Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F  (Read 188659 times)

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #750 on: June 22, 2017, 03:53:12 AM »
Tested with Suwako's Froggy Power! and the 7f Daphnids that use Slack Off. Without Suwako, Slack Off healed 731. With Suwako, Slack Off healed 1K. It seems that this is exactly the case.

So not only does your healing get nerfed by the elemental damage reducing skills, you buff your enemy heals with the elemental damage increasing skills. Geez!

If things are acting in that way, maybe the elemental damage boosting spells work by increasing the "damage" that enemies take, regardless of whether it's a heal or a damaging blow? Part of me thinks that the dev could fix that by having it check if the damage is positive or negative, so that it only applies if it's not a healing spell. That way, it won't mess with those formulas.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #751 on: June 22, 2017, 06:09:37 AM »
Yeah, that's what it looks like from a programming standpoint. The bugfix looks like an easy solution too, so it won't necessarily be a problem that will be stuck in the game after being pointed out. I'd like to submit a bug report but I didn't find a section on the game's page or the JP wiki for where bug reports should be filed. Writing it out wouldn't be a problem for me (well, not as much as someone who doesn't know a lick of Japanese), I just don't know where to submit it.

The JP wiki doesn't seem to list this bug either, unless it's been reported in the comments. The comments are too difficult for me to read thoroughly.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #752 on: June 22, 2017, 03:19:08 PM »
It actually also works with gatekeeper's nap (Meiling), fighting spirit (multiple people) and Mononobe's plates. Mononobe also has a harder time as it also removes one of her plates, which was the only reason why I think she was so hard to actually fit her into the team I was using. Meiling's increased healing at least makes the problem go away for her (brings it up to about 110% instead of 68%).

The problem is surprisingly prevalent in a lot of characters as any damage reducing passive is also a healing reducing passive. Transcendent and strategist sub-classes should also be reducing healing as well.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #753 on: June 23, 2017, 06:52:52 AM »
Oh wow, you're right. With a Strategist, Aya, and Transcendent target, Yasaka's Divine Wind was healing half as much as it should have (cumulative total is either 50% or 56%, depending on if % damage reduction is additive or multiplicative), from 24K to 12K. That's just...what. So any kind of % damage reduction impacts healing as well. Man, if I had Eiki active as well (or Awakened) it'd be down to 40%-51%. It seems like such a basic thing to get right, too.

--

On a totally different subject, I finished the main disc with the Hisouten duo oriented party and recorded all of the major post-game bosses (except Aria-Singing Toruasutory, I messed up recording that). Run was done at brave level using Iku as the average and library levels at 1.2x the level of the lowest leveled character (Tenshi for now, Miko when I get her). Instead of posting about the run regularly, I thought it'd be better to finish everything and post about it once. Playlist link is https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbKPr8l6tlmCV1p0_paXnxPWDa0wzrJ9t. Currently working on Plus Disk content now.

Tenshi turned out to be a much stronger character than I expected in terms of offensive strength. Girl of Bhava-agra and Attack Boost puts her ATK stat as one of the best in the game (with 187 library level, 10 ATK Orbs, Attack Boost, Transcendent + Body Reinforcement, and Genji Gloves/Nodachi "Kotetsu"/Quartz Charm, level 156 Tenshi has 30371 * 1.4 = 42519 ATK, level 150 Flandre without SDM Residents has 46338, 9% more ATK), which works great with her excellent spell card formulas. There were circumstances, like with Aria-Singing Toruasutory, where Tenshi could out-damage Eiki (barely) with their SPI attacks (but that requires abnormally low DEF). As a tank, she had enough defensive prowess with Enduring Celestial and Keystone Formation that I never really found it useful to use State of Enlightenment (the EN wiki says that State of Enlightenment being a typical 1st turn action makes the use of Enduring Celestial questionable, but the other way around is true too). Since Tenshi's role as a tank is to switch, State of Enlightenment's delay is a bit counterproductive. Furthermore, buffing DEF/MND doesn't really help too much against some of the more powerful bosses like Avatar - Ama no Murakumo. For example, Ama no Murakumo's Wild Dance does 13K on average with no DEF buff for the setup I had Tenshi with (which I calculated to be the best possible setup that's also immune to all status), and 11K on average with 100% DEF. With 40K HP (before Scythe of Calamity), that's not even a 10% reduction. In general, the best way to reduce damage seems to be to stack HP and affinity, even with Tenshi's level of defenses.

Iku was a little difficult to use offensively because she needed MND debuffs to deal good damage with her spell cards, but she dealt excellent amounts of damage in those circumstances, as expected. In particular, pairing her with Reisen has led to a pretty reliable random encounter setup with Aya that goes Lunatic Red Eyes > Divine Grandson's Advent > Lunatic Red Eyes > Light Dragon's Sigh, which usually wipes out enemies regardless of their MND stat, unless they're of the high HP, low DEF/MND type (which Tenshi eliminates easily) or resist one/both elements. Her normal attack is also great for taking a boss down steadily (it's only about 10% weaker than Aspiration Surge on a -50% MND target, but better delay, lower cost, and calculates damage using 10% of the target's MND by default), but almost all of the post-game bosses were resistant to MYS. But as a tank/support character, Iku felt even more useful. Hisouten Guard bolsters her defensive stats high enough that, aside from her more lopsided affinities, she was able to endure all types of attacks better than Tenshi, while also having a more productive role as a tank. I ended up frequently using her as an Herbalist, as she had enough SPD (especially with Lightning Fish maxed out) to regularly buff characters and use Herb of Awakening. Since a lot of bosses apply annoying status effects like DTH and debuffs, and most equipment that boosts status resistances boosts all of them, the characters that would get buffed by Iku were already going to be immune to PAR and debuffs in the first place, so the negative effects don't matter too much. Iku could also apply PAR and DEF debuffs, so she could lock down PAR weak opponents and debuff enemies for Tenshi. Overall, I think Iku is the best character in the party composition, capable of excelling at every aspect of gameplay.

The rest of the characters generally acted as support or alternative attackers as necessary. Can't really say I have any complaints about them, the more I play with the party composition, the more strategies I find and the more complete it feels. The only thing that I've found disappointing thus far is overestimating how much Maribel can heal, as even with max MAG, Enhancer Keine usually heals more (and buffs too) with a lower delay. Luckily, that, along with Sanae and Healer Momiji, have thus far been enough to handle healing, so Maribel doesn't need to be good at healing.

That stuff aside, with every (important) boss I've been running calculations based on their stats and AI to figure out the most effective methods of attacking and setups for defending, but without any of Plus Disk's content datamined, that simply isn't an option. I could figure this stuff out through a more rough method of in-game testing, but that's more time consuming. So I was wondering, how does extracting stats and AI scripts go? If it's simply a matter of nobody wanting to do it, I'd happily do it. It'd be easier and more accurate than in-game testing this stuff (not to mention more interesting). It'd be nice to contribute that kind of information anyway.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 07:05:28 AM by LonelyGaruga »

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #754 on: June 23, 2017, 07:19:58 AM »
It actually also works with gatekeeper's nap (Meiling), fighting spirit (multiple people) and Mononobe's plates. Mononobe also has a harder time as it also removes one of her plates, which was the only reason why I think she was so hard to actually fit her into the team I was using. Meiling's increased healing at least makes the problem go away for her (brings it up to about 110% instead of 68%).

The problem is surprisingly prevalent in a lot of characters as any damage reducing passive is also a healing reducing passive. Transcendent and strategist sub-classes should also be reducing healing as well.
Oh wow, you're right. With a Strategist, Aya, and Transcendent target, Yasaka's Divine Wind was healing half as much as it should have (cumulative total is either 50% or 56%, depending on if % damage reduction is additive or multiplicative), from 24K to 12K. That's just...what. So any kind of % damage reduction impacts healing as well. Man, if I had Eiki active as well (or Awakened) it'd be down to 40%-51%. It seems like such a basic thing to get right, too.

That would mean that the same kind of programming is used for all of these damage reducing effects. I don't know whether they're using the same subroutine, or if each of these is separate, and I'm kind of hoping that it's the former.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #755 on: June 26, 2017, 08:57:27 AM »
I finally made something (kind of) cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df2jYp2pDGE

Ignore the game over at the start, video editing with Twitch is kind of bad.

Showing off how strong Sword of Hisou can be.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #756 on: June 26, 2017, 12:00:47 PM »
I finally made something (kind of) cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df2jYp2pDGE

Ignore the game over at the start, video editing with Twitch is kind of bad.

Showing off how strong Sword of Hisou can be.

That's fairly impressive! My worry is, though...

Just how powerful is Tenshi at clearing randoms? Like, I would not have cared if this were like TH1, where the endgame is all about single-enemy encounters (V.3 bosses, Serpent of Chaos, WINNER...), but it seems that TH2 PD's endgame will be all about the Endless Corridor, which likely puts a higher emphasis than TH1 on characters which can wipe multiple enemies at once, and with good speed (and TPs). This is why I'm wary about using Tenshi over somebody who can more easily kill many enemies at once (like Maribel, Yuyuko, or Yuuka)

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #757 on: June 26, 2017, 02:13:19 PM »
Violent Motherland is perfectly fine at that; it's formula is average for all-targets but it'll still be backed by high ATK. If anything, it's probably easier to have Iku out with Tenshi all the time in randoms compared to boss fights. On the flip side, she's gonna be really slow to get her first turn in, and there's not a whole lot you can do about that. (The aforementioned Yuyuko and Yuuka are possibly even slower than Tenshi though anyway, after their expensive library costs)

And Iku isn't a waste of a slot at all in randoms, since she can either heavily buff the best person's attack up (as her speed is far higher in Plus than in base game, you can totally set up to outspeed most characters) or she can shred stuff with her zippy defense-ignoring attacks (with wnd spells as backup).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 02:17:40 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #758 on: June 26, 2017, 06:22:12 PM »
 Iku can also use Light Dragon's Sigh to debuff the enemies DEF for Tenshi to mow them down, if you have Aya you could also have Iku act twice in a row to both buff Tenshi and then debuff the enemies , this probably kills anything that isn't extremely resistant to NTR/WND or has ridiculous defenses/HP. Tenshi also gets Always Rising after Falling so she can afford to receive some damage in randoms.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 08:42:08 PM by Libra »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #759 on: June 26, 2017, 07:01:19 PM »
Violent Motherland is perfectly fine at that; it's formula is average for all-targets but it'll still be backed by high ATK. If anything, it's probably easier to have Iku out with Tenshi all the time in randoms compared to boss fights.

Ah, Iku is easy to keep out during boss fights because Hisouten Guard makes her more durable than Tenshi, except for SPI attacks (Tenshi has 60 more base SPI affinity than Iku). That plus her better HP. She could (as long as damage variance was not unkind) withstand Knockout in Three Steps from Shadow Yuugi with a 0% DEF buff, for example (thanks to Tenshi's Freedom from Worldly Thoughts for -30% PHY damage). Tenshi can do that too with a 100% buff, but she still has damage variance issues. Komachi is probably (I'm assuming) the only character more durable than Iku if you ignore the other synergy skills, although post-Awakening Tenshi would easily surpass Iku's durability.

But yeah, when I first got Tenshi she was wiping out everything with Violent Motherland (especially after Light Dragon's Sigh from Iku) aside from extremely high DEF enemies and/or ones with high NTR resistance. I didn't think to optimize her ATK via equipment at that time though, she might've been able to accomplish that if I had thought to do so. Violent Motherland also benefits from having one of the best animations in the game, so it's doubly awesome. Presently, with the B1-2f enemies all being weak (or neutral at worst) to SPI, I've been going max SPD Strategist Iku with Sanae as the attacker. After being buffed with Thundercloud Stickleback, Sanae has enough MAG that she can two-shot everything on those floors with Night of Bright Guest Stars (even the high MND enemies), although usually the sequence goes in a way that Sanae attacks once before being buffed (if Iku gets Raid Maneuver then Sanae gets buffed before attacking). Aya gives enough speed between switching and Divine Grandson's Advent that everything gets done before any enemy actions, except for the Skull Eaters (who usually miss with their attacks).

Speaking of Aya, she lets Tenshi (and other slow characters, or just characters in general) get quick turns with switching in an Instant Attack character and switching back. That's usually enough to be able to wipe the enemy party before one can act, unless an enemy has extremely high speed.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #760 on: June 26, 2017, 08:37:05 PM »
That is good to know - well, at least Tomes of Reincarnation are a thing, so I can freely test stuff once I reach the corridor, thus putting less stress on me getting the squad right the first time (whereas in TH1 I have to restart everytime I realize my squad is suboptimal <.<)

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #761 on: June 26, 2017, 11:14:25 PM »
Hey, Serela. Where was it that we could send a message about bugs again? Because apparently, it was discovered that damage reducing passives also reduced the amount of healing that would be received while the damage boosting skills also boosted the enemies ability to heal(easiest to test via the elemental damage reduce/damage boost skills and healing spells that has the matching element to said skills), and we kind of wanted to know how to submit a bug report to let the dev know about this, as it's a fairly big bug at that...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #762 on: June 26, 2017, 11:25:06 PM »
I dunno. Find someone to translate it to japanese and tweet it at him?

If you wanted to submit it to the jp wiki you'd have to ask someone who's -physically in japan- apparently, and I don't know if that'd even work. Last time this came up (unreported bugs like Sealing Club not working; fixed now iirc) I don't think any conventional bug report method was found.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #763 on: June 27, 2017, 05:16:55 AM »
I had taken a huge break from the Kraken shadows bullcrap, and I come back to a horrendous bug being discovered. I never would've noticed that on my own, so that pretty cool that you guys did. Any tips on how to beat the Kraken now that diva Aya has been nerfed?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #764 on: June 27, 2017, 07:50:04 AM »
I used PAR spam from Iku and Momiji's Rabies Bite for damage, thought it was kinda easy tbh (although it took a while). Kraken's Shadow has a PAR resistance of 20 so it's pretty weak to it. You won't be able to lock it down (I think), but you can slow it down a lot doing that. Debuffing its SPD helps to slow it down even further. If you're having trouble surviving its attacks, try stacking a ton of DEF or something. If you can get 21K+ DEF after buffs, you can completely negate Octangle Attack's damage. Coming close to that value is good enough to survive it easily anyway.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #765 on: June 27, 2017, 10:48:45 AM »
 SHK resistance also helps since it sometimes likes to spam moves that inflict it, which can slow your frontline down considerably if you get unlucky. The Kraken's strength is its high SPD but its attacks usually don't hurt too bad, Octangle Attack also wastes its turns since it's actually really easy to survive with either good DEF or high CLD resistance.
 Even then, in the grand scheme of **** that are the shadow bosses, the Kraken is pretty mild; the wasps, squirrel, Memorized Knowledge and Azure Giant are much worse (though you can cheese some of them with DTH), and then there's the Mirror...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #766 on: June 27, 2017, 01:12:34 PM »
I managed to beat them through a little training on 20F, but I wonder if the level I am now (around 250 average) is too much for plus disk... I mean, it seems adequate for random encounters in the original postgame, but maybe the plus disk starting floors were easier?

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #767 on: June 27, 2017, 02:21:25 PM »
250? Jesus christ, that's at -least- 50 levels of sheer overkill :V Yeah, you're gonna stomp postgame into the ground for awhile.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #768 on: June 27, 2017, 02:46:32 PM »
250? Jesus christ, that's at -least- 50 levels of sheer overkill :V Yeah, you're gonna stomp postgame into the ground for awhile.

Hey it's not my fault I couldn't outspeed and kill randoms under that level lol - anyway now I have all my chars at around that level with 3X Grand Master Breaking Title for each (mostly), so I'm ready for whenever the translation comes out :-)

Meanwhile I restarted my TH1 save to make the following changes to my squad:

Suwako -> Mystia (Suwako is too frail, and Mystia's much stronger than I thought - plus the PAR chance on Midnight Chorus Master is extremely useful vs WINNER)
Flandre -> Yuuka (Yuuka's Master Spark hits roughly as hard as Flandre Lavatein, so she's equally good for farming Serpent of Chaos. And unlike Flandre she doesn't need constant healing while fighting WINNER, though she does noticeably less dmg)
Rumia -> Ran (I don't rly need a 3rd healer, and none of Rumia, Sanae or Eirin are suitable for fighting WINNER. Ran, on the other hand, provides excellent support with her buffs as well as a backup tank in case Keine bites the dust)
Yuugi -> Maribel (Yuugi hits hard but is way too slow. Maribel on the other hand is incredibly fast and hits decently hard thanks to Overflowing Unnatural Power. I still gotta test the efficacy of her stat debuffs on WINNER)

It'll take a few weeks but I should be able to get back to where I was with my previous save soon, given that I ported skill points and all^^
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:51:20 PM by elminster1372 »

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #769 on: June 27, 2017, 03:26:10 PM »
with 3X Grand Master Breaking Title for each (mostly), so I'm ready for whenever the translation comes out
how
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #770 on: June 27, 2017, 04:36:03 PM »
how

They drop from that squirrel on 16F in the postgame - the odds are apparently pretty low (0.4%), but if you use Nazrin with Rinnosuke it doesn't take longer than 20-30 hours of play I reckon. Plus I didn't equip all 12 with 3X Medals. For example, Renko has items to enhance her HP and her evasion (which, at around 150 or so EVA, makes her nearly invincible). In total I think I have around 20X Medals across the whole team.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #771 on: June 27, 2017, 04:43:30 PM »
Well, when it's something as valuable as that, grinding for it doesn't sound like a bad idea. I presume that you're using the move that increases the chances of getting an item drop on a kill?
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #772 on: June 27, 2017, 06:04:40 PM »
Well, when it's something as valuable as that, grinding for it doesn't sound like a bad idea. I presume that you're using the move that increases the chances of getting an item drop on a kill?

Yes I was - I was also running away from any encounter not featuring those squirrels (even larvaes because those Genji Gloves and Zeus Armor are not as good as they look - slapping a Glove on your physical sweeper or an Armor on your tank is fine, but the fact that, unlike Medal, they don't give ailment or affinity bonuses is a huge problem)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #773 on: June 27, 2017, 06:19:40 PM »
I managed to beat them through a little training on 20F, but I wonder if the level I am now (around 250 average) is too much for plus disk... I mean, it seems adequate for random encounters in the original postgame, but maybe the plus disk starting floors were easier?

Yeah, B1f is at about the right level to challenge immediately after defeating Avatar - Ama no Murakumo. Besides the Shadow Kasen fight (Brave 140), the first boss fight (Shadow Onis) is at Brave Level 160. The random encounters vary wildly though, from post-game 16f encounters like Poisonous Sea Slug and Skull Eater (148-149), new ordinary random encounters like Hell Kedama and Creeping Grudge (162-168), and ridiculously high level enemies like Aggregated Grudge and Void of Pandemonium (206-218). You can still take the last group of enemies out with some effort at level 160 though, and they drop amazing equipment for how early they are (Aggregated Grudge gives a +320% SPD equipment, Void of Pandemonium gives one with +256% ATK plus some other bonuses). Their rates are pretty nice too, 2-3%.

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who farmed Grand Master Breaker Titles on 16f too. I only grabbed 9 in addition to the freebies from treasure/achievements, for a total of 12 (haven't needed more than that), took several hours (I wasn't using any drop boosting skills though) but GMB Title is still the best defensive equipment all the way through B4f (furthest I've gotten so far). The drop rate's 0.9% too, so it's a lot easier to get than it seems. I wasn't running away from non-squirrel encounters though, dunno if it'd have been faster to do so or not (accounting for boosted drop rates from consecutive victories and TP issues). I have started doing that for Plus Disk encounters, but mainly because the battles are a lot harder, and wasting MP is not helpful.

It's just as well that you didn't farm Genji Gloves/Zeus' Armor, as those things get outdated as soon as you step into Plus Disk anyway. Between the aforementioned +256% ATK equip and +240% MAG equips that can be obtained from a B2f encounter (it's necessary to visit B2f before reaching the Shadow Onis), as far as offensive bonuses go, those things quickly fall behind. GMB Title gives you the most benefit for the effort put into acquiring it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 06:22:02 PM by LonelyGaruga »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #774 on: June 27, 2017, 09:02:38 PM »
Good to know that it wasn't a wasted effort :-) Anyway, I'm considering leveldropping to face bosses just in case they're too easy, we'll see^^ (after all, I can always avoid the pain of levelling back up by resetting and trouncing them again at max level :-P )

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #775 on: June 27, 2017, 10:14:40 PM »
They probably will be too easy, Plus Disk bosses generally have much lower defenses compared to the main game's bosses, in exchange for high offensive presence, making for fast paced fights. Since you're so overleveled, it's likely you'll wipe them out before they can properly get started. I did some tests for the earlier ones, my estimates on offensive/defensive stats so far are

Shadow Kasen: 30K ATK, 60K DEF, 55K MND
Shadow Yuugi: 57K ATK, 90K DEF, 10K MND
Shadow Suika: 30K ATK, 15K DEF, 52.5K MND

Shadow Kogasa: 45K ATK, 60K DEF, 30K MND

Shadow Hina: 35K DEF, 70K MND (didn't check Hina's MAG or Parsee's ATK)
Shadow Parsee: 32.5K DEF, 250K+ MND (couldn't deal magic damage to her even with Iku's normal attacks, she has at least 250K, maybe 300-325K MND)

Avatar - Ama no Murakumo had 36.6K ATK and 150K DEF/MND for comparison. Since the defenses on Plus Disk bosses are so low (for the most part), defense ignoring attacks tend to fall behind attacks with higher multipliers. For example, Eiki's Last Judgement does about 25% less damage to Hina and Parsee compared to Tenshi's Sword of Hisou. Debuffing enemy defenses also tends to not be very important for the same reason, very little damage is gained from doing so. For example, using Shadow Hina and Sword of Hisou again, using the setup that I had, Tenshi can do 156K damage on average to her. With a -50% DEF debuff, that 156K becomes 165K, which is a mere 5.7% damage increase.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #776 on: June 27, 2017, 10:43:02 PM »
That is good news tbh - I mean, I understand that piercing attacks need to have an advantage sometimes, but TH2 REALLY overdid it with defenses. I can't count the number of bosses against which most of my team mates did 0 damage bar extreme nukes (like Parsee) and damage-ignoring attackers (like Eiki). But yeah I'll definitely lower my levels to avoid overnuking prolly (though this means I get to keep all extra ability points, but at least I can reset stat bonuses)

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #777 on: June 28, 2017, 01:54:19 AM »
Plus Disk does have its share of high defense bosses like Grandgon, but for the most part yeah you don't need to include a few characters just to be able to do damage to most bosses any more.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #778 on: June 28, 2017, 04:43:27 AM »
Good to hear, the high defense bosses in 2 was one of the biggest gripes i had about it since I'm a weirdo and like making defense-oriented parties over offensive ones. In my first playthru, the only people who could do not 0 to the final boss was Nitori (cuz duh), and KOGASA of all people, who I did NOT think was going to be a 'power nuke' in my playthru (she's not but when she can damage enemies while youmu did 0 with slash of eternity and patchy did 0 with silent selene and marisa did 0 with master spark.... yeah). Bonus points for being the only character who could ever debuff the defenses on said bosses too (since many seemed to resist debuffs from other characters too, yarg!)

Honestly, it kinda  convinced me that kogasa is an amazing character in game in general, but I never hear anyone mention her. She has a reliable nuke with dark element (which IIRC people said was a 'good' element) that all but guaranteeds a much-needed mnd debuff whom nobody else can deliver as far as I can tell (in my 2nd playthru, not even hina can debuff as reliably.. yes she can debuff more faster, but she can't pin-point debuff a PARTICULAR stat with more reliability in my experience). That and her defenses aren't bad, in fact IIRC they're actually pretty good. I mean her defense is good, her hp and mnd wasn't good but they were pretty average overall IIRC, and her leveling was crazy fast. I'm not saying she's op or anything, just that... I think she kinda can do something useful to pretty much any party. Just don't focus on terror with her.

I'm probably the noobest lot2 fan at this point though since I didn't even finish post game content. By the time I got to that point + disc was coming out, so I decided to wait.. and wait and wait and.. well yeah I'm just stubborn.

I realize leveling fast only provides so much benefit since everyone 'caps' at each boss anyway, but does + disc or infinite dungeon change this? I mean are bosses in the inifinite dungeon 'level capped' as well? Because leveling fast will become an important 'stat' again if not.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #779 on: June 28, 2017, 06:37:18 AM »
Yeah, Kogasa is pretty cool. With her leveling rate, her ATK is almost on par with Momiji's, but A Rainy Night's Ghost Story has a tremendous damage modifier (almost as high as Tenshi's World Creation Press), dealing about as much damage as Eirin's Astronomical Entombing (with People of the Moon). With Plus Disk's Ultra Water-Repellent Ghost Umbrella, when attacking a TRR afflicted enemy, her ATK stat is increased by 33% (as opposed to increasing the end result by 33% like most other damage boosting skills), so she can overwhelm enemy DEF through sheer ATK, getting damage done even when she would normally do 0. It's a bit more potent than a 33% damage boost because of this, A Rainy Night's Ghost Story gets closer to 40% more damage on average for example. Combined with Sheer Force, it is also the most reliable MND debuffing attack (Reisen's Lunatic Red Eyes + Intense Vertigo and Hina's Misfortune God's Biorhythm come really close though).

Kogasa's DEF is also really good, with her leveling rate, it's almost as high as Tenshi's, but with about 20% more HP. Momiji still has a bit higher DEF (what with having the best DEF in the game and all), but Kogasa is pretty high up there, although she is held back quite a bit in the MND department (Momiji has about 20% more MND, Tenshi has about 50% more MND), and she takes a lot more SPI damage since her base is 50. But that doesn't change that Kogasa is a lot tankier than her base stats look thanks to having one of the best leveling rates in the game.

For the exact numbers on the defensive stats, with Transcendent + Body Reinforcement and no equipment or level up bonuses invested (bulky attacker setup, so max ATK for levels)

Level 181 Tenshi: 14129 HP, 15133 DEF, 14935 MND
Level 187 Momiji: 19528 HP, 16441 DEF, 12362 MND
Level 195 Kogasa: 17333 HP, 15000 DEF, 10963 MND

Using 186 Iku as the party's average to scale from. I'm not 100% on whether or not the % stuff I've said will remain true 50 or 100 levels from now, but I'll correct myself later if that's not the case. Most enemy attacks use 50% or even 25% of your defensive stats, so the difference in their static values is smaller in practice (half of Tenshi and Kogasa's DEF would be 7566 and 7500, for example).

If the level caps you're talking about are from playing on Hard Mode, I'm pretty sure that's lifted after beating Ama no Murakumo. Don't take my word for when it's lifted though, I didn't play on Hard Mode. Regardless, you still get nice items for doing fights at Brave Level in Plus Disk (a different set of stat boosting items than the ones in the main game), so it's a good idea to aim for that still.