Author Topic: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again  (Read 20834 times)

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2017, 01:00:02 PM »
Well then, you're not garbage at everything. Problem solved.

PCB in particular is on the tough side for an Easy mode, there's not much difference between Easy and Normal. I think you could get a Normal 1cc if you gave it a go.

My tips:
* First of all, be patient. Moving up a difficulty level is always going to be a process of gradual improvement until you get the 1cc.
* Start by clearing the game with continues, so as to unlock every stage in stage practice. (Exception: In MoF, because of the weird continue system, clearing with continues is harder than just getting a 1cc. However, MoF has a bug where watching a replay unlocks stage practice.)
* Split your time about half-and-half between attempting runs and doing stage practice. Both are important. Even when you're not ready for the 1cc yet, it boosts your confidence to get further than you could previously, come out of the early game with more resources than you're used to having, and watch yourself improve.
* Post a Normal replay so that we can have a look at it and give specific tips. There might be particular things you could do better, or particular patterns you're not understanding, that would be obvious if a more experienced player looked at your replay.
* Don't be so dismissive of streaming. It makes some of the nastiest-looking sections really easy. All you need to do is, if a lot of aimed bullets are coming at you at the same time (for example, most of MoF Stage 4), make small, steady movements and they will all miss you. If this isn't working for you, keep practising until you get it. It will improve your overall game enormously.

So tried PCB again. Remembered why I didn't play PCB after the 1CC I sneaked through. 

I get what feel panic attacks playing PCB. None of the others do it but I find myself shaking while playing Perfect Cherry Blossom. Like it's physically like bad to play that one for me.

I don't understand why it's that one only.

Apparently first time through on Normal.  Got almost to Youmu.  Almost puked twice so that's less good.

Replay

Also can we embed Youtube videos here?  Also the new encode looks nice...

Edit: If I'm puking up my guts when I wake up then I guess it might not be PCB to blame?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:50:03 PM by Zelinko »
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2017, 11:56:15 PM »
Yeah, PCB can be pretty tense at times, and adrenaline can do some weird things to you (I certainly tend to get pretty damn jittery against Youmu), but that does sound like there's something more than just the game at fault. Hope you feel better soon.

That said, I have to say that the replay shows a clear improvement. Compared to the SA runs you posted earlier in the thread, you're definitely panicking less, you seem more at home with the idea of bullets passing near you, and I even saw some decent streaming here and there. You do still have a long way to go (you're still reluctant to leave the bottom center of the screen, and your movements still sometimes freeze up when there are bullets around - particularly visible in the second half of stage 1), but the progress is visible. I think you're on the right track.

I'm noticing a few other good signs in the video as well. You're readily willing to bomb if it looks like something might go wrong (which isn't a bad thing), but when your bombs run out, you cope remarkably well with having that safety net taken away (see stage 3; solid performance, especially against Alice). Keep at it - you're making good progress on your fundamentals, and the rest will follow from that eventually.

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2017, 10:51:17 AM »
Yeah, PCB can be pretty tense at times, and adrenaline can do some weird things to you (I certainly tend to get pretty damn jittery against Youmu), but that does sound like there's something more than just the game at fault. Hope you feel better soon.

That said, I have to say that the replay shows a clear improvement. Compared to the SA runs you posted earlier in the thread, you're definitely panicking less, you seem more at home with the idea of bullets passing near you, and I even saw some decent streaming here and there. You do still have a long way to go (you're still reluctant to leave the bottom center of the screen, and your movements still sometimes freeze up when there are bullets around - particularly visible in the second half of stage 1), but the progress is visible. I think you're on the right track.

I'm noticing a few other good signs in the video as well. You're readily willing to bomb if it looks like something might go wrong (which isn't a bad thing), but when your bombs run out, you cope remarkably well with having that safety net taken away (see stage 3; solid performance, especially against Alice). Keep at it - you're making good progress on your fundamentals, and the rest will follow from that eventually.

It's really weird as well Even with the more technically intense aspects of SA I don't get half as fucked up as I do with PC in cases where technically the difficulty is far lower.  Also I think you might have noticed a few "Why is this not working" pushes towards POC earlier.  I forgot that in PCB you needed full power for it and kinda well those parts ain't coming back.

With knowing I have a fixed number of bombs I think I'm more willing to use them as I know I have X bombs left and I won't bleed power out of it.  Having Bombs draw from power always kinda gets me gunshy as less bang means less kill which means less refill which is kinda bad.

Sakuya A's bomb I like because of how long it runs. It's the only reason I cleared PCB normally is that with how she gets a lot of them and how her bombs last a long time. You can cover a surprising amount of Reflowering's survival with effective bomb trains.  Especially after I lost an earlier run at 0 Seconds left on the clock.  I checked the replay. It said Zero.

Alice is weird.  Like I'm trying to think if to treat it more like IN's fights were blowing the dolls would be worth it (to reduce shots at me) or if it's just better to blast her directly.  Especially since well. I don't remember which cards had replacing dolls. 

Stage 4's fairies kinda forced me to treat them like that. I didn't even see it as streaming as usually I was just jinking the aim once I got the majority firing at me.   Not sure if with the snowflakes(?) in that stage if it's a SA stage 5 case where the best option is NOT to shoot as they'll naturally go off after a bit and just create a single evasion event or are they shoot them before they shoot you?  Too many bullets on screen while firing just makes it hard for me to tell who's firing or not.

Also with the Prismriver choice. I kinda forgot which one was the easiest in phase 2.  I went with Lunasa as I vaguely remember that the Merlin was the "White Demon" and not to shoot her which kinda forced me into a corner to ensure that I did enough damage Lunasa to force her cards. 

Edit: Maybe it was a sign I was heading for a kinda psychological breakdown as I kinda had a mini one later that day...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 10:54:00 AM by Zelinko »
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Drake

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2017, 11:53:13 AM »
Alice is weird.  Like I'm trying to think if to treat it more like IN's fights were blowing the dolls would be worth it (to reduce shots at me) or if it's just better to blast her directly.  Especially since well. I don't remember which cards had replacing dolls. 
Her dolls either have no hitboxes, or in the case of Dutch Dolls (second card) there is no difference when destroying them since they fire immediately.

Stage 4's fairies kinda forced me to treat them like that. I didn't even see it as streaming as usually I was just jinking the aim once I got the majority firing at me.   Not sure if with the snowflakes(?) in that stage if it's a SA stage 5 case where the best option is NOT to shoot as they'll naturally go off after a bit and just create a single evasion event or are they shoot them before they shoot you?  Too many bullets on screen while firing just makes it hard for me to tell who's firing or not.
Watch! A! Replay!

You made it way harder on yourself by never letting go of the fire button. If you watch your very own replay you should be able to obviously see that they only fire when you destroy them. If you leave these enemies alone they fire a very easy pattern when leaving.

Also with the Prismriver choice. I kinda forgot which one was the easiest in phase 2. 
Lyrica is generally considered the easiest.


You've barely done any runs, but with five starting lives and Sakuya's bomb count with your willingness to spam it probably won't take long to clear. You should probably reduce the starting lives back down to three eventually though.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 11:55:43 AM by Drake »

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Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2017, 12:23:23 PM »
Her dolls either have no hitboxes, or in the case of Dutch Dolls (second card) there is no difference when destroying them since they fire immediately.
Watch! A! Replay!

You made it way harder on yourself by never letting go of the fire button. If you watch your very own replay you should be able to obviously see that they only fire when you destroy them. If you leave these enemies alone they fire a very easy pattern when leaving.
Lyrica is generally considered the easiest.


You've barely done any runs, but with five starting lives and Sakuya's bomb count with your willingness to spam it probably won't take long to clear. You should probably reduce the starting lives back down to three eventually though.

I did watch my replay I still couldn't tell. It's like too many to track so I couldn't figure it out.  It's like too much going on so I couldn't focus on looking at  them as it's just too much to look at and my eye loses track and  I can't focus on my shots in that case as everything's going too fast.

And really once I get the 1CC it's listed as done and I move onto the next one.  Why bother coming back after you've completed the objective.  Not like I'm banging out relic hunts in 'frame.

Still no clue why you'd want to drop your life count. If the game gives me these resources why wouldn't I use them?  I don't care about score and starting with max lives just hurts the score multiplier. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:24:54 PM by Zelinko »
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2017, 12:30:41 PM »
Lyrica is generally considered the easiest.
Lyrica's not hard, but I actually think Zelinko made the right choice by going for Lunasa. She's relatively forgiving on the lower difficulties, whereas Lyrica requires disciplined streaming for her non and a willingness to move a fair distance up the screen for her spell - Zelinko is still struggling with both of those.

That said, I'd second the suggestion to look up some replays of stage 4. Some of the enemy groups are easier if you just shoot them, some are far easier if you let them live. Definitely look up some other players' runs and try to learn which is which, but until you get a feel for the stage, I'd recommend playing it safe and not shooting them - sparing a group that's safe to kill is a lot less dangerous than the opposite case.

And really once I get the 1CC it's listed as done and I move onto the next one.  Why bother coming back after you've completed the objective.
Because "PCB 1CC with five starting lives" and "PCB with three starting lives" are two different objectives. It's a simple matter of raising the bar once you've cleared the easier version. There's also the fact that many people don't consider a run "legit" unless it's played at the default starting resources. While I do prefer to use the default lives, I think that's kind of a silly attitude - if you're playing for fun, just play the game how you want to play it - but if, for whatever reason, you do want to compare your run against what other players are doing, that'll be hard to do if you're using different settings, as the increased starting lives mean you're effectively playing a (slightly) different game.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:37:56 PM by Nova234 »

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2017, 12:46:40 PM »
Lyrica's not hard, but I actually think Zelinko made the right choice by going for Lunasa. She's relatively forgiving on the lower difficulties, whereas Lyrica requires disciplined streaming for her non and a willingness to move a fair distance up the screen for her spell - Zelinko is still struggling with both of those.

That said, I'd second the suggestion to look up some replays of stage 4. Some of the enemy groups are easier if you just shoot them, some are far easier if you let them live. Definitely look up some other players' runs and try to learn which is which, but until you get a feel for the stage, I'd recommend playing it safe and not shooting them - sparing a group that's safe to kill is a lot less dangerous than the opposite case.
Because "PCB 1CC with five starting lives" and "PCB with three starting lives" are two different objectives. It's a simple matter of raising the bar once you've cleared the easier version. There's also the fact that many people don't consider a run "legit" unless it's played at the default starting resources. While I do prefer to use the default lives, I think that's kind of a silly attitude - if you're playing for fun, just play the game how you want to play it - but if, for whatever reason, you do want to compare your run against what other players are doing, that'll be hard to do if you're using different settings, as the increased starting lives mean you're effectively playing a (slightly) different game.

I'll do a test run with holding fire as long as I can against the spinny things but I need to blast the Fairies though. 

But like some of my other clears with high life starts I didn't lose enough that it'd matter so It'd be like effectively that but Meh. I just still can't figure out how it'd be different although with IN starting at max makes lives into bombs until you die. 

Still not sure about it being hard to compare because they're facing same patterns and stuff I dunno how it'd be different to compare against.

I checked my old replays for PCB. I always went after Lunasa because the others just didn't work out nicely and burned more bombs.
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2017, 04:57:47 PM »
I'll do a test run with holding fire as long as I can against the spinny things but I need to blast the Fairies though. 
This strategy is correct. The spinny things shoot tons of garbage bullets, but only if you shoot them.
But like some of my other clears with high life starts I didn't lose enough that it'd matter so It'd be like effectively that but Meh. I just still can't figure out how it'd be different although with IN starting at max makes lives into bombs until you die. 
Starting with 3 lives is harder. That's really all it is for the most part. If you're satisfied with a 1CC with maximum starting lives, don't worry about it and don't listen to other people's judgements. Just know that "1CC with 3 starting lives" is a goal to attain down the road.
Though imo EoSD is easier to 1CC with 3 lives because more points means more extends earlier.
Playing Touhou since 18 March 2012. Playing video games since 19XX.
Normal 1CC: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC, HSiFS, CtC.
Extra 1CC: EoSD, PCB+Phantasm, IN, PoFV (K&S), MoF, SA, TD, HSiFS, CtC+Phantasm.
Hard 1CC: EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF, TD, CtC.
Lunatic 1CC: EoSD

Chill Observer

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2017, 05:48:44 PM »
That's actually true for all games. You want to start with 3 or less starting lives because you will hit the extend cap quite soon with max lives. It actually hurts you if an extend you would have gotten is otherwise turned into a bomb.

Besides, for MoF and later, you can't even change the life settings anyway, so you should make it a goal to get used to the default setting.
Retired Touhou player. Not involved with anything Touhou anymore.

Drake

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2017, 07:01:53 PM »
The point about default lives is just a matter of communication and comparison. If you say "I've 1cc'd PCB" the expectation is that you've used default lives.  With personal accomplishments it literally doesn't matter, clear whatever you want, but anyone else saying "1cc" already implies default lives whereas starting with max is "1cc with max starting lives". It's​ not that it "isn't legit" otherwise, but claiming a run is a "1cc" while using max lives is considered to be incorrect.

Nova's comment on Lyrica vs Lunasa is also more correct, after thinking about it. You should really just learn how to stream properly though.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2017, 12:06:13 AM »
The point about default lives is just a matter of communication and comparison. If you say "I've 1cc'd PCB" the expectation is that you've used default lives.  With personal accomplishments it literally doesn't matter, clear whatever you want, but anyone else saying "1cc" already implies default lives whereas starting with max is "1cc with max starting lives". It's​ not that it "isn't legit" otherwise, but claiming a run is a "1cc" while using max lives is considered to be incorrect.

Nova's comment on Lyrica vs Lunasa is also more correct, after thinking about it. You should really just learn how to stream properly though.

See I hear I 1CC'd it is you got the completion don't matter how many you burned.

That's actually true for all games. You want to start with 3 or less starting lives because you will hit the extend cap quite soon with max lives. It actually hurts you if an extend you would have gotten is otherwise turned into a bomb.

Besides, for MoF and later, you can't even change the life settings anyway, so you should make it a goal to get used to the default setting.
Only time I ever hit lifecap and converted to bombs was in IN but IN is IN.  Never had it in PCB.  Not even sure if I ever hit 999 tier for extends in that.  But apparently drops are RNG soo mighta had bad RNG or just not collecty enough on my end.

The point about default lives is just a matter of communication and comparison. If you say "I've 1cc'd PCB" the expectation is that you've used default lives.  With personal accomplishments it literally doesn't matter, clear whatever you want, but anyone else saying "1cc" already implies default lives whereas starting with max is "1cc with max starting lives". It's​ not that it "isn't legit" otherwise, but claiming a run is a "1cc" while using max lives is considered to be incorrect.

Nova's comment on Lyrica vs Lunasa is also more correct, after thinking about it. You should really just learn how to stream properly though.

Thing is I think about actively doing things in Touhou games outside "HOLD YOUR FIRE" areas (kinda have to put sticky notes on the edge of the monitor the first few time) and general card rules I tend to overthink as my best dodges are just kinda rolling on just instinct and stuff.  I don't plan em or stuff It just happens.

I mean considering my 1cc list I mean missing UFO DDC and LoLNO I've done a buncha start with 3s. 

I might punishment run DDC,all songs become Poi to see if it might work. Although I did 5 hours of World of Warships Ranked to this and actually was Unicum that day so who the fuck knows what's gonna happen. 

I don't bother going back and lowering the numbers because if can clear with a lot left over then what's the point? It'd just be the same if I started with 3.
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Chill Observer

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2017, 08:21:48 AM »
There is absolutely zero RNG in item drops. There might be slight variances in the drop area but the items dropped are always the same.
Retired Touhou player. Not involved with anything Touhou anymore.

Drake

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2017, 09:28:22 AM »
See I hear I 1CC'd it is you got the completion don't matter how many you burned.

I don't bother going back and lowering the numbers because if can clear with a lot left over then what's the point? It'd just be the same if I started with 3.
Obviously that may not be what you think of, that's why I'm mentioning it. It is a matter of when you hear any other person saying "1cc" they are implying some reasonable default conditions that do not match your own. It means you're not using the terminology in the same way other people are, and if you're communicating at all (on a forum, for example...) then there is a disconnect, because you would be elevating your own accomplishment to be equivalent to theirs, which would be wrong. If you're talking with other people you don't get to just decide what terms mean on your own.

As a note, PCB extends are 50, 125, 200, 300, 450, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, etc. There is no "999-tier" as though it counterstops, if that's what you were suggesting.

Lastly, if you can clear on five lives without ever dropping below two, then what has no point is setting it to five starting lives at all, no? You can't have your cake and eat it too: either you're playing with the assumption that you will be dropping below two extra lives and need them to clear, so own up to that -- or the assumption that the default is enough and just bear with the legitimate game over if you fail. I understand that you're content with simply clearing regardless, but that doesn't make it pointless. It isn't as though the default is five, you have to set that yourself as a handicap. For example, if you extend that logic to a case where the game lets you set infinitely many starting lives (or just a really large number), would you also find that totally acceptable to call a "1cc"? Would you be satisfied clearing that way and move onto another game? If not, you must have at least some boundary of effort.


Satori: I don't think that's the case for EoSD and PCB. I don't know how the distribution works but there are definitely random factors; you can see this just by restarting and gunning down the first few fairies in the same order every time. It definitely isn't to the extent that it even slightly affects gameplay outside of I guess WR-tier scorerunning though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 09:39:28 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
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Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2017, 12:05:52 PM »
Obviously that may not be what you think of, that's why I'm mentioning it. It is a matter of when you hear any other person saying "1cc" they are implying some reasonable default conditions that do not match your own. It means you're not using the terminology in the same way other people are, and if you're communicating at all (on a forum, for example...) then there is a disconnect, because you would be elevating your own accomplishment to be equivalent to theirs, which would be wrong. If you're talking with other people you don't get to just decide what terms mean on your own.

As a note, PCB extends are 50, 125, 200, 300, 450, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, etc. There is no "999-tier" as though it counterstops, if that's what you were suggesting.

Lastly, if you can clear on five lives without ever dropping below two, then what has no point is setting it to five starting lives at all, no? You can't have your cake and eat it too: either you're playing with the assumption that you will be dropping below two extra lives and need them to clear, so own up to that -- or the assumption that the default is enough and just bear with the legitimate game over if you fail. I understand that you're content with simply clearing regardless, but that doesn't make it pointless. It isn't as though the default is five, you have to set that yourself as a handicap. For example, if you extend that logic to a case where the game lets you set infinitely many starting lives (or just a really large number), would you also find that totally acceptable to call a "1cc"? Would you be satisfied clearing that way and move onto another game? If not, you must have at least some boundary of effort.


Satori: I don't think that's the case for EoSD and PCB. I don't know how the distribution works but there are definitely random factors; you can see this just by restarting and gunning down the first few fairies in the same order every time. It definitely isn't to the extent that it even slightly affects gameplay outside of I guess WR-tier scorerunning though.

999 tier was from IN since I remembered that number showing up a lot on my various character clears.  I forgot what PCB had for levels.

I was only hearing RNG because It was brought up elsewhere with being a thing for EOSD/PCB for drops apparently.

But I cleared the game without continuing.  The game doesn't care how many lives you start with when it comes to ending so according to the game it's a valid 1CC according to the game at least.
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2017, 12:33:10 PM »
IN doesn't have 999, but it shows 9999 as the "next" extend when you've got all the extends. You'll also see 9999 as the time orb target in stages 4 and 5.

It's more important to use what words mean on the forum, rather than what words mean to the game, when interacting with the forum. For instance, IN thinks FinalA isn't a 1cc (if you've previously cleared both on Easy, then clear FinalA on Normal, it still says "Final Selectable" instead of "FinalA cleared"), but the forum generally regards either FinalA or FinalB being a valid 1cc.

Drake

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2017, 12:58:46 PM »
But I cleared the game without continuing.  The game doesn't care how many lives you start with when it comes to ending so according to the game it's a valid 1CC according to the game at least.
Yes, we've established that and I've said so multiple times, but that wasn't my question. The logic that adding a handicap so you start with 5 lives is acceptable to you can just as easily be applied to a game that gives you however many lives you want to start out with. Just say, 1000 lives. Everyone can start with 1000 lives if they want. Somebody may die 8 times and clear, somebody else may die 15 times and clear, somebody might just run into bullets the whole time and die 200 times but still clear. If this Touhou game existed, would you be willing to clear and then move onto another game, because as long as the game let you beat it "without continuing", you're satisfied?

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
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Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2017, 12:59:48 PM »
IN doesn't have 999, but it shows 9999 as the "next" extend when you've got all the extends. You'll also see 9999 as the time orb target in stages 4 and 5.

It's more important to use what words mean on the forum, rather than what words mean to the game, when interacting with the forum. For instance, IN thinks FinalA isn't a 1cc (if you've previously cleared both on Easy, then clear FinalA on Normal, it still says "Final Selectable" instead of "FinalA cleared"), but the forum generally regards either FinalA or FinalB being a valid 1cc.

Hey you're right it's 9999 I knew it was a buncha 9s so eh close enough.

For some reason thought it only went up to 999 Checked replay yea up I ended with 1202/9999

I've don't think I actually 1cc/Final A on Easy.  when I got IN it had a buncha score.dat unlocked so I had Extra and everyone's routes opened on both sides.  Never checked what my other character 1CCs to see how many lives I used.  The one I recorded I just kinda when finding out that the final rush was pretty much optional effectively took a knee was overwhelmed.

Yes, we've established that and I've said so multiple times, but that wasn't my question. The logic that adding a handicap so you start with 5 lives is acceptable to you can just as easily be applied to a game that gives you however many lives you want to start out with. Just say, 1000 lives. Everyone starts with 1000 lives. Somebody may die 8 times and clear, somebody else may die 15 times and clear, somebody might just run into bullets the whole time and die 200 times but still clear. If this Touhou game existed, would you be willing to clear and then move onto another game, because as long as the game let you beat it "without continuing", you're satisfied?

Probably. I mean that's what Point Device Mode is anyhow.
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Tengukami

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2017, 01:30:35 PM »
Probably. I mean that's what Point Device Mode is anyhow.

The point here is that, in the community, "1cc" refers to clearing the game without continues using the default amount of lives.

You are free to be personally satisfied with clearing the game without continues starting with the max amount of lives, and that is totally fine. But this is not what a 1cc is in the general understanding of the community.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2017, 01:54:56 PM »
The point here is that, in the community, "1cc" refers to clearing the game without continues using the default amount of lives.

You are free to be personally satisfied with clearing the game without continues starting with the max amount of lives, and that is totally fine. But this is not what a 1cc is in the general understanding of the community.

But what is "The Community"?  Because my 1CC on PCB, IN and EOSD are legit and you cannot convince me else wise.
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2017, 02:25:30 PM »
But what is "The Community"?

It's the group of people you're going to get a timeout away from if you don't knock off the bad-faith posting.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
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Tengukami

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2017, 04:31:23 PM »
But what is "The Community"?  Because my 1CC on PCB, IN and EOSD are legit and you cannot convince me else wise.

I see you've been here since 2011. Then you should be keenly aware of what is meant by "the community". You should also be aware that a clear without continues and with the default number of lives is what is generally considered to be a 1cc. You're free to use as many starting lives as you want and call your runs legit, but by the same token, everyone else is free to consider a no-continues run with max lives to not really be a 1cc.

To address "bad faith posting" for you, since you brought it up elsewhere: throughout this thread, people are bending over backwards to offer you advice, show you replays, and examine your runs. On occasion, you accept advice. On most other occasions, however, you respond with things that are either straight-up wrong (e.g. "bombs in MoF are weak") or by blaming the games for causing you personal difficulty. Throughout, and especially so in the TH16 announcement thread, there is a great deal of moving the goalposts. As one example: "Can't figure out the mechanics intuitively" leads to "Read the forums" which leads to "I shouldn't have to go online" with leads to "There's an in-game manual" which leads to "Yeah but it's in Japanese" which leads to "It's translated on the wiki and with thcrap" which leads to "I don't trust thcrap because java" which leads to "you can just remove the .dll" which leads to "if I am forced to remove a .dll then the software sucks" and so on.

Do you see the problem here? Every possible solution offered, all of them reasonable, leads to you introducing a new problem for everyone else to address. This is bad faith posting. The core of your complaints all boil down to "Touhou isn't a bare-bones shoot-dodge-bomb shmup" or "This takes too much effort to master, ergo the games are flawed". This is also bad faith posting.

My sincere, heartfelt advice to you would be to consider that maybe the problem isn't with Touhou. Maybe the problem isn't even with you. Maybe you just don't like the series. And that's fine. But you can't blame the games for not being what they aren't. It'd be like complaining Fallout 3 has no danmaku. And you also can't ask for advice, get advice, and then offer a new problem (read: excuse) for why that advice just won't work for you. Seriously, reconsider how you interact with the community here, and how you're approaching the games. Offering this up not as a scold, but as genuine, friendly advice.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2017, 04:42:02 PM »
But what is "The Community"?  Because my 1CC on PCB, IN and EOSD are legit and you cannot convince me else wise.


Nobody said your 1ccs aren't legit. They're saying that your definition of a 1cc is different from everyone else's.

Let's say I have $1000. In my mind, that's a lot of money, and I can go tell my friends "I have a lot of money", and they might agree. But if I go into a group of millionaires and say "I have a lot of money", they're going to make certain assumptions. To them, "a lot of money" is more like a billion dollars than a thousand dollars. So while I'm not technically lying, I'm still giving them the wrong impression.

On this forum, when someone says "1CC" it's generally understood that they mean "I beat the final stage using default lives without continuing." If you use more than the default lives than yes, you may have technically 1CCd. But you're using the word differently than the rest of the forum.

Yeah you have "a lot of money", but you have to keep in mind you're talking to a group that regularly deals with millionaires. So you saying "I have a lot of money" gives us the wrong impression.

It's not really as subjective as that, but that analogy gets the point across I hope...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 05:44:56 PM by TresserT »
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Drake

  • *
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2017, 03:26:48 AM »
I would argue that analogy is way too lax and implies that the universally accepted definition of a 1cc is only defined that way because the people that use it are just so far above the common folk. That isn't the case at all; the majority of the fanbase, people that are comfortable sticking to Easy and Normal modes, will still acknowledge this. A better analogy is to go to the US and tell people "I have ten thousand dollars in my pocket", pull out one bill of 10000 Indonesian rupiah and then get mad when people say that isn't the same as ten thousand dollars.

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Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2017, 06:10:02 AM »
I see you've been here since 2011. Then you should be keenly aware of what is meant by "the community". You should also be aware that a clear without continues and with the default number of lives is what is generally considered to be a 1cc. You're free to use as many starting lives as you want and call your runs legit, but by the same token, everyone else is free to consider a no-continues run with max lives to not really be a 1cc.

To address "bad faith posting" for you, since you brought it up elsewhere: throughout this thread, people are bending over backwards to offer you advice, show you replays, and examine your runs. On occasion, you accept advice. On most other occasions, however, you respond with things that are either straight-up wrong (e.g. "bombs in MoF are weak") or by blaming the games for causing you personal difficulty. Throughout, and especially so in the TH16 announcement thread, there is a great deal of moving the goalposts. As one example: "Can't figure out the mechanics intuitively" leads to "Read the forums" which leads to "I shouldn't have to go online" with leads to "There's an in-game manual" which leads to "Yeah but it's in Japanese" which leads to "It's translated on the wiki and with thcrap" which leads to "I don't trust thcrap because java" which leads to "you can just remove the .dll" which leads to "if I am forced to remove a .dll then the software sucks" and so on.

Do you see the problem here? Every possible solution offered, all of them reasonable, leads to you introducing a new problem for everyone else to address. This is bad faith posting. The core of your complaints all boil down to "Touhou isn't a bare-bones shoot-dodge-bomb shmup" or "This takes too much effort to master, ergo the games are flawed". This is also bad faith posting.

My sincere, heartfelt advice to you would be to consider that maybe the problem isn't with Touhou. Maybe the problem isn't even with you. Maybe you just don't like the series. And that's fine. But you can't blame the games for not being what they aren't. It'd be like complaining Fallout 3 has no danmaku. And you also can't ask for advice, get advice, and then offer a new problem (read: excuse) for why that advice just won't work for you. Seriously, reconsider how you interact with the community here, and how you're approaching the games. Offering this up not as a scold, but as genuine, friendly advice.

Actually I kinda registered in 2011 then kinda forgot this place existed so only came back last week (I thought the site might have died in those five years+).  So no I don't know what the "Community" is.  I've been getting more solutions and peeking at some replay of them even though It's more looking at how cards work than anything since I can't match their performances and routing they use as I can't remember them or they don't feel comfortable at all to use.

Of course the day I was in the th16 thread I did kinda have minor psychological meltdown so I can't remember half of what I posted in there.  But, I'll admit I'm massively wrong in there.

I still say the MOF bombs feel weak if only because I'm not getting feedback from it and considering how rarely I bomb in that (Mostly on Kanako) they just are kinda trash there because of being kinda short duration and being bad at screen clearing when I NEED screen clearing bombs more than just the extremely narrow clearing, If it was a long lasting bomb I could use them more for aggressive stalling even if it's not clearing the screen that good. My PCB 1cc clear was just effectively just burning time wasting bombs on the survival card because I wasn't gonna have a 0 second failure like the last time so It wasn't an elegant solution but it made sure I was safe enough. 

I could just do another IN-E Clear but what's the point?  It's just redoing the same paths again.  If you want me to bang out one I'll do it but I'm not sure what's the point?  You're still going to mock me for it being an Easy 1CC. People have already done so. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 06:17:50 AM by Zelinko »
This Space For Rent

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2017, 07:17:34 AM »
Zelinko dear, I'm far from barging on others' personal affairs but I haven't seen a single person mocking you for playing on easy whatsoever.  In fact, I believe that you have been somewhat selective in your interpretation of people's comments and standards in a handful of things, so I'd really recommend you to take a step back and rethink these things.

Also, another piece of friendly advice but if you ever feel like having such aforementioned "psychological meltdowns" and such, mayhap engaging in discussions (let alone with your bold and somewhat innacurate statements) isn't the best thing to do. 

We all have our own opinions, but you have to understand that if so many people agree over a fact (such as MoF's bombs being fine/powerful, or 1ccs using the default livestock the game gives), it's more or less a popular opinion, and thus we can't so easily agree with a handful of your personal opinions ("I think those bombs are bad", "I think my runs are proper 1ccs", etc.)

While I believe everyone has a right to speak their mind, you have to understand that you delivering excuse after excuse backed up with nothing but your opinion and no facts isn't really contributing to discussions in a healthy way.   I know it's really none of my business, but I'm trying to give honest, constructive criticism here. 

Hope you take these words to the heart and reflect upon them.

(Oh and sorry for the rather off-topic post!)

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2017, 10:45:37 AM »

I think you're misunderstanding me here. My point is that when you raise a complaint, if someone offers a reasonable and working solution, the fair thing to do is to at least try that solution. To instead present an excuse for why that solution will not work, and then kinda chain excuses with each new solution offered, exhausts the resources of the people sincerely offering you help and comes across as you basically not wanting to expend any effort at all. So my suggestion is that, when offered a reasonable and working solution to a problem you raise, maybe ... actually try that solution, or at the very least, stop roping people into your long chain of excuses.

No one is demanding you do your runs again, and literally no one here will mock you for Taking It Easy. I've been an Easy/Normal player for years now, and Difficulty Level Elitism is greatly frowned upon here.

I have, though, noticed you've brought up psychological problems any time you're backed into a corner. You claim you don't even remember some of the posts you made in the TH16 thread. This is really troubling, and you might want to consider just not posting at all if it causes you so much psychological stress to engage meaningfully around here.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
  • gaining big pounds
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2017, 11:59:20 AM »
I'm still getting the impression that you're taking this whole Easy-1cc and practicing-spellcards matter way too hard. There's absolutely no need to do so.

First things first, no one, literally no one here will ever look down on you for playing on Easy, please remember that. Even I belong to the folks here who still regularly play on Easy/Normal and have already engaged longer in the Touhou community than some current Lunatic players. I'm sure that this is some heavy misinterpretation on your side, the community here consists of players of all skill levels who are willing to help each other.

Secondly, you'll need time to practice the solutions that we've been trying to offer to you. No one is going to pressure you in showcasing your runs, you do them whenever you feel like it. Honestly, it's practically impossible to be instantly good at anything, thus I sincerely hope that you'll take the pieces of advice here to your heart and at least attempt them a couple of times before coming up with an empty claim that isn't really backed by anything evident. If you've been stuck while trying to figure out certain strategies, be it survival, scoring, resource gain or anything, be it our solutions or your own strategies, we'll be more than glad to help you out.

Thirdly, please try to keep your posts rational. I'm not saying at all that your opinion isn't allowed here, of course it is, but at least try to tone down your wording a bit (i.e. the usage of swear words when you're being serious about something) or people are going to misunderstand what you've been trying to say. Also please stop trying to accuse people for seemingly arbitrary reasons, much like in this thread where we've been trying to take a look at situations from your perspective so we can help you, but you still appear to be way too pressured about this. Don't be. Throwing around accusations isn't going to help anyone, and can seriously anger people sooner or later at worst. Best thing would be really to take some deep breaths and not take this whole matter way too seriously. You'll keep humiliating youself if this keeps up. Be more open for negotiations with people around here, and your psychological stress will be gone eventually.
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2017, 12:21:14 PM »
I'm still getting the impression that you're taking this whole Easy-1cc and practicing-spellcards matter way too hard. There's absolutely no need to do so.

First things first, no one, literally no one here will ever look down on you for playing on Easy, please remember that. Even I belong to the folks here who still regularly play on Easy/Normal and have already engaged longer in the Touhou community than some current Lunatic players. I'm sure that this is some heavy misinterpretation on your side, the community here consists of players of all skill levels who are willing to help each other.

Secondly, you'll need time to practice the solutions that we've been trying to offer to you. No one is going to pressure you in showcasing your runs, you do them whenever you feel like it. Honestly, it's practically impossible to be instantly good at anything, thus I sincerely hope that you'll take the pieces of advice here to your heart and at least attempt them a couple of times before coming up with an empty claim that isn't really backed by anything evident. If you've been stuck while trying to figure out certain strategies, be it survival, scoring, resource gain or anything, be it our solutions or your own strategies, we'll be more than glad to help you out.

Thirdly, please try to keep your posts rational. I'm not saying at all that your opinion isn't allowed here, of course it is, but at least try to tone down your wording a bit (i.e. the usage of swear words when you're being serious about something) or people are going to misunderstand what you've been trying to say. Also please stop trying to accuse people for seemingly arbitrary reasons, much like in this thread where we've been trying to take a look at situations from your perspective so we can help you, but you still appear to be way too pressured about this. Don't be. Throwing around accusations isn't going to help anyone, and can seriously anger people sooner or later at worst. Best thing would be really to take some deep breaths and not take this whole matter way too seriously. You'll keep humiliating youself if this keeps up. Be more open for negotiations with people around here, and your psychological stress will be gone eventually.

Emotions run tend to run super high at times and just start getting me going on a kinda really bad feedback loop of anxiety and anger which leaks into the posts which results in responses which just feeds into the loop. I mean the TH16 thread's a prime example of the out of control looping. As things get stuck in my head too much and just keeps locking into that setup. Just like gotta keep fighting and when I see the reply it becomes another fight. Of course it results in a crash afterwards...

Did that base lives 1CC for IN
No clue if there is streaming in there or just effective aimed baiting.  I can tell you what is in there... a bunch of stupid deaths to stage enemies and probably at least one or two awful movement paths that resulted in failures to card capture.
This Space For Rent

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2017, 12:31:00 PM »
Emotions run tend to run super high at times and just start getting me going on a kinda really bad feedback loop of anxiety and anger which leaks into the posts which results in responses which just feeds into the loop. I mean the TH16 thread's a prime example of the out of control looping. As things get stuck in my head too much and just keeps locking into that setup. Just like gotta keep fighting and when I see the reply it becomes another fight. Of course it results in a crash afterwards...

Here's the thing: it doesn't need to go down like that, at all. You can break the cycle before it even starts. You can accept a reasonable and workable solution to a problem you raise and try it out. If you have some kind of compulsion to "fight", as you put it, when all people are trying to do is offer you new solutions to new excuses you come up with, then yeah, maybe the best solution is to just leave the thread in question altogether. Not because people dislike you or something - no one is trying to deliberately antagonize you or belittle you here, at all - but if you have some kind of self-control issue then that's kinda on you to sort out.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2017, 01:49:35 PM »
Try to get back in.  Only find myself just everything feels kinda weird with MPP. It's like at times it feels like it's running really slow but the FPS meter's saying 60.  Then things seem to go warp speed and I'm pretty sure I'm not touching control.

Just immediately back into the depression playing.  16s Demo I don't want to touch yet as well.  When it comes out I want it to be entirely special if that makes any sense. 

I'm struggling where my replay (the one that desynched at stage 4's boss) showed it was looking easy. I can't stop making stupid mistakes.  I mean I even crashed into a stationary boss for death. 

Is the apparent FPS dips tied to Reimu/Okuu's ability rolling over or something? 

I just don't know if I should start pushing again.  I look at the replay and I can't tell what was the result of skill or just blindly stumbling into things and getting lucky.  I mean Deathbombs are pure luck for me after all even with the team having 'extended deathbomb window'
This Space For Rent