Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F  (Read 189075 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #810 on: August 02, 2017, 06:05:32 AM »
Kinda dead here

Went on a break for a few weeks and resumed playing recently, started on that Infinite Corridor grind. So far I've just been exploring 1f for treasure, exiting, and repeating. The amount of stuff that you can get from treasure seems to be almost without limits, got two Scourge in a row (one from a 4! treasure, then a 2! treasure), a Medicine of Life (1280% HP and +128 to PSN/PAR/SIL/DTH), a Tokugawa Doubling Gold from a 2! chest (the main equipment tied with Machine God Lucifer as the most expensive item in terms of Seven Star Dust) and 3 of the materials used to create things like Machine God Lucifer after several hours.  Rate of acquiring Infinite Stones seems to be about 20 an hour on average (even 1! chests can give upwards of 5 Stones at once if you're fortunate), but I just found out that the amount of Infinite Stones you can carry at once is capped at 200. That's kind of important to know, so mentioning that as a heads up!

So far I've only seen one 5! chest, but all it contained was Earth Armor (+172% DEF, +50 to all status), an item that drops from 2! chests pretty consistently. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that you can pretty much acquire any item from any level of chest, and they just have different drop rates depending on the level.

Haven't really seen much talk about Infinite Corridor though, how many people are there?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #811 on: August 02, 2017, 08:49:46 AM »
Another victim of the 200 stones cap here, planned to stockpile 600 only to realise that my stash wasn't growing up probably at around 220~250 pieces.

It's been some time but you can get machine god lucifer in 40~50 floors though it's risky, so I went for scourge in 20~30 floors past this encounters level gets a too high lead, can retry boss battle without changing initial composition whereas wipe from random encounters is a straight game over.

Wrote down items I got from 5! and 4! chests if it interests you, too bad didn't input frequency.
Quote
5!
20個 無限の宝石

ブル-クリスタルロッド
クリスタルのおまもり
パワードラゴンスケイルメイル
究極の叡智「コデックス」
ウルンセルの刃
TNTパラノイア
スクル-ジュ
生命の薬
ロング・ソード「リンギ-ル」
トゥプシマティ

2個 オリハルコン
2個 アダマンタイト
鉄人のハチマキ

4!
3個 活力の宝球
3個 魔導の宝珠
5~10個 無限の宝石
猛特訓の書・攻撃

徳川倍増金
英雄の盾
ブルークリスタルロッド
ロング・ソード『紅蓮姫』
妖精「ナビィ」
TNTパラノイア
菊刀・菊龍征

オリハルコン
アダマンタイト
鉄人のハチマキ

As fun and thrilling battling random encounters can get there isn't enough reward for it even during lucky or risky floors, it's merely a way to open chests when running out of amulet and key.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #812 on: August 02, 2017, 10:18:06 PM »
To preface this, I've finished the entirety of the currently available Plus Disk content (except for that one super high-level boss since I want to fight it when you're intended to, it actually seems kinda easy if I build around it at level 550) including the currently available Endless Corridor stuff.

I didn't keep track of my rewards from the 4! and 5! chests (Or anything really), but I know for a fact that in 17 hours of grinding 1F (Yes, I did spend that much time grinding) that I never got a single Machine God Lucifer, and the three Tokugawa Statues/Doubling Golds (No idea what they are honestly) I got were from 3! chests.

On the first run I got a Scourge from the dust system but other than that I've only bought orbs with dust. Oh, and the 17 hours ended me up with 15 of the material used to make MGLs, so I had 5 as soon as I got the recipe.
The rarest item for me (Besides MGL) was Longsword Ringils, of which I got 2. I believe they were both from 5! chests.

Also, I highly recommend *against* grinding Endless Corridor super hard, I only have two Plus Disk runs (I'm working on a third though), but the one that grinded Endless Corridor had a much easier time and was just overstatted compared to the enemies, even with keeping library levels at 250/40 until level 450. The items you get are just so strong compared to what I feel the game is balanced around you having, even though you technically have access to all of it as soon as you get access to the corridor. Not to mention gems/orbs are strong too.

I recorded all of the boss fights of Plus Disk on the super overpowered run, so if anyone wants to see those just ask I guess.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #813 on: August 03, 2017, 12:07:52 AM »
Ah, is this your channel? https://www.youtube.com/user/TheKawaiiChen

YT had it listed on "Related Channels" while I was looking at mine, so I looked at all the Infinite Corridor stuff since not many people have uploaded for that. Particularly the 60f boss, Permitter of Destruction (at least, that's how I'd translate it, basic gist of the name is "One that allows destruction"), didn't see any videos of it at all prior. Oh wait I didn't see your nickname at first

I'm hitting on about 12 hours or so on the Infinite Corridor grind now, got 2 Tokugawa Doubling Golds (got a second one just minutes after the last post I made) and still only 3 of the MGL material. 333 Infinite Stones acquired in total so far. Right now I'm just trying to futureproof by getting everything I could possibly want (12 of each Second/Mega Boost item, 120 of each stat gem), gonna mess around with the bosses to try to find the right balance for them and see if there are any more improvements I can make to the team composition. I'm finding the Infinite Corridor grind pretty fun, especially compared to Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi farming (spent about 30 hours doing that to get 120 of each stat orb), wouldn't mind doing it for another hundred hours (building a music playlist with the game muted while I'm doing this anyway, Infinite Corridor's BGM is really awful lol).

After doing all of that would come grinding out levels in preparation for the next part of Plus Disk, but eh...based on how almost all Infinite Corridor bosses have a level gap of 36 between them, and the fact that there are datamined achievements that go up to
Spoiler:
512
, the highest point should be around
Spoiler:
2000
minimum, depending on if it goes higher than that or not (which it likely does). Although it doesn't have to stick to the established pattern, of course.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:12:11 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #814 on: August 03, 2017, 12:17:50 AM »
Yep, that's my channel. The 60F boss in particular I was really bad at facing, I don't understand Japanese at all so its gimmick is hard to ascertain and I was also just super overconfident.

I agree with you on the grind being fun -- I don't know what it is, it's just super satisfying. Personally I really enjoy the Infinite Corridor's music though, both the floor and battle themes. Little disappointed that the boss theme is just the FOE theme though.

EDIT: Also I was really bad about optimizing equipment and such overall during that run, I'm disappointed by that but I'm pretty lazy.
I also barely used Flan. She was nice for oneshotting randoms, at least.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:22:06 AM by Krhinji »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #815 on: August 03, 2017, 01:09:33 AM »
Ah, the 60f boss just uses the same self-defense lowering Shell Melter technique that the 6f boss Blue Orchid uses, plus its unique move "Countdown: Ragnarok", which just stacks a counter that gives it a 10% ATK boost with every use, nothing too special. The boss' defense is supposed to be so high that you have to wait for it to lower its defense to deal reasonable damage to it, but you can't wait too much or its ATK will get out of control. Since it's weak to SPI, I think Eiki can annihilate it pretty easily with Last Judgement, gonna try messing around with that kind of strategy when I reach it.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #816 on: August 03, 2017, 01:13:37 AM »
Since it's weak to SPI, I think Eiki can annihilate it pretty easily with Last Judgement, gonna try messing around with that kind of strategy when I reach it.

...Huh. On my first run that I got up to 60F corridor with everything else completed on, I could've sworn it was resistant to Spirit. I might be confusing it with Diamond Knight. That certainly would've made the fight much easier, Kaguya would've destroyed it, though she'd probably still get oneshot through Eirin silliness.

It's also weak to Silence and Heavy in my experience, if you ever need to mess around with that.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #817 on: August 03, 2017, 02:19:25 AM »
Yeah, Diamond Knight resists SPI, that's probably it then. I'm going off the affinity charts on the JP wiki. It also confirms a SIL and HVY weakness for the 60f boss, big old dark red X (0-9) resistance there. Though, from doing math calculations, Eiki should be able to 2HKO the boss after stacking a ton of damage boosters (Murakumo subclass, 150% Boost from Black and White Reversal, element/racial/weakness damage boosts, etc). Since that kind of strategy requires Eiki to Concentrate (taking a total of 3 actions, first hit should take off about 3/4ths of the boss' HP), it should be impossible to defeat it before it takes any actions even with Strategist getting 10000 ATB for everyone at the start, but 1-2 turns should be doable. Think what I'll do for that is go Iku/Sanae/Akyuu/Aya, have Aya switch Eiki in at the start, buff Eiki with the rest of the party (Akyuu'll go Elementalist), and switch Iku for Momiji for the racial bonus. Could probably skip Momiji and switch in Aya instead for Divine Grandson's Advent to immediately get that second Last Judgement in, gotta check in-game to make sure everything'll work like I expect it to.

If the boss has 50 SPI affinity and not 60 like I'm assuming, a one-shot should be possible (60 > 50 is roughly a 33% increase in damage), but I'm pretty sure it's 60. Both are handled by a red X symbol, but 60 is much more common for bosses to pack based on the enemy stats for the main game.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #818 on: August 09, 2017, 06:26:19 AM »
After spending a lot of time getting the SPD debuff off on Yukari's Mesh of Light and Darkness on resistant and non-resistant enemies alike, in both Plus Disk and the original game, I think I can say the Wiki is wrong on the SPD debuff's efficacy. Every single time I've landed it, regardless of the resistance of the enemy (I can't really test 70+ SPD resist since that's the maximum chance of the spellcard), in both the original game and Plus Disk, it's been a -50% SPD debuff. I figured I'd mention this here since I'm not sure anyone's ever mentioned it, and it makes Yukari quite good against enemies with low/no SPD debuff resistance. It's also AOE, so that's nice.

EDIT: Should probably mention that yes, this is about LoT2.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #819 on: August 09, 2017, 08:43:13 PM »
Oh, that's interesting.  Here's what it says in the spell card extractor.

Quote
Mesh of Light and Darkness
-------------------------

   MP        : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 5)
   Target    : All Foes
   Element(s): SPI
   Delay     : 50.00%
   Formula   : 120% MAG - 50% MND
   Multiplier: 1.20

   If level is greater than or equal to 2
      Set multiplier to ((((multiplier * 50) / 1000) * (level - 1)) + multiplier)
   Apply passive bonuses.
   If unknown_0008.06EC is greater than or equal to 12
      Set mp to 0
      Set atk to 0
      Set mag to 88
      Set unknown_00C8 to 0
      Set unknown_00CC to 0
      Set def to 0
      Set mnd to 50
      Set multiplier to 132
      Set accuracy to 0
      Set delay to 3200
   Set ailmPAR.power to (ailmPAR.power + 3800)
   Set ailmPAR.chance to (ailmPAR.chance + level * 4 + 50)
   Set buffSPD.power to (buffSPD.power - 2500)
   Set buffSPD.chance to (buffSPD.chance + level * 4 + 50)

-2500 SPD is not -25% SPD, it's -2500% SPD. Check out Cirno's Icicle Fall for comparison.

Quote
Icicle Fall
-------------------------

   MP        : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 3)
   Target    : Single Foe
   Element(s): CLD
   Delay     : 53.00%
   Formula   : 80% ATK + 80% MAG - 50% DEF
   Multiplier: 1.60

   If level is greater than or equal to 2
      Set multiplier to ((((multiplier * 50) / 1000) * (level - 1)) + multiplier)
   Apply passive bonuses.
   Set buffSPD.power to (buffSPD.power - 44)
   Set buffSPD.chance to (((level - 1) * 6) + buffSPD.chance + 88)

-44% SPD as intended. Looks like this was an oversight by the developer, it probably is supposed to be -25% SPD, not -2500%. Nice find.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #820 on: August 09, 2017, 09:15:59 PM »
-44% SPD as intended. Looks like this was an oversight by the developer, it probably is supposed to be -25% SPD, not -2500%. Nice find.

I noticed it as soon as I started my most recent run and Yukari slowed 1F Youmu down to -50% in a single Mesh of Light and Darkness, and I kept track of it for the whole game (I'm about to fight Murakumo on that run).

As for something else that I don't think most people have experience with yet, Plus Disk buffed Youmu is *still* pretty bad for the maingame. I imagine once you can max out a spellcard of choice she'll get a big boost to her damage, but just the 50% from Swordmaster's Spirit isn't enough to make her entirely worth using. She is cute, though. I'll definitely update on if Youmu is still pretty rough or not once I get to current late-game Plus Disk. I also think her WND spell might be her best spellcard most of the time just because its delay is so low.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #821 on: August 09, 2017, 11:11:52 PM »
As for something else that I don't think most people have experience with yet, Plus Disk buffed Youmu is *still* pretty bad for the maingame. I imagine once you can max out a spellcard of choice she'll get a big boost to her damage, but just the 50% from Swordmaster's Spirit isn't enough to make her entirely worth using. She is cute, though. I'll definitely update on if Youmu is still pretty rough or not once I get to current late-game Plus Disk. I also think her WND spell might be her best spellcard most of the time just because its delay is so low.

 Well, most of the new skills introduced are very expensive so you can't really get them until at the very least halfway through the maingame, since Youmu also didn't get any stat changes, she's just as bad as before during the early to mid maingame and Swordmaster's Spirit doesn't help too much against enemies with high defenses since it increases final damage. I was expecting her to be pretty bad until the actual Plus Disc were enemies have more reasonable defenses and she has enough skill points to max her spells, as well as being able to increase her ATK with gems and obviously the Awakening skills.

 I did use her in my most recent playthrough and found Momiji to be better at actually dealing damage against bosses since she's way easier to use (doesn't need to concentrate as often, can buff her own SPD, has Instant Attack, ignores buffs), that said, Youmu is surpisingly good at wiping out random encounters once she learns Swordmaster's Spirit since WND and NTR are common weaknesses in the later maingame floors, as well as the jungle and desert extra floors (you do need the Guardian subclass for the low delay concentrate though).

Knight

  • Reti or not, here I come!
  • WE WILL WE WILL FORK YOU!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #822 on: August 13, 2017, 05:18:33 PM »
My subclass suggestions:
Reimu: Healer (Reimu has a very powerful healing spell which also affects all allies as a cherry on top.)

Marisa: Archmage (Her lack of move type variety makes Archmage a must-have.)

Rinnosuke: Appraiser (Not a very useful buffer nor healer. Appraiser's skills work very well in conjunction with Rinnosuke's.)

Keine: Enhancer (Mediocre magic stat, but she has two useful buffing spells which affect all allies.)

Momiji: Warrior (Good attack and defence stats. Her spells are pretty strong too so I would like to take advantage of Enhanced Normal Attack.)

Youmu: Swordmaster (What else? She wields two swords and she even has a skill named Swordmaster's Spirit.)

Kogasa: Warrior (Only good subclass I can suggest. Just maximize her attack.)

Rumia: Sorcerer (Has a great mind-ignoring spell so it would make sense to utilize this subclass's passive benefits.)

Cirno: Swordmaster (Icicle Fall can already debuff an enemy's speed to the minimum amount so hexer would be redundant. I chose swordmaster to give her more elemental variety.)

Minoriko: Magician (Gaining the ability to give MP to allies makes her an even more versatile cleric.)

Komachi: Monk (The Shinigami's Work coupled with Area Normal Attack makes her a boon for random encounters.)

Chen: Hexer (This is a pretty gimmicky setup. Chen's self buff boosts her Attack up, but causes her defenses to plummet. Combining this buff with the Hexer's Conversion allows Chen to recover HP and MP each turn proportional to the strength of debuffs on her.)

Nitori: Transcendent (Maintenance and the transcendent's base stat increases can work wonders.)

Parsee: Warrior (Toxicologist's skills don't seem very useful the Parsee so I'll just buff her attack for the time being.)

Wriggle: Toxicologist (Pretty obvious choice. The stronger the poison she inflicts, the more her stats will increase from Kodoku Queen.)

Kaguya: Sorcerer (Kaguya pretty much ignores the enemy's defenses whenever she attacks so it would make sense to maximize damage output.)

Mokou: Guardian (In the plus disk version, Mokou aquires the Sheer Force ability, which ignores an enemy's elemental and status affinities. This means that she is guaranteed to shock an enemy using shield bash.)

Aya: Dive (EXTREMELY OP!!!!!!)

Mystia: Magician (Soothing Type? ability restores 1 MP to your allies when Mystia concentrates, so it would make sense to make her a magician.)

Kasen: Warrior (Kasen already has a self-buff which might be arguably better than Swordmaster's Stance. She would also benefit more from warrior's passives as she already has elemental diversity.)

Nazrin: Appraiser: (Her spells focus on increasing post-battle rewards, which means appraiser is the best fit.)

Hina: Hexer (Hina lives, breathes, and eats debuffs.)

Rin: Warrior (Great speed, okay attack.)

Utsuho: Sorcerer (Second highest magic stat in the game. Increase it as much as you can.)

Satori: Transcendent (I couldn't think of any better subclass so help me out.)

Yuugi: Warrior (Self-explanatory. Second highest attack stat in the game.)

Meiling: Warrior (Mountain Breaker is already ridiculous. Choose the warrior subclass to make it more ridiculous. If you want a more conservative approach, guardian works well too.)

Alice: Sorcerer (Only subclass I can recommend.)

Patchouli: Gambler (Patchouli already has crap defenses but the highest magic stat in the game so gambler is a very sensible choice. Great Library's Infinite Repertoire and High Stakes cancel each other out so you won't have to worry about MP reserves.)

Eirin: Healer (She's capable of overheal along with a great magic stat. And besides she has a red cross.)

Reisen: Hexer (Spam Discarder in conjunction with Enhanced Hexes for best results.)

Sanae: Enhancer (Level 5 Miracle Fruit + Enhanced Buffing = All Stats +48%)

Iku: Hexer/Toxicologist (I can't decide between the two. Help me out.)

Suika:  Warrior (I can't think of any other subclass.)

Ran: Enhancer (Pair Super-Fast Hard Arithmetic with Enhancer's Heart of Prayers and you can heal everyone including the reserve party.)

Remilia: Swordmaster (Remilia already has strong self-buff and she could use more spells.)

Sakuya: Warrior (Lunar Clock along with Jack the Ludo Bile will increase her speed as well as her attack.)

Kanako: Sorcerer (She already has spells which cover four elements and I wouldn't recommend sacrificing MaxMP and Base HP for an increase in BAse Magic.)

Suwako: Gambler (Her defenses are crap but her attack and magic stats are extremely high.)

Tenshi: Guardian/Strategist/Prophet (I included prophet because of Tenshi's natural ability to remove enemy buffs. Besides that, I can't seem to decide between the three.)

Flandre: Gambler (Screw defense, make her kill faster. She's all about damage. She even has a skill named Roulette of Destruction.)

Yuyuko: Sorcerer (Enhancing Deadly Swallowtail Lance with Enhanced Row Attack is a nice combo.)

Yuuka: Sorcerer (Self-explanatory. High magic stat so buff it.)

Yukari: Archmage (Archmage's self-buff will last longer in conjunction with First Category Perpetual Motion Device.)

Byakuren: Strategist (Make her buffs decay slower so she won't have to spam Sutra - Duplicating Chant.)

Eiki Shiki: Gambler (If you can't decide on increasing attack or magic, why not Zoidberg?)

Renko: Enhancer (Heart of Prayers will soften the HP loss induced from Charge.)

Maribel: Sorcerer (Vision Sharing means that Mind Assault will grant +4% magic buff to everyone.)

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 02:57:18 AM by Knight »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #823 on: August 14, 2017, 01:37:15 AM »
I'll start this off by saying a lot of your choices are team dependent ones in that some of them are tanks that can also be used as attackers and vice-versa.

My subclass suggestions:
Rinnosuke: Appraiser (Not a very useful buffer nor healer. Appraiser's skills work very well in conjunction with Rinnosuke's.)

Rinnosuke's healing is quite good late-Plus when you can max one of High ATK/MAG boost, and even better if you max both. Especially since buffed Rinno's healing is even stronger.
His buffing isn't that good, yes, but Enhancer gives him a 35?%ish DEF/MND buff to a single target on 7000 delay along with 15% to ATK/MAG/SPD and being a heal. It also makes Precise Information do the same thing but AoE and 5000 delay, though the heal is percentage. Unfortunately Heart of Prayers (Whichever one is healing a % of HP on buffing) doesn't work with anything besides Battle Command.
Personally I prefer Magician though, even if it gives him less to do than spam First Aid and Form Changes, since he'll never have to concentrate.

Youmu: Swordmaster (What else? She wields two swords and she even has a skill named Swordmaster's Spirit.)

I don't know for sure on this one since Youmu doesn't get that much of a benefit out of having more spellcard variety and more-so passives, but the one passive Swordmaster has might be excellent with her Awakening since it's a large base ATK boost. Personally I prefer Monk, but Guardian is good as well and again her Awakening might change things massively. After all you want to keep her at 1HP so Monk's regen is not that good.

Komachi: Monk (The Shinigami's Work coupled with Area Normal Attack makes her a boon for random encounters.)

Monk is great yeah. I like Warrior to make her Cold spell better but that's a team dependant sorta thing.

Mokou: Guardian (In the plus disk version, Mokou aquires the Sheer Force ability, which ignores an enemy's elemental and status affinities. This means that she is guaranteed to shock an enemy using shield bash.)
Aya: Dive (EXTREMELY OP!!!!!!)
Sheer Force doesn't completely ignore Elemental/Status affinities, it's just ignoring 1/3rd for Ailments. Which is still great -- she can land Shock on a lot of things and her ATK/MAG debuff gets better. She can also subclass Herbalist to make use of that 4MP regen if you're going the tank route. Attacking Mokou prefers Monk overall I think.

Diva is nerfed in Plus Disk so Diva Aya isn't that good anymore. I haven't seen it tested since then though so yeah. I like Warrior on her, personally, but there's a lot she can do thanks to her high speed. I've heard she makes a neat Healer.

Patchouli: Gambler (Patchouli already has crap defenses but the highest magic stat in the game so gambler is a very sensible choice. Great Library's Infinite Repertoire and High Stakes cancel each other out so you won't have to worry about MP reserves.)

It's team-dependent, if you have SDM crew her bulk becomes quite strong with the bonuses and base-stat increases you can get in Plus Disk. If you have Eirin too she can tank a lot of stuff. Gambler is great otherwise though, absolutely. Her being bulky allows her to stay out and utilize High Speed Aria well, which I enjoy.

Satori: Transcendent (I couldn't think of any better subclass so help me out.)

Again, team-dependent. I use Sorcerer in my current run where she can copy Gathering and Dissipating, Deadly Swallow-tail Lance, Hyperactive Flying Object and Moses' Miracle for a strong boost to those along with the standard buffs Sorcerer gives. Transcendent works as well and I'm sure there's a lot of other options, such as physical ones or Archmage, which I might use once I get to Plus.

Yukari: Archmage (Archmage's self-buff will last longer in conjunction with First Category Perpetual Motion Device.)

If you use her as an attacker Sorcerer is way better. It makes her WND attack insanely good and she'll permenantly be at +100% MAG with a strategist out. As a tank/support, Strategist is the only option I've found that fits. She doesn't need more spellcards and she usually sits out due to her amazing passives.

Chen: Hexer (This is a pretty gimmicky setup. Chen's self buff boosts her Attack up, but causes her defenses to plummet. Combining this buff with the Hexer's Conversion allows Chen to recover HP and MP each turn proportional to the strength of debuffs on her.)

It's definitely gimmicky, but it's not that good unfortunately. On the first turn of having -50% DEF/MND she'll restore 2MP but every turn after that she'll only restore 1MP. It's much better to go Warrior to make her damage absolutely bonkers on Phoenix Spread Wings and also to give her less ATK buff decay, which is also really important for her.


Iku: Hexer/Toxicologist (I can't decide between the two. Help me out.)
Suika:  Warrior (I can't think of any other subclass.)

Iku as Hexer doesn't work too well due to the same reasons as Chen. Especially since she only has a 70% chance to land each debuff once subbed Hexer, and it reduces what you can use as equipment on her due to losing out on all ailment resist items. I don't know why you'd go Toxicologist, but attacking Iku can sub Monk for all-target normal attacks, Sorcerer for single-target ones, or Enhancer/Herbalist for support stuff.
Suika should almost always sub Monk, it fits her wonderfully as a bulky attacker.

Utsuho: Sorcerer (Second highest magic stat in the game. Increase it as much as you can.)

Transcendant gives more MAG than Sorcerer does, and while you don't get buff upkeep Utsuho doesn't really need that with how much delay her attacks have. You can just re-buff her if you need to. It also makes her significantly tankier, which is a huge boon for Utsuho.

There's a few more in there that are just choices or differences on running a character as an attacker or tank/support but I'll leave them be since this is already getting too long since I got carried away.

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #824 on: August 14, 2017, 01:59:46 AM »
I think almost all of your suggestions were things people already thought up and already ran themselves. The two interesting ones that popped out to me though were Sorcerer Utsuho and Magician Mystia (Diva Aya is dead by the way, Diva got nerfed pretty darn hard).

Edit: I don't actually remember what the specific nerfs were. All I remember was that after reading them, I no longer considered Diva Aya to be a thing. Healer Aya is great though. I personally use Monk to help with delay costs but primarily because TP, SPD, and EVA were the stats I care about most. If my specific party set up didn't have a Healer already, Healer Aya is definitely the subclass I'd go for.

Before I go on though, I want to remind you that LoT2 is great in that you can build characters in a lot of different ways. Some are less effective than others but they still work if you want the character to function that way (have fun trying to make Patchy into a tank though...). Some subclasses on some characters are team dependent, but I don't care about that in my analysis.

I would have thought to run Transcendent on Utsuho to help with her Fighting Spirit stacks and Overheating stacks. Helps with her survival since her defensive stats aren't actually that bad.

Magician Mystia is just weird to me since she's a Physical attacker and you're giving her a Magic based class purely based on her being able to restore 1 MP when Concentrating.... which she almost should never being doing since she's so frail. You'd much rather have a tanky character spread Magic Circuit to everyone, than have Mystia waste time Concentrating. If Mystia needed MP, you'd switch her out. If your other members needed MP, Magic Transfer is so much better than Concentrating as Mystia so...

Oh wait, your suggestion for Iku is also kind of weird to me, I see her taking a supporting class like Healer or Enhancer, or an offensive one in Sorcerer. Sorcerer buffs her Normal Attacks to work well with Hagoromo Like Sky and giving her Healer / Enhancer is self explanatory. I just don't see Iku needing either Hexer or Toxicologist. Her DEF debuff is already top notch, and while Hexer can give her access to other debuffs, I'd rather have someone more suited to debuffing.

That is not to say Hexer isn't bad on her, its just not good not the subclass I would most recommend. As for Toxicologist... well lets just say I don't respect the Toxicologist subclass much if at all. I don't know how good a 3k power PAR is since its been so long since I've played. The HVY spell seems strong at 10k power but other than that, Toxicologist doesn't seem all that enticing. The DTH spell is pretty minor and the PSN one is even more so. Yuyuko does DTH way better at higher proc rates if you were going for DTH'ing random encounters and DTH'ing bosses should pretty much only be done by Yuyuko if its even possible.

As a side note, have we figured out what the different "power levels" of DTH even do?

Healer Reimu is overkill I think as her heal is already plenty strong without the extra power, and I'd rather give her buff a % heal and her party heal a DEF/MND buff on top of their normal effects with Enhancer, rather going extra hard into healing with Healer.

Also, please don't bold every other line. You probably did it to increase readability of the wall of text but instead, it hindered it because bolding every other line made it harder to read the non bolded lines. Just make liberal use of the enter/ return key instead if you wanted to make a wall of text easier to read.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 02:23:32 AM by jaxter0987 »

Knight

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #825 on: August 14, 2017, 03:06:04 AM »
I think almost all of your suggestions were things people already thought up and already ran themselves. The two interesting ones that popped out to me though were Sorcerer Utsuho and Magician Mystia (Diva Aya is dead by the way, Diva got nerfed pretty darn hard).

I didn't bother to sift through over 9000 messages (yes it's actually over 9000 if do the math).

Edit: I don't actually remember what the specific nerfs were. All I remember was that after reading them, I no longer considered Diva Aya to be a thing. Healer Aya is great though. I personally use Monk to help with delay costs but primarily because TP, SPD, and EVA were the stats I care about most. If my specific party set up didn't have a Healer already, Healer Aya is definitely the subclass I'd go for.

Yeah you're right. Diva is nerfed hard. It says on the Japanese wiki that both of diva;s spells have their delays set to 25% from 75%. Healer looks like the next best thing for Aya since she has pretty good attack.

I would have thought to run Transcendent on Utsuho to help with her Fighting Spirit stacks and Overheating stacks. Helps with her survival since her defensive stats aren't actually that bad.

Yeah, I guess I should run transcendent on high-magic and high-attack characters that already have passive buffs.

Also, please don't bold every other line. You probably did it to increase readability of the wall of text but instead, it hindered it because bolding every other line made it harder to read the non bolded lines. Just make liberal use of the enter/ return key instead if you wanted to make a wall of text easier to read.

I didn't want the mods to think I was flooding but that doesn't seem like a problem now. Thx.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 03:08:16 AM by Knight »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #826 on: August 14, 2017, 04:06:28 AM »
Speaking specifically about Iku and Tenshi, for Iku I also feel that Hexer was pretty useless because it wasn't very common that I had Iku set up without 100+ DBF resistance and didn't have a character buffing DEF/MND on the frontline. And even when that is the case, there are better subclasses. For support, Strategist and Herbalist are a higher priority, and for offense, Sorcerer, Transcendent, and Murakumo's Blessing (for when you can afford to use Three Swords of Divine Era, whether for Iku's personal spells or for Start of Heavenly Demise)  are all higher priority (Archmage is good if you need to strike a CLD/DRK weakness, although its spells are more suited for wiping out random encounters and it fares poorly compared to other CLD/DRK attacks in the game). I'm presently using Monk Iku while extremely overleveled (low 400s, Infinite Corridor 1f is about 170-230 or something like that) for Infinite Corridor grinding so she can one-shot most enemies, but when she's normally leveled with the enemy, I don't feel that it does enough damage to wipe out random encounters reliably. Her damage dealing capabilities rely on ignoring defenses, so she doesn't fare that well against high HP, low defense type enemies, or even average HP enemies.

For Tenshi, I mostly used her as an attacker since I'm running the Hisouten pair, but her offense is pretty bad when used without Iku. Without Iku, I don't feel she has much value outside of her ability to remove buffs (she's not that tanky outside of PHY attacks and lacks anything else useful to do besides debuff with the Plus Disk changes to her NTR spell cards), but if you wanted to use her, Strategist and Herbalist are pretty much the support subclasses for a stay-in character like a tank. Post-Awakening, I guess even without Iku she can deal effective damage, but I think it would be a bad idea to intentionally use her offensively without Iku, 40% more ATK is enormous.

Speaking more generally about the subclasses themselves than what to use for each character,

-Subclasses with offensively-minded damaging spell cards (I.E. not Guardian/Hexer/Toxicologist) are generally good for bosses that are weak to those elements, since striking an enemy's weakness is one of the best ways you can increase your damage. A 60 affinity weakness is pretty common for bosses, this is a 66% increase in damage. Pretty much all of them are viable to some extent when striking weakness, some notable ones would include Explosive Flame Sword from Warrior, Iron Mountain Charge from Monk, and both of Murakumo's Blessing's spells.

-For boosting personal spell card damage, Warrior, Sorcerer, Transcendent, Gambler, and Murakumo's Blessing are the main ones to go for. Transcendent is generally the best if you have a character that's buffing your attacker, having a straightforward reliable 10% damage boosting skill and getting another 10% or so from the bonuses to ATK/MAG it gives. If you have no buffer boosting your attacker's offenses, then Warrior and Sorcerer are generally better, since they can buff themselves. This is less prominent if you can't maintain 100% HP though. Gambler is great if you aren't going to get that character hit anyway. Murakumo's Blessing is extremely strong if you can afford the MP drain on all of the characters. Calculating how much damage you can do and determining how many attacks you need to defeat a given boss helps a lot with the usability of the latter two subclasses.

-For supporting characters, Herbalist, Strategist, and to a lesser extent Elementalist are good for boosting your attacker's damage. Having a Strategist at the front at all times is generally a good idea, putting that on a character that you want to be at the front the whole fight is usually the best way to use it. Herbalist is mostly useful for the 36% Boost it gives from Herb of Awakening, but this is incompatible with several characters, like Akyuu (both as a support post-Awakening and an attacker with Super Incantation) and Grand Incantation users. Placebo Effect is the best buffing spell in the game provided the character is already at about 60% in all stats. The low 7000 delay is key to its usefulness, since most buffs tend to lean toward 5000 delay. Elementalist only needs to have one of its buffs used every several turns, so it's unimportant to keep one in the frontline, but having one to switch in once or twice in a boss fight is good. 10% more damage over the course of several attacks is not to be overlooked.

-For more miscellaneous uses, Enhancer is good for MT buffers by making them MT healers at the same time, keeping your party reasonably healthy and mitigating the need for dedicated healing. Healer works well on Eirin, but also characters with Instant Attack too, for instantaneous single target healing when you need it. Instant Attack characters in general have good compatibility with niche tools that you don't need to regularly use, but don't want to waste time getting them out when they're needed, like Elementalist and Magician. Guardian's Shield Bash and Toxicologist's Numbing Incense are good sources for their respective status, but otherwise subclass spells aren't particularly effective for doling status/debuffs. Magician becomes less useful later in the game when you have a large pool of MP on everyone, not really sure how it does at that point tbh.

-No comment on any unmentioned subclasses because they're either not good or I've found no opportunity to use them to gauge their effectiveness.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to say (although it's rather obvious), Warrior/Sorcerer is really good for characters with Row attacking spell cards as well, and exceeds Transcendent by a solid margin for sheer damage output for that type of attack.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 04:24:15 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #827 on: August 14, 2017, 05:17:38 AM »
Hm, I think I've stumbled on a Plus Disk bug but I have no idea how it happened.
I just went down the stairs to B1F from 1F and... the entire entrance area, up to the Relay Point, is already mapped out like I stepped there. It might have to do with a previous savefile? But I have no idea.
http://puu.sh/x9zhC/7e06a390f6.jpg

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #828 on: August 14, 2017, 09:30:28 AM »
Hm, I think I've stumbled on a Plus Disk bug but I have no idea how it happened.
I just went down the stairs to B1F from 1F and... the entire entrance area, up to the Relay Point, is already mapped out like I stepped there. It might have to do with a previous savefile? But I have no idea.
http://puu.sh/x9zhC/7e06a390f6.jpg

When you start a New Game, in the Plus Disk, it also imports your explored map - i.e. whatever you explored in the previous game is already visible in the new one. Pretty handy if you ask me.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #829 on: August 14, 2017, 10:34:05 AM »
When you start a New Game, in the Plus Disk, it also imports your explored map - i.e. whatever you explored in the previous game is already visible in the new one. Pretty handy if you ask me.

That's... a pretty weird decision. If it was optional or something that'd make sense, but...

Is it *just* Plus Disk content that shows up as explored? A small test of starting a NG+ run on the same game has 1F completely unmapped.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #830 on: August 15, 2017, 09:14:18 AM »
That's... a pretty weird decision. If it was optional or something that'd make sense, but...

Is it *just* Plus Disk content that shows up as explored? A small test of starting a NG+ run on the same game has 1F completely unmapped.

All content you explored in the previous game is unmapped - except for a couple areas behind rocks which, fsr, keep getting unexplored everytime you go back.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #831 on: August 19, 2017, 05:40:10 PM »
New to this game and this style of game in general (have played all Etrian Odyssey games, but they really can't compare), and I'm kinda lost with all the customization, because I'm not sure where to start with it.
Should I be using all of my money in the Library? Is there any reason to increase lesser used stats (like defensive stats on Marisa, for example) at any point? Also, is it worth putting skill points into offensive skills? I can't find any data on what that actually affects.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #832 on: August 19, 2017, 07:18:52 PM »
Should I be using all of my money in the Library?

 Your money will mostly go into the Library, you can also use it to buy/craft items from Nitori but you'll almost always find better stuff just exploring (until postgame where you can craft some unique stuff) so it's not worth it; you do sometimes need to buy some things to recruit certain characters but grinding money for those isn't too hard.

Is there any reason to increase lesser used stats (like defensive stats on Marisa, for example) at any point?
Most of the time there's no reason to increase those, particularly because you'll generally not have enough money (unles you grind) to do so, so it's better just to increase the stats the characters actually make use of (until plus disc anyway where some abilities allow tanks to do decent damage and frail characters to become sturdy enough to take some hits).

Also, is it worth putting skill points into offensive skills? I can't find any data on what that actually affects.
It increases the ATK/MAG multiplier by 5% per level. As an example Marisa's Magic Missile has the formula [192% MAG - 60% T.MND] at level 1, at level 2 it'd become [197% MAG - 60% T.MND] at 3 [202% MAG - 60% T.MND] and so on, this also applies to healing spells; buffs/debuffs/ailments inflicted also get stronger depending on level. Edit: actually what Lonely says.

It's generally not worth it to increase these until postgame where you'll have the spare points to do so since each level gives a relativelly small increase in damage compared to most passives; this doesn't apply to auxiliary spells and certain spells that infict strong debuffs/ailments, the higher buffs/debuffs/ailments sometimes make them worth investing in.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 03:15:32 AM by Libra »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #833 on: August 20, 2017, 02:35:16 AM »
Just for clarification, crafting doesn't cost money, and leveling up spell cards increases the spell card's multiplier by 1.05x per level as opposed to increasing the ATK/MAG multiplier by +5% (I.E. level 2 Magic Missile is 201% MAG - 63% T.MND). I think the latter is a little more complicated to grasp with such a simple explanation, so I'll cite the spell card extractor using Magic Missile for example.

Quote
Magic Missile
-------------------------

   MP        : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 2)
   Target    : Single Foe
   Element(s): MYS
   Delay     : 58.00%
   Formula   : 160% MAG - 50% MND
   Multiplier: 1.20


   If level is greater than or equal to 2
      Set multiplier to ((((multiplier * 50) / 1000) * (level - 1)) + multiplier)

   Apply passive bonuses.

Normally, it goes (Formula) * Multiplier. For Magic Missile, at level 1, the damage will be calculated as (160% MAG - 50% T.MND) * 1.2, which is equivalent to 197% MAG - 60% T.MND. The spell card formulas provided on the EN wiki apply the base multiplier already. When you level up a spell card to 5, the multiplier becomes ((((1.2 * 50) / 1000) * (5 - 1)) + 1.2) = 1.44. Since we're not computers, an easy to understand way to apply it is to increase the spell card multiplier by 5% (1.05x) per level. Level 5 is a 20% increase, so 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.44.

So level 5 Magic Missile is a 230% MAG - 72% T.MND attack.

Basically, it does 20% more damage, simple as that. Level 7 spell cards are 30% more damage when maxed, level 9 spell cards are 40%. Since they're all multipliers, it doesn't matter whether you use the original formula or the one that the EN wiki shows that's already accounting for the base multiplier, slapping a 1.2x increase to either one will get you the correct result.

Satori's copied spell cards, which are level 0, work the same way, only reducing the multiplier by 5% (0.95x). For Satori, her Magic Missile would have a 1.14x multiplier (1.2 * 0.95 = 1.14), which would provide a formula of 182.4% MAG - 57% T.MND.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #834 on: August 20, 2017, 03:20:44 AM »
 For whatever reason I was always under the impression that crafting costed money  :V; actually didn't know about the spellcard thing, in the wiki it said it increases healing/damage by 5% so I always assumed it simply meant that it increased the multiplier by that amount.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #835 on: August 20, 2017, 04:38:25 AM »
The increase by level is in the simplest way possible, the end result will just go up by 5% effectively. So you'll do 105 damage instead of 100, 120 instead of 100, etc. Spellcards are the lowest priority for spending your skillpoints on as a result (although 20% damage increase isn't trivial, once you have a lot of skillpoints), unless it has an important buff/debuff/status effect that powers up with leveling. If your Sanae is mostly casting miracle fruits then you totally want to max it out for them bigger buffs!

Since library stats cost more to increase the more you level them, even less important stats can still receive a smaller amount of investment. When you're farther in and getting stats up to like lv100, you can get lesser stats to like 60 for quite little cost, for example. And on characters like Marisa, well, her MND actually is pretty nice, so she can take a decent magic hit... but you wouldn't invest too much defensively because she'll die to any physicals.
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jaxter0987

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #836 on: August 20, 2017, 06:21:16 AM »
I didn't bother to sift through over 9000 messages (yes it's actually over 9000 if do the math).
That wasn't the point. It was a poor attempt at conveying that most of what you suggested were "common sense" if you will.
Yeah, I guess I should run transcendent on high-magic and high-attack characters that already have passive buffs.
Yes, when two of her most powerful skills want her to be a stay in bulky fighter, it SURE is nice being to boost her not bad defensive stats as well as her attack stats. You can build her however you want, but Transcendent on Utsuho is really strong.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #837 on: August 20, 2017, 09:39:31 AM »
About the defensive stat thing... I don't think it is a good idea to leave them fully uninvested just because your char is on the frail side. This is not THL1 - between stat gems, kinship bonuses, and stat tomes, the distance between frail chars and bulky chars is much lower in THL2 than what used to be in THL1. Whereas in THL1 chars like Marisa, Suwako, or Kaguya simply didn't have much use for their defense (except maybe until lvl 500 or so), in THL2 it's not rare for such chars to be able to survive a blow. And while THL1's library costs were such that raising low stats actually costed MORE than raising high stats (for ex, raising Youmu's Mind, say, to library lvl 100 costs almost double what you'd pay to raise its Attack or HP to lvl 100, too), in THL2 the library cost for each stat on the same char is the same. You won't see much of a difference at lower levels (when you'll still lack such gems/kinships etc.), but even before postgame, you should consider investing equally in all stats.

In general, THL2 chars are overall significantly bulkier than their THL1 counterparts, and the whole game mechanics (including stuff like constant buffs and much lower delays on attacks, compared to THL1) encourages a "stay-and-fight" strategy as opposed to THL1's "hit-and-switch" one - of course, unless you use long-delay nukes like Nitori with dedicated switchers like Keine.

EDIT: Anyway, @Kholdi, do not be too worried about getting things wrong. First of all, there are many less ways to actually get things wrong in THL2 (where a lot of stuff just works), compared to THL1 (where there are a few good options which vastly outclass everything else). Second, skill points and lvl stat bonuses can be reset whenever you feel like, for free. Third, unless you buy those exp increasing skills, characters not in your party get the same amount of exp of those in your party, so you can replace a char later on and it won't be at an xp disadvantage like in THL1. Finally, even if you commit a mistake with library points, you can still reset them (with a refund) using Tomes of Reincarnation. They're in a limited quantity until postgame, but you still get quite a few - around 17-18 excluding Plus Disk, if I recall correctly. That should be more than enough for all your resetting needs.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:48:09 AM by elminster1372 »

RegalStar

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #838 on: August 20, 2017, 02:09:44 PM »
New to this game and this style of game in general (have played all Etrian Odyssey games, but they really can't compare), and I'm kinda lost with all the customization, because I'm not sure where to start with it.
Should I be using all of my money in the Library? Is there any reason to increase lesser used stats (like defensive stats on Marisa, for example) at any point? Also, is it worth putting skill points into offensive skills? I can't find any data on what that actually affects.

Early on you should just spend a couple levels on everyone so you can fulfill the requirement for Patchouli's sidequest/recruitment, then save them for Sakes in Nitori's Shop because you'll need them to recruit Suika. Other than that, they all go in the library yeah.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #839 on: August 23, 2017, 05:58:39 PM »
Finally done with farming stat gems in Infinite Corridor, took somewhere around 55-60 hours. Totally lost track of my playtime before I started. So far I've seen 90 different enemies in the Infinite Corridor, not sure if that's the full number or if more enemies will show up on later floors (still on 1f). Most (1/3rd or more) are weak to FIR, SPI, and PHY (SPI is most common), while MYS and DRK have less than 20 of those 90 enemies weak to it. I'm thinking of making a spreadsheet or something (any kind of info dump that people can readily access) containing enemy HP (using Akyuu for this), weaknesses, and maybe some comments on notable enemies, if that's something that people might find useful. Wanna get to 100f before I do that though, to make sure I've seen all the enemies and to get actually useful stats. All of them are at level 1 in Keine's database, which provides insight on their HP relative to each other, but not how much HP they'll have when you fight them.