Author Topic: Danmaku!! @ Comiket Day 1 (Friday) East Hall Ra 59-a  (Read 21148 times)

Moogs Parfait

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Danmaku!! @ Comiket Day 1 (Friday) East Hall Ra 59-a
« on: December 12, 2016, 07:56:17 PM »



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Danmaku!! Project Update
So I am happy to report that not only did we successfully produce and release Danmaku!!, but the project is also a financial success. To that end, we're turning right around and fueling the production of our first expansion, Lunatic Extra. Formerly known as the "EX Expansion," this set includes late game bosses as playable characters.

I have a few pnp files for you:
Alpha Lunatic Extra Characters PDF

Alpha LE Characters TTS
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 03:22:57 PM by Moogs Parfait »

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 07:56:41 PM »
Reserved. Don't let anyone tell you Doujin is impossible in the West.

commandercool

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 11:28:42 PM »
Wow, congratulations! Super happy to hear that. I will be buying multiple copies (even though I haven't gotten around to actually forcing people to play the core game with me yet but I mostly intend to do that at cons and I have some coming up so hopefully soon)!
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 12:14:49 PM »
Color me hyped for the new expansion already!
While I only had little success with forcing convincing my offline friends to play the core game with me, I'm still looking forward to more news (and the eventual release) of Lunatic Extra.
Also, I'm really glad Danmaku!! is a financial success. You guys really deserve it! ^^

Flandre looks like a crazy character.
She can counter Futo's and Alice's passives of not having to discard power ups by instead making them discard items (including power ups), and her spell card is a more destructive version of Remilia's except that can be dodged.
And while Flandre is bigger on the offensive, she lacks the card draw from successfully dodging, meaning that she will not survive as long as her sister to make full use of her spell card.
Also, while Remilia can be argued to be a Partner (look, man, I can 100% guaranteed hit one of the bosses! Clearly I'm on your side!), Flandre can be less so, as her Spell Card hits up to three players based on seating position. So if there's only 3 players left, she is bound to hit the heroine no matter what.
She's really interesting and definitely a character I would want to try out at some point!

Good job on the card!

I'm also patiently waiting for the Mokou character card. ^^

jester147

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2016, 02:40:17 PM »
I never thought you would continue and make expansion packs!

Hope it isn't too complex and still enjoyable!

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2016, 03:29:41 PM »
I don't think it will be too complex. Even if it is Danmaku's modular design means you can use the LE characters without the new mechanic, or you can use the new mechanic in place of incidents.

Helepolis

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2016, 06:34:52 PM »
This is a surprise for me as well. I still have my copy of Danmaku!! sealed and untouched.


Mеа

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2016, 10:09:41 PM »
Congratz from me too! It's too bad it's a little hard to find random people around to play it with who are willing to invest some serious concentration.
I still have my staff member shirt sealed and untouched  :V
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 12:02:59 AM »
PNP files are up, sorry I'm late.

Alpha Lunatic Extra Characters PDF

Alpha LE Characters TTS

Wow, congratulations! Super happy to hear that. I will be buying multiple copies (even though I haven't gotten around to actually forcing people to play the core game with me yet but I mostly intend to do that at cons and I have some coming up so hopefully soon)!

Thanks! Also we will try to have a bigger con presence this year.

Color me hyped for the new expansion already!
While I only had little success with forcing convincing my offline friends to play the core game with me, I'm still looking forward to more news (and the eventual release) of Lunatic Extra.
Also, I'm really glad Danmaku!! is a financial success. You guys really deserve it! ^^

Offer them beer!  Most of the pictures I get from fans have tables full of alcohol, we accidentally made a great drinking game. I say that but I've yet to get any of my relatives to play...

This is a surprise for me as well. I still have my copy of Danmaku!! sealed and untouched.

I must have missed you ordering because I thought you hadn't. I was like "Well that's strange." and didn't want to ask.

Congratz from me too! It's too bad it's a little hard to find random people around to play it with who are willing to invest some serious concentration.
I still have my staff member shirt sealed and untouched  :V

Thanks! When I manage to play I only half concentrate because I always get focused as the creator.  :derp:
AX seems like it will be a thing for us so we'll have the year on future shirts. Also maybe it's just me but I'd like to make some nice button up shirts or polos. Why is all custom clothing tshirts?

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2016, 12:23:19 AM »
PNP files are up, sorry I'm late.
Wait, Yuyuko, what are you doing here? You're not an Ex Boss! Don't steal Ran's spot light! xD
And here I was thinking Flandre would be the number one target for the heroine (and everyone else). Seems we have a new winner.
Better keep some bombs ready, or else Last Word + will doom us all.  (Well, that, and her unavoidable attack once we're at 1 HP.) :ohdear:

Koishi seems interesting as well. Playing around with the subconscious and makes others forget their innate abilities.
Somehow, Koishi feels less threatening than her older sister, but at the same time I have the feeling that this is not actually the case.
Either way, I can't wait to test her out! ^^

Offer them beer!  Most of the pictures I get from fans have tables full of alcohol, we accidentally made a great drinking game. I say that but I've yet to get any of my relatives to play...
Funny enough, but my closest offline friends, as well as me, actually don't drink beer (despite being old enough). And despite living in Germany... what kind of Germans are we, anyway? xD

The Greatest Dog

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 02:23:03 AM »
Quickie question time. Koishi's passive specifies that she "chooses another character."

Is that limited to the characters currently being played or is her selection pool every character?

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 03:44:00 AM »
It's active players, defeated or not, just like Satori's spell card copy. I need to edit it for the next round.

Helepolis

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM »
I must have missed you ordering because I thought you hadn't. I was like "Well that's strange." and didn't want to ask.
I had ordered even  two: One for myself and one of the Dutch touhou community.

Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 08:32:40 PM »
Holy Crap thats a creepy looking Koishi.
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Spotty Len

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2016, 11:16:58 PM »
My friends will be delighted to hear an extension is coming. We usually play whenever we meet up and drink.

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2016, 12:49:24 AM »
Holy Crap thats a creepy looking Koishi.

As is appropriate.

My friends will be delighted to hear an extension is coming. We usually play whenever we meet up and drink.

So, when people send us photos out of the blue, 9/10 times there's a lot of alcohol on the table. We unintentionally made a great drinking game.

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2016, 02:12:32 AM »
And it's only today that I find out about this topic. Regardless...

PNP files are up, sorry I'm late.

*looks at Yuyuko*

Moogs, no offense, but that Yuyuko is seriously OP. Her spellcard and abilities synergize too well, to the point where people are going to want to shoot her down first just for showing up, regardless of who's side she's on.

Would it be okay for me to suggest an alternative Yuyuko?

---

Character Card
Mistress of Hakugyokurou
Yuyuko Saigyouji

Abilities

Once per round, when Yuyuko avoids an attack, you may discard a Danmaku card. If you do, choose a player. That player loses 1 life. (This is not considered an attack.)

Spellcard - Action
Lifespan "Ticket to the Ageless Land"

Choose a player, regardless of range. That player loses one life. (This is not considered an attack.)

---

Again, I apologize if I'm being harsh and forceful here.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 03:51:46 AM by Kirin no Sora »
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The Greatest Dog

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2016, 09:23:11 PM »
Are you saying that that's any different from people wanting to end Saigyou Ayakashi Blooming as soon as possible?

The games that I've played throughout the years have had issues with length. Having Yuyuko around who can bring the life total down and be an executioner sounds really great.

Targeting everybody indiscriminately with her spell seems like a very IN Yuyuko thing to do regardless :V

It's not like Yuyuko's passive does anything for most of the game anyways, and she can't accidentally kill someone she doesn't want unless it ends up being a Last Word she uses.

Well. Maybe it's not my place to say.

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2016, 02:48:31 AM »
Are you saying that that's any different from people wanting to end Saigyou Ayakashi Blooming as soon as possible?

When it's an incident that's the cause, it's not so bad because you're not hurting people's feelings. When it's a character that's the cause, then it starts to hurt people's feelings(namely the Yuyuko player), as no one wants to be exterminated just for picking a specific character. That sort of thing can sort of ruin the fun of the game, yeah?

The games that I've played throughout the years have had issues with length. Having Yuyuko around who can bring the life total down and be an executioner sounds really great.

I actually have a kind of better way in terms of combating game length.

---

Artifact Card
Nuclear Control Rod

Once per round, whenever you hit another player with an attack, you may discard a card to attack that player again, regardless of range.

Once per round, whenever you are attacked by another player, you may discard a card. Attack the attacker, regardless of range.

---

Character Card
Ferrywoman of the Sanzu
Komachi Onozuka

Abilities

During other player's turns, Komachi's max hand size is 7. Range and Distance +1 for every 1 life difference between her current and max life.

When a player is defeated, Komachi can either pick up to 2 of the cards that were discarded due to said player's defeat and put it into her hand or draw 2 cards.

Spellcard - Action

Hell "Narrow Confines of Avici"

Choose a player. That player is now considered to be in range to all other players, regardless of distance. This effect lasts until the end of Komachi's next turn.

You may attack a player in range.

---

The former is an artifact that speeds up the game by granting the holder additional chances to attack under certain conditions, while the latter is a character card that can mark a player for death by making it possible for anyone to hit them, regardless of range, making any and all Distance based defenses useless, and it rewards the player every time someone dies, encouraging the idea of bringing death to others, whether it's directly or not. This makes her a good partner, and also a vicious Stage Boss. Really, she can speed up a game by making it easier for other characters to be killed via conventional means, so it works(at least I hope that it does).

While on the subject of Character cards...

---


Character Card
The Sinner of Eternity and the Instantaneous
Kaguya Houraisan

Abilities

Kaguya may play Item and Action cards at any time another player could play their own Item and Action cards, and in response to her drawing or receiving cards.

Whenever Kaguya is being attacked or targeted by a Spell Card, you may discard an Item card from play to cancel it.

Spellcard - Action

Impossible Request "Bullet Branch of Hourai -Rainbow Danmaku-"

Attack a player in range. For each Item in play, you may attack a player in range. (You can choose a different target for each attack. A player can be targeted by more than one attack from this spell card.)

---

You can't bring Mokou into the game and not have Kaguya show up, am I right? (I'm aware that Mokou hasn't appeared yet, but maybe Kaguya can lure her out, perhaps?)

Kaguya's powerful in terms of Spell Card and abilities, but but she is highly dependent on Items to be effective with them. Combine that with no synergy in terms of actually being able to obtain the needed Item cards on her own(outside of her ability to not have to wait for her own turn to play any Item or Action cards that she gets from, say, someone giving her some cards on their own turn(Miko, Futo, Sanae), or from the draw after being hit by an enemy's Danmaku), and you have someone who needs planning both in using her and in playing against her.

I hope that I haven't taken too long in writing up all of this...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 02:54:13 AM by Kirin no Sora »
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The Greatest Dog

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2016, 10:33:46 AM »
so like, effectively Kagoog's spell is superior to Marisa's Master Spark in every way

Being able to devy up your attacks across multiple players, or focus them all on one victim; being able to use any item to fuel it instead of just power-up cards; not being completely no-selled by a singular graze because it creates multiple attacks.

Moreover, Marisa's passive lets her get reliable access to the "Borrow" effect by drawing one less card. Pretty tame, but useful when you need it. The passive of Kagoogs expands her ability to use the reaction effect of Bomb by at least 11 cards (4 power, 2 borders, 2 foci, 3 artifacts) which, ultimately just slows the game down with less spells being successfully cast and less damage being dealt.

Heck, she could even fill her hand with multiple Defense cards or artifacts as pseudo-bombs since you can play items when it's not your turn.

It, uh, also has very ambiguous phrasing when you say "being attacked or targeted by a Spell Card". Being attacked by anything? Laser Shot? Or only attacked by a Spell? Does Suika adjusting distance for everybody count as "targeting" Kagoogs? And so on.

Re: Komachi
So like is there a reason that she gets a Meiling hand size, as well as arbitrarily having additional range and distance at lower life counts?
She hardly even needs to use her spell to bring people in range because +3/4 range is so strong as is, while +3/4 distance at low HP means that very few things short of Mini-Hakkero, Laser Shot, Melee, Spear the Gungnir, and her own spell against her can get close to touching her.

It's also weird how her spell lasts until the end of her next turn, rather than the beginning of her next turn like every other lasting effect spell.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 07:44:04 PM by The Greatest Dog »

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2016, 10:37:32 PM »
so like, effectively Kagoog's spell is superior to Marisa's Master Spark in every way

Being able to devy up your attacks across multiple players, or focus them all on one victim; being able to use any item to fuel it instead of just power-up cards; not being completely no-selled by a singular graze because it creates multiple attacks.

Moreover, Marisa's passive lets her get reliable access to the "Borrow" effect by drawing one less card. Pretty tame, but useful when you need it. The passive of Kagoogs expands her ability to use the reaction effect of Bomb by at least 11 cards (4 power, 2 borders, 2 foci, 3 artifacts) which, ultimately just slows the game down with less spells being successfully cast and less damage being dealt.

Heck, she could even fill her hand with multiple Defense cards or artifacts as pseudo-bombs since you can play items when it's not your turn.

It, uh, also has very ambiguous phrasing when you say "being attacked or targeted by a Spell Card". Being attacked by anything? Laser Shot? Or only attacked by a Spell? Does Suika adjusting distance for everybody count as "targeting" Kagoogs? And so on.

Well, I was told that Instant speed casting was not supported in Danmaku!! and that giving the quick patch of reaction speed to Items was a problem. Also, people don't like sacrificing their Item cards to begin with. Still, if modification would be needed, then...

---


Character Card
The Sinner of Eternity and the Instantaneous
Kaguya Houraisan

Abilities

Twice per round, Kaguya may discard any number of cards from her hand to draw that many cards plus 1. (You must discard at least 1 card in order to use this effect.)

Whenever Kaguya is being attacked, you may discard an Item card from play to cancel it.

Spellcard - Action

Impossible Request "Bullet Branch of Hourai -Rainbow Danmaku-"

Attack a player in range. For each Item in play, you may attack that player again.

---

Dropped the defense against spell cards, switched out the instant passive for a passive that's effectively 2 Kourindous per round that you need at least one card in order to activate, and made it so that the spell card is locked onto the same target for all attacks. The double Kourindou per round lets her draw cards to try to get better cards if she needs to, but is ultimately not the most reliable thing in the world. As for the whole "superior to Master Spark" thing, bear in mind that it also has the same weakness as Master Spark in one respect: Items. Seal Away and Borrow can slow her down, and repeated Danmaku shots can reduce her offense even if she uses her defensive passive, as the sacrifice of an Item is a fairly hefty price to pay to cancel an attack.

Re: Komachi
So like is there a reason that she gets a Meiling hand size, as well as arbitrarily having additional range and distance at lower life counts?
She hardly even needs to use her spell to bring people in range because +3/4 range is so strong as is, while +3/4 distance at low HP means that very few things short of Mini-Hakkero, Laser Shot, Melee, Spear the Gungnir, and her own spell against her can get close to touching her.

It's also weird how her spell lasts until the end of her next turn, rather than the beginning of her next turn like every other lasting effect spell.

Meiling hand size is to hold more cards when her "collect cards after a player is defeated" passive goes off.
And NCoA is made to mark a person for death, since she benefits no matter who kills that player.
The Range / Distance defense measure is to keep people from instantly murdering Komachi in one go, and serves as a way to become more dangerous the lower your health is.
Also, to be at +3 Distance / Range means that you are effectively at one health most of the time, so the Komachi player has a little breathing room at that point, but not a lot.
And there are a lot of things that can hurt Komachi at that point:

Hijiri after using her spell card or when countering Komachi's attack with her passive.
Sakuya's and Meiling's spell cards, provided Komachi tries to attack.
Last Word and Yuuka's spell card, since neither of them care about range.
Tenshi's spell card, provided she has more Danmaku cards than Komachi.
Suika's spell card can negate the distance buff outright.
Youmu's Spell card makes everyone in range for her, so distance means nothing to her.
Cirno has a +2 Range passive, so she only needs a single Power to reach Komachi(2 Power if Komachi's max health is 5 due to her role).

All that, in addition to what you said can hurt Komachi at that point, and suddenly that Distance isn't a good a defense as one would of thought.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2016, 12:07:13 AM »
I'm on The Greatest Dog's side on this one, your cards need quite some balancing.
Let's start with Komachi and compare her to a similar character: Suika.

CharacterSuikaKomachi
Passive+1 Range, +1 Attack/ Turn = 1 Powerup      +1 Range/ Damage, +1 Distance/ Damage (thus, with 1 Damage about as good as Suika's passive, with 2+ damage way better than her)
+ Card draw for defeating enemies
+ bigger hand size
Spell Card       Change everyone's distance to 1-5Change 1 player's distance to 1 for everybody

Differences in Powerlevel: Passive Abilities:
Even without +card draw and +handsize, Komachi would easily be better than Suika. But with it, she's just a clear powercreep of the highest caliber.

Differences in Powerlevel: Spell Cards:
While Suika has to decide whether everybody should be out of range for her (or her teammates) to get a breather, or to put herself in danger and reduce even her own distance to a low number, Komachi simply says "Yo, everyone, kill this one person for me. Kthxbye!" Without putting herself in danger and still getting rid of the person she wants. And even if nobody else is attacking her desired target, at least Komachi has an easy time hitting this person now. And usually, you're just picking fights with one person at a time anyways, so this ability is simply better than Suika's most of the time.

(I'm not even taking synergy into account here, as both Suika and Komachi have great synergy between Passive and Spell Card.)
I think the table shows quite well why your Komachi needs quite some reworking.
After all, all characters should be about equal in this game. Yes, some are a bit more powerful than others (Yuyuko), that's unavoidable, but not to this degree.



As for Kaguya V1, it's funny how you first said something about combating game length, and then list Kaguya who evidently lengthens the game extremely with options to cancel attacks (thus saving hit points thus keeping the game go longer) and the ability to play cards during other people's turns, which, due to interrupting the game flow, also makes the game take longer.

Kaguya version 2, however, is also too strong.
Let's compare her to TWO different characters.

CharacterPatchouliAyaKaguya
Passive+max handsize         cancel Danmaku cards by discarding Danmaku cards+ 2 cards
+ cycle cards twice per turn
cancel attacks targeting her by discarding one item in play
Spell Card          + 2 cards+ 0 - 5 Danmaku cards (base chance per Danmaku card is something like 25% or so.)Attack a player 0 - x additional times.

Differences in Powerlevel: Passive Abilities:
Yes, Kaguya's cancel effect is less flexible than Aya's (btw, yours can still cancel Spell cards the way it is worded), but in addition to her other passive that (almost) freely generates two cards, which is an ability that is so powerful Patchouli (and Aya, too, to some extend) has it as a Spell Card, and additionally lets her cycle, she just has WAY too much power.

Differences in Powerlevel: Spell Cards:
Like I stated above, what Aya And Patchouli need their Spell Cards for, Kaguya can simply do in her passive. And instead, Kaguya additionally gets an ability that is just a straight up better form of Master Spark. True, Kaguya does not have the same item synergy that Marisa has, but instead, Marisa needs Powerups, Kaguya can use any item, so it's about equal again. But then Kaguya attacks multiple times instead of just once, each attack requiring a new Dodge card to evade, meaning you deal a lot more damage to a single target than Marisa on average.

So yeah, Kaguya is basically 2 - 2.5 characters in terms of power, even this new version.


As for the whole "superior to Master Spark" thing, bear in mind that it also has the same weakness as Master Spark in one respect: Items. Seal Away and Borrow can slow her down, and repeated Danmaku shots can reduce her offense even if she uses her defensive passive, as the sacrifice of an Item is a fairly hefty price to pay to cancel an attack.
That still makes it simply a better Master Spark. And Master Spark is not bad to begin with, even without Marisa's synergy.
As for Kaguya's passive standing in conflict with her Spell Card (her having to discard items to cancel an attack), in the worst case scenario, Kaguya does not make use of PART of her passive ability. But a) she still has the choice to use it and b) that does not change the fact that Kaguya's Master Spark + is better than regular Master Spark.

The Range / Distance defense measure is to keep people from instantly murdering Komachi in one go, and serves as a way to become more dangerous the lower your health is.
If people deem a character dangerous enough to want to destroy them in one go, that does not mean that you need to give them a defense mechanism, but to make them weaker so that other players do not feel threatened by them. Or leave them be and actually let the players kill them quickly. While it's not fun for a first time player, it's a risk to consider for more experienced players (not saying I'm okay with Yuyuko's current power level because of that, I'm just saying that you should not be making them even more powerful for the sake of new players.)


Also, to be at +3 Distance / Range means that you are effectively at one health most of the time, so the Komachi player has a little breathing room at that point, but not a lot.
+2 +2 is goo enough in my book already, IMO.
And with a Focus equipped, that puts her to +2 +4, which is kind of ridiculous.


And there are a lot of things that can hurt Komachi at that point:

Hijiri after using her spell card or when countering Komachi's attack with her passive.
Sakuya's and Meiling's spell cards, provided Komachi tries to attack.
Last Word and Yuuka's spell card, since neither of them care about range.
Tenshi's spell card, provided she has more Danmaku cards than Komachi.
Suika's spell card can negate the distance buff outright.
Youmu's Spell card makes everyone in range for her, so distance means nothing to her.
Cirno has a +2 Range passive, so she only needs a single Power to reach Komachi(2 Power if Komachi's max health is 5 due to her role).
That requires that at least one of these characters has been chosen by a player and the players of these characters do not believe to be on the same side as Komachi.
And while it is true that some characters can hard counter another, that does not mean that it is okay to create characters with this knowledge in mind. Every character should have about the same power, no matter if there are a select few characters that can counter you. Because, after all, there are characters who can counter the named ones as well, e.g. Tenshi can be countered by Patchouli due to get greater hand size, or Komachi, who... ehm... has a greater hand size and gets card draw for killing people, meaning there's a good chance she actually has more Danmaku cards in hand than Tenshi, if her player is smart.

What I mean in the end is, even if you are at 1 or 2 HP left, there's still a lot of ways for you to survive, and Komachi's passive is busted.

All that, in addition to what you said can hurt Komachi at that point, and suddenly that Distance isn't a good a defense as one would of thought.
The thing with distance is, though, that it is a big part of this game's mechanic, and the fact that there are quite a few Spell Cards and regular cards that ignore it is a little alarming to begin with.
As it stands, you should still operate with the though that, on average, each player only has one Powerup, and thus only a range of 2 (which is the only reason Focus is useful to begin with).
Thus, the fact that there are exceptions to the rule of Distance should NOT be taken for granted when designing cards for this game.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 12:09:24 AM by ShadowNCS »

The Greatest Dog

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2016, 02:15:19 AM »
Regarding defense mechanisms:
Yuuka is the character most likely to go all in dealing damage and killing everybody. She gets nothing to help her survive.

Utsuho is mostly likely to obliterate a singular target. She loses life for doing so.

Re: Komachi hand size
So you want Komachi to keep the cards she gets from other people killed on other turns?
Story time. Tenshi is even more likely to receive multiple cards during other people's turns because you usually take damage during other turns. Despite that, Tenshi is still stuck with her hand size of 4, and will have to choose cards to toss if she receives a beating.

I mean. Yeah. Hard counters to characters exist (see Sanae versus Aya for instant pichuun). That's inevitable. But Komachi and Kagoogs do ~so many things~ that relying on a few characters to hard counter them makes the game lopsided in the absence of those cards.

Heck, Kagoogs being able to discard an item in play to cancel an attack/spell is almost objectively better than Futo discarding to ~avoid~ attacks without removing side effects. Power creep is real, folk.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2016, 04:22:21 PM »
-snip-

Okay, I figure that I should point out that I was referring to Komachi, not Kaguya, when I was thinking of ways to speed up the game.

Regardless, it seems that I have grossly underestimated the value of Distance here. In light of that...

---

Character Card
Ferrywoman of the Sanzu
Komachi Onozuka

Abilities

During other player's turns, Komachi's max hand size is 7.

When a player is defeated, Komachi can either pick up to 2 of the cards that were discarded due to said player's defeat and put it into her hand or draw 2 cards.

Spellcard - Action

Hell "Narrow Confines of Avici"

Choose a player. That player is now considered to be in range to all other players, regardless of distance. This effect lasts until the beginning of Komachi's next turn.

You may attack a player in range.

---

I removed the defense for her, so that she can be attacked regardless of health total. The rest I hope is enough for a character without being too much.

Quote
Kaguya

I'm seeing that Kaguya's whole set up is simply trouble in her present form. Let's see.

---


Character Card
The Sinner of Eternity and the Instantaneous
Kaguya Houraisan

Abilities

Kaguya may have 2 Defense Cards in play at the same time.

Spellcard - Action

Impossible Request - Swallow's Cowrie Shell

Kaguya gains 1 Life and draws a card. Kaguya gains +2 Distance and Range until the beginning of her next turn.

You may attack a player in range.

---

Is this still too much?
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

ShadowNCS

  • Prinny Overlord
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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2016, 05:32:23 PM »
Okay, I figure that I should point out that I was referring to Komachi, not Kaguya, when I was thinking of ways to speed up the game.
I figured that was the case, I just found it funny, is all. ^^


I removed the defense for her, so that she can be attacked regardless of health total. The rest I hope is enough for a character without being too much.
She's better now. I only now realized, though, that Komachi gets 2 card whenever someone dies no matter if she was the one defeating them or not, which seems overly powerful. Don't forget, card draw is so powerful that it's the sole effect of someone's Spell Card, with nothing else added, so having it as a passive is powerful. If she only gets those cards if she dealt the finishing blow, it would be more balanced. I can't say if it's still overly strong or not, but it should be closer to the powerlevel of the official character cards.

Character Card
The Sinner of Eternity and the Instantaneous
Kaguya Houraisan

Abilities

Kaguya may have 2 Defense Cards in play at the same time.

Spellcard - Action

Impossible Request - Swallow's Cowrie Shell

Kaguya gains 1 Life and draws a card. Kaguya gains +2 Distance and Range until the beginning of her next turn.

You may attack a player in range.
Her passive seems okay, but I'm not entirely sure. One the one hand, two Focus cards would give her +4 Distance, and 2 Cherry Borders would give her a (1/4) + (3/4) * (1/4) = 7/16 = 0.4375 = 43.75% chance of dodging an incoming attack. However, getting two of one kind is rare enough to not be overpowered. And having one of each is powerful, but not only does she require enough card draw to make it happen, but in general is dependent on random cards rather than having a permanent passive effect (like Keine being able to cycle one card, or Suika basically always having one Power Up).
In general, random/ non-permanent effects are allowed to be a bit more powerful than persistent/ permanent effects, as they are less reliable.

As for her Spell Card, let's compare her to Eirin real quick.
Eirin: +1 life, +1 life for someone else (optional) = 2 life = 4 cards (roughly)
Teruyo: +1 life + 1 card + 2 distance + 2 range

If we say that 1 distance = 1 attack per turn = 1 range (as Power Up is 1 range + 1 attack per turn, Focus is 2 distance, thus 1 distance is half a card, 1 range is half a card, 1 attack per turn is half a card), that means that Guya's spell card is worth 2 cards (1 life) + 1 card + 2 half cards (2 distance) + 2 half cards (2 range) = 5 cards (roughly), so a bit more powerful than Eirin.

However, not only does Eirin need a team mate to make full use of her Spell Card, but Eirin's passive ability is also fairly weak on her own (but really good with a teammate), so in my opinion, her Spell Card is a bit more powerful to balance the weak passive.
Your Kaguya, however, has a good passive already, albeit unreliable, but nonetheless good even if Guya is on her own.
And if we take a look at Patchouli, whose Spell Card is worth 2 cards (the two cards she draws), you can see that Guya's Spell Card is a bit (a lot) more powerful. Although IMO, Patchouli's Spell Card is one of the weaker ones. I believe a good average for Spell Cards should be about 3 cards worth of power. They can be more powerful to balance out weaker passives, or can be weaker if a character has a good passive.
However, I think Kaguya's Spell Card is still a bit too much.

I would probably get rid of the + 1 life and only give her +1 range + 1 distance, or +2 range (I find distance to be a bit more valuable than range, especially early on, which is why I would not give her 2 distance)
Alternatively, you can give her something to make her look at the top 3 cards and keep any item she finds or something (if there are non, keep any one card). That would synergize well with her passive, give her up to 3 cards, minimum 1, and not drag out the game by giver her life (unless she draws a 1 Up while there are no Items). But I don't know, maybe this Spell Card is unbalanced, too, I just came up with it on the fly while writing it, ?so I haven't put too much thought into it.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2016, 10:18:17 PM »
She's better now. I only now realized, though, that Komachi gets 2 card whenever someone dies no matter if she was the one defeating them or not, which seems overly powerful. Don't forget, card draw is so powerful that it's the sole effect of someone's Spell Card, with nothing else added, so having it as a passive is powerful. If she only gets those cards if she dealt the finishing blow, it would be more balanced. I can't say if it's still overly strong or not, but it should be closer to the powerlevel of the official character cards.

The reason why Patchouli has a Grimoire as part of a Spell Card is because it's meant to synergize with her passive of being able to hold seven cards. Komachi drawing cards when someone dies wouldn't really be a frequent occurrence during a single game(limited number of activations equal to number of players minus 2), so it's nowhere as usable as a on-demand 2 card draw.

Her passive seems okay, but I'm not entirely sure. One the one hand, two Focus cards would give her +4 Distance, and 2 Cherry Borders would give her a (1/4) + (3/4) * (1/4) = 7/16 = 0.4375 = 43.75% chance of dodging an incoming attack. However, getting two of one kind is rare enough to not be overpowered. And having one of each is powerful, but not only does she require enough card draw to make it happen, but in general is dependent on random cards rather than having a permanent passive effect (like Keine being able to cycle one card, or Suika basically always having one Power Up).
In general, random/ non-permanent effects are allowed to be a bit more powerful than persistent/ permanent effects, as they are less reliable.

As for her Spell Card, let's compare her to Eirin real quick.
Eirin: +1 life, +1 life for someone else (optional) = 2 life = 4 cards (roughly)
Teruyo: +1 life + 1 card + 2 distance + 2 range

If we say that 1 distance = 1 attack per turn = 1 range (as Power Up is 1 range + 1 attack per turn, Focus is 2 distance, thus 1 distance is half a card, 1 range is half a card, 1 attack per turn is half a card), that means that Guya's spell card is worth 2 cards (1 life) + 1 card + 2 half cards (2 distance) + 2 half cards (2 range) = 5 cards (roughly), so a bit more powerful than Eirin.

However, not only does Eirin need a team mate to make full use of her Spell Card, but Eirin's passive ability is also fairly weak on her own (but really good with a teammate), so in my opinion, her Spell Card is a bit more powerful to balance the weak passive.
Your Kaguya, however, has a good passive already, albeit unreliable, but nonetheless good even if Guya is on her own.
And if we take a look at Patchouli, whose Spell Card is worth 2 cards (the two cards she draws), you can see that Guya's Spell Card is a bit (a lot) more powerful. Although IMO, Patchouli's Spell Card is one of the weaker ones. I believe a good average for Spell Cards should be about 3 cards worth of power. They can be more powerful to balance out weaker passives, or can be weaker if a character has a good passive.
However, I think Kaguya's Spell Card is still a bit too much.

I would probably get rid of the + 1 life and only give her +1 range + 1 distance, or +2 range (I find distance to be a bit more valuable than range, especially early on, which is why I would not give her 2 distance)
Alternatively, you can give her something to make her look at the top 3 cards and keep any item she finds or something (if there are non, keep any one card). That would synergize well with her passive, give her up to 3 cards, minimum 1, and not drag out the game by giver her life (unless she draws a 1 Up while there are no Items). But I don't know, maybe this Spell Card is unbalanced, too, I just came up with it on the fly while writing it, ?so I haven't put too much thought into it.


When I thought of the Spell Card, I was thinking of the fact that "Gain 1 Life" was never by itself on a Spell Card, and that +2 Distance / Range is less than one half of Hijiri's Spell Card, and drawing a card isn't too bad since she doesn't have the "max hand size is 7" passive, so maybe all of that together would work out. Besides, the only other thing I could think of for said Spell Card would be:

---

Spellcard - Action

Impossible Request - Swallow's Cowrie Shell

Kaguya can play 2 additional Danmaku Cards for this round. Kaguya gains +2 Distance and Range until the beginning of her next turn.

You may attack a player in range.

---

And I have no idea whether that's underpowered or even more OP.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

The Greatest Dog

  • Grazing at Mach 10
  • 90 Frames per Second GO!
Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2016, 11:04:47 PM »
I still think Komachi having 7 cards during other turns is unnecessary, moreso considering Rekindle Blazing Hell, Party, Endless Party...

Kagoogs new spell seems to give her two Power and a Focus temporarily (in addition to an attack). Which actually seems really tame.

Like the number one cool thing about Sakuya is being able to use all the shots you have in hand pretty reliably, without the need of power (not considering range).

Kagoogs needing to use a spell to empty her hand of shoots (albeit gaining distance temporarily) that she might not even have (due to no card draw abilities, etc etc) seems pretty rough.

Maybe, you should consider something that emulates her very own incident, Five Impossible Requests? Maybe like

~~

New Impossible Request "Red Stone of Aja"
Attack a player, regardless of range. The Hamon-charged attack deals two damage to vampires.

Then, that player discards their hand and draws up to one less than the number of cards they discarded.

~~

Though, there is probably a better way of fine tuning the numbers and specifics. Disregarding range is only because that stone did fire a laser beam, but that's being silly.
Forcing another player to lose up to two cards total if they graze the attack is rough. I would probably pair this disruptive spell with an underwhelming passive, like Cirno's abilities.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 11:14:46 PM by The Greatest Dog »

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2016, 04:14:14 AM »
*blinks due to inspiration*

---

Character Card
The Sinner of Eternity and the Instantaneous
Kaguya Houraisan

Abilities

Kaguya may have 2 Defense Cards in play at the same time.

Spellcard - Action

Impossible Request - Swallow's Cowrie Shell

Choose a player. That player gains +2 Distance and Range and can play 2 additional Danmaku cards. This effect lasts until the beginning of Kaguya's next turn.

You may attack a player, regardless of range.

---

Given that it's effectively three virtual cards as a buff, I might as well make it so that she can apply it to anyone, making it different from Hijiri's self buff as it can be used to support anyone, not just herself. The range ignoring attack that comes with it makes it so that you don't need to use the buff on yourself to hit a distant enemy, so you're more free to apply it to someone else.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2017, 02:57:07 AM »
2016 was a rough one wasn't it?

However, in the year of the Rooster we must go back to our Mythical roots and rise like the Pheonix!

Perhaps a mysterious elixir from the moon will help, or maybe you'll regret your decision for the rest of your unnatural life...nah.

Fujiwara no Mokou joins Danmaku!! as a Risk & Reward character. Her Spell Card gets more powerful the lower her life total is, and her Ability lets her hang out at low life without immediately being defeated. You aren't completely invincible as Mokou though, you'll have to judge where to keep your life total. Also watch out for pesky ghost princesses.

Mokou was illustrated by Saigyou Ayakashi Blooming's artist, Hyde, who you can follow on twitter: https://twitter.com/HydeTweets


jester147

  • Touhou, Rhythm Game, JRPG fan
Re: Danmaku!! Lunatic Extra
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2017, 12:39:22 PM »
Can I ask questions about the original game? Something's been bugging me after I played some sessions

A player is at last life, and is successfully attacked, so normally it drops to zero life and is defeated. The question is, does that player still draw a card before defeated, and if the drawn card is a 1up, can immediately use it and continue playing?

Spoiler:
Reisen is fucking OP