Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F

[elminster1372]

Oh btw it just dawned to me: since I'm considering replacing Komachi and Eiki with Tenshi and Iku due to the latest changes (luckily I still have around 10 tomes of reincarnation to use), I wanted to ask: how critical is it to have an attacker who can ignore defenses completely, in the Plus Disk? Would it suffice to have, say, the Monk's Iron Mountain Charge or Iku's 80% MND-ignoring normal attack? Or is at least one between Eiki/Kaguya/Rumia a necessity?

[Nyxnyx]

Oh well, and I was using diva Aya to grind B10f lol.

Which is better to build for suwako, Atk or Mag? I was using Mag during the Main game before the post game. Mishaguji was a fantastic trash clearer.

Edit: Another question, is it seem worth it to awaken Maribel as an attacker? Her collidor skill that buff liberated ability to 2x the damage seems really good. I've never used the sealing club before so still a bit curious how it would work, especially Renko, even as my fave character, has drawbacks on her spells.

[Serela]

Which is better to build for suwako, Atk or Mag? I was using Mag during the Main game before the post game. Mishaguji was a fantastic trash clearer.

I'd build her mostly for ATK, for bosses, but you can moderately invest into MAG and use that in randoms without a big cost. She's one of the most fragile characters in the entire game, so you only have to worry about her ATK, MAG, and SPD, so it's not hard to equip for both stats or swap one piece out sometimes for a boss. Her ability to use either stat means if NTR is resisted, you can sub for a good weakness-hitting attack from -any- subclass to make up for it, so you're probably gonna want some degree of both sooner or later. (I actually only just realized this- I thought she was in big trouble if a boss resisted ntr, but she can always hit weakness! Whew!)

Renko and Maribel are great. Renko's sheer stat potential is crazy due to maintenance and not being as fragile as Nitori and the really strong synergy with Maribel. Mari also has a really good awakening, because Liberated Abilities becomes fairly powerful against any target, and she shares 25% of her buffs as an extra stat increase for the entire front row- and 50% for Renko, making her even more stupid tanky. She's bulkier than you'd expect and with Renko she gets really nice, and has useful support for now and then.

What to actually do with Renko is slightly weird, since you don't want to Galaxy Stop on most bosses and Charge has a powerful effect, but major cost/delay and eats some HP. You can either sub enchanter to give Charge a much lower HP penalty (and maybe just throw some weak enchanter buffs to keep nukers topped off sometimes) or you can sub her something else entirely like Herbalist for less costly support. Her awakening isn't half bad since it turns her normal attack into a 25% damage buff for the party, but you have to do more than 0 damage, so you have to make sure she can... actually do more than 0 damage. Super Drill and MAG gems? >_> Mari synergy and crazy stats ensures she's useful, but there's a lot of different options for what to... actually -do- with her.

[elminster1372]

I intend to deal with Renko's Charge drawback by pairing it with Yuuka, as even one Extra Attack procced Gensokyo Reflowering can offset most of the Charge damage (plus, you'd not need to use Charge as often as you can use Gensokyo Reflowering). I'd probably open with Overflowing Unnatural Power, and then only use Charge now and then to refresh, with Gensokyo's Reflowering immediately healing off the dmg taken.

EDIT: Any input about whether or not piercing damage (I mean, Eiki-level kind of piercing, not Monk-like or Iku-like) is a must in Plus Disk?

[Serela]

Kaggy still only ignores 90%, for your earlier comment. (same with Utsuho) And since Iku gets double from debuffs, as soon as one is landed she ignores 90~95% easy. Eiki and Rumia are the exclusive sources of fully ignoring damage IIRC, barring Iku landing a hit on a 50% debuffed enemy or the minor amount from Piercing Attack.

Since NO plus disk characters have anything of note in terms of getting through defense, I can't imagine it's too terribly critical. As long as you have a couple characters with -something- decent (piercing attack, 80~90% piercing skills, maybe another with more normal levels of low-def-influence skills as those are somewhat common) you should be okay, I figure. That, or a willingness to swap a character or two out for certain bosses, as I've heard a few high defense ones are still around. (Not too hard to swap out for a piercing character with a glass-cannon build where you only worry about their atk or mag)

That being said I haven't played through much of plus. :T I can't imagine they're going to require Eiki when she's the only character that can really do it though.

[Nyxnyx]

Kaguya and Okuu did all my heavy duty jobs of killing any huge def enemies. But yeah there're other options as Selera stated.

I was testing enchanter Renko. I've noticed that the tooltip for my frontliners other than Renko only says "the ability to read star" in Japanese. I've got both skills moon and stars. Are they working together or only one is taking effect?

Also I believe that the bugs regarding all of the sealing club's members are fixed, right?

[Serela]

I was testing enchanter Renko. I've noticed that the tooltip for my frontliners other than Renko only says "the ability to read star" in Japanese. I've got both skills moon and stars. Are they working together or only one is taking effect?

Even if you only have moon, it will say stars. As far as I know it's working as it's supposed to, nothing on the jp wiki says it's messed up. Reading the stars is Renko's canon ability so I guess they didn't want to bother to code a different name when both are combined, or make it clog up the status bar with two different skills with how often it's up.

As far as I know the sealing club works fine now. edit:Test shows the stat boost from sealing club is definitely working

[RegalStar]

There's this one boss that you have to beat for a sigil to access 22F with lots of defense, but it's also very weak to poison so you can just drain its HP with that and then poke it once with something. (Kaguya or Eiki do make it a joke though since it's weak to SPI).

[DarkAtma]

I managed to fix the sound issue, but still the text issue remains

All my text is replaced with squares if i try running the +disk demo, yet my original japanese and the english patched one displays fine

any idea of what might be causing it?

[Serela]

Are you running the plus disk demo ontop of an english patched copy? That may cause issues.

edit:Well, I said that, but as long as you are using the plus.exe and not the english patch exe it shouldn't, actually.

[elminster1372]

There's this one boss that you have to beat for a sigil to access 22F with lots of defense, but it's also very weak to poison so you can just drain its HP with that and then poke it once with something. (Kaguya or Eiki do make it a joke though since it's weak to SPI).

I don't mind switching around chars for a single boss - I do remember, say, switching in Kanako just to beat Utsuho in LoT1 Plus Disk (that boss was insane). My worry was mostly about (1) random encounters, and (2) Endless Corridor, because especially for Endless Corridor, switching around characters is not really possible so I need a team which can cover everything. And while Eiki sounds like a boon in so many ways, I feel Iku and Tenshi together cover more roles (like, I checked some of the Plus Disk basement bosses and there are so many where I'd rather have Sword of Hisou than a piercing attack^^).

[DarkAtma]

Are you running the plus disk demo ontop of an english patched copy? That may cause issues.

edit:Well, I said that, but as long as you are using the plus.exe and not the english patch exe it shouldn't, actually.

I googled the issue and just downloaded the japanese pack font for windows looks like it fixed it

I still find odd how the original japanese runs perfectly and i had to download the japanese pack for the plus version

EDIT:Here is a screenie, left is plus and right is normal, left looks abit more....sharper? kanjis more closer? not sure how to explain it

[dawnbomb]

your right has a partial English patch on it because the shrine is in English ...

that probably explains your whatever you need explaining.

[Serela]

No, that's because it's his non-expansion game, so it's running in the same folder/files as his english patch'd one. This means it's using the translated image files. Everything else is in the .exe for the game, so if you run the game off the non-english .exe file, you're effectively running a totally unpatched game- just with the edited pictures showing up.

What probably happened is the dev changed the font the game uses in Plus version, and not all windows installations have this new one by default.

[LazorPagoda]

As a devout Eiki user, I say she is... alright. Her damage is always high, and always constant, so while she is really good, she isn't as satisfying to watch. Eiki's new skill only looks good if you want to clear trash, but you have her built for Last Judgement. I'm sad Diva Aya was nerred to hell and back, but she allowed you to smack enemies to hell and back so it's karma I guess. Youmu's buff is great, because now she might be usable. Sanae is even better, because she was good before, now better! Mystia is good without her synergies, st least with my experience. Her atk is high (at least mine has high atk). She is hella fast, especially with insrant attack. Her synergies and silence buffs are just icing on the cake.

[tsundoll]

Are there any fonts specific to this game someone might be missing? It's displaying fine for me, but someone I told the game about to said they're getting text cutoff and it doesn't look the same as mine, also some lines in the menu are untranslated. I sent him the same english patch I used. Only thing I can think of is he's probably not using applocale or Japan region since Windows 10.

[Battler]

I am a fan of making Renko a Guardian. With Easygoing she regens HP when she Concentrates, and Guardian gives her Efficient Concentration to make it faster. Throw on a piece of HP Regen-boosting equipment and she can full-heal herself while tanking pretty easily.

Incidentally, I'm a fan of having Renko Charge immediately followed by Mary DIY Novice Barrier to heal it off. The two make for a really strong duo.

[Serela]

Renko Guardian definitely isn't a bad option. Although it's also interesting to give her a first aid kit and just let her natural regen with Maribel do it's work... but when you consider you could also easily give her 100+ eva with the main equip or significantly increase her def/mnd (compounded by the sealing club and vision sharing increases to def/mnd, which don't affect hp/eva) jeez, there's a lot of great ways to build her.

[RegalStar]

Something about Futo's plates is that it doesn't just get reduced from being attacked; Any sort of move that affects Futo (including auxiliary moves and even Concentrate) will reduce it by 1. I reported this but it didn't get changed in 1.103, so...

[Serela]

Aww jeez! That's a pretty bad bug for her. I can't possibly imagine it's on purpose, though, so hopefully eventually?

[elminster1372]

I am a fan of making Renko a Guardian. With Easygoing she regens HP when she Concentrates, and Guardian gives her Efficient Concentration to make it faster. Throw on a piece of HP Regen-boosting equipment and she can full-heal herself while tanking pretty easily.

Incidentally, I'm a fan of having Renko Charge immediately followed by Mary DIY Novice Barrier to heal it off. The two make for a really strong duo.

That doesn't feel like a bad idea, though I'd prefer to give her Strategist to make her and Maribel's buff stick around for longer (Especially since I'll use them with Yuuka and Miko, who further appreciate longer buffs)

[Nyxnyx]

Come to think of it, how does library levels work? Is it a fixed value on each level or the value is according to a character's stats. Like, if I get 100 level health on someone like Komachi, that 100 level of health for Komachi will be more than one 100 levels on someone like Kaguya?

Just want to be sure how to spend things and this might help in customizing a character

Something about Futo's plates is that it doesn't just get reduced from being attacked; Any sort of move that affects Futo (including auxiliary moves and even Concentrate) will reduce it by 1. I reported this but it didn't get changed in 1.103, so...

So right now she's really hard to use? Since if buffing her means having a plate reduced....



As for Renko, I'm currently giving her enchanter to lessen the damage on charge and to make it powerful enough that my strategist Byakuren just chant herself and a 100% buff is there for the rest of the fight.

But this seems to waste a lot of free turns that a Renko with maintenance, which in turns makes her really fast, gets. Since I already have Byakuren for buffing after the charge and Renko turns are just free turns since you don't want to use Galaxy stop in many cases. I'm considering to change her into other subclass to provide other utilities instead.

[Serela]

Come to think of it, how does library levels work? Is it a fixed value on each level or the value is according to a character's stats. Like, if I get 100 level health on someone like Komachi, that 100 level of health for Komachi will be more than one 100 levels on someone like Kaguya?

It's another %age bonus to character stats, like equipment. So with a better base stat, you'll get more out of it. (And yes, if you increase their base later, you'll still get the benefit; it's not a one-time stat addition, it's a permanent %age bonus)

Level-up bonuses work the same way. Don't ask me which order these are all grouped in, though XD But I think equipment comes last (or at least one of the later ones), because in LoT1 it definitely didn't, so after plus disk inflation the stat bonus from equipment got kinda small on everything except SP (which you didn't need), and obviously affinities/resists. Wheras here as far as I can tell equipment boosts are still massive.

Yeah, Futo sounds kinda hard to use now, but it also sounds like it's definitely a bug, and one that major can't go ignored for too long, I imagine... hopefully >.> As for Renko, yeah, that's why I stopped subbing her enchanter too. Charge has a heavy cost and 0% delay, ontop of the HP cost, once most characters are buffed up it doesn't see a whole lot of use due to all those drawbacks; yet with her great Maribel synergy I still want her out. So, time to sub something else. Herbalist as usual is a good sub for just giving a support more things to do, especially as she's the only character too pathetic to easily use healer.

At least her awakening gives her a great option in just using the attack command like a free party-wide Herb of Awakening, granted it only works half the time unless you give her enough firepower to not hit zeroes >.> Well, that'd fix the Healer issue... having passive regen and the heal skills in addition to Charge and the buffed attack command sounds perfect.

[jaxter0987]

Post game showed us a glimpse of a few bosses that dispelled buffs so Enchanter Renko will still be my go to. My main party of 12 is still basically unmovable at this point. There are a few characters that interest me enough/ are waifu enough for me to run "suboptimally" but as far as actually feeling like Plus Disk characters will improve my team, a lot of that will have to come down to personal testing.

Marisa was among my main 12 for a long time but once I gave Yuuka a chance and tried her out, Marisa got the boot even though I really like Alice and MAlice Cannon. I just didn't need to utilize the MYS element offensively often enough and even if I do in the Plus Disk, Alice takes care of that with Hanged Hourai Dolls.

Satori was in my party for a large portion of the early and mid game but ultimately, she was too squishy and was too cumbersome to use due being limited to spells my frontline has. I might give her another shot and focus either ATK / MAG and see where that gets me. I'm realizing that Komachi and Byakuren are out in front almost all the time and their spellcards have nice formulas / effects so maybe Satori can make it back in.

So far, Kokoro, Koishi, and Tokiko are the only ones I want to try out to see if I want to add them to my team. Team synergy doesn't account for much since I'd have to have liked them enough standalone to be put on the team but I guess Proof of Kinship might make me rethink certain characters that have synergies. I still feel reluctant to overhaul my team to do so though.

[Serela]

In postgame, I think Satori actually starts getting more use out of subclass spells than the average copied spell, due to being able to get them to lv5 instead of lv0. Generic spells like Penetrator and Aspiration Surge become about as strong as most good attacks, albiet they don't carry special effects- but then strong skills like Explosive Flame Sword and the postgame subclass ones are much stronger than any but the best copy skills like Avici,  Mountain Breaker, and good composite attacks like Fantasy Seal.

That might sound kind of terrible (Anyone can subclass for these skills!), but since her corridor awakening gives her a big boost on hitting weakness in addition to her normal one, her ability to subclass for any weakness slaying move in ATK or MAG becomes relevant. (This is a good talent on any character with both good offense stats if you're willing to mess with their build, but might be a pain on people who aren't glass cannons and need more complicated equipment swaps) Unfortunately she still doesn't really do a compelling amount of damage for her squishiness now that Gambler is nerfed (Other people get damage boosts too...) unless it's Avici/Gathering-Dissipating or you running Earth Spirits >.> She can get some durability out of Quartz Charm and HP tweaking or something, but it only goes so far. It seems like Satori is only good in postgame if you're using her Max HP Damage awakening ability as a supporty hybrid wall, or running the family team to boost her base stats into something more compelling (along with boosting the other's)

It's also worth noting that some characters have exciting enough awakening abilities that Plus Disk characters aren't the only ones to consider putting in your team for postgame. (But you only get a handful of awakenings until pretty late in, admittedly.)

[RegalStar]

Even if the copied damage spells peter off, I'd imagine that copied support spells are still relevant. At least it's something interesting that she can do when the need arises.

[Serela]

Copied support is interesting for an HP wall build using her awakening HP damage. Otherwise, she's only a step over glass cannon due to nice HP, but without actually doing more damage than the really bulky attackers (even WITH the awakening weakness boost)... so being able to copy support doesn't justify the squish.

To compare, Mamizou is an HP squish attacker too, but in addition to damage up in awakening, she also gets a big dmg taken decrease and always hits weakness -without- shuffling subclasses, along with several other benefits.

I liked Satori back when she could sub Gambler and fire off people's skills at way stronger levels than they can, but now she's glassy for little benefit >.> I figure that's why he threw in the HP Wall role for her.

[Nyxnyx]

It's another %age bonus to character stats, like equipment. So with a better base stat, you'll get more out of it. (And yes, if you increase their base later, you'll still get the benefit; it's not a one-time stat addition, it's a permanent %age bonus)

Level-up bonuses work the same way. Don't ask me which order these are all grouped in, though XD But I think equipment comes last (or at least one of the later ones), because in LoT1 it definitely didn't, so after plus disk inflation the stat bonus from equipment got kinda small on everything except SP (which you didn't need), and obviously affinities/resists. Wheras here as far as I can tell equipment boosts are still massive.

So to make the most out of the money spent, I better pour the cash into the "better" stat that character has? Or pour it into stat that has been boosted by gems.
I thought it was a fixed amount so I put quite amount of HP into my Kaguya and still she manages to die in most situations lol.

Also, by "base", do you mean the level one stat or the growth of that stat? Or both? Since some character has same level one stats but different growth so I can't be too sure.

In postgame, I think Satori actually starts getting more use out of subclass spells than the average copied spell, due to being able to get them to lv5 instead of lv0. Generic spells like Penetrator and Aspiration Surge become about as strong as most good attacks, albiet they don't carry special effects- but then strong skills like Explosive Flame Sword and the postgame subclass ones are much stronger than any but the best copy skills like Avici,  Mountain Breaker, and good composite attacks like Fantasy Seal.

How much does leveling up a spell card do for damage? I don't think this was stated anywhere. Like 10% each level?

As for Satori, I doubt the HP damage role will be that effective since we're talking about bosses with more than 20 million HP approaching into the Plus disk and at most the damage from the skill will be a supporting damage.
With highest HP boosting equipment and all the skillpoints toward HP, I get my Satori to roughly 500-550K HP, which would mean about 250k damage per her turn. Unless you're running her with Reisen, for example, I don't think it's going to do much since main damage dealers do millions in one hit, and I have Keine and Rinnosuke to make those millions come out faster.

Speaking of which I think I have too many supporting, buffing tanks. Byakuren,awakened Keine,Hina,Rinnosuke,Reimu for the heal,Renko for when I run Maribel and Eirin in some occasion. Maybe I should switch some buffers out for damage instead

[Serela]

I thought it was a fixed amount so I put quite amount of HP into my Kaguya and still she manages to die in most situations lol.

Kaguya can become more durable than expected, her MND is actually -very- good, as are her affinities (and her DEF isn't beyond saving with gems, surprisingly), but she has perhaps the second lowest HP in the game to deal with. It basically REQUIRES a first aid kit to fix, but if you do, you can start getting somewhere. Give her an HP boost tome too!

Lv1 stats are pretty much completely meaningless, by the way. But it would be too much effort to completely remove them from the wiki. We mean the base growth. This can be viewed ingame on the second page of the status screen, one of the buttons scrolls it, but the wiki is generally easier.

Leveling spellcards increases damage (or healing) by 5%. So Satori copies deal about a quarter less damage than the max leveled attacks you'll likely have at that point in the game. Her non-awakening passive only barely fixes that up if she hits weakness. If you aren't copying the small handful of special spells (Last Judgment, Avici), there's not really any point to using her now that she can't even gamble for a 90% damage boost, and even then it's dubious- and her awakening -only- helps if she's hitting weakness with those attacks. Basically, RIP Satori.

About HP build Satori... it's sad to hear that ;_; On the upside, it's completely defense/affinity ignoring damage, and if you do pair her with a low-delay move user it's not half bad (although likely more effort than it's truly worth against all but the tankiest bosses- but at least it's good against those?). Well, it's something; when you consider she can use support skills AND deal that damage, it's vaguely...? Ah, oh well. But yeah, that's... a little too many tanks. Rinnosuke is kinda redundant if you're using Keine though I think, he's sorta outclassed in general for Plus unless you run Shou. And whilst Reimu is REALLY good after awakening, there's a reason I'm trying to drop her and use Rumia+Mari for MT heals instead; so many support characters! (We'll see if I can get away with it... Reimu tank looks incredibly helpful, and also enables a powerful offense tokiko)

[ZoomyTsugumi]

back to LoT1 briefly, I've started another NG+ run but this time with the idea of aiming for a relatively OP team to keep consistently throughout maingame, with a focus on usefulness in the last half rather than earlygame usefulness.

I've got Meiling, Reimu, Orin, Suwako, Ran, Nitori, Alice, Kaugya, Yuugi, Minoriko, Iku and Keine

Some of these should be obvious, I wasn't thinking about elemental spread when i was going for these so I may end up not having nukes in certain elements (like WND).

This gives me healers in Reimu/Minoriko with Meiling as a lil backup.
Nukes in Orin (FIR), Suwako (NTR and a supplemental MYS attack), Nitori, Alice (FIR), Yuugi (FIR), Kaguya (SPI). <on second thought this could have been spread a lot better :v
Bulky characters in Meiling, Reimu, Ran, Alice, Iku, Keine with Yuugi/Kaguya as one sided bulk.
Buffers in Reimu, Ran, Kaguya, Minoriko, Iku and Keine

So I guess this is a defensively oriented team, but thats fine.

Was tempted to pick up Marisa but I always tend to drop her when it comes to about floor 13 anyway so I figured I wouldn't bother.

I maybe also didn't need Minoriko since I've always gotten through the maingame just fine with only Reimu as a healer but I figure Minoriko can't hurt for extra heals and buffs and I couldn't really think of anyone else to put in her place anyway. I needed Keine to supplement Iku's offensive buffs since Ran could not reliably help cos of SP issues.

Maybe the weirdest choice in this entire list is Orin, but I wanted a faster character and she's more viable lategame than Chen/Aya because her damage is constantly good while the other two peter off towards the end.

I've already started the run so the team's not gonna change but feedback would be appreciated anyway.