Author Topic: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again  (Read 21089 times)

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« on: April 03, 2017, 07:43:23 AM »
Like the title said how do you do it?

Every time I try to even play now I'm utterly miserable and just can't  feel any happiness from it only depression both playing it and especially after it. 

Die on stage 1 restart, start to feel heavier.
Die on stage 2  to  a stage enemy restart, feel heavier.
Die again before stage 4.  Close the game and just feel like crying.

I used to enjoy playing these games.  But now it's just misery even thinking about it.  Took half a year off still just as bad about it.  Tried different games in the line.  No effect. Tried LoLK, realized a fun game for me hasn't come out in half a decade (with the last I enjoyed being Ten Desires)

I just don't know if I can enjoy it anymore or if I've just broken myself.

Even when I hit the wall the first time it wasn't this bad.  I'm not sure if the cancer of LOL YOU PLAY EASY MODE! LOL BABY YOUR 1CC DOESN'T EVEN COUNT has gotten to me I just don't know.

The question is how do I fix myself or should I just give up?
This Space For Rent

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 10:27:43 AM »
I often get into a spiral where I'm having a bad session, I want to get one achievement before packing in for the night (even something small like capturing a difficult spell), but because of increasing frustration and tiredness, this gets harder and harder.

For me, the way out is to make sure I end each session playing something that I know is too hard for me, something that I expect to fail and can just enjoy failing at. (In any case, spending some time playing higher difficulties is a great way to improve your skill at the difficulty you're aiming at.) Even better, this sometimes leads to completely unexpected success -- last week I 1cc'd IN Hard, on a credit that was meant to be "here's something I'm not ready for yet, let's just see how far I get".

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 10:44:18 AM »
That depends - what made you interested to play originally?

The soundtracks and getting better inspired me. Seeing sections that I had problems with cleared after some practice always makes me happy when playing. When you're forced to play at your best for 30+ minutes, you're bound to have some lucky dodges and also some not-so-lucky moments. Restarting runs repeatedly does sound torturous, though - I would play most of my runs out because what seems like a bad run could easily turn into something unexpected.

In the official lineup, DDC and LoLK were notably harder games than the rest including the likes of Seija, Kagerou, Doremy...etc. I wouldn't let Easy Mode taunts get to me - Bullet Hell games aren't easy things to play by any means. Maybe just trying to play the games with no expectations may help.

Hello Purvis

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 12:04:47 PM »
Really, ZUN's been ramping it up since Mountain of Faith. SA, UFO, GFW, DDC, and LoLK are all markedly meaner than the preceding games in terms of actually clearing them. Arguably TD, too, but most won't agree with me on that. I blame the lack of being able to give yourself more lives in the options menu, myself =[


Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 12:33:10 PM »
That depends - what made you interested to play originally?

The soundtracks and getting better inspired me. Seeing sections that I had problems with cleared after some practice always makes me happy when playing. When you're forced to play at your best for 30+ minutes, you're bound to have some lucky dodges and also some not-so-lucky moments. Restarting runs repeatedly does sound torturous, though - I would play most of my runs out because what seems like a bad run could easily turn into something unexpected.

In the official lineup, DDC and LoLK were notably harder games than the rest including the likes of Seija, Kagerou, Doremy...etc. I wouldn't let Easy Mode taunts get to me - Bullet Hell games aren't easy things to play by any means. Maybe just trying to play the games with no expectations may help.

In part the restart loops are symptoms of the problem... I need to be perfect because I just need more lives to get progress. I just need more lives

DDC's biggest problem is wanting to play.  It's really bland feeling then we get to ZUN runs out of ideas for creative cards in the form of Seija, why did he think LOL CONTROL SCREW SO I CAN REPEAT THE SAME PATTERN TWICE was a good idea? Then Shinymouru is just Lame gimmick and another survival card, IMO Survival Cards should be optional like Last Words were.  Combined with the fact that DDC's actively forcing movement to get ANY resources is just not fun.

LoLK is steaming pile of a game.  It's not at all balanced for normal play as there is  no bomb fragments from what I saw and the entire YOU MUST ACTIVELY GRAZE TO GET ANY RESOURCES actively offended me.  I'm not a person obsessed with score so I don't graze.  The game forces you to play exactly the way ZUN scripted it which is NOT FUN.  Also it's the first Touhou game I played which is actively UGLY and has a bad soundtrack.  Which is a damn shame because I love the concept and design of Doremy.  This doesn't even come to the massive problem of Point Device which has all the problems of the photography games without being able to skip a shot if you don't want to do it.

Really, ZUN's been ramping it up since Mountain of Faith. SA, UFO, GFW, DDC, and LoLK are all markedly meaner than the preceding games in terms of actually clearing them. Arguably TD, too, but most won't agree with me on that. I blame the lack of being able to give yourself more lives in the options menu, myself =[
The biggest problem is the gimmicks became more and more intrusive. In Mountain of Faith or Subterranean Animism the gimmicks only affected score (although the Hoola Hoops of failure in MoF are the worst bombs in any game). 
UFO forces you to play tag with things that cover bullets and only give FRAGMENTS when you're having to hold onto 2 Red or 2 Green for the majority of a level and pray the color changing UFO doesn't decide to go wrong color the instant you touch it. 
Ten Desires Trance mode I often forget exists and you get enough resources to ignore it. 

And Ten Desires was my fastest from start playing to getting a 1CC Easy clear on.  And honestly I view as being one of the more fun ones.  I've been trying to 1CC that as Imperishable Night's just having the vs Reimu fight which is just taking an already unfun fight and dragging it out longer, any battle where the enemy is invulnerable the majority of the time is a bad fight by definition. 

I often get into a spiral where I'm having a bad session, I want to get one achievement before packing in for the night (even something small like capturing a difficult spell), but because of increasing frustration and tiredness, this gets harder and harder.

For me, the way out is to make sure I end each session playing something that I know is too hard for me, something that I expect to fail and can just enjoy failing at. (In any case, spending some time playing higher difficulties is a great way to improve your skill at the difficulty you're aiming at.) Even better, this sometimes leads to completely unexpected success -- last week I 1cc'd IN Hard, on a credit that was meant to be "here's something I'm not ready for yet, let's just see how far I get".

The problem is there is no progress. It's just getting no where further. It's just failing at the same point every time.   Just can't get anywhere further.  Often it's cases where in practice I'd need more lives than you can get in the entire game by that point if perfect or more.  It just feels so meaningless. I can only really do one 'good run' before I'm just dragged down to oblivion.

------------

I'm just finding myself wondering if Touhou's going to keep having a string of unfun games as the fighters have been awful ever since HM happened.  I'm just assuming the new game coming out is going to be a buggy mess with nonfunctional netplay so why even bother playing as the appeal of the fighters was to play against friends.  And both HM and ULiL are not games to play with friends as the prior is a buggy mess with a core gimmick which doesn't work (How does the popularity system even work!!) or just removes what made me love Hisoutensoku in the first place, the customization.  This doesn't even dig into bizarre and random design decisions which make no sense.

I just want to be able to play games and enjoy them again... Doesn't help that no one ever made actual translation patches for anything after Ten Desires.  I refuse to touch THCRAP as it's not actually giving me a static patch like we had for everything before Ten Desires.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 12:39:43 PM by Zelinko »
This Space For Rent

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 01:40:57 PM »
Honestly, if you're not having fun with the games, don't try to force it. Forcing yourself to play a game you don't enjoy doesn't benefit anyone. Maybe you need a longer break, maybe you've simply decided that you don't enjoy Touhou anymore. There's nothing wrong with that. Just move on to something else that you do enjoy, and come back to Touhou if/when you think you might be in a position to enjoy it again.

Karisa

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 05:15:31 PM »
And Ten Desires was my fastest from start playing to getting a 1CC Easy clear on.  And honestly I view as being one of the more fun ones.  I've been trying to 1CC that as Imperishable Night's just having the vs Reimu fight which is just taking an already unfun fight and dragging it out longer, any battle where the enemy is invulnerable the majority of the time is a bad fight by definition.
I just want to be able to play games and enjoy them again... Doesn't help that no one ever made actual translation patches for anything after Ten Desires.  I refuse to touch THCRAP as it's not actually giving me a static patch like we had for everything before Ten Desires.

That's a lot of complaining, much of which seems arbitrary to me. Perhaps if you make the effort to stop viewing things as inherently bad, and make use of what you're given (life systems/patches), you'd enjoy it more? That might be hard to do, so here's some more specific thoughts.

UFO/GFW/DDC/LoLK all give ridiculously high life counts compared to the previous games (15-20+ optimally), so it's not like you need to use the systems efficiently to surpass the 8 total lives of EoSD and MoF, or the 10 lives of SA (accounting for 6-10 missed life parts due to dying).

Actually, it seems you think TD gives more than enough resources without trance, when it gives the lowest of any game in the series (unless you count PoDD but that's a different gameplay style). If you find 5 lives throughout the entire game acceptable, then I'd think you'd also find the free lives from UFO/DDC/LoLK acceptable. UFO gives 5 1/4 lives (with the conditional stage 4 1up) without having to summon any UFOs; DDC gives more simply by collecting items without trying for 60+ items at once. LoLK depends on the difficulty, but I'm sure you reach 200 graze naturally often enough just from aimed bullets and sufficiently dense patterns, particularly on the bosses.

Also, since you seem to have problems with repeating earlier stages and life counts throughout the game, try playing stage practice more. You'll learn the patterns for full runs, both to survive and where to easily gain life parts, while avoiding getting bored on stage 1.

If nothing else, just take a break from the games, as Nova said. Why play if you're not enjoying it?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:03:51 PM by Karisa »

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 06:06:27 PM »
On the subject of the games themselves, I think some level of adaptation is necessary for any of the games. I'm much of the same mind when it comes to scoring; if at all possible, I'd rather not do it at all and focus on the patterns. However, the fact remains that gaining resources from the system is a part of the game, and it's no good to just ignore it. Since the score systems are complementary to the stage design though, I think working resource-gathering into your movements is an important part of learning the game as a whole. Like Karisa said, perfection isn't required by any means - you just need to do well enough to get the amount of resources you need.

However, based on the way you've been talking about the games, I'm wondering if the problem is less gameplay-related and more a matter of how you've been approaching the games recently. You say you feel depressed after playing - but why? Is it because you feel you aren't making the kind of progress you want? Are your restarts a result of wanting to get the maximum amount of resources and maximize your chances? Is anything less than your absolute best unacceptable? If so, I'm wondering if you're focused a little too much on the idea of immediately getting a clear, and losing sight of what made you interested in the series to begin with.

This may sound overly philosophical, but I think a large part of doing well in games like Touhou comes down to a matter of approaching the games with the right mindset, rather than any matter of skill level. While it's true that clearing is your ultimate goal, it's only natural that the effort working up to that full clear will be riddled with failures as your learn the patterns and increase your general skill level. Instead, I think it's more important to focus on what you find fun in the games - the raw idea of dodging, overcoming the challenge, and most of all enjoying the game on your own terms. So long as you do these things, I think you will get better on your own, and your individual mistakes will seem less grating. In short, I think you may enjoy yourself more if you put aside the notion of doing well for the time being and focus more on having fun, simply doing your best. Through that, I feel a clear will come in time.

Oh, and lastly, a golden rule I've learned over my time is to never reject a run that makes it past stage 2 with less than two deaths. Putting everything you have into a run that seems like it's already doomed is often what leads to the most surprising runs.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 06:13:58 PM by nintendonut888 »
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

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Chill Observer

  • Aimless fanatic
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 06:38:08 PM »
Die on stage 1 restart, start to feel heavier.
Die on stage 2  to  a stage enemy restart, feel heavier.
Die again before stage 4.  Close the game and just feel like crying.
Stop restarting.

Also, I don't use static patches. Some games' static patches have incompatible replays to the original version. I always play on the original version now. You don't really need translation patches to play Touhou.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 06:40:40 PM by Satori Komeijist »
Retired Touhou player. Not involved with anything Touhou anymore.

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 07:34:45 PM »
You could quit playing. Like, forever. It's really okay to just drop the games if you're not enjoying them. There's plenty of good experiences out there, and the only downside is going outside your comfort zone.

Play an amazing game in a genre you haven't touched. Some personal recommendations:

Megaman 2 or 3 (for NES)
Ori and the Blind Forest
Magic: the Gathering
Ocarina of Time
Undertale
Furi

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 08:48:47 PM »
When I play Touhou, usually I just play stage practice. It's a lot less stressful and I still get to play the same stages and bosses.

If you want stage unlocks, this thread links to most unlocked score.dats.

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 09:11:53 PM »
Your situation sounds really serious to me, to be honest.
If you feel like Touhou is becoming more of an psychological issue for you and pressures you too much in a negative way, it'd be better for you to leave Touhou completely. Forcibly playing a game while not enjoying it is generally a pretty bad idea and could have an unwelcome effect on your psyche.

Like CopperMarten suggested, the world of video games is broad, there are many different things to discover. It'll bring some diversity to your gaming experience and overall broaden your views in general.

As for me, I started playing Touhou at about half a year before DDC has been released. Music, character design and the creative fan community are what drew my interest into Touhou - the level-headed side of the fan community that is, not the fans who spawn all these memes to mock players and people not knowing Touhou. Don't take these "EASY MODO" memes personally, some people deliberately misuse them to mock newcomers and players in general who play on Easy. Even I'm still playing on Easy sometimes for relaxation and don't give a damn about these provocations. Just ignore these people who are trying to make fun of you, don't let their insults get to you. Playing Touhou, as just for playing any game, should be for fun and not be a forced matter in any way, including the mockery which would make some people desperate to try higher difficulties so they wouldn't get picked on anymore. This is wrong.
Play whatever game however you want, on whatever difficulty you desire. You'll naturally become better if you don't forcibly play a game, are learning and getting adapted to its mechanics gradually. People learn by making mistakes, which is the reason why there exists a continue system with each Touhou game.

I personally find every game in the Touhou franchise fun in their own regard, especially because of their different mechanics. That's exactly what makes every game unique and doesn't make Touhou look like a monotonous pile of games with identical gameplay mechanics and bosses with repetitive gimmicks. Principally the same applies for the new multilanguage patch. They're flexible and allow quick changes if the initial translation is inaccurate, which would be important if you want to know better about the story/plot.


Honestly now, the best thing to do now is to let Touhou rest for a while, and try some different games. That could make you forget the stress you had with Touhou and if you happen to come back once, you likely won't take said stress so seriously anymore and will be able to properly enjoy the Touhou games again.

One last thing: play Easy mode all you want. It's good as a warm-up or if you haven't touched Touhou for a while. I do it as well. Don't listen to people who are deliberately trying to make fun of you because of this. EoSD is being a huge douche in that regard tbh
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 09:23:42 PM by Jimmy »
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

Chill Observer

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 10:12:44 PM »
When I play Touhou, usually I just play stage practice. It's a lot less stressful and I still get to play the same stages and bosses.

If you want stage unlocks, this thread links to most unlocked score.dats.
Here's also a more extensive dat list
Retired Touhou player. Not involved with anything Touhou anymore.

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2017, 01:36:56 AM »
When I play Touhou, usually I just play stage practice. It's a lot less stressful and I still get to play the same stages and bosses.

If you want stage unlocks, this thread links to most unlocked score.dats.

I agree.

I mostly do stage practice instead of actual runs nowadays. I spam them, even when I can clear them with a decent amount of resources... I keep practicing them. Not just to get better overall, but theres no risk and its fun!

I have even managed to perfect entire stages before ever getting its respective 1cc lol. Stage Practice is your friend.

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2017, 01:55:43 AM »
How long have you been playing? What's your preferred difficulty? What got you into Touhou in the first place (gameplay, music, lore, something else)?
If you've yet to do a Lunatic 1CC, then Instead of banging your head on the newer games, why not try the harder difficulties of the older, more familiar games? I don't play Touhou as much as I used to, but I still attempt a Lunatic EoSD 1CC every now and then.
Edit: Didn't notice your second post, nvm.
I kinda have to ask this: you know how to use the Focused shot (shift key), right? I've seen lots of people struggle with Touhou simply because they didn't know about the Focused shot.

There are other ways to get fun from Touhou outside of new 1CCs. Improve your scores on spell practice & stage practice, or just focus on capturing spellcards. Re-do a 1CC that you've previously done to get a higher score.

You could also try PC shmups outside of Touhou. PC shmups used to be pretty niche, but now Steam is brimming with them. Crimzon Clover, Danmaku Unlimited, eXceed, CAVE games, Jigoku Kisetsukan, Super Galaxy Squadron EX, Blue Revolver...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 06:24:03 AM by shockdude »
Playing Touhou since 18 March 2012. Playing video games since 19XX.
Normal 1CC: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC, HSiFS, CtC.
Extra 1CC: EoSD, PCB+Phantasm, IN, PoFV (K&S), MoF, SA, TD, HSiFS, CtC+Phantasm.
Hard 1CC: EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF, TD, CtC.
Lunatic 1CC: EoSD

Drake

  • *
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 03:34:35 AM »
In part the restart loops are symptoms of the problem... I need to be perfect because I just need more lives to get progress. I just need more lives
Well you have bombs. You don't need more lives if you have the bombs to protect them.
Combined with the fact that DDC's actively forcing movement to get ANY resources is just not fun.
Forcing movement to acquire resources is good design. You are not entitled to extra resources, you are awarded them for taking action. Gaining extra lives for not doing anything in particular, in contrast, is poor design. If this weren't the case you would just start with them.
Quote
LoLK is steaming pile of a game.  It's not at all balanced for normal play as there is  no bomb fragments from what I saw
It is a bit strange that there is no way to get more bombs but this does not particularly make the game unbalanced, it just makes the resource use kind of linear. You have three bombs to use, then die. Because the resources are awarded statically for each section, and you only need three life pieces for a life, even if you got a full bomb per section instead it would actually be worse.
Quote
YOU MUST ACTIVELY GRAZE TO GET ANY RESOURCES actively offended me.  I'm not a person obsessed with score so I don't graze.
Conceptually, again, having to take positive action for resource reward is good design, but the implementation kind of sucks because getting resources in lower difficulties is a huge pain, and grazing is not particularly a good way to achieve this. That being said, it literally doesn't matter if you don't graze in other games because you don't care about score, because in this game you now have a reason to graze. This reasoning makes no sense, it's just complaining that you aren't used to having to graze. If you don't like that then ok, but then just say that instead of suggesting it's bad somehow.
Quote
and has a bad soundtrack
more like you have bad taste :^)
Quote
In Mountain of Faith or Subterranean Animism the gimmicks only affected score (although the Hoola Hoops of failure in MoF are the worst bombs in any game). 
In MoF you literally get lives from score. Also its bombs, despite being visually unappealing, are some of the most OP in the series, and it showers you with them.
Meanwhile, I don't get how more people don't complain about SA punishing you extra for dying. Because the mechanism isn't plainly visible?
Quote
UFO forces you to play tag with things that cover bullets
They don't cover bullets. Bullets are drawn over UFO tokens.
Quote
Reimu fight which is just taking an already unfun fight and dragging it out longer, any battle where the enemy is invulnerable the majority of the time is a bad fight by definition. 
I'm not sure what game you're playing but it sure isn't Imperishable Night. Reimu isn't even invulnerable when she's looping across the screen.
Quote
The problem is there is no progress. It's just getting no where further. It's just failing at the same point every time.   Just can't get anywhere further.  Often it's cases where in practice I'd need more lives than you can get in the entire game by that point if perfect or more.  It just feels so meaningless. I can only really do one 'good run' before I'm just dragged down to oblivion.
What I'm getting from this is that your practicing methods are questionable and you're just ramming your head at the game without thinking about how to handle the patterns properly. A lot of new players do this, you just kind of have to learn how to practice more efficiently. Your mentality about failure also does not sound healthy. Failure in Touhou is going to be, like, the overwhelming majority of your play, unless you only want to play whatever you can already beat.
Quote
I refuse to touch THCRAP as it's not actually giving me a static patch like we had for everything before Ten Desires.
https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Standalone_Patches
These don't work exactly the same as modified game files, but for anyone not savvy enough to know the difference between patching methods it should be good enough. It is entirely possible to use the resources to make an actual hard patch, but there is no good reason for people to do the work.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 04:53:26 AM by Drake »

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 07:32:58 AM »
((Whoops, double post!))
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:36:51 AM by Linnah »

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 07:36:18 AM »
Whist I think that everyone has their right to enjoy or dislike a game and its' contents, isn't a bit too harsh to say you're 'feeling miserable' from playing?  I don't mean to point fingers but I think a lot of your critique comes from personal opinion and mayhap driven by frustration?

I like the fact that the games each got distinct mechanics, and while consistency is fun, it's also pretty neat to adapt your playstyle depending on your stage - be it bombing to grab lots of items on DDC or trying to Deathbomb on MoF to maximize your point gains.

That being said, if you think the mechanics are stressful and you see yourself dying too much, why not lowering the difficulty?  And finally, enjoy the journey too, set yourself small, fun accomplishments.  Sometimes I try getting my Lunatic 1cc's, sometimes I just want to enjoy a fight while trying to syncronize the spellcards with the music playing.  There's no rule on how to enjoy a game after all, as long as you enjoy it!

EDIT:  I didn't notice the part where you said you've been playing on easy mode.  If you're having trouble with that too, then remember to bomb more often.  With Easy difficulties, managing your bombs and using them whenever patterns thicken is a nearly sure-fire way of progressing. 
And if you're still having trouble, try going for shottypes that are survivability-focused, like Reimu just about anywhere, Reisen on LoLK, SakuyaA on DDC or Nitori (MarisaC) on SA. 

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 03:33:05 PM »
On the subject of the games themselves, I think some level of adaptation is necessary for any of the games. I'm much of the same mind when it comes to scoring; if at all possible, I'd rather not do it at all and focus on the patterns. However, the fact remains that gaining resources from the system is a part of the game, and it's no good to just ignore it. Since the score systems are complementary to the stage design though, I think working resource-gathering into your movements is an important part of learning the game as a whole. Like Karisa said, perfection isn't required by any means - you just need to do well enough to get the amount of resources you need.

However, based on the way you've been talking about the games, I'm wondering if the problem is less gameplay-related and more a matter of how you've been approaching the games recently. You say you feel depressed after playing - but why? Is it because you feel you aren't making the kind of progress you want? Are your restarts a result of wanting to get the maximum amount of resources and maximize your chances? Is anything less than your absolute best unacceptable? If so, I'm wondering if you're focused a little too much on the idea of immediately getting a clear, and losing sight of what made you interested in the series to begin with.

This may sound overly philosophical, but I think a large part of doing well in games like Touhou comes down to a matter of approaching the games with the right mindset, rather than any matter of skill level. While it's true that clearing is your ultimate goal, it's only natural that the effort working up to that full clear will be riddled with failures as your learn the patterns and increase your general skill level. Instead, I think it's more important to focus on what you find fun in the games - the raw idea of dodging, overcoming the challenge, and most of all enjoying the game on your own terms. So long as you do these things, I think you will get better on your own, and your individual mistakes will seem less grating. In short, I think you may enjoy yourself more if you put aside the notion of doing well for the time being and focus more on having fun, simply doing your best. Through that, I feel a clear will come in time.

Oh, and lastly, a golden rule I've learned over my time is to never reject a run that makes it past stage 2 with less than two deaths. Putting everything you have into a run that seems like it's already doomed is often what leads to the most surprising runs.

Half the time It's just I do. Maybe it's the lack of progress. Maybe it's that I just am just trapped in needing to win.

The restarts are heavily tied towards I need as many lives as possible to get past the problem area.

And really most of the things that drew me in are long gone.  RP groups are dead and their forums lost to the net.  The music lines have kinda stumbled around and I just don't find enough to work as so often it's just stumbling upon new music like a drunk.

Forcing movement to acquire resources is good design. You are not entitled to extra resources, you are awarded them for taking action. Gaining extra lives for not doing anything in particular, in contrast, is poor design. If this weren't the case you would just start with them.

It is a bit strange that there is no way to get more bombs but this does not particularly make the game unbalanced, it just makes the resource use kind of linear. You have three bombs to use, then die. Because the resources are awarded statically for each section, and you only need three life pieces for a life, even if you got a full bomb per section instead it would actually be worse.

Conceptually, again, having to take positive action for resource reward is good design, but the implementation kind of sucks because getting resources in lower difficulties is a huge pain, and grazing is not particularly a good way to achieve this. That being said, it literally doesn't matter if you don't graze in other games because you don't care about score, because in this game you now have a reason to graze. This reasoning makes no sense, it's just complaining that you aren't used to having to graze. If you don't like that then ok, but then just say that instead of suggesting it's bad somehow.

I'm not sure what game you're playing but it sure isn't Imperishable Night. Reimu isn't even invulnerable when she's looping across the screen.

Please don't spaghetti post.  It makes replying to a quote all but impossible.

I don't run up and hump the POC Line constantly like DDC forces you to do.  LoLK is just bad decision after decision.  I hate grazing. I actively avoid shots.  Only time I graze is when I'm forced to graze. 

Reimu is effectively invulnerable as you have about a quarter of a second before she's out of the string of shots and you do near zero damage.

And to that other guy YES I DO USE FOCUS. I have 1ccs for most windows games on Easy outside the three games I have no desire to play due to their godawful gimmicks.

You could quit playing. Like, forever. It's really okay to just drop the games if you're not enjoying them. There's plenty of good experiences out there, and the only downside is going outside your comfort zone.

Play an amazing game in a genre you haven't touched. Some personal recommendations:
The majority of your list is flat out NOs.  I've cleared the NES set for Megamans and really I kinda rather do MM4 if I'd go back to them.    I run a lot of games but It's trying to come back to Touhou which is the problem.  A lot of my main set I'm near the point where it's wait for new content to come out or just stockpile resources alone.

That's a lot of complaining, much of which seems arbitrary to me. Perhaps if you make the effort to stop viewing things as inherently bad, and make use of what you're given (life systems/patches), you'd enjoy it more? That might be hard to do, so here's some more specific thoughts.

UFO/GFW/DDC/LoLK all give ridiculously high life counts compared to the previous games (15-20+ optimally), so it's not like you need to use the systems efficiently to surpass the 8 total lives of EoSD and MoF, or the 10 lives of SA (accounting for 6-10 missed life parts due to dying).

Actually, it seems you think TD gives more than enough resources without trance, when it gives the lowest of any game in the series (unless you count PoDD but that's a different gameplay style). If you find 5 lives throughout the entire game acceptable, then I'd think you'd also find the free lives from UFO/DDC/LoLK acceptable. UFO gives 5 1/4 lives (with the conditional stage 4 1up) without having to summon any UFOs; DDC gives more simply by collecting items without trying for 60+ items at once. LoLK depends on the difficulty, but I'm sure you reach 200 graze naturally often enough just from aimed bullets and sufficiently dense patterns, particularly on the bosses.

Also, since you seem to have problems with repeating earlier stages and life counts throughout the game, try playing stage practice more. You'll learn the patterns for full runs, both to survive and where to easily gain life parts, while avoiding getting bored on stage 1.

If nothing else, just take a break from the games, as Nova said. Why play if you're not enjoying it?

Because my last break was almost a year.

See you say UFO/DDC/LoLK have high amounts of extra lives but you forget one huge aspect to your sentence "15-20+ optimally".  See This assumes you're amazing at the game. Realistically I'm getting two  or three extra lives from those games.  Or in LoLK only the single fixed drop and maybe a random fragment due to how awful it's gimmick is.  DDC is just endless bomb frags and the pity life fragment. UFO is just HAHA GET FUCKED! You're gonna hold onto those two red UFO Bits for the entire stage. Enjoy endless Blues which exist to get in your way and taunt you.

Ten Desires ensures I routinely get about 5 lives even without effective trance usage. 

Also MOF bombs are the worst bombs in the game.  Don't even clear shots for shit and do no damage at all.  If you want anything like a bomb in that game just use the Marisa B glitch. 

Whist I think that everyone has their right to enjoy or dislike a game and its' contents, isn't a bit too harsh to say you're 'feeling miserable' from playing?  I don't mean to point fingers but I think a lot of your critique comes from personal opinion and mayhap driven by frustration?

I like the fact that the games each got distinct mechanics, and while consistency is fun, it's also pretty neat to adapt your playstyle depending on your stage - be it bombing to grab lots of items on DDC or trying to Deathbomb on MoF to maximize your point gains.

That being said, if you think the mechanics are stressful and you see yourself dying too much, why not lowering the difficulty?  And finally, enjoy the journey too, set yourself small, fun accomplishments.  Sometimes I try getting my Lunatic 1cc's, sometimes I just want to enjoy a fight while trying to syncronize the spellcards with the music playing.  There's no rule on how to enjoy a game after all, as long as you enjoy it!

EDIT:  I didn't notice the part where you said you've been playing on easy mode.  If you're having trouble with that too, then remember to bomb more often.  With Easy difficulties, managing your bombs and using them whenever patterns thicken is a nearly sure-fire way of progressing. 
And if you're still having trouble, try going for shottypes that are survivability-focused, like Reimu just about anywhere, Reisen on LoLK, SakuyaA on DDC or Nitori (MarisaC) on SA.

I'm trying with some to get 1ccs on normal after I've gotten it on easy.  And I do feel miserable after playing.  A lot of the adapting you say is pretty much "No you can't have fun this way. You will do it THE WAY I INTEND OR YOU WILL GET NOTHING" which is just not fun. I miss when the gimmicks were not intrusive (SA/IN) or only beneficial but entirely optional (PCB)  The trend towards you gimmick is the only way you can get lives is just not fun anymore.  It's so tiring.  I just want another fun Touhou to come out. I don't want to have to wait a decade for something good to come out. Already done that too many times with other things I enjoy.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 03:41:14 PM by Zelinko »
This Space For Rent

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 05:25:58 PM »
Half the time It's just I do. Maybe it's the lack of progress. Maybe it's that I just am just trapped in needing to win.

The restarts are heavily tied towards I need as many lives as possible to get past the problem area.

And really most of the things that drew me in are long gone.  RP groups are dead and their forums lost to the net.  The music lines have kinda stumbled around and I just don't find enough to work as so often it's just stumbling upon new music like a drunk.

You say you were drawn in by other aspects of the fandom, but you still seem pretty set on improving yourself on the games themselves. And again, how come you feel you need to win to the point of depression? It's okay if you don't succeed in a run; in spite of the memes, very few actual players these days judge a Touhou fan based on their skill level. It's okay if you play on easy mode, and it's okay if you don't like every aspect of every game. However, you do seem to have a desire to improve yourself, so what should you do?

In my humble opinion, you seem a little fixated on the idea that any scoring system requiring adaptation is the source of your frustrations. While it is true that I speak as a lunatic player, I feel there is fundamentally no difference to how we approach the score systems. As someone who doesn't like scoring, I don't really make much of an effort to adapt to them. To use DDC as an example, I never plan bombs in order to get a 2.0 multiplier and free life fragment; I just head to the PoC when it's convenient. In LoLK, I only graze to the extent that it's complementary to survival and my own preferred playing style. However, this still usually gives me adequate resources, even if it's far less than what I could potentially get.

If you truly hate the score systems as much as you say you do, then I think your efforts would be better directed at getting better at the patterns themselves, rather than focusing on gaining enough resources to tank everything. While it's true that is a valid strategy, if the effort is making you miserable, then you should try another route - one which lets you focus on what you find fun. As you get better at each individual segment, think about how many resources you need, and focus only on getting enough, instead of doing everything optimally. That's my recommendation, at least. If nothing else, you'll find yourself restarting a lot less often due to messing up a risky scoring maneuver.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2017, 07:15:57 PM »
Let's ignore gameplay mechanics that you dislike for now. There are enough Touhou games such that you can ignore the ones you dislike entirely. I assume you apply the same strategy to Megaman games.

You've identified problem areas, like Reimu's teleporting, which cause you to be miserable. A solution to satisfaction is to overcome these problem areas, one at a time. Every challenge you overcome is an accomplishment to be proud of.

What other problem areas are you facing? The players in this forum are very willing to help.

Also, watching gameplay videos on YouTube is more helpful than you would expect.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:18:15 PM by shockdude »
Playing Touhou since 18 March 2012. Playing video games since 19XX.
Normal 1CC: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC, HSiFS, CtC.
Extra 1CC: EoSD, PCB+Phantasm, IN, PoFV (K&S), MoF, SA, TD, HSiFS, CtC+Phantasm.
Hard 1CC: EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF, TD, CtC.
Lunatic 1CC: EoSD

The Greatest Dog

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2017, 07:43:37 PM »
I'm uncertain how you would say Ten Desires doesn't use gimmicks to obtain lives, when you have to run about the screen to pick up life fragments that never fall down. If you want to trance, you also have to either speedkill stage enemies (possibly using bombs in the process) or shotgun whenever given the opportunity. Picking up one life fragment per boss spellcard sounds like it wouldn't even give 3 extends.

Colors of UFOs don't change if you're in proximity to them. If you were on the approach, you would have ample time to see that they're not the right color. Even if they're partially obscured by bullets, you could still see the rate of their flashing increase and you have audio cues for when they do shift.

To say that MoF bombs are either weak or don't clear any bullets would be saying Alice's bombs in Imperishable Night is good for damage, or that either of Reimu/Suika and Marisa/Patchouli in SA can clear bullets effectively.

Regarding what nintendonut mentioned just above: it sounds more like if the intended way intrudes on a survival level, that causes frustration for you. But, is it right to expect to play along every shmup's rules in the same way? Certainly, we can't expect to play any of the Touhou games like you might play Ikaruga, Jamestown without Vaunt, CAVE games without hypers, or KAMUI without using any of the lightning weapons, or Hellsinker and all of its "oddities".

Though, it doesn't seem like we agree about that.

Since this Reimu conversation keeps continuing, I suppose a major factor is: Magic Team or Scarlet Team? I guarantee you that Remilia's shot is far better at damaging Reimu's nonspells than Alice's doll laser, but if you're adamant on using Magic then have you considered using Malice to damage the innumerable familiars at once?

Chill Observer

  • Aimless fanatic
  • haHAA
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2017, 09:44:16 PM »
You complain about DDC forcing you to go to the item collection point, yet:

EoSD and MoF use score-extends. You're going to need to collect items, preferably with the POC, in order to reach all possible score-extends.
PCB and IN use item-number extends. You're also going to need to collect items with the POC.

DDC also gives you resources on capturing spell cards. Speaking of spell cards, always make it a habit to POC after a spell card, no matter the outcome. Doesn't matter the game, you have enough time to do it on any.

The POC is almost always good. Obviously you shouldn't get greedy but POCing at whatever opportunity is largely encouraged, even as a survival player.

You also don't need to be "good" to get lives in any game. I'm an utter shit kid at the games and I still routinely manage to get enough lives to barely clear most of the games on hard difficulty (and a few on lunatic). And trust me, the titles mentioned do give plenty of lives even if you're bad at the game. You just need to take every opportunity you can to get lives and bombs.

Also, the fact that you're talking about disliking aspects about mechanics that aren't even true genuinely pisses me off. MoF bombs useless, seriously?

Most of SA bombs (ReimuB, ReimuC, MarisaA, MarisaB) require you to plant it in front of their face. Planned bombs are important here. You get power back so it's not as punishing to use bombs.

You complain about grazing in LoLK. But streaming is a very good way to dodge bullets and you graze lots of bullets this way. Also, since you're playing on a lower difficulty, it's much easier to "hug" bullets to get graze items per bullet. Especially if you play as Reisen and use her shield bomb, which makes grazing even easier and also allows you to take 3 hits per bomb.

TD actually doesn't give as many lives as other games. You can get a total of 7 lives (5 extends) and a large number of bombs through trance. With proper routing you can even get an 8th life, but no more than that. TD basically requires you  to abuse trance hypers as well as bombing spell cards for even more trance, then using trance on life pieces to double the amount you get.

UFO routes are largely static. If you play in a similar way, expect to get tokens the same way. UFO tokens are not random at all, the same enemies drop the same tokens and they fly around in similar ways.

Watch a bunch of replays and examine what they are doing. People aren't going to take you seriously if you continue to not listen to advice and state things that aren't true whatsoever.

If you want some simple 1cc's, play some fangames. A lot of them have much more generous systems and usually contain shot types that trivialize the game.
Retired Touhou player. Not involved with anything Touhou anymore.

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 10:16:21 PM »
Speaking of spell cards, always make it a habit to POC after a spell card, no matter the outcome. Doesn't matter the game, you have enough time to do it on any.
There are a few exceptions here and there (Remilia's second spell is a particularly nasty example). Generally excellent advice, but it's worth noting that it's not universally true.
MoF bombs useless, seriously?
This, on the other hand, I can get behind 100%. Seriously, even Reimu's is basically a free skip against the vast majority of boss phases, outdamaging all but the most outrageously overpowered bombs from other games (UFO Sanae B, a few incarnations of Master Spark, etc). Marisa's is even stronger. While they're not very visually impressive, they're hilariously strong. MoF may be my favorite game in the series, but I can't deny that 95% of it boils down to "press X to win."

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 11:01:37 PM »
As someone who also tends to complain about Touhou way too much and resets on stage 1 five hundred times because I can't figure out how to not die on the second damned chapter of stage 1 screw you LoLK lunatic, I think the best course of action here is to first just clear something that's easy. Even if you fail, at least you've warmed up a bit on your dodging. If you're feeling too frustrated, take a 5 minute break, maybe watch a replay or a video of how it's done, and try again. You should be calmer now. At least, that's what I (try to) do. ;)

If you just can't clear anything for the love of god, uh maybe try bombing more...? Dunno. Try to watch replays or videos and steal try to copy or adapt the dodging strats used there. It's helped me get through some difficult sections before (i.e. first half of LoLK's 2nd damned stage 1 chapter screw the 2nd half grrr). Sometimes you also need to just get used to the game mechanics. Do not be afraid to break some borders in PCB (remember, pressing Bomb during a border will break it!), do not be afraid to bomb everything in MoF, do not be afraid to get close to some bullets if you can't PoC in SA (or maybe do, I guess running into bullets isn't really the safest thing ever), do not be afraid to miss some spirits in TD since you get 40 trillion anyway, do not be afraid to miss the PoC in DDC (bomb instead, as bombs automatically collect all items!), and do not be afraid to bomb in LoLK and use the iframes to graze (or if you're playing as Reisen, do not be afraid to bomb even if there's 0 bullets onscreen).

Also regarding thcrap patches, I use the standalone ones, although, since I already know the story/dialogue for the most part, I just use vpatch on the Japanese/original version most of the time.

I guess I got detracted from the current topic and moreso just wanted to reply to the OP, sorry.

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2017, 02:08:52 AM »
Yeah I  have to second... Third... Whatever. The whole "MoF bombs are underpowered" as simply wrong. Sorry dude but... Its just wrong.

They DO look unimpressive (seriously ZUN did you run out of ideas/got lazy with bombing animations for this game?), But they are actually borderline game breaking... Especially since the game is very generous with them.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 02:10:57 AM by ILikeBulletZ »

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
  • gaining big pounds
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2017, 09:32:43 AM »
I don't run up and hump the POC Line constantly like DDC forces you to do.  LoLK is just bad decision after decision.  I hate grazing. I actively avoid shots.  Only time I graze is when I'm forced to graze. 

See you say UFO/DDC/LoLK have high amounts of extra lives but you forget one huge aspect to your sentence "15-20+ optimally".  See This assumes you're amazing at the game. Realistically I'm getting two  or three extra lives from those games.  Or in LoLK only the single fixed drop and maybe a random fragment due to how awful it's gimmick is.  DDC is just endless bomb frags and the pity life fragment. UFO is just HAHA GET FUCKED! You're gonna hold onto those two red UFO Bits for the entire stage. Enjoy endless Blues which exist to get in your way and taunt you.

Ten Desires ensures I routinely get about 5 lives even without effective trance usage. 

Also MOF bombs are the worst bombs in the game.  Don't even clear shots for shit and do no damage at all.  If you want anything like a bomb in that game just use the Marisa B glitch. 

I'm trying with some to get 1ccs on normal after I've gotten it on easy.  And I do feel miserable after playing.  A lot of the adapting you say is pretty much "No you can't have fun this way. You will do it THE WAY I INTEND OR YOU WILL GET NOTHING" which is just not fun. I miss when the gimmicks were not intrusive (SA/IN) or only beneficial but entirely optional (PCB)  The trend towards you gimmick is the only way you can get lives is just not fun anymore.  It's so tiring.  I just want another fun Touhou to come out. I don't want to have to wait a decade for something good to come out. Already done that too many times with other things I enjoy.

Honestly now, that's just plain overboard.

Do you actually really expect to get rewarded with resources just by sitting around doing nothing or only hugging, like, the bottom 1/10th of the screen? Even if it's a game, it doesn't mean just to stay inside your comfortable zone. To get resources, you gotta work for it in at least some way, which certainly includes moving around the screen collecting items or going up to the PoC border on some occasions.

EoSD's and MoF's extends are completely score based. PCB and IN give extends based on how many blue point items you've collected. Even these gimmicks will require you to do at least something to get rewarded with extra resources. LoLK is more challenging than the other games, sure, I agree on that, but it doesn't mean it's a de facto bad mechanic. As for all in-game mechanics, no matter of simple or how complex they are, you gotta analyze and learn them, which is gonna take its time and cost some mistakes. Complaining to that degree isn't gonna change anything unless you take action and practice them.

Regarding MoF's bombs,  I'll have to side with my previous three commenters. It's quite the opposite to what you're claiming. They clear a large portion of the screen from bullets and enemies, do considerable damage to bosses (except Kanako's VoWG) and even auto-collect all dropped items for you. Perhaps you were using it the wrong way, like hugging the walls, which is only way I can think of in which their effect radius only affects a small portion of the screen and hardly do anything.

Also in TD, if you want to maximize resource gain, you gotta go extra fast on some stage enemies or figure out routes of how to shoot them down, such as in stages 2-5 for the former and stage 6 for the latter. Considering this, it's kinda hard to comprehend that you can't be bothered to go up to the PoC line at least once after every spellcard in DDC, since if you don't die on them, they reward you with two fragments at once, of which one is obtained by PoC-ing the point and power items.


Like Satori suggested, maybe you could try out some fangames to calm your nerves? "Riverbed Soul Saver" could be fitting, since it drops resources en masse, you've got an extra large auto-collection radius and you get extra lives and bombs in no time. Or "Book of Star Mythology", a very recent release. Both contain really broken powerful shottypes with which you can charge through the games with ease.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 09:45:11 AM by Jimmy »
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

Zelinko

  • The Wandering Mind
Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2017, 02:33:07 PM »
With Bombs I'm usually dying with nothing left in the chamber.

Like Satori suggested, maybe you could try out some fangames to calm your nerves? "Riverbed Soul Saver" could be fitting, since it drops resources en masse, you've got an extra large auto-collection radius and you get extra lives and bombs in no time. Or "Book of Star Mythology", a very recent release. Both contain really broken powerful shottypes with which you can charge through the games with ease.

Thing is I just am like "Just say Not to OC Do Not Steal". 

What's the point?

Let's ignore gameplay mechanics that you dislike for now. There are enough Touhou games such that you can ignore the ones you dislike entirely. I assume you apply the same strategy to Megaman games.

You've identified problem areas, like Reimu's teleporting, which cause you to be miserable. A solution to satisfaction is to overcome these problem areas, one at a time. Every challenge you overcome is an accomplishment to be proud of.

What other problem areas are you facing? The players in this forum are very willing to help.

Also, watching gameplay videos on YouTube is more helpful than you would expect.

The Youtube watches I've found is the complete opposite as they approach things different enough from me to make it utterly worthless. 

And it's Seija's curving/reverse curving shots.  Not sure if it's proximity based but they always seem to do the direction flip right into me when I'm predicting them the other way.

You say you were drawn in by other aspects of the fandom, but you still seem pretty set on improving yourself on the games themselves. And again, how come you feel you need to win to the point of depression? It's okay if you don't succeed in a run; in spite of the memes, very few actual players these days judge a Touhou fan based on their skill level. It's okay if you play on easy mode, and it's okay if you don't like every aspect of every game. However, you do seem to have a desire to improve yourself, so what should you do?

In my humble opinion, you seem a little fixated on the idea that any scoring system requiring adaptation is the source of your frustrations. While it is true that I speak as a lunatic player, I feel there is fundamentally no difference to how we approach the score systems. As someone who doesn't like scoring, I don't really make much of an effort to adapt to them. To use DDC as an example, I never plan bombs in order to get a 2.0 multiplier and free life fragment; I just head to the PoC when it's convenient. In LoLK, I only graze to the extent that it's complementary to survival and my own preferred playing style. However, this still usually gives me adequate resources, even if it's far less than what I could potentially get.

If you truly hate the score systems as much as you say you do, then I think your efforts would be better directed at getting better at the patterns themselves, rather than focusing on gaining enough resources to tank everything. While it's true that is a valid strategy, if the effort is making you miserable, then you should try another route - one which lets you focus on what you find fun. As you get better at each individual segment, think about how many resources you need, and focus only on getting enough, instead of doing everything optimally. That's my recommendation, at least. If nothing else, you'll find yourself restarting a lot less often due to messing up a risky scoring maneuver.
And the only reason is that this is pretty much my only connection to doing anything actually Touhou related. The reason to keep going is to actually show I'm not utter garbage at everything.
This just becomes rote memorization which is just the opposite of fun.


To say that MoF bombs are either weak or don't clear any bullets would be saying Alice's bombs in Imperishable Night is good for damage, or that either of Reimu/Suika and Marisa/Patchouli in SA can clear bullets effectively.

Regarding what nintendonut mentioned just above: it sounds more like if the intended way intrudes on a survival level, that causes frustration for you. But, is it right to expect to play along every shmup's rules in the same way? Certainly, we can't expect to play any of the Touhou games like you might play Ikaruga, Jamestown without Vaunt, CAVE games without hypers, or KAMUI without using any of the lightning weapons, or Hellsinker and all of its "oddities".

Though, it doesn't seem like we agree about that.

Since this Reimu conversation keeps continuing, I suppose a major factor is: Magic Team or Scarlet Team? I guarantee you that Remilia's shot is far better at damaging Reimu's nonspells than Alice's doll laser, but if you're adamant on using Magic then have you considered using Malice to damage the innumerable familiars at once?

With MoF bombs you need to be right in the face of the boss which makes it more than useless. If a bomb doesn't actually go the full screen length it's garbage

And I don't touch any of those games mentioned.  No interest in them at all.

I usually run Magic Team.  And usually it's just Alice to ignore the familiars and just let it time out.  It's just a really bad drag.

You complain about DDC forcing you to go to the item collection point, yet:

EoSD and MoF use score-extends. You're going to need to collect items, preferably with the POC, in order to reach all possible score-extends.
PCB and IN use item-number extends. You're also going to need to collect items with the POC.

DDC also gives you resources on capturing spell cards. Speaking of spell cards, always make it a habit to POC after a spell card, no matter the outcome. Doesn't matter the game, you have enough time to do it on any.

The POC is almost always good. Obviously you shouldn't get greedy but POCing at whatever opportunity is largely encouraged, even as a survival player.

You also don't need to be "good" to get lives in any game. I'm an utter shit kid at the games and I still routinely manage to get enough lives to barely clear most of the games on hard difficulty (and a few on lunatic). And trust me, the titles mentioned do give plenty of lives even if you're bad at the game. You just need to take every opportunity you can to get lives and bombs.

Also, the fact that you're talking about disliking aspects about mechanics that aren't even true genuinely pisses me off. MoF bombs useless, seriously?

Most of SA bombs (ReimuB, ReimuC, MarisaA, MarisaB) require you to plant it in front of their face. Planned bombs are important here. You get power back so it's not as punishing to use bombs.

You complain about grazing in LoLK. But streaming is a very good way to dodge bullets and you graze lots of bullets this way. Also, since you're playing on a lower difficulty, it's much easier to "hug" bullets to get graze items per bullet. Especially if you play as Reisen and use her shield bomb, which makes grazing even easier and also allows you to take 3 hits per bomb.

TD actually doesn't give as many lives as other games. You can get a total of 7 lives (5 extends) and a large number of bombs through trance. With proper routing you can even get an 8th life, but no more than that. TD basically requires you  to abuse trance hypers as well as bombing spell cards for even more trance, then using trance on life pieces to double the amount you get.

UFO routes are largely static. If you play in a similar way, expect to get tokens the same way. UFO tokens are not random at all, the same enemies drop the same tokens and they fly around in similar ways.

Watch a bunch of replays and examine what they are doing. People aren't going to take you seriously if you continue to not listen to advice and state things that aren't true whatsoever.

If you want some simple 1cc's, play some fangames. A lot of them have much more generous systems and usually contain shot types that trivialize the game.

Streaming is just saying Eat bullets to the face even when Focused Reimu. Hugging shots is just saying "Zelinko go ram the shots!  Enjoy losing lives due to this asinine gimmick"

Looking at later on in LoLK there really isn't a point.  Especially considering it's just painfully bad looking later on.  And Clownpeice having forced movement style cards sucks.  At least Futo's rotation cards are nice slow and not having many shots showing up.

With SA I run Reimu A/Marisa C so those bombs don't have range requirements.

UFO's a game I've pretty much written off along with LoLK.  With DDC If there's a way to figure out if it's direction is fixed on Seiga's screen rotation is that or not  will determine if it's in the "Don't bother even playing" catagory.  She's pretty much "Bomb this boss as it's just not fun in the slightest."

TD's an easy game so the amount of lives isn't as noticed.

Also with IN/PCB style collection you don't really need to hit POC as much as you'd think just grab them normally.

1cc list in order
Imperishable Night - Magic Team (Easy)
Imperishable Night - Border Team (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Youmu (Easy)
Mountain of Faith - Marisa B (Easy)
Imperishable Night - Scarlet Team (Easy)
Ten Desires - Reimu (Easy)
Ten Desires - Sanae (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Mystia (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Yuuka (Easy)
Perfect Cherry Blossom - Sakuya A (Easy)
Ten Desires - Marisa (Easy)
Phantasmaoria of Dim Dream - Marisa (Easy) (1st Shot)
Lotus Land Story - Marisa A (Easy) (1st Shot)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Reimu (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Komachi (Easy)
Subterranian Animism - Reimu A (Easy)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 02:42:33 PM by Zelinko »
This Space For Rent

Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2017, 03:31:27 PM »
1cc list in order

Well then, you're not garbage at everything. Problem solved.

PCB in particular is on the tough side for an Easy mode, there's not much difference between Easy and Normal. I think you could get a Normal 1cc if you gave it a go.

My tips:
* First of all, be patient. Moving up a difficulty level is always going to be a process of gradual improvement until you get the 1cc.
* Start by clearing the game with continues, so as to unlock every stage in stage practice. (Exception: In MoF, because of the weird continue system, clearing with continues is harder than just getting a 1cc. However, MoF has a bug where watching a replay unlocks stage practice.)
* Split your time about half-and-half between attempting runs and doing stage practice. Both are important. Even when you're not ready for the 1cc yet, it boosts your confidence to get further than you could previously, come out of the early game with more resources than you're used to having, and watch yourself improve.
* Post a Normal replay so that we can have a look at it and give specific tips. There might be particular things you could do better, or particular patterns you're not understanding, that would be obvious if a more experienced player looked at your replay.
* Don't be so dismissive of streaming. It makes some of the nastiest-looking sections really easy. All you need to do is, if a lot of aimed bullets are coming at you at the same time (for example, most of MoF Stage 4), make small, steady movements and they will all miss you. If this isn't working for you, keep practising until you get it. It will improve your overall game enormously.

Jimmy

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Re: Getting to Enjoy Touhou Again
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 04:05:58 PM »
Thing is I just am like "Just say Not to OC Do Not Steal". 

What's the point?

And the only reason is that this is pretty much my only connection to doing anything actually Touhou related. The reason to keep going is to actually show I'm not utter garbage at everything.
This just becomes rote memorization which is just the opposite of fun.

With MoF bombs you need to be right in the face of the boss which makes it more than useless. If a bomb doesn't actually go the full screen length it's garbage.

Streaming is just saying Eat bullets to the face even when Focused Reimu. Hugging shots is just saying "Zelinko go ram the shots!  Enjoy losing lives due to this asinine gimmick"

With SA I run Reimu A/Marisa C so those bombs don't have range requirements.

I'm not quite sure what you're wanting to express with that response. The official Touhou characters are OCs too, not only fan-created characters, if we're talking about ZUN.  Also no, those don't really have "do not steal" written all over their faces. What would the Touhou fan community be if that applied to ZUN's (the official) characters?

Also, just bomb if you feel unsure about certain areas and if you still have any in stock. What are they here for if you don't even use them to shield your remaining lives? Sure, full screen bombs do make our lives easier, which however doesn't mean that bombs which don't cover the entire screen are completely useless. You really are exaggerating it here. Don't just sit around and move.

Streaming and grazing bullets isn't exactly running into them, given if you're doing it properly. You'll have to navigate into safe and more empty areas slowly to misdirect these streams of bullets, making them moving past you. Again, only sitting around on one spot would of course make you an easy target for any non-static pattern. That wouldn't even be the game's fault anymore if you don't bother actively dodging, or at least try to dodge bullets targeted at you. You gotta keep moving, focused or not. Accusing in-game gimmicks because of said reason is really arbitrary and has pretty much no other reason than you lacking practice, and I'm saying that just as a really average Normal Mode player who's been playing Touhou on and off for the past four years and because it was part of my experience playing Touhou. You gotta practice to become better, which includes grazing, streaming and pattern memorization. The stage practice function exists for a reason. These can really help making certain stage sections and boss attacks much easier, heed Mikuru's advice.

Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!