Topic: Touhou 15.5: 東方憑依華 (Eastern Flowers of Possession) ~ Antinomy of Common Flowers  (Read 48896 times)

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nyttyn

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Neither FS nor WaHH have clarified anything, no. That being said while we'll know for sure in a few months give or take, I'm running off the assumption that, like how they learned how to control urban legends in ULiL, the cast will learn before the events of the game how to use the possession phenomenon. If that assumption's wrong then all my guesses will be automatically wrong too (or at least, if they're correct, not for the reasons I guessed.).

As for one specific person - while it's pretty much garnered it'll be that way for the story mode I really hope it isn't for VS mode. The whole 'tag team' aspect would become extremely bland if you had no choice of who to pair. Of course this being Tasofro I would not be surprised if it was locked in stone even in VS mode.

Also yes, the urban legend system will be continuing. ACoF is a extension/continuation of that plot/mechanic, that much is already confirmed. It'll probably just build on/refine on it like Hisou did for SWR.

Edit: Though honestly, it's tasofro. If they don't push for at least some fanservice-y pairs I will be 200% shocked.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:57:29 pm by nyttyn »

Serela

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I would be -very- surprised if tag teams were concrete in versus, considering 15 characters already have full standalone sprites/moves/etc, along with the explanation that "it'd be a waste to have so many characters when you only use one, so let's do tag teams!". They'll likely only be concrete in story mode.

Besides, that would mean there is effectively only 10 characters, not 20, it seems like something that may have been mentioned by now. Granted, we don't know that much game info yet, but still.

And while the urban legend system continues, that's more of a plot device (And meaning that the occult moves may remain in some form) than otherwise; the occult BALLS are gone, so we shouldn't need to worry about having weather... again. Probably. Hopefully. At the least we won't need to chase balls during it if it does return.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

andykhang

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I guess in exchange for lesser storyline, they would instead pad each storyline a bit more to compensate player time, or we could play flipped perceptive of each tag team.

As for Sagume, I mean she is too strong the same reason that the Lunarian is too strong: They're story-breaker element, in ZUN perceptive. The moment they're in, even if the law is follow, the narrative of the game isn't confine in gensokyo anymore (which is the main anesthetic of the entire series it build up on), but with something else. Even in the case of touhou 15, we didn't suddenly played with a lunarian character tasked to take back the holy land or anything, even though they're the entire reason, because in the end it's the problem they have to solve as usual.

Plubio

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And ZUN doesn't put OP foreigner into the game.

Keep in mind ZUN also said Sanae wouldn't be playable in a game because she's a very strong character. He can change his mind at will to be quite honest.
Besides, while I do personally believe Watatsukis are kinda strong to be in a game, Sagume was defeated during LoLK using Spellcard rules — isn't this Gensokyo's premise?
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Serela

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Hecatia was beaten in LoLK too, but more or less, some of these characters are holding back a LOT in the spellcard fights. It's also hard to imagine a story mode where the person you're playing is like extrafinal boss status and basically just fooling around when it comes to the fights. Theoretically, it can work, but... I don't think it's likely they'd do it.

Although yeah the Watatsukis are mary-sues and furthermore don't really have interest in holding back, so even with spellcard rules it wouldn't be realistic to have them in a game unless Eirin's ultramarine elixir was involved. As ZUN said, it was along the lines of "They can't be in a game because that'd mean you have to be able to beat them." Sagume and Hecatia are at least up for fooling around.

Quote
I guess in exchange for lesser storyline, they would instead pad each storyline a bit more to compensate player time, or we could play flipped perceptive of each tag team.
Several of the story modes in other games were already highly inconsequential, and 10 is still plenty (and as many as some of the touhou fighters have had) so I don't imagine that'd be necessary. The "padding" in fighting games generally comes from versus play anyway; the story modes are still cool but I can hardly see them going "We need to pad out the story mode content more!".
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

nyttyn

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It's not even a stretch when we already have Yukari's story route in IaMP and SWR, which is basically Slayer. The entire point of the spell card rules is to allow ZUN to make whatever dumb extraturbosuperultra powers he wants and still not have to worry about power levels, with few exceptions (which he seems to not particularly care much about following anyway so who knows with him). At this point I'd honestly not even be surprised if the Watatasukis showed up with some sort of retcon or other crippling factor to their power - I don't expect it, mind, but very few things should be surprising from this man anymore I think.

I WILL be surprised if Yuugi doesn't make a showing though. She's already showed up in an ending which is as foreshadow-y as it gets and honestly with Nitori (for Oni servitude jokes), Shinmyoumaru (Mythology gag + playing off small vs large) and Kasen in the roster I'd be exceptionally shocked if they don't go for it. Something like 300%.

Suspicious person

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Keep in mind ZUN also said Sanae wouldn't be playable in a game because she's a very strong character. He can change his mind at will to be quite honest.
Quote
yada yada spellcard
Pretty much this. I don't really believe that being "overpowered" should be considered as an exclusion criteria for any character to be in any game *cough*Mokou*cough* ESPECIALLY if the premises of the game this time is that the enemy is TOO STRONG you actually need to team up to beat her down.

There are already plenty of OP characters who can do just fine in the games, even in the shooter ones. How is the issue of being overpowered tackled in these ? Through various character related motives : just a test, playing around, not feeling motivated, you name it... in this game for example, we should get a "took 2 of you to beat me" approach toward the supposedly OP new character.

Point is, fitting an OP character into a game really shouldn't be a problem at all : making it coherent would be the challenge toward creativity. Which ain't that hard.

Anyway, there'll be one guaranteed OP character : that'd be the villain in this game's plot : now the issue of being overpowered comes in the question of how to not only make the character balanced (gameplay wise) while STILL giving the message that she is pretty strong (cuz Touhou lore gotta be respected, y'know). And I say there might just be one way to do that :

See the ULiL interview in Strange CoOW and how some things were in ULiL ? It kinda gives the impression that there are a few ideas that Tasofro didn't get to implement in ULiL, like have Reimu have a hopeless boss battle against Sumireko's shadow for example ; and some other stuff they actually got to put in the PS4 one, such as battling EX Mokou or EX Sumireko in arcade overdrive : these are pretty OK ways of handling the issue. Just a challenge towards creativity.

It'd be pretty cool if Tasofro got to put those ideas in this game. Hopefully they will :ohdear:
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 03:57:54 pm by Suspicious person »
Hanako is still in ULiL.
The release actually considers Sumireko as 2 distinct characters. The shadow at the end of Reimu's intro is called hanako, and her assets folder only contains the sprite for her shadow and a few more things. And the game has another character, usami, which contains the actual Sumireko used in all other scenarios and in VS mode.
Maybe they were just lazy to merge them into a single character. Maybe they actually wanted her to be someone else. We probably will never know.

And about AoFC datamining, I don't think I'll work on the demo, because my goal when working on the ULiL demo was to prepare ULiL patching, and they changed their file format for the release. Maybe someone else will do it (if we have a demo)? Or maybe the ULiL tools will work on the AoFC demo?

mauve

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they probably just didn't merge.

iamp yukari's sprite pack contain a bunch of reimu's for the border scene story.

laziness is the sign of a developer that gets things done.

CrystalCreation

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ESPECIALLY if the premises of the game this time is that the enemy is TOO STRONG you actually need to team up to beat her down.

...

Anyway, there'll be one guaranteed OP character : that'd be the villain in this game's plot : now the issue of being overpowered comes in the question of how to not only make the character balanced (gameplay wise) while STILL giving the message that she is pretty strong (cuz Touhou lore gotta be respected, y'know). And I say there might just be one way to do that :
I don’t think the culprit not being defeatable by a solo fighter has anything to do with power. The series had plenty of really powerful characters all of which could be defeated by a single heroine. It wouldn’t make sense to suddenly introduce an even more powerful character who could somehow overpower every protagonist.

I expect AoCF to have another situation like LoLKs fairy invasion. Fairies are by no means stronger than lunarians, yet a whole army of them on the moon can render the lunarians helpless due to the fairies impurity. Even though lunarians are the strongest known species and fairies are one of the weakest, the fairies can still set them checkmate under the right circumstances.

The culprit in AoCF likely has an ability or some other means to set any solo fighter checkmate regardless of power. But once the heroines can circumvent that ability via perfect possession then the culprit probably won’t be much stronger than the average final boss.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 06:59:50 pm by CrystalCreation »

Plubio

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Speaking of demos, I've been thinking about the more-than-probable TH16 getting its demo released alongside AoCF demo on Reitaisai, and both getting their full release at Comiket.
Weird but not impossible (technically Soku was released the same day as UFO but well).

Just wondering, tho.
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mauve

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i wonder if the demo will run on my computer without having to fire up the debugger to take care of whatever misguided anti-hacking measure they did this time.

that sure would be nice.

OrbOrigin

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The culprit in AoCF likely has an ability or some other means to set any solo fighter checkmate regardless of power. But once the heroines can circumvent that ability via perfect possession then the culprit probably won’t be much stronger than the average final boss.

It could be the main culprit has an ability to transfer someone's mind and soul from one body to another body. This might explains why sudden strangeness happen during the climax of Reisen's scenario in PS4 exclusive ULiL. Apparently, the culprit seems trying to take an advantage during the wake of Urban Legend Incident, and thus the Perfect Possession Incident happens.

andykhang

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For the Sagume thing again: I said ZUN doesn't like putting OP foreigner as the player roster, I don't said just OP alone. Yukari and Sanae (I don't think she's that OP anyway) can still be there because they're residents of Gensokyo, more or less, and thus the narrative of Gensokyo's perceptive is still preserve. If you put someone like the Watatsukis in the roster, the narrative naturally have to be shifted to the Lunarian perceptive, breaking the heavily establish theme of the game. I don't know if ZUN want to do that or not for his game right now, but the pattern is consistent.

andykhang

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It could be the main culprit has an ability to transfer someone's mind and soul from one body to another body. This might explains why sudden strangeness happen during the climax of Reisen's scenario in PS4 exclusive ULiL. Apparently, the culprit seems trying to take an advantage during the wake of Urban Legend Incident, and thus the Perfect Possession Incident happens.

If so, I guess some unlucky indivitual of the cast is going to be possessed by the boss, and we have to fight them instead of the one we fight before. It would be consistent with the theme, and you could get away with having only 1 boss.

OrbOrigin

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If so, I guess some unlucky individual of the cast is going to be possessed by the boss, and we have to fight them instead of the one we fight before. It would be consistent with the theme, and you could get away with having only 1 boss.

Especially if one of ULiL participant is a key character in AoCF i.e. the culprit/final boss' main target.

When we talking about the culprit/final boss' ability, her ability is not only able to transfer someone's soul to another body, but also hijacking the unfortunate victim with her body surf-like abilities, effectively becoming her puppet in process. Hence the word "possession" on its Japanese title.

There's an implication when the events of ULiL still ongoing, the culprit (outside from Sagume's Lunarian mass migration plan) secretly analyze each participants' urban legend, and Sumireko is no exception. Then, in Reisen's scenario, the culprit makes her movement by tampering every participant's urban legend, along with their mind, body and soul. If this happens to Reimu and Mokou, then its implied the same phenomenon also happens to Byakuren and Miko as well, along with others.

Lt Colonel Summers

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Even though we currently have absolutely no information on the final boss of AoCF, I keep thinking that future fanworks will make her an expy of, or even crossover-ship her with Agent Smith from The Matrix movies, what's with the whole perfect possession thing being very similar to the Agents' possession skills...
A CYOA with an often disliked character! Yorihime Quest. Running now!
Also check out the CYOA starring our favorite High School Girl ESPer! Sumireko Quest. Running Now!

OrbOrigin

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Or someone like the second Colorless King fromK anime.

martelefort

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After seeing the last FS chapter, i think they hinted that the last boss might be Kosuzu

Sophilia

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Nah, this probably isn't her Incident.  It doesn't match with her ability, position, or the lead-in story via Reisen in ULiL.

She's being set up for something big though.  ZUN is working on a second project after all...  ;)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 08:47:18 pm by Sophilia »
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Fluury

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I'm kinda out of the loop, but super excited for this game! Even though the fact that it will likely be another float fighter is kinda a bummer...

Looking at the past's release dates of demos and the like, aren't we late on it?

Drake

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No, both this and what is likely ZUN's next game seem to be scheduled for demos at Reitaisai in May.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 03:48:42 am by Drake »

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OrbOrigin

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Nah, this probably isn't her Incident.  It doesn't match with her ability, position, or the lead-in story via Reisen in ULiL.

She's being set up for something big though.  ZUN is working on a second project after all...  ;)

But then again, FS is more leaning towards innocent bystander series; a series where in a world filled with powerful individuals, the main focus of the story is a normal citizen with no combat experience/skills whatsoever.

BTW, does anyone here make a speculation about the new gameplay features for AoCF?

martelefort

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Nah, this probably isn't her Incident.  It doesn't match with her ability, position, or the lead-in story via Reisen in ULiL.

She's being set up for something big though.  ZUN is working on a second project after all...  ;)

Of course it's only a theory on my side, but i think that it might fit her pretty well. Her ability sure has nothing to do with it at first view, but her position i think is quite interesting : she has access to an awful lot of youkai knowledge, Yukari is helping her out, and Mamizou said that she was cursed by the youkai power

Also, as she seems to be neutral to both Youkai and Humans and wants them to be treated equally, the AoCF accident seems to fit her, as for example if Reimu's spirit ends up in a Youkai body, it might reveal her how youkai feel and stuff and maybe change her way of dealing with them ( i doubt it though ). So it would fit her, as Byakuren said in Reisen's story that to get hold of an urban legend, it must fit your character : she has been posessed multiple times, so why not.

Also, what is the " second project " you are reffering to ? It got me really interessted !


But then again, FS is more leaning towards innocent bystander series; a series where in a world filled with powerful individuals, the main focus of the story is a normal citizen with no combat experience/skills whatsoever.

BTW, does anyone here make a speculation about the new gameplay features for AoCF?


I agree with you for the FS point of view, but it doesn't really deny her from appearing : She might be the culprit, but you don't necessarily need to fight her : you may be fighting random duos until the last stand, where you fight your duo partner instead of her. Might be interesting.

As for the features, i think considering the duo-system we might be able to have two characters with a shared-lifebar that you can switch whenever you want, or just an assist system where sometimes the partner show ups in combos or for a combined super-attack, those are my guesses for now.

OrbOrigin

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As for the features, i think considering the duo-system we might be able to have two characters with a shared-lifebar that you can switch whenever you want, or just an assist system where sometimes the partner show ups in combos or for a combined super-attack, those are my guesses for now.

Regardless if it's a 2 vs. 2 or 1 vs. 1 with assist system, it's about team versus team, right?

Speaking of the game features, I just got an idea of speculation in order to match the theme of the game.

If Hopeless Masquerade focused on popularity and faith, while Urban Legend in Limbo focused on urban legend via Occult Balls and Mystery Spots, then Antinomy of Common Flowers is likely about "anatomy of the soul". Sure, the urban legend thing is still ongoing, but it most likely the urban legend will be relegated into subplot (both story and gameplay wise) and the game will focused on this "anatomy of the soul" thing. I've got this idea of speculation after reading TV Tropes about "anatomy of the soul", as seen here. Here's the speculation about the new gimmick for this game.

During the match, there is an object called "flowers of soul". Similar to Mystery Spots, each flowers gives you a temporary buff for 20 seconds. There are 10 flowers of souls, each flowers represent each part of humans' soul; 3 being main component and 7 being extra component.

 The 10 flowers of soul effects are:
- Soul: Regenerates health gradually, but become faster if you're in idle stance.
- Mind: Increase the Spell Card power by 10%, regardless how much spell gauge you have.
- Body: Increase melee power and reduce the received damage by 15%.
- Heart: Regenerates spell gauge by 100 points, but become 200 points if you're in idle stance.
- Dreams: Occult Attacks will increased by 10%.
- Memories: When your character get hit by your opponent, your character's Occult Attack will not disappear.
- Karma: Each consecutive hits will grant you a 200 points worth for spell gauge, but it will reduce the spell gauge with the same points if you taking damage from your opponent.
- Inner Self: Instantly declare a Spell Card without a character cut-in.
- Essence: When grazing projectiles, every graze will converted into spell gauge, with each graze grants you 25 points spell power.
- Shadow: Grants you a full and unlimited spell gauge for a while, in exchange of reduced health when declaring a Spell Card.

If a character has at least 4 flowers of soul, they can spend all of them to use their Last Word. The more flowers of soul spent, the higher the damage.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 10:21:28 am by OrbOrigin »

Fluury

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No, both this and what is likely ZUN's next game seem to be scheduled for demos at Reitaisai in May.

ZUN's next game? Like an actual shooter again?

That's very neat. I hope they finally fix the issues of HM and ULiL, add a lil' bit of the depth Soku had in terms of cards and the like and we'll have a good fighter.

Given they both appear to be undergoing development in the same frame of time, would it be unrealistic to expect characters of 16 in 15.5?

CrystalCreation

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I think it‘s safe to assume the battle mechanics are going to be similar to how they were teased with Reimu and Mokou. In Ulil extra only Reimus body took part in the battle with Mokous body still being somewhere in the bamboo forest. But at some point Mokous soul(?) took over Reimus body. After the fight Reimu regained control over her body, but she still suffered from the burns Mokou gave ‘herself’ during the fight. In other words, Reimus body took Mokous ‘damage’.

So a 2 vs. 2 fighting system or an assist system would seem very unlikely since each team has only access to one body during the battle. I expect the fighting teams in AoCF to be able to switch fighters mid battle, but they will use the same lifebar since they use the same body.

OrbOrigin

  • Nickname: EleanorHolzapfel
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I think it‘s safe to assume the battle mechanics are going to be similar to how they were teased with Reimu and Mokou. In ULiL extra, only Reimu's body took part in the battle, with Mokou's body still being somewhere in the bamboo forest. But at some point Mokou's soul(?) took over Reimu's body. After the fight, Reimu regained control over her body, but she still suffered from the burns Mokou gave ‘herself’ during the fight. In other words, Reimu's body took Mokou's ‘damage’.

So, a 2 vs. 2 fighting system or an assist system would seem very unlikely since each team has only access to one body during the battle. I expect the fighting teams in AoCF to be able to switch fighters mid battle, but they will use the same life bar since they use the same body.

That's sound plausible. But then again, the game will focused on pair, similar to Imperishable Night; a team with two individuals with different personalities must work together to solve the Perfect Possession incident. No matter if they like it or not, voluntarily or involuntarily. Each pair have their own method to solve the incident.

Speaking of that, I re-read the premise of the game's story. But I found the most interesting thing about this part: "those who exploit it, those unwittingly dragged into it, and those working to expose the threat behind it..."

Let's say in AoCF, the complete cast of ULiL re-appear in this installment, along with some unexpected characters and newcomers alike. However, because the story itself sets between LoLK and the yet to be announced 16th main game, we can assume some LoLK character will join the fray. Here's some characters who keep their eyes open on this Perfect Possession:
- "Those who exploit it": Some participants who involved in Perfect Possession incident just for curiosity, to increase their fame, to fulfill their own goals, or just for the hell of it; such as Byakuren, Miko, Nitori, Koishi, Mamizou, Shinmyoumaru, Junko, Hecatia, and of course the main perpetrator(s) of the incident.
- "Those unwittingly dragged into it": Some participants who remain neutral from this matter, but unfortunately they forced to be involved in the incident; such as Ichirin, Futo, Kokoro, Mokou, Reisen, and possibly Sagume, along with Seiran, Ringo or even Clownpiece.
- "Those working to expose the threat behind it": As per tradition, it's Reimu and/or Marisa. Apart from that, we can expect other incident resolvers (AKA Stage 5 boss turned playable character in main games) will join the fray like Sanae, Sakuya or Youmu. Others who want to resolve this incident are Kasen and possibly Sumireko, the latter is trying to make up for what she's done in ULiL.

In regards of LoLK casts join into AoCF:
- If Sagume joins the roster, then we can expect the story will focused on how she tries to clean up the mess she done during the events of ULiL and LoLK. However, as andykhang said, ZUN doesn't like putting an overpowered foreinger into the roster. Instead, she will entrust her duties to Seiran and Ringo on her stead. But then again, we can only wait for a confirmation from ZUN.
- If Junko and/or Hecatia join the roster, we can expect the reason why they involved in Perfect Possession incident just for continuing their plan to avenge their respective relative's death towards Chang'e.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 12:04:00 pm by OrbOrigin »

Clarste

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- If Junko and/or Hecatia join the roster, we can expect the reason why they involved in Perfect Possession incident just for continuing their plan to avenge their respective relative's death towards Chang'e.

Hecatia doesn't actually care about Apollo, that was just an excuse to help her friend Junko take on the moon. And as revealed in AFiEU, Hecatia also just hates the Lunar Capital as a concept.

PK

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Little more info from THproject Archival here.
Ghost tail? Mima confirmed.
 

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