Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F  (Read 188986 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #780 on: June 29, 2017, 12:48:39 AM »
Ktaken is dead, thanks for the tips! Next I have to beat the plant shadow on floor 7, I'm super behind now. Tho I am average level 148 from instant death grinding on floor 21

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #781 on: July 02, 2017, 06:17:16 PM »
I was looking in the backlogs of this topic and found that I had forgotten to put in an awakening skill that was found for Shou, so it's been updated.

Also, I am now motivated to finally go beat down Ame-no Murakumo, so that I can go grind for those super stat boosting items.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #782 on: July 02, 2017, 09:28:20 PM »
If it helps with figuring out how much grinding you might expect on Murakumo, I observed over the course of the 450 or so runs I did (to get 10 characters maxed, never mind 12) that the items that are dropped (assuming Brave Level) are always 1 of the 6 "main" stats (HP/ATK/DEF/MAG/MND/SPD) and 1 of MP/TP/SP. They seem to have even distribution otherwise. This appears to be true for all of the main game's bosses. Plus Disk seems to be evenly random about the item distribution, seen two of the same item drop too. Haven't seen a single item for SP drop though, Plus Disk bosses might not drop any.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #783 on: July 04, 2017, 08:19:43 AM »
Don't know if it's a bug or intentional, but Shou's Rage Counter does get removed by Shredder. I've only had it used on her once (Vs. Futo) but it removed the counter completely.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #784 on: July 04, 2017, 08:25:06 AM »
Don't know if it's a bug or intentional, but Shou's Rage Counter does get removed by Shredder. I've only had it used on her once (Vs. Futo) but it removed the counter completely.

I don't think that Shou's Rage Counter is immune to that in the first place, as it doesn't say that it is. In fact, I think that the only counter skill that does imply that it's immune to stuff like that is Marisa's Hakkero Charge Mode...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #785 on: July 04, 2017, 09:00:47 PM »
I forgot who was talking about what party members to build, and I have a GREAT suggestion. Build Hina. She's just crazy vs enemies that are weak to dark, and especially strong against bosses who can have their mind debuffs aka she does great with kogasa. She can actually one hit the final boss in the desert area.

Proof -> https://youtu.be/WtBz-TBAEHY
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:03:16 PM by LazorPagoda »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #786 on: July 04, 2017, 11:50:46 PM »
Yeah Hina can do lots of damage - but at the same time, there are many other good Dark nukes, such as Parsee. Personally, I prefer to build Hina as a tank, since she has surprisingly good bulk once she's fully buffed and - if you build her defenses - you have less chances of her getting sniped out before she fully debuffed the boss. Also, a tank build makes Hina useful against more than just Dark weak bosses.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #787 on: July 05, 2017, 09:55:47 AM »
Beat Miko on my playthrough and now I'm a bit stumped what to do next. I'm realizing that my current party has a lot of room for improvement, and most of the recorded bosses could be done better. I don't want to continue knowing that I want to restart, but I don't want to restart and do all that grinding again...I guess I could overlevel for Murakumo, but man, 450+ runs...that was about 30 hours of doing nothing but beating Murakumo. I think I might just wait for the game to be updated or something before doing anything.

Anyway, looking over my current party composition of

Sanae / Eiki / Maribel / Miko
Kogasa / Aya / Eirin / Reisen
Iku / Tenshi / Keine / Momiji

Iku and Tenshi are the core part of the team so they're obviously keepers. They're great characters too, no complaints there. Preferentially, Tenshi is the attacker and Iku is the support, they're well suited for the roles and it fits their characters perfectly too. Tenshi is already an extremely strong attacker with just Girl of Bhava-agra, her Awakening is going to make her ridiculous. Up to 30% more ATK (and all her other stats) from Keystones of Spirit as well as up to 34% (factoring buff decay with Strategist) more ATK from Courageous Sword. Combined with Girl of Bhava-agra, Tenshi is working with a 143% ATK boost before factoring actual ATK buffs. Tenshi should be one of the hardest hitting characters in the game when fully setup. Probably still not Nitori or Flandre level, but still the definitive bulky attacker.

Keine is great. I didn't realize on the first few readings of the skill, but her Organized Formation skill that restores 1 MP to characters that switch and are switched applies to any switch performed when she's on the frontline, not just ones by her (which is how every other switching skill works, only the user's switches count). This is really nice to restore MP to a character by switching with Momiji and Aya. Definitely something I want to try to use more. Besides that, she performs the typical buffing/tanking role just fine, good delays on her spells and pretty much the best MT ATK/MAG buff. Usually, Enhancer MT buffs cover healing well enough that I don't miss having a dedicated healer, which is just as well too, as Maribel took a while for her MAG to be sufficient for MT healing.

Momiji's also better than I initially expected. Instant Attack characters go well with Healer and other support subclasses for quickly doing whatever it is they need to do, so there's never really a situation that they're only useful for switching.  Momiji's ability to buff accuracy has also been really handy, as it negates the possibility of a miss against the vast majority of enemies and bosses. I prefer to minimize randomness, so this is a really valuable skill for that purpose.  Besides that, Momiji is by far the tankiest character in the party, far surpassing Iku or Tenshi even for MAG based attacks due to her excellent HP count and reasonably balanced affinities. For DEF attacks I don't think a single character is more durable, Momiji doesn't just have the best DEF growth in the game, she has a fairly good leveling curve to accompany it, ending up with about 25% more DEF than Tenshi does. Her ATK, while not as amazing as her DEF, is also extremely good among the cast members, on par with Eiki (after factoring Majesty giving her a higher buff baseline), and she's the only good PHY attacker in the party, though I don't really like using her to attack because that leaves me without an Instant Attacker in the back. Adding a second Instant Attacker is something I've been considering because of that, probably Mystia. Lastly, she has a racial bonus against Flying enemies, but that isn't useful too often. A free 20% damage bonus on every attack is not small though.

Kogasa's a really strong attacker. Factoring her leveling rate, her ATK is exceptional, and A Rainy Night's Ghost Story and Drizzling Large Raindrops (backed by Warrior subclass) are excellent spell cards to take advantage of it, with TRR further boosting her damage output. But that's not why I picked her. I picked her for, among other things, debuffing MND for Iku. This hasn't been very useful because Reisen does that, although a little worse (40% compared to 42%, and Sheer Force reduces resistance by 33% compared to Intense Vertigo's 20%), Reisen does all of these other things that makes her more useful to have than Kogasa. Everything else about her comes from her Awakening, and I don't really see them being that useful, although they're strong effects. Speedy Formation Change is a great skill for rapidly taking turns to heal with, but that level of healing isn't really necessary. And having her fulfill that role keeps her from debuffing MND, which is why I would want her in the front in the first place. There isn't really a specific need that Kogasa actually fills besides a strong DRK attacker, and that's handled with Eiki and, to a lesser extent, subclasses. Even if that wasn't true, there are other characters that are more useful than her for the party composition.

Aya is one of the best characters in the game, I don't think there's anything to even talk about here.

Eirin's sole purpose was to overheal, and she does that ridiculously well. Fully buffed, at level 230 she's healing 80K when characters have about 25K HP on average. But that level of durability is not really necessary, and I think that every run that I've used her in was slowed down because of it. It was never strictly necessary or even useful to overheal with her. Bulky attackers are bulky enough without the overheal. It was just excessive.  Besides the overheal, she has Astronomical Entombing, which is amazingly strong, the strongest DRK attack in the party composition (even stronger than Kogasa's A Rainy Night's Ghost Story), but runs into the same problem that Kogasa has. That isn't enough of a reason to use her for me.

Reisen's one of the characters I tend to favor because of her independence. She's really easy to buff and keep buffed with Grand Patriot's Elixir, and she does so much all by herself. Besides Lunatic Red Eyes doing solid damage while applying a 40% MND debuff plus TRR and SIL at a high success rate, she's also got a wonderfully damaging MYS attack with Mind Starmine that also applies SHK at a high rate and Discarder for debuffing everything while also doing solid damage (about 75% of what Kogasa can do on average, before applying Final Blow). With her splendid MYS and DRK affinities, she's practically immune to those attacks, so she's pretty useful for the bosses that exclusively use those elements (a decent number of them, really), although she can hardly take a powerful SPI attack even with triple Grand Master Breaker Title (but she can take it). Definitely don't regret picking her over Hina for the debuffing role, Reisen has been indispensable.

Sanae is similarly useful, in that she does a lot of things all by herself. Sanae is very unique in that she's only one of two characters that have both a racial damage boosting skill and an elemental damage boosting skill (Nitori is the other one). Having Youkai Buster and Power of the Living God is an exceptional combination, because of how many youkai bosses exist and many of the party's strong attacks are SPI element (Tenshi's Sword of Hisou for ST, Eiki's Last Judgement for defense piercing, Sanae's Night of Bright Guest Stars for MT, Miko's spell cards, and the spell cards from Murakumo's Blessing, namely Start of Heavenly Demise). This can add up to being 56% more damage just for having Sanae active, and then she's got decent durability and speed, Miracle Fruit and Yasaka's Divine Wind for support, her own spell cards being amazingly strong on Plus Disk enemies and bosses (Moses' Miracle is the party's best CLD attack, a little bit stronger than Kogasa's Drizzling Large Raindrops on average), and her Awakening letting her get in on MP recovery while further strengthening Youkai Buster. Ignoring Tenshi and Iku (since the whole point is to have those two in the party), Sanae is the best character in the party next to Aya, she's just been amazing. The combination of her damage bonuses, support, and durability are wonderful, and she is one of the best MT attackers in the party composition at the same time.

Eiki was picked for Cleansed Crystal Mirror working from the backrow after Awakening, so she hasn't served the purpose that I picked her for yet. But what she has done is be the second best attacker in the party composition, capable of hitting very hard with both ATK and MAG. Factoring in Majesty giving her a maximum ATK buff of 92% instead of 86% (with Strategist) she has slightly more ATK than Momiji, and the same amount of MAG. Cleansed Crystal Mirror gives her good durability as a bulky attacker since % damage reduction is the most effective way to reduce damage from strong attacks, and when she gets ~66% on HP Strong Faith kicks in for an amazing +3 MP regen per turn. Besides that, Rod of Remorse's MP regeneration effect kicks in regardless of what Eiki does so long as an enemy wasn't killed by it, switching and Concentration also activate it. With Keine's Organized Formation and an Instant Attack character, Eiki can rapidly regenerate 6 MP before her next action (+1 from her previous action, +2 from being switched in and out, +3 upon receiving a turn with Strong Faith), so she can spam her expensive spell cards, or quickly recover after depleting her MP (+10 with Concentration). The actual power of her spell cards is also hardly lacking. Although Last Judgement is generally inferior to Tenshi's Sword of Hisou in Plus Disk, the targets it works well on are difficult to damage otherwise, and it's still one of the strongest defense ignoring attacks in the game. Trial of the Ten Kings is yet another powerful DRK spell, being marginally weaker than Kogasa's A Rainy Night's Ghost Story but debuffs all stats while being MT. And Eiki's high ATK/MAG makes her competent at using subclass spell cards like Warrior's Explosive Flame Sword. And while it isn't often helpful, Eiki can apply SIL with any attack, which seems to happen reliably on bosses that have low SIL resistance. While none of this has anything to do with the original purpose I picked Eiki for, using her has helped me understand that it's important to have characters that contribute by being alternative attackers to the Hisouten duo, since sometimes Tenshi needs to tank and Iku's damage output, while good, is not exceptional. Eiki is a great character for this role while also being able to reduce damage for everyone, and not just for herself.

Maribel is a fantastic SHK engine, but I haven't found her particularly useful for anything else besides DRK damage (again. 5 of the characters in the current party composition possess good DRK spells, 6 for Miko post-Awakening), and Guardian's Shield Bash and Reisen's Mind Starmine, although not as effective, are sufficient for consistent SHK applications. While a 100% SHK rate is important for reducing randomness, picking a character solely for that purpose feels very limiting. Though that isn't the sole reason I selected her, but Vision Sharing seems to be really hard to set up actually. First, leading with Maribel is necessary to rapidly get her buffs up. Then you'd have to drag her to the back for (probably) the attacker to buff up. Under ideal circumstances, this would only cost a turn from everyone, but even that seems like too much compared to setting up an attacker from the get-go. The alternative is to have Maribel out in the frontline, but her only roles in the front are to heal or attack. Maribel is too dependent on Grand Incantation to perform good damage, so she isn't that great of an attacker, and healing is not something that needs to be done every turn. Having Keine, Sanae, or Miko out would be preferable, there's just no room to justify Maribel.

I haven't actually used Miko yet, but she looks to fill a very similar role to Eiki as described above. Prince Shotoku's OoPArt is ridiculous. With all of her other offensive and defensive bonuses, she is clearly one of the best candidates for a bulky attacker in the party composition, aided by her attacks being SPI element and boosted by Sanae (curious if, post-Awakening, her SPI/DRK composite will benefit from Sanae even if DRK is the targeted affinity, this would be really useful if so). Besides that, she offers another small bonus like Eiki with Prince's Lecture, boosting stat buff increases and magnification. She offers enough offensively that having her out as an alternative attacker seems like a really good idea. She looks like she has potential as a tank as well, but it seems hard to figure out how to use her like that. But she could do nothing and still be useful since Prince's Lecture works in the back and requires zero setup, unlike Maribel's Vision Sharing.

Having gone through all those, the characters I want to see about replacing are Kogasa, Eirin, and Maribel. What I'm currently looking at is

Mystia: A second Instant Attack character so that I have one in the back when Momiji is in the front. Besides that extra degree of versatility, a second Instant Attack character would allow an IA Healer when Momiji is running Warrior or Transcendent, and also give an infinite MP recovery loop with Keine's Organized Formation (though this would run Momiji's buffs down to the ground, but Iku can rapidly buff them up again), giving Momiji effectively infinite MP. Mystia looks like she could be potentially more useful than Chen besides having IA, having an actually good PSN attack and a devastating WND attack that applies SIL with the best rate in the game.

Satori: One of the things that I've learned is that passively stacking damage is worth a slot in itself. Satori adds 24% damage with Trauma Recollection for targeting weakness, which is the general idea for any boss fight. She can also copy Thundercloud Stickleback from Iku to double up on that (but she can't double up on Aya's Divine Grandson's Advent because she sets the timebar to 0 with it, which is really silly) to rapidly buff a damage dealer's ATK/MAG. Although I already thought about Satori before and decided against her, I noticed a few setups while playing through that, in retrospect, could have been improved only by Satori's presence. For example, with Grandgon, I had a 2-shot setup with Eiki that did 1.7m damage with all buffs active (line-up was Iku/Sanae/Eiki/Aya). If I had Satori, it would have been 2.1m, enough to turn that 2-shot into a 1-shot. There are other things that could have been improved by having Satori around to double up on spell cards while buffing weak point damage too. 24% is a lot of damage, between racial bonuses and specific element bonuses, while being much more versatile than either of the two, and Satori herself can be a competent buffer thanks to all the other buffing characters present in the party. If nothing else, she could just go Strategist or Herbalist and contribute more than most other characters with that 24% damage bonus.

Rumia: Gives a 20% damage bonus to humans, which are common bosses, and has some status support stuff post-Awakening, plus a good MT heal. Somewhat similar situation to Maribel in that she can heal, attack, and support at the same time, but Rumia looks to do all of that better than Maribel does since she requires no extra setup to use. Not really as useful as the above two characters though.

Yuyuko: Besides the obvious DTH stuff she has going for her, she gives a 20% damage bonus to ghosts, which are common bosses, and she's a fairly durable character so she's easy to leave out in the front as a tank, or use as an attacker.

Probably going to go with Mystia, Satori, and Yuyuko, but there's hardly any rush to try out the next revisions. Would be a waste to want to restart again after finding another area that needs improving on.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #788 on: July 05, 2017, 11:20:48 AM »
 I would say that one of the reasons you're not finding Eirin very useful is probably because your party focuses more on bulky attackers, while Eirin's overheal benefits those as well, I feel that it helps frail characters much more since it makes them easier to switch in and then helps them stay in as well.

 Momiji's accuracy buff helps a lot with using Explosive Flame Sword since it has pretty bad accuracy. It's worth noting that after awakening she can buff her DEF and MND by 24% on switch so if you have 2 instant attackers she'll pretty much always be fully buffed for defenses and partially for SPD; she can also get a 24% ATK buff + 7% all stats buff on attack (so fully buffed ATK and SPD and a little bit of DEF and MND). With Eyes that Perceive Reality, it makes her very reliable both as a tank or as an attacker.

 I would say Satori is usually easier to use as an HP sponge tank that focuses on her ability to increase weakness damage, maybe with Elementalist to further increase your attackers' damage while granting her more elemental resistances, low delay moves also help her because she's very slow; she also requires pretty much no buffing since her defenses and SPD are low enough it doesn't really matter too much. She can also be used as an attacker but she usually requires significant investment which you could use to better effect on your other characters (there are only a handful spells Satori uses better than their original owners). I believe with some MP boosting gems/tomes and items her Small MP Recovery with an Instant Attacker pretty much means she gets infinite MP.

 Any status user synergises well with Reisen, but I would say Yuuko seems a bit redundant offensively since you already have plenty of SPI and DRK attackers, she's still useful for her ability to protect you from DTH, clearing trash and her extra damage on Ghosts though.

 I haven't used any of the Plus Disc characters yet but I would say Mamizou (can abuse any weakness), Tokiko (has passives that helps keep buffs and lessen debuffs for allies and viceversa for enemies, can also increase the effects of status ailments) and Akyuu (weak stats wise but has some very unique spellcard effects, I'm also wondering if Knowledge of Gensokyo Chronicles stacks with Trauma Recollection...) show some promise.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 11:22:43 AM by Libra »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #789 on: July 05, 2017, 12:41:18 PM »
I'd just keep the save and revise the party without outright restarting, especially if you spent 30 hours grinding Murakamo. There'll be huge amounts of corridor and other postgame to do later once it's added in, so I wouldn't say it's a big deal that you could have done the first half or so (?) of plus-disk better.

TBH Yuyuko's damage is lower than you'd think it would be, because her of slow leveling/expensive library and especially due to her lack of any offensively helpful passives. I was really disappointed when I tried to use her; great in randoms, but was consistently meh on every boss. On the other hand, in Plus Disk you don't have the problem of all the bosses being really high def/mnd, so I guess that would help, but the only thing she really brings to the table is the Ghost damage bonus and DTH; there's a lot of bulky attackers and she's not going to be doing amazing damage herself compared to them. The bonus ghost damage for the rest of the party sn't half bad in Plus though, I'll admit.

If you've already awakened Maribel (as you talked about Vision Sharing) then maxing her passive for Liberated Abilities should make it a pretty solid damage spell versus everything, which isn't half bad. A 328% MAG alltarget that's resisted by almost nothing... it's even all-target! Granted, that part is more exciting for randoms than it tends to be for bosses. I'm not sure why Vision Sharing would be so hard either; getting it up ASAP might be a hassle I guess (but she possesses a powerful all-buff already, so..) but throughout the duration of a prolonged bossfight it should be pretty easy to get done before toooo long, shouldn't it? Not to mention she's your only MT healing in this party, which I imagine must be kinda critical sooner or later. Her main strength is being able to do all these different things at once in the same build, even if she doesn't excel too hard in any one category; MT healing, strong irresistable all-target damage, statuses, passive support even when in the backline. All things that aren't super-stellar, but good enough combined to add up into a useful character.

As for Kogasa's awakening, it really shines if you use Speedy Formation Change with multiple instant attackers to chaingun out attacks one after the other whilst healing at the same time; this synergizes with you having Keine in your party to allow you to chain turns longer without burning all the MP out. It can even possibly work for Chen if you make sure Chen can get in 2 attacks before swapout (although chen's pathetic ability to get through defense worries me; perhaps with enough tweaking to her base ATK? It helps that this setup allows you to end with Phoenix Spread Wings and still swap Chen out at no penalty. If massive MP burn is a problem, sub hexer). It also will shine in future updates when the
Spoiler:
Dragon God
subclass is added to the game, granting Healer's healing passive plus a 4% buff to all stats for the whole frontline with each turn taken, ontop of huge element affinity bonuses. She's not half-bad offensively by any means but unless TRR is out she doesn't exactly shine either, and others can debuff MND just fine (nor is it as important postgame), even if she really does have the most reliable and powerful MND debuff in the game- it's hard to justify a party slot on offensive Kogasa without big time TRR hitters like Kasen (or in the reverse line of thinking, Parsee)

If you're not interested in heavyswap kogasa or TRR synergy kogasa then you'd probably want to use someone else.

Satori is a character I want to like, but I feel like unless you do a heavily gimmicky build she just doesn't pull through. She's really frail (this is a -problem-), has no innate power to maintain survivability, has few cases of being able to launch off attacks strong enough to justify her fragility, and is real questionable to run as a tanky support due to reliance on copied skills. She can get a massive HP pool if built as tanky support (good!), but cannot self-sustain at all like other potential HP tanks (bad)- Komachi/Mokou/awaken-Minoriko. Instead she requires heal babysitting, and MT heals won't work well on her. She boosts damage, but ONLY for people who can hit the boss's weakness; all your other attackers will gain no benefit from her presence past application of general atk/mag buffs many others can provide. On the other hand, her gimmick builds have potentially devastating potential, and if you do employ enough support to keep her alive (Swappy Kogasa?) then her big HP pool -will- keep her running.

As you're already somewhat far in Plus, and a big portion of your motivation for running Satori is weakness damage boost, you might consider going a different direction and looking at Akyuu- but even with support she can't exactly stay out all the time, which Satori can manage with healing. Still, Akyuu's durability isn't as bad as it looks; with base stat increases (granted, she'd really need them), her megacheap library can be a pretty good influence, and she can megaresurrect through a few things per boss fight, so as long as she isn't kicking the bucket -too- regularly she'll be fine. Unless you want her unique support skills you'd probably rather get your weakness damage off Satori though. Kokoro theoretically will boost frontline damage too in the right emotions, but it's debatable if boosting base atk/mag over end damage would make her ~10% comparable to Akyuu's 16% (much less satori's 24%) and she brings the least support to the table.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #790 on: July 05, 2017, 10:35:50 PM »
I'd just keep the save and revise the party without outright restarting, especially if you spent 30 hours grinding Murakamo. There'll be huge amounts of corridor and other postgame to do later once it's added in, so I wouldn't say it's a big deal that you could have done the first half or so (?) of plus-disk better.

You know, yeah, you're right. It's not just the plus disk that bothers me, but also all of the main game's postgame, but when I think about how much I've already done, going back to it just to fix that stuff when I haven't even reached anything particularly interesting just seems like a really dumb idea. My goal has been to do all of this with one party, but it should be fine to have used everything up until now just as a way to learn how to play the game. I could redo the two Murakumo fights (ordinary and Avatar) without restarting the playthrough by making an alternate save,  leveling down, doing library resets, and only using equipment available at that time, then going back to the original save file, focus on actually getting through the game and reaching the interesting parts like the Infinite Corridor and Yamata no Orochi. I'd still like to do over Grandgon to make a video of one-shotting it, but that's just not worthwhile. So I won't do that. I think I'll start making alternate saves for every boss that I would want to record so I could mess around with revisiting it with different strategies without ever losing any real progress, so as to avoid a scenario where I want to restart the entire playthrough.

So that aside, character comments (both yours and Libra's)

Eirin: Yeah, when I picked her I had expected that a bulky attacker, while capable of withstanding hits, would still benefit a lot from being overhealed, but their durability is such that it isn't really worth taking advantage of. Boosting their damage output is more important than boosting their durability. Eirin does seem better suited for frail attackers, but I don't really like the prospect of building for that style unless the boss(es) can be safely annihilated in a quick time frame, which Eirin is redundant for. Besides which, neither Tenshi or Iku are well suited for the concept.

Momiji: Her Awakening skill is another reason I want to use another Instant Attack character, being able to freely sustain her DEF/MND buff all by herself is an amazing tool to have. For bosses that only target DEF, Momiji should be able to max out her DEF and negate all but the most powerful attacks like that. Against Flying bosses where Momiji can't personally attack effectively, this should allow her to perform a Strategist/Herbalist/Elementalist role while not requiring healing. By itself, this isn't particularly useful, but it's just one more strategy that Momiji can use.

Satori: Her durability is one thing that I have some concerns with. From my calculations, surviving large attacks like Avatar Murakumo's Ama no Murakumo's Wild Dance, Shadow Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps, or Shadow Mokou's Fujiyama Volcano is best done by stacking HP and affinity (as an aside, I referred to Iku as being potentially only exceeded by Komachi in . With a setup like 3x Grand Master Breaker Title, the difference between a 0% DEF buff and a 100% DEF buff amounts to about ~10% damage reduction on average for these attacks, at least for the more durable characters (I didn't think to check, for example, Reisen, because she has no business withstanding these attacks). But Satori has much lower defenses than any character I checked, and her leveling rate makes that high HP count look a little unlikely to compensate for it. Her affinities also look to be fairly average. So her durability is not really something I would be confident in assuming. Her offensive prowess also looks to be pretty much nil in the party composition I'm running, as most of the offensive spell cards run off characters with excellent ATK/MAG scores or good personal skills, so that leaves her in a pure support role. I would be fine using her strictly as an Herbalist or an Elementalist without even touching copied spell cards just to have that 24% damage boost, but if her frailty is a problem, then she just can't be used for that purpose.

Yuyuko: There are a lot of boss fights against multiple targets where at least one of them is DTH susceptible, which is what I was thinking of with Yuyuko. But thinking more about it, those will only become less common as the game goes on (I certainly can't imagine any will exist at all in the Infinite Corridor), and of the ones that I've already done, those DTH susceptible bosses could be wiped out before they could act (even Shadow Team ⑨, I was able to devise a strategy that defeated all of them except Wriggle before any enemy actions occurred, Wriggle is the only one that cannot be DTH'd at all). Although some, like Shadow Yuuka, are actually durable opponents, using DTH on them is...not really interesting. And without DTH, Yuyuko offers average damage output on redundant elements, whereas Youmu offers the same 20% damage bonus to Ghosts while covering the PHY element that my party composition is sorely lacking in. Although Momiji is competent at applying PHY damage, having a second PHY attacker might be a good idea. But mostly, Youmu would offer more than Yuyuko when it comes down to their spell cards, the only thing is that Youmu's MP costs are ridiculous (considering her max MP is so low) for the damage she inflicts.

Maribel: I haven't done any Infinite Corridor yet (my first pick for Awakening would be Tenshi anyway!), but I did examine how to most rapidly buff her while using her against Miko (Maribel's damage output was quite poor without a high MAG buff even with Grand Incantation, Miko appears to have high defensive stats) and extrapolated from that. The problem isn't so much ease of doing it as it is how much is gained from doing it instead of immediately attacking. First, Aya would have to skip her turn or give one to Maribel, then Maribel would need to be switched out after using Overflowing Unnatural Power. If Maribel is an Enhancer, she gets an 83% buff to all stats, which is a 10% buff to the frontline, at the cost of three character actions. It would lead to better results to just start attacking immediately, spending those turns buffing the primary attacker would lead to better results. Liberated Abilities is very strong post-Awakening (about 15% stronger than Tenshi's Violent Motherland, based on current stats), but the party is full of powerful MT attacks of varying elements that can strike weaknesses, which I find to be generally more important than not being resisted (at least for weak enemies, ideally the durable ones are having their weakness targeted). And for MT healing, Enhancer Keine actually does that just fine. So far, the strongest MT attacks in the game generally take out about 50% HP off characters specifically built to take hits, so Keine heals them up quickly while also buffing at the same time. Momiji and Sanae can act as backup for when this isn't enough. The only time I've actually found Mari's DIY Novice Barrier to be a priority to use was when using Maribel to attack with in the first place. While she's an extremely versatile and strong character, she doesn't do anything that makes me think of her as the character to use in a particular situation.

Kogasa: Yeah, she has a lot of cool things going for her, but they're not what I'm looking for in the character slot. She's a great switching character, but her support ability, even with the spoiler subclass, is not that high. The level of healing she provides is not really necessary (although it makes her very self-sufficient), and the buffs are small even when they add up. I generally prefer to have two characters in the tank/support role that alternate switching and using spells as appropriate for their timebars, Kogasa can't fit that role. While I do occasionally have Tenshi play a dedicated switching role, it's usually because her level of durability is necessary or because Iku is playing a bulky attacker role and needs Hisouten Guard to do that effectively. Neither of which is applicable to Kogasa, who is not very durable outside of CLD and DRK attacks (barring TRR'd targets) and doesn't do the "bulky" aspect of a bulky attacker role very well because of her affinities.

Akyuu: I think I need to seriously consider her, even though she gives a 16% weakness damage boost compared to Satori's 24%, her post-Awakening Miare's Great Knowledge grants a 50% damage boost compared to Herb of Awakening's 36% damage boost, and according to the JP wiki, it's a 6000 delay (but the EN wiki says 4000, which is correct?). Those two things combined make Akyuu capable of adding a bit more damage than Satori could (Satori + Herb of Awakening is a 68% damage boost, Akyuu + Great Knowledge is a 74% damage boost). Although it's very expensive at 11 MP, Akyuu has by far the best MP (she'd have about 60 MP by the time she's recruited, with MP Boost and MP Gems maxed), so she can afford it quite easily. And it applies to every character, great for working with two attackers. A 90% activation rate on Power of the Child of Miare is enough for me to consider it reliable, she might even be able to go max SPD in situations where she cannot survive attacks anyway, and aim to beat the boss before she runs out of TP. Looking at her more thoroughly, I get the impression that she would actually be preferable to Satori, as she offers improved ways to use the same strategies I'd use with Satori while also adding her own things. Her damage output with Super Incantation looks to have some potential as well.

Kokoro: Yeah, I don't think she's any good for support. Miko's Prince's Lecture amounts to an 8% boost to Tenshi's damage output (assuming an 86% ATK buff) when on the frontline, along with buffing all the other stats too, I'd rather use her for that kind of purpose than Kokoro. Kokoro's 10% ATK boost is about equivalent to 11% more damage for Tenshi under the same circumstances.

Taking in all of that input, I think going Mystia, Youmu, and Akyuu might be better for character changes. Youmu comes off as the weakest of the three picks, but judging from the current Infinite Corridor bosses, every single Touhou boss that shows up there is going to be a Ghost, so that's a 20% damage boost to each of them just for having Youmu out. That's going to be useful at least some of the time, probably the best racial bonus overall. And she adds another PHY attacker, although her spell card costs are...really prohibitive. The racial bonus is clearly the best reason to use her that I see, so maybe using Rumia instead would be better. Although she has fewer compatible targets for her racial bonus, she has more versatility in her personal skills, although for the most part they're a bit redundant (Demarcation for MT healing and Moonlight Ray applying all status effects post-Awakening look promising, though). Those are the main two I'm considering for the third open character slot, anyway.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 10:38:51 PM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #791 on: July 06, 2017, 01:17:16 AM »
Kogasa still has her bugged 32 mp regen, right? Well, you could load her up with strong and expensive subclass skills for nuking potential, that free bonus damage to TRR is nice, and it should be really easy to land TRR with Kogasa AND Reisen.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #792 on: July 06, 2017, 03:48:53 AM »
I don't really think that's worthwhile (at least for my party composition), TRR backed Kogasa only has 14% more ATK than Tenshi does (not counting their Awakening skills) while being considerably more frail. It's 31% post-Awakening, but she's removing TRR with 20% of her attacks and has half of Tenshi's ATK when not working with TRR, and she still won't be able to withstand many attacks, while Tenshi becomes an even better bulky attacker than she already is with a roughly 50% boost to her HP. MP regen is no big deal since there's a few ways to replenish MP, and subclass spells that scale off ATK have low costs (currently, anyway). The main advantage she has with the MP regen is being able to ignore World Devouring Calamity, which...honestly isn't that common, certainly not worth the party slot for.

Though it's undeniable that the damage bonuses on Kogasa against TRR'd opponents are tremendous, they aren't really something I see as something as a goal to make use of. There are a lot of other fantastic damage dealers that are more consistent, some more frail, some less so. Would rather use Flandre, Nitori, or Yuugi instead if the goal was solely damage, for example.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #793 on: July 06, 2017, 08:44:20 AM »
Personally, if you're concerned with the Endless Corridor, I think including some of the "reward boosting" characters (such as Rinnosuke, Nitori, Shou, Nazrin, and Komachi) is a necessity in the long run - I've grinded TH1 for dozens of hours, and I know for a fact that, if such a char existed in TH1, I'd include it in my team no matter what.

OFC including all 5 is not that good because most of them are not even that powerful, and you need not to hamstring your efficiency in clearing corridors. Personally, I think I'll include at least Nitori (by far the most powerful of them, offense-wise) and Shou (Radiant Treasure Gun's bonuses are too big to ignore). But I'm also considering Rinnosuke, given his massive stats and item/money drop boosts.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #794 on: July 06, 2017, 11:01:41 AM »
I haven't really put a lot of thought into that stuff yet tbh, it's not something I can really gauge well, weighing combat performance and the ability to grind more easily. The Infinite Corridor drops don't seem that important compared to accumulating lots of Seven Star Dust to trade-in for items. But in order to acquire the best gear like Machine God Lucifer, you need to be able to beat the boss(es) on the way through in order to accumulate enough to get the items. But there's also a guaranteed Infinite Jewel if you get all of the items on a floor too, and the quality of them, while not MGL tier (I assume), is surely high. It might just be better to focus on exploring? It's certainly an alternative, one that I was more inclined to attempt. If it turns out that grinding is really important, then maybe I'll just use some characters subclassed as an Appraiser.

I think I will go with Rumia for the 12th party slot, I thought about it and figured that with Keine's Impervious Formation Change, she can basically turn anyone into an Instant Attacker, so I should look at what each character offers with that kind of perspective. Any character with a MT heal would be able to do what Healer Momiji does to a much greater effect (freeing Momiji and Mystia up to be things like Herbalist, Elementalist, or attackers), and of those characters, I figure Rumia is the most useful to have. Besides that purpose, she can apply all status and debuffs post-Awakening and has the Human racial damage bonus, plus really strong MYS damage, something that Iku is competent at, but not especially so.

Though, actually, looking at it like that, maybe Maribel would be better after all, but I don't like the prospect of being in a situation where Mari's DIY Novice Barrier is necessary to use, but Akyuu's 50% Boost is in play, since Maribel would override the stronger boost with her weaker one. This would be applicable to Eiki's 150% Boost from her Awakening skill as well, should it come in handy (and it likely would), and Akyuu's Super Incantation too. Rather not deal with that possibility.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #795 on: July 06, 2017, 12:57:10 PM »
I haven't really put a lot of thought into that stuff yet tbh, it's not something I can really gauge well, weighing combat performance and the ability to grind more easily. The Infinite Corridor drops don't seem that important compared to accumulating lots of Seven Star Dust to trade-in for items. But in order to acquire the best gear like Machine God Lucifer, you need to be able to beat the boss(es) on the way through in order to accumulate enough to get the items. But there's also a guaranteed Infinite Jewel if you get all of the items on a floor too, and the quality of them, while not MGL tier (I assume), is surely high. It might just be better to focus on exploring? It's certainly an alternative, one that I was more inclined to attempt. If it turns out that grinding is really important, then maybe I'll just use some characters subclassed as an Appraiser.

I do agree that item drops are prolly unimportant - especially since, unlike in TH1, the sell price stays the same regardless of how many item you got. Gold and exp bonuses, on the other hand, still seem really valuable to me. This makes Shou in particular very interesting - once awakened, Shou's xp and gold bonus droprates are 3 and 7 times what you'd get from an Appraiser, respectively. And this doesn't even count the bonus you get from finishing off foes with Radiant Treasure Gun. Rinnosuke is also quite important - it has the same kind of boost as Komachi, but with comparably higher stats. Plus, its presence on the front line increases Shou's damage output as well.

At the same time, what you told me makes me wonder: do multiple Appraiser bonuses stack up? If so, it may become rly complicated to figure out just how many Appraisers you should run to find the right balance between clearing capability and maximum rewards - I imagine you should prolly start with next to no Appraisers, then swap them over time as your level advantage increases. It would be nice if, at least with xp and gold rewards, somebody could test whether multiple appraisers stack up or not.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #796 on: July 06, 2017, 02:03:15 PM »
I'm sure appraiser stacks, if only because the bonus is so low that you'd need to run like a party full of them to get any appreciable difference. It should be easy to tell because as far as I recall, all the % increase on reward passives just add directly onto the displayed win bonus %s at the end. This also makes those 3% end of battle bonuses wimpier; once your battle chain goes up, you're getting 153% gold instead of 150%. So it's even less than 3%, and it's probably only 1% if they're in back.

The 10% increases on kill ontop of that makes it enough to consider using when you have a big level advantage, though. The main problem at that point becomes, jeez, what a pain to swap a bunch of party members to appraisers and then swap them all back to normal classes after. On 20f grind you're likely getting the killing hit in with the same member a lot (flan, nitori, kaguya) and can get high benefit off swapping just two or three people, but on infinite corridor stampeding you don't have that luxury as much.

In terms of bringing people for grind... Nitori and Nazrin are mostly just for item drops. Nazrin has bonuses for gold/exp too, but since it's only for her landing the killing hit, in the long run it's not gonna be a significant difference enough to care unless you're just grindspotting one floor like 20F and have enough overlevels to spam killing blows with double exp. Nitori's also likely one of the last awakenings you'd grab for your party of 12, because it's really weak other than item drop boost, unless you're using most of her team synergy members (to be fair, they're pretty strong members to use). Rinnosuke/Shou is a potent combo, on the other hand. I probably wouldn't keep using Rinno deep into Plus unless you're running Shou, but he makes her pretty solid. Komachi I probably wouldn't use late plus at all TBH; once you can put 200+ levelup bonuses into HP, the other characters with high regen just plain become better regen tanks than Komachi, IMO; especially in super-postgame considering Minoriko and Mokou's awakenings are way more useful than Komachi's. She's still kinda viable offensively if you really like her or really like HP sponge attackers, I suppose; hp+regen would still be nice and her counter helps make up for lower damage, Avici I think gets pretty usable post-awakening. ("It's only 80% attack though!" Yeah, but Avici has a really high multiplier assuming it still works like that, so it's like 160% attack ontop of 400% mag without any increase in the def/mnd the attack goes through, ontop of stauses it gives her a pretty good alltarget.)

...uh, I kinda went off on a tangent there. Nazrin/Nitori are still potentially solid party members without their farming bonuses, in any case. Nazrin's awakening is really solid and she has good synergies with Byakuren/Shou, Nitori is ridiculous as usual, etc. S'just, especially if item drops are less important, Shou/Rinno is probably the only combo I'd say to consider putting in just for farming bonuses.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #797 on: July 06, 2017, 02:40:20 PM »
I kinda agree with your analysis Serela, though I definitely could use more feedback about the Endless Corridor - for example, are bosses harder or easier than randoms, comparatively? And if so, how much?

With these answers set in stone it would be easier to guess which chars to use for reward boosting. But at a first glance I'd say you're right: I would probably begin with Shou and Rinnosuke and, as the level advantage keeps increasing, converting one or more chars to Appraiser class as needed.

My only worry with this strategy would be whether Rinnosuke is usable without one of the three "uber" subclasses, since I do plan to assign them to other characters. Maybe Rinno could work as an Archmage, for clearing floors?

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #798 on: July 06, 2017, 04:08:05 PM »
Using Rinnosuke offensively is highly dubious, imo; even after high boost his atk/mag are only just enough and he lacks a single offensive passive. On the flipside, in postgame you get enough skillpoints to make him -very- bulky even when built offensively, so I guess it wouldn't be soooo bad for randoms. Still, the MP cost on archmage's alltargets is intense. Swordmaster is a little better but the NTR move is kinda weak and Iai Slash may as well not exist, so I guess Swordmaster and Archmage both have their ups and downsides.

You'd probably just want to build him as a supportive tank though, because bosses exist. His switching is outranked by Keine but it's still pretty good, and once you can afford to max high boosts for atk/mag, First Aid is actually a decent-ish heal I think? Post-awakening his skillset actually becomes competent support, and you can either sub enchanter to make the buff/heal mix better or Magician to spam the heck out of his low-cost low-delay kit whilst enjoying it's newfound strength. Battle Command doling out 33% all-buffs combined with it's low delay and Magician's regen will let him keep characters topped off easily, with First Aid on the side for healing, actually sounds... useful. It's not all that bad before awakening either, s'just his buffing power caps at 18%, which is a bit low, and first aid won't buff at all, so you'd probably sub healer or pharmacologist.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 04:12:27 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #799 on: July 06, 2017, 05:57:16 PM »
At the same time, what you told me makes me wonder: do multiple Appraiser bonuses stack up?

I'm sure appraiser stacks, if only because the bonus is so low that you'd need to run like a party full of them to get any appreciable difference. It should be easy to tell because as far as I recall, all the % increase on reward passives just add directly onto the displayed win bonus %s at the end.

Checked in-game with 4 Appraisers in the frontline, Appraiser does not stack with other Appraisers.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #800 on: July 06, 2017, 06:53:43 PM »
Huh, well at least there's no worry about making a buttload of them then. Although only one means the bonuses are so small there's hardly even a point in having it.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #801 on: July 06, 2017, 11:54:21 PM »
You'd probably just want to build him as a supportive tank though, because bosses exist. His switching is outranked by Keine but it's still pretty good, and once you can afford to max high boosts for atk/mag, First Aid is actually a decent-ish heal I think? Post-awakening his skillset actually becomes competent support, and you can either sub enchanter to make the buff/heal mix better or Magician to spam the heck out of his low-cost low-delay kit whilst enjoying it's newfound strength. Battle Command doling out 33% all-buffs combined with it's low delay and Magician's regen will let him keep characters topped off easily, with First Aid on the side for healing, actually sounds... useful. It's not all that bad before awakening either, s'just his buffing power caps at 18%, which is a bit low, and first aid won't buff at all, so you'd probably sub healer or pharmacologist.

 Actually, Murakumo's Former Owner only works with healing spells so it doesn't affect Battle Command (still 18%), not sure if the heal from Heart of Prayers may apply it though.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #802 on: July 07, 2017, 12:12:23 AM »
Curse you, vague descriptions!
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #803 on: July 07, 2017, 02:34:32 PM »
Curse you, vague descriptions!

Evil descriptions are evil.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #804 on: July 07, 2017, 03:51:39 PM »
Speaking of descriptions, Yuuka's tormenting nature (deal more damage the lower hp they are) doesn't work the way described. It actually works in the opposite way, dealing more damage the healthier they are. However it doesn't work at all if the enemy is full hp.

Tests against the foe on second floor to get a bloated hp pool (hp %'s are estimated). All use flower shot with no buffs on Yuuka, as well as no subclass skills, debuffs, nor damage boosts from other skills.

100%: 7735
99%: 11977
75%: 11439
50%: 10353
10%: 8547

Tried each a couple of times, especially the 10% and 99% cases to make sure the range was big enough to discredit randomness, so I'm pretty confident that it is working in a fashion that was not intended.

Edit: Suika has the same problem too with her skill Free-Spirited Oni.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 07:11:22 PM by Epirlin »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #805 on: July 08, 2017, 03:48:08 AM »
Wierd. Well, it would matter more if I used either, but I don't usually run them so eh. Still, I wish they could properly descriptionize these things.

RegalStar

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #806 on: July 08, 2017, 04:17:31 AM »
At the same time, what you told me makes me wonder: do multiple Appraiser bonuses stack up?

They do stack. Apparently there's a bug involved with them that cause the display to act as if only one instance is in effect, but actually all of them are.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #807 on: July 08, 2017, 04:47:27 AM »
This is a pretty amazing doujin game, best one I've seen imo, but gosh, why are there so many weird bugs.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #808 on: July 08, 2017, 05:39:19 AM »
To be fair, he probably doesn't even know about a lot of these, which leads to them going unfixed. The plus disk release fixed about all the non-insignificant bugs that were known at the time, AFAIK. (Granted, it introduced a bunch of new ones, of which maybe half or so were fixed.) There's something to be said for testing, but with such a massive array of abilities across the cast, errors are bound to come up. The main problem is probably just that many of the errors go unnoticed for too long. (Although there's still some things like Futo's plate count going down from being healed or buffed, hopefully to be fixed in the theroetically still upcoming major patch.)
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Flandre event not found [SOLVED]
« Reply #809 on: July 09, 2017, 05:45:52 PM »
Edit: Nevermind I solved it!

I tried recruiting Flandre Scarlet by following the events on floor 10, 11 and 12 as explained on the wikipedia page: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Characters_5#Flandre_Scarlet

I already have both Mokou and Kaguya recruited but I can't find the event with the crater on floor 10. I might have already found it but forgotten about it (since I started playing this a year ago). So I went to floor 11 as told, but there was no event. Floor 12, no event either. I passed the rock requiring 60 achievements, but no Flandre there either.

I've included screenshots of the maps of floor 10, 11 and 12. I know that a red "!" would indicate an event, but the only ones I see are from spawn points, color orbs or rocks. I've spent a few hours searching for a solutuin already but haven't found any yet.
I'm out of ideas now, so please help me find Flandre

Floor 10: https://i.imgur.com/fv5rynj.png
Floor 11: https://i.imgur.com/mYxeh3S.png
Floor 12: https://i.imgur.com/lFo6ULB.png
No Flandre: https://i.imgur.com/HF2sl6Y.png

Edit: It turned out I had already done the events on floor 10 and 11, so I was missing the event on the south-eastern part of floor 12. I missed it while searching around floor 12, and I thought the red "!" was a spawn point instead. Well I found it now thanks to a playthrough on Youtube.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 08:37:27 PM by Makkiftw »