Hoori, the latter of which becomes Toyotamahime's wife.  Hoori travels to the Dragon Palace while trying to find Hoderi's magical fishhook, which he had lost. There he meets Toyotamahime and they fall in love, and Hoori spends three years there (as in Touhou's story) before returning to land. This story is also called Luck of the Sea and Luck of the Mountains (being nicknames for Hoderi and Hoori respectively) and is the inspiration of Toyohime's ability. It's totally a coincidence that ZUN interprets Gensokyo as the Mountains and the Lunar Capital as the Sea, but it works way too well given one is mountainous and one has mythical seas.

Iku is then a "Messenger of the Dragon Palace" and is said to be a connect between the world of dragons and humans, including a mention of some Ryujin, but there doesn't seem to be any solid relation here besides in name. It's entirely possible there are many dragon gods, of which you'd call them all Ryujin.

There's likely even more conflation going on when you consider Iku resides in Heaven (Tenkai) whereas the Lunar Capital is considered the heaven of Shinto mythology. Dragons living in the sea, the skies, and rain are also heavily mythologically connected in general. The human village worshiping the dragon statue for good weather is a Shinto tradition based on the relation of dragons to the skies and rain.


I'm currently maintaining that ZUN talking about the Dragon Palace in SoPM is instead just referring back to all of this, rather than making a concrete statement.

Quote
Z: 月の都も仙人の家も、ちょっと似ているわけです。月の都に居る人間たちは、人間というよりも仙人や天人ぽいですね。
(later)
Z: そういえば衣玖の種族はカタカナでなく漢字で「竜宮の使い」と書きますが、竜宮は存在しているんです。それは月の都のことなんですが。
I: 天人は月の都に住んでいるっていうのはそういうことなんですね。
Z: 一応設定的にはその辺がいろいろ繋がっているんです。
would rather be
Quote
Z: That's because the Lunar Capital and a hermit's house are sort of similar. The humans in the Lunar Capital, rather than "human" are more hermit- or celestial-like.
(later)
Z: Which reminds me, Iku's species is written in kanji as "Messenger of the Dragon Palace" rather than katakana, but the Dragon Palace does exist. The Lunar Capital, that is.
I: So when you said celestials live in the Lunar Capital, you were talking about this, I see.
Z: More or less as far as the setting goes [the origins thereof] these places have all kinds of connections.

The phrase 天人は月の都に住んでいるっていうのは having been corrected from the first-print 天人は月の都に住んでいるっていうのは also clarifies that the intention wasn't to actually imply "celestials also live in the Lunar Capital" but instead that he was referring back to ZUN's earlier line in the interview. They were just talking about the Lunar Capital, and that reminded him that Iku's title had superficial relations to how he previously worked the Dragon Palace story in with the Lunar Capital. That's my take.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 12:40:26 PM by Drake »

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Iced Fairy

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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2017, 02:45:23 PM »
Gotta say I love getting two responses telling me I need to try harder from people who didn't bother to do any research.

In Komachi's ending she considers switching to being a celestial hunting shinigami if she gets fired for being too lazy.  With an added ZUN note that she of course wouldn't get hired if she had been fired from her old work because she was lazy.

And thus begins another cycle of me playing the games, doing the research, putting down what happened, and then getting blown off by a simple "Well that person is obviously wrong, and the entire section is misinformation.  But remember everything is totally internally consistent.  Maybe you should try harder."  Because doing the damn research is so little effort compared to just declaring every character that says something contradictory to be misinformed.  As if carefully culling the material while pretending there's no inconsistencies is somehow more pure then just admitting you're picking and choosing what you like.

Anyway I look forwards to the next set of responses telling me ZUN might be wrong and there's totally no assumption he's infallible, but have I considered that everything I've spent time researching could be totally wrong, and that ZUN's writing has no flaws.  Because that's obviously the more enlightened idea.

Edit : I don't even have a problem with people doing this if they think it's more fun.  I understand some people love desperately stitching together disparate canon, trying to make sense of everything.  I've done it myself in the past and I have friends who do it now.  It can be fun.  But this insistence that somehow those of us who see things a different way are somehow lesser fans who don't get what ZUNs writing?  That's what I find unacceptable.  You can't say both sides have merit, then insultingly dismiss everything one side has to say.  And whether or not that was the intent, that's what a lot of this thread has been.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 04:09:13 PM by Iced Fairy »

Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2017, 04:45:18 PM »
I didn't mean to put anyone down or imply that anyone was "lesser" or anything like that. And I'm not picking and choosing what I think is right and shooting down other people's opinions. This conversation started because someone mentioned how Reimu may or may not have a consistent personality because she acts very differently in the games and various mangas. Then it turned into "there are tons of inconsistencies, deal with it". And my response is that just because something seems inconsistent doesn't mean it necessarily is. As I said, assuming that without giving it any thought is a bad way of thinking imo (and the response to that was "ZUN clearly gave it a lot of thought when he said "take the newest work as canon if there are any contradictions"). If that doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you, and I'm sorry if I came off as offensive.
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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2017, 05:49:33 PM »
Reimu's different behavior was stated to be due to different characters seeing her in different ways.

About Komachi and Tenshi, i had a similar doubt some time ago. What term is used when Komachi considers changing job (in the jap text, because mistranslations or even just a different wording might change the meaning)? "Hunting" celestials, "killing",  or simply "fighting"? In the latter case, they might simply put a show for the sake of formalities and keeping the shinigami/kishin lie ongoing.

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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2017, 06:48:50 AM »
My thoughts on these specific examples, case-by-case:

Reimu - Reasonably consistent.  She acts different on-duty vs youkai, on-duty as a shrine maiden, and off-duty, but it's all part of a well-rounded character.  There are definitely parts of her personality that stay through all three phases.
Koishi - The way I see it, it takes something extraordinary to make Koishi's mind even start sparking.  Like Okuu becoming nuclear, or the Mask of Hope.  Yes, it is inconsistent, but that inconsistency is also reflecting Koishi's spontaneous nature.
Shinigami - Yeah, that's a straight-up retcon, no two ways about it.  Which has led to even more retcon now with Hecatia...
Dragon Palace - Even if there wasn't an actual Dragon Palace when Urashima Taro took his journey, it may be there now.  Belief creates reality in the Touhouverse, after all.
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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2017, 12:46:39 PM »
TBH, After I read all of this, I'm on the side of "honestly, people were getting that worked up over it?". Sure, there were inconsistency know that you think about it, but I never even noticed these thing when playing the game or reading the official material. I know the joy of overanalyzing thing to it logical extreme (I do that all the time with Vs match), but that's really making a moutain out of a molehill, and these thing aren't ruining the theme of Touhou overall.

Not trying to offense anyone too. Just giving perspective of the casual fan that just a wee bit involved when it come to thing within interest.

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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2017, 02:32:30 PM »

I think it might help a bit to not mischaracterize what people are saying here. Like literally no one said ZUN is "infallible" or that you're some kind of "lesser fan". There's plenty to pick apart in what people have responded with, and I totally get where you're coming from. I also get that feeling piled-on is going to make anyone get defensive. I'm just asking that we stick to what is actually, literally being said in this thread rather than run the risk of escalating things, that's all.

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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2017, 11:44:41 PM »
Shinigami - Yeah, that's a straight-up retcon, no two ways about it.  Which has led to even more retcon now with Hecatia...
Not necessarily. This is pretty debatable.

When it comes to Touhou, afterlife administration is more of a bureaucracy where all of the employees / agents involved have a precise role to play and that within certains limits. Like in the police for example, to oversimplify things, there are guys who deal with investigations, guys who deal with muscled intervention, guys who deal with in depth analysis of whatever is in the crime scene, guys who stick paper on you car and so on? Touhou?s afterlife administration is similar to that, BUT with one big difference :

In Touhou?s case,  specific races tend to receive specific roles : Yamas for judging and Onis for torture, to say a few. But in the case of Shinigami, it?s not about the Shinigami race being entitled to one specific function : there are a various functions they serve in, similar with how things go in the awkward police example : going by PMiSS they can be clerks, ferrymen, lifespan administrators (?) and receptionist. So, in general, killing isn't a part of their job.

What (I assume) the confusion is about  is usually about whether Shinigamis kill or don?t kill people. In-universe,  Komachi straight up  says that Shinigamis killing people as their main job is a misconception and that Kishin chiefs usually deal with that task (WaHH).  Yet there are some elements that allow one to think that Shinigami *do*, in fact, kill (or just attack ?) some category of individuals as part of their job (Hermits and Celestials, for instance)

I guess I can see why there would be a contradiction, but here?s the thing : is a certain function EXCLUSIVE to a certain RACE in particular ? Generally, Onis deal with torturing the sinners? soul. Even so, we get Clownpiece, a FAIRY, who fulfill that exact function : would that automatically mean that Onis doing torture is retcon ? Are these facts mutually exclusive ? Definitively not. Onis are still the standard when it comes to torture in Hell.   Canon gives the torture role to Onis but never outright mentioned that it was EXCLUSIVELY performed by Oni .

So, about the Shinigamis who kill, I?d hypothesize that there MIGHT BE a specific function that involves hunting Hermits and Celestials, and that such function do not exclude Shinigami, as a RACE, to exercise it.

And I don?t think the AFiEU Hecatia interview retcon that (quite the opposite imo), since it says that Hell is mainly a meritocracy : it should make sense that similar level Onis would have a similar job and that a Fairy who is on their level could get the same job as them  : why shouldn?t a Shinigami who meet peculiar requirements get a job that involves the killing part ? And since the afterlife?s Administration is mainly about the management of  the cycle of reincarnation, it should be plausible, to a certain extent, that there would be a post that involves the hunt of death-cheating individuals (like Hermits). That should also be why they completely ignores individuals who are not part of the reincarnation cycle (Mokou, Fairies?)



Anyway, the way things are in canon is that in general, Shinigamis don?t kill. In general.  But it shouldn?t be like it completely close off any instance of ?peculiar cases? (again, Clownpiece and the Onis). It?s not uncommon for authors to deliberately stay vague on certain points or leave them open ended so as not to trip themselves or clumsily restrict themselves on a peculiar point that they might consider to either explore later or to introduce ?peculiar cases?.

And again, when it comes to the ?retcon? thingy? in general, whenever THIS ACTUALLY happens, the author do it directly and specify what is retcon. It feels a bit extreme to play the retcon card whenever an exception to the general rule is presented. Like, UFO introduced a new setting for Youkai subsisting : does that means that Youkai needing fear is retcon ? A certain fortune teller got memed by Reimu in a certain manga : does that means that spellcard rules are retcon ? Sakuya explained that her timestop is pretty much about her moving faster than speed with no mass : does that mean that her time manipulating ability is retcon ? It?s not like the given facts are mutually exclusive and can only work by completely shutting down the other one or any other possible explanation : some consideration is in order, mostly in a case-by-case approach. That should apply to this whole Shinigami role confusion too imo.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 11:56:09 PM by Suspicious person »

Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2017, 03:10:28 AM »
Re:Reimu: it's also worth mentioning that there has yet to be a official printwork from reimu's prospective. Everyone has a different view on her. WAHH is from the prospective of an older person who has no tolerance for the bullshit that reimu pulls. (and on top of that, has an very liberal stance on Gensokyo's politics.)

HS is from someone who is very young and naive, and thus looks up towards Raymoo as someone who is admirable and can protect her.

And on top of that, what Sophilia and others said about not everyone having completely consentent personalities, people can act differently depending on the situation. I'm pretty sure Reimu wouldn't act like the grumpy jackass
she usually is around someone like Kosuzu.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 03:32:56 AM by Kilgamayan »
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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2017, 03:33:21 AM »
Let's not resort to personal attacks, thanks.
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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2017, 03:02:29 AM »
The SWR content can not be a misconception or a lie.  It contains Komachi's internal narrative as a trusted authority on death.
The WaHH content can not be a misconception or a lie.  It is backed up by the action of the Kishin, and later the testimony of others.
Yet one directly opposed what the other has laid out.
You make a good case with your talk of roles and jobs, and indeed this might be the case now.  But it's still a direct change to the established facts of the story.  Which is kind of what a retcon is.  And you know what?  I'm OK with that.  If ZUN wants to change stuff, cool, that's his right.  It's actually pretty impressive that he hasn't had to do it all that often.

As for your other examples?
Fear is a form of belief to sustain youkai.  So is being venerated as a god's avatar.
The spellcard rules, once invoked, are absolute.  But if not invoked, lethal combat can still transpire.
Sakuya's bullshitting; several of her spellcards can only be done through actual time manipulation.

In none of these is a change in the continuity either used or required to understand what's happening.  Like you said, there are other possibilities to consider.  But when the facts themselves get changed, I'm going to call a spade a spade.
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Re: Canon and Consistency
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2017, 03:20:17 AM »
I thought with the kishin it's more, Komachi knows the truth, but this is a case where that's the official sorry that is given out.

It's beneficial for the ministry to keep up the deception.  They're not going to lay out all their cards publicly as the kishin not being known makes them much more effective.  Especially if the target is training to fight shinigami they won't expect a kishin kicking the door down and doing their job.
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