Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F  (Read 189107 times)

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #660 on: April 30, 2017, 12:43:22 PM »
What I assumed it meant is the stat increase you're passively gaining from having a buff on is larger, not that a buff cast on you will increase your buff level by a certain percent more. I could be wrong, though.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #661 on: April 30, 2017, 07:23:16 PM »
Huh, I didn't consider that, which is kind of dumb since Miko is the one character with a skill that does that (for herself). Looking at the JP wiki again, it looks like it increases the % values added by buffs and the strength of the buff itself by the 16/8% values. That's actually a lot better than I originally thought it was, instead of making buffs easier to get and maintain with small increases, large buffs become even stronger. I was reworking my planned team and couldn't find a spot to fill, looks like Miko fits right in again. The buff strength thing makes a lot of sense in retrospect, the JP wiki drew comparisons with Maribel's Vision Sharing, but it wouldn't make sense to do that if the skill only affected increases from buffs. It also makes sense to exclude Miko from the effect, since otherwise it would stack with her personal buff strengthening skill.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #662 on: May 02, 2017, 04:11:38 PM »
Speaking about this... has anybody tested Maribel's Vision Sharing? Does it give a standard boost? Or a "hidden" stat boost, like Sealing Club or the other kinship passives? Because if it's the latter, it's gonna be devastating - +25% passive to everybody while she's on the front with maxxed buffs (and +50% to Renko, who already has Maintenance!) is crazy. Not that the other way would be worthless - though maybe not as glorious.

Nefer007

  • Nefer007, Shinto God of Insects, Doctorate in Referralology
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #663 on: May 02, 2017, 04:43:34 PM »
How would I go about modding base LoT2? I really do want to just break the game more than it needs to be broken.
Looking for Desunoya music! Help me obtain these ill-gotten goods!

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #664 on: May 02, 2017, 09:15:29 PM »
Short answer: Cheat Engine, Ollydbg, possibly programming and google how to extract .dxa files and know the game will load files from a folder if the .dxa can't be found.

But I have no idea what you were expecting, noone created any public tools for this specific game, if that's what you're asking for (?).
Well, EthanSilver (his name on this forum) posted his findings like 3 years ago, but I can't be bothered to look it up now. A simple hex editor would do in that case since all you would have to do is search for the specified address and change the value, then save.
I remember I shared some cheat engine scripts before I put them into the exe that had options to do other basic stuff like removing the gem cap and adjusting exp and money gain rate a bit by various means, but noone was interested so I stopped keeping track of it, not even sure if it's still up somewhere, would probably be an old version anyway and what I have now would need cleaning up and I'm too lazy.
Maybe I missed something, but I -think- thats as far as LoT2 modding/hacking went so far.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #665 on: May 03, 2017, 06:41:47 AM »
 I know some programming but haven't kept my knowledge up to date for like a decade because despite everyone saying it was a high demand job, I never got hired for shit because nepotism ho! But I never heard of ollydbg. Upon googling it it sounds like cheatengine. google doesn't tell me however if it's worth understanding in addition to cheat-engine or if it's kind of an either or option like directx/openGL. Soo uhhh.. is it?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #666 on: May 03, 2017, 12:38:13 PM »
I know some programming but haven't kept my knowledge up to date for like a decade because despite everyone saying it was a high demand job, I never got hired for shit because nepotism ho! But I never heard of ollydbg. Upon googling it it sounds like cheatengine. google doesn't tell me however if it's worth understanding in addition to cheat-engine or if it's kind of an either or option like directx/openGL. Soo uhhh.. is it?

ollydbg is a runtime debugger. You can use it to learn how a program works. If you've ever used a regular code debugger, like in visual studio or gdb, it's kinda like that. Except you don't get the source code, only the assembly.

It's what I used to make the various code changes to LoT1. e.g. "okay, where's the code responsible for the level up message? ...found it. Where's the variable corresponding to the character's name? ...there. Now I just need to rewrite this code to not call Rinnosuke a lady and save it."

That's glossing over all the details but it's a simple example of what I used it for.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #667 on: May 03, 2017, 10:45:25 PM »
Speaking about this... has anybody tested Maribel's Vision Sharing? Does it give a standard boost? Or a "hidden" stat boost, like Sealing Club or the other kinship passives? Because if it's the latter, it's gonna be devastating - +25% passive to everybody while she's on the front with maxxed buffs (and +50% to Renko, who already has Maintenance!) is crazy. Not that the other way would be worthless - though maybe not as glorious.

It should work like the latter based on the wording of both the EN translation and the original JP, along with the comments about how to use it in the JP wiki, but that's not the same as testing it. But I think that's good enough?

--

Unrelated, cleared the 12f Tenshi battle at Brave Level (level range was 48-54, 49 average, target was 50). Iku's normal attacks backed by Sorcerer really are as strong as they're made out to be. Was able to average about 1.5K with Tenshi at 100% MND from State of Enlightenment with no buffs to Iku's MAG besides Magic Beating, even Reisen was doing 2 damage at best with People of the Moon backed Discarder. As Tenshi's buffs decayed the damage was about 4.5-4.75K (with just Magic Beating still), which was about 6% of Tenshi's HP per hit. Was able to avoid both Sword of Hisou and Violent Motherland by using just Iku's normal attacks as the main means of offense, making the fight fairly simple. Eirin with Healer for Prayer of Recovery is also healing for about 1.8K average without buffs, which is nearly double HP for most characters in the party. The overheal has been really convenient, I had some doubts before trying it out but it's about as effective as I thought it might be even with the Plus Disc nerf.

So far the only party change I've made is swapping Reimu out for Sanae after learning MP growth from leveling up is capped at twice the character's base MP (is this mentioned at all on the EN wiki? Didn't see it anywhere, kind of useful to know). While the max MP is still quite high factoring in MP Gems/Orbs and equipment, it means MP recovery is kind of relevant for long-term combat. I think having Sanae's Awakening skill for MP recovery is more useful than what Reimu can do, since there's already at least one character in the planned team that can do everything Reimu can do. Eiki can technically do MP recovery support post-Awakening as well, but not nearly as effectively as Sanae. Otherwise, the party's been doing their roles about as well as I thought they might aside from Kogasa (due to lack of Awakening), who still does well as a DEF targeting attacker that can MND debuff, which combos well with Iku doing the inverse. Need to see how it holds up later on in the game though.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #668 on: May 04, 2017, 11:40:15 AM »
Yeah Reimu is definitely no longer the "must-have" character she was in TH1 - it's also worth noting that Rumia's Demarcation is nothing to scoff at in TH2, and Maribel's Novice Border, when levelled to the max, can heal a significant amount of HP as well. But it is also worth noting that, as far as I know, Reimu's MP recovery passive is the only one that works even when she's not on the front line (unlike, say, Sanae or Mystia), which can make the difference in long explorations.

Also whoa, MP cap? :-O that's kinda relevant, I mean - in TH1 MP became a non-concern in the endgame, but here it would be a whole different story (though it remains to be seen how much MP you can get from gear, gems, MP boost abilities etc.)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #669 on: May 04, 2017, 07:27:26 PM »
Yeah Reimu is definitely no longer the "must-have" character she was in TH1 - it's also worth noting that Rumia's Demarcation is nothing to scoff at in TH2, and Maribel's Novice Border, when levelled to the max, can heal a significant amount of HP as well. But it is also worth noting that, as far as I know, Reimu's MP recovery passive is the only one that works even when she's not on the front line (unlike, say, Sanae or Mystia), which can make the difference in long explorations.

Also whoa, MP cap? :-O that's kinda relevant, I mean - in TH1 MP became a non-concern in the endgame, but here it would be a whole different story (though it remains to be seen how much MP you can get from gear, gems, MP boost abilities etc.)

Yeah with the current team composition I have, Maribel's MT heal should be fine...once I get her, anyway. I don't know how strong it is exactly since the formula doesn't seem to be listed, but given that the Boost effect it grants also affects heals, and based on some gameplay I've seen with her, it seems like it's perfectly sufficient. After something like Great Catastrophe (or whatever the full party HP to 1 thing is called, playing unpatched), could have Maribel Concentrate for Grand Incantation and Aya use Divine Grandson's Advent to immediately followup with DIY Novice Barrier for an easy full heal. Kogasa can do healing on TRR susceptible targets post-Awakening too (8% is more of a nice passive to soften MT attacks, but 26% + Speedy Formation Change for 9100 ATB switches is amazing), but that's still a long ways away. Some of the subclass stuff like Enhancer granting 16% HP heals on buffs seems like it could be handy for healing against weaker MT attacks that don't necessitate a proper healing spell card. I dunno how useful the MP recovery passive Reimu has is though, considering the 8 characters not in the front recover MP during battle. Swapping characters around might be able to compensate for a lack of MP recovery. Plus a 66% activation rate for just +1 MP seems rather unsatisfying overall.

Regarding the MP cap, I spent some time looking at that kind of thing to see what the max MP is passively. MP Gems and Orbs cap out at +10 each, Normal/Second/Mega MP Boost give +5/10/15 MP respectively, and Rinnosuke's High/Giga MP Boost skills grant +10/+25 MP respectively. Ran also gets a unique MP boosting skill that caps at +10 from her Awakening. So from passive bonuses alone, if you max out the MP Boost skills at their highest level, is +35 MP for all characters except Rinnosuke and Ran, who get +45 MP instead. You can also get +2-6 MP from subclasses. From equipment, the main equipment Button of Undying and Tokugawa Doubling Gold grant +12 MP (and the latter seems like the best piece of main equipment for buff/healing focused characters), and several equipment pieces grant +2-6 MP (though I lack the experience to effectively gauge which sub equipment is best for end-game). Though, actually, the EN wiki says that the Button of Undying is +15 MP, and it lists Judas Pain (which has a missing spot in the JP wiki, incompletion is such a nuisance) as +15 MP and +2 MP Recovery, which would make it the best MP focused main equipment. So the theoretical maximum MP is +35/45 from passive bonuses, +6 from subclass, +15 from the main equipment, and +18 from the sub equipment, for a total of +74/84 MP. Assuming that there are no sub equipments unlisted on the JP wiki that grant more than 6 MP. Characters with Maintenance can get +30/+36 from main/sub equipment. Don't think I missed anything, but that doesn't mean I didn't.

idk if it's of any usefulness, but the max MP from leveling up for every character is

60: Akyuu
56: Patchouli, Flandre
52: Eirin, Yuuka, Miko
50: Yuyuko
48: Minoriko, Yukari, Byakuren
46: Mamizou
44: Marisa
42: Kaguya, Kanako
40: Komachi, Ran, Futo
38: Utsuho, Alice, Sanae
36: Keine, Maribel
34: Kasen
32: Reimu, Rumia, Nazrin, Reisen, Suwako, Kokoro, Koishi
30: Cirno, Nitori, Wriggle, Satori, Iku, Eiki, Shou, Tokiko
28: Kogasa, Mystia, Hina, Rin, Meiling, Suika, Sakuya, Tenshi, Renko
26: Parsee, Mokou, Aya
24: Youmu
20: Chen, Remilia
18: Rinnosuke, Momiji, Yuugi

Average is 35 34 MP, median is 32 MP, most common is 28 MP with 9 characters (30 MP has 8, 32 MP has 7). With MP Gems/Orbs/Boosts maxed out, Momiji and Yuugi have the lowest MP in the game at 53, while Akyuu gets 95 MP to work with. Akyuu also has the longest to reach the cap. With a 1/18 MP growth rate and 30 base MP, she won't reach 60 MP until level 541. As a comparison, Tokiko has the worst MP growth rate in the game at 1/25 and 15 base MP, and reaches her cap of 30 MP at level 376. Generally speaking, most characters can use their most expensive spell cards several times without restoring their MP with MP Gems/Orbs/Boosts maxed out. Like Reimu gets 67 MP under those circumstances, which lets her use Exorcising Border 8 times consecutively without MP recovery, or Great Hakurei Barrier 9 times. Still very different from the first game;s virtually unlimited spell card usage by endgame, especially with MP recovery being static and not % based (aside from skills like Small MP Recovery).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 07:39:26 PM by LonelyGaruga »

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #670 on: May 05, 2017, 12:46:56 AM »
So far the only party change I've made is swapping Reimu out for Sanae after learning MP growth from leveling up is capped at twice the character's base MP (is this mentioned at all on the EN wiki? Didn't see it anywhere, kind of useful to know).
I did not know this. At all. And if it IS on the wiki, I must have missed it because it was really shocking when I confirmed that this was true... I just kind of assumed that it would be like LoT1 where you'll just get longer and longer strings of not having to worry about MP as you leveled up further and further.

Its kind of cool though, it means MP management is always a concern. Which is great, since Concentrating in LoT2 isn't awful compared to Focusing LoT1. If I ever used Focus in LoT1, I was in a very desperate situation, or very rarely, I'd have a free "turn".

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #671 on: May 08, 2017, 03:42:39 AM »
Since no one else seems to be doing this, I'm going to be setting up the spots for the Awakening skills for the Plus Disc characters on the wiki. Can someone point me to the part of the thread where the data for said skills are?

Edit: Placeholders have been set.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 03:50:09 AM by Kirin no Sora »
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #672 on: May 08, 2017, 01:37:11 PM »


Shou
True Bishamonten's Wrath (1*60): Bishamonten's Wrath counter will no longer halve when the user moves to the back.
Ability to Gather More Wealth (1*60): Enhance Ability to Gather Wealth by increasing the experience bonus by 2%, and money and item drop rate bonus by 5%. Also, increase Radiant Treasure Gun's reward increase amount by 40%.
Piercing Attack (2*5)

Mamizou
Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki (1*70): When the user uses a normal attack, increase Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki counter by 1. Increase user's damage dealt by (counter*8)%, and reduce the user's damage intake by (counter*4)%. When the user moves to the back, remove the counter. The counter maxes at 5.
Trickery of Bake-Tanuki (1*50): When the user moves ot the back, instead of removing Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki counter, reduce it by 1 instead.
Majesty (2*5)

Futo
Seeking the Dragon in its Nest (1*160): When the user has learned both "Ritual Plate Offering to Mikoto Nigihayahi" and "Ritual Plate Offering to Okami Omononushi", both skills will take effect.
Super Agile Eighty Sake Cups (5*24): The user starts each battle with Sake Cup counter at (SLv).
Accelerate (1*10)

Miko

Prince's Lecture (1*144)
When the skill holder is in the front, all other frontlines receive 16% more benefit from buffs.
When the skill holder is in the back, all frontliners receive 8% more benefit from buffs.

Supreme Divinely-Appointed Stateswoman (1*100)
Both effects of Divinely-Appointed Statewoman will always be active.
Tradition of Just Rewards will take on both morphed elements and additional effects.

Mega Asuka Heritage Attack (1*50)
Asuka Heritage Attack's activation condition becomes "when HP is above 50%".


Kokoro

Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks (1*128)
Reduce Emotion Mask's debuff aspect on allies by half.
If Power of the Emotion Mask Creator also activates,
allies will suffer no debuff from Emotion Mask instead.

Mask of Hope (1*66)
When the skill holder receives a turn, regenerate HP at 10%.

Continued Spirit (1*60)
Fighting Spirit will not disappear when the skill holder moves to the back,
but will instead lose 1 level.


Tokiko

Tokiko's Thick Book Marital Arts (1*50)
If the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", increase DEF and MND by 25%.
If the skill holder is not under the effect of "Reading", increase ATK and MAG by 25%.

[I have no idea how to break this phrase] (1*80)
When the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", "The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengeance" and
"Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness"'s special effects are further strengthened,
and the spells' power is also increased. When this effecf activates, there is a low chance
that "Reading" effect will disappear.

Book-reading Youkai's Unremarkable Grudge (1*60)
In battle, if Reimu or Marisa is in the back,
"Victim of Reimu and Marisa's brutality" will activate at half strength.


Koishi

Embryo's Dream (1*70)
When evading an attack, increase "Embryo's Dream" counter by 1 33% of the time.
When attacking, using a spell, or using concentrate while Embryo's Dream counter is present,
reduce the counter by 1 and repeat the action. This will use MP as normal, and won't activate if the user doesn't have enough MP.

Super-responsive Senses+ (1*70)
When Super-responsive Senses activate, action gauge is increased by 10000 instead.

Embryo Dance for Some Reason (1*128)
When evading an attack, the chance of "Embryo's Dream" counter increasing is doubled.




Akyuu
Desire for Greater Wisdom (1*50)
Occasionally "Protecting Art of Wisdom" and "Guarding Art of Wisdom" will affect all frontliners.

Protector of Knowledge (1*75)
"Temporary Invincibility" and "Temporary Invulnerability" will naturally disappear half as often.

True Maiden of Are (1*50)
"Power of the Child of Miare" will occasionally not consume TP when it activates.

Miare's Great Knowledge (5*25)
Mp Cost 11 / Targets all allies / NTR / Auxillary
A support spell that places a "increase next action's damage" boost on all allies.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #673 on: May 08, 2017, 01:55:09 PM »
Thank you. I'll get to inputting that in now.

Edit: I have finished with Akyuu's entry, which I decided to do first because of the fact that she's the only one with a spell as an Awakening skill in the Plus Disc character group. The rest will be done shortly.

Edit the 2nd: The name of one of Tokiko's skills has not been translated, so I'm going to put in a filler name("Book Lover's Ardor") for now, if that's all right by everyone. If it's not, please let me know.

Edit the 3rd: I was looking at the picture of Tokiko's untranslated skill here, so if someone could write the name in Japanese on the thread, I can try to figure out how to input this. Otherwise, I'll just leave in the filler name and continue filling in the other entries.

Edit the 4th: All data inputted.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 04:44:59 PM by Kirin no Sora »
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Nefer007

  • Nefer007, Shinto God of Insects, Doctorate in Referralology
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #674 on: May 09, 2017, 01:41:47 AM »
Guys, help.

I'm running base LoT2, and have completed everything up to Shadow Boss Rush and Avatar - Ame-no-Murakumo...
except for getting a few achievements. I can knock out Coward Demon on my own, and will probably grab Slapping Her Face With Money Bundles by accident during the preparation, but...
where the hell is that Modified Taser and Midgard's Tooth?!? They're the only two main equips that I have not found, and I have stood on every tile of the Great Tree and opened every last chest, killed one of just about everything, and obtained all the characters... and they still elude me!
Anyone know where I can find those two things?

The moonwiki's saying Midgard's Tooth is close to the 10F entrance (yet never states a floor,) and the Modified Taser is somewhere on 14F...

... or perhaps I just didn't actually check the maps.  :smokedcheese:
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:03:17 AM by Nefer007 »
Looking for Desunoya music! Help me obtain these ill-gotten goods!

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #675 on: May 09, 2017, 05:53:06 PM »
My LofT2 is stuck at double speed, is there someway to fix this?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #676 on: May 09, 2017, 06:31:14 PM »
Change your monitors refresh rate to 60, the games speed is based on that for whatever reason.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #677 on: May 09, 2017, 06:50:39 PM »
Hmm, I can't fight Eiki on 13f despite meeting the requirements (beat Glowing Azure Giant, have 72 achievements, Komachi has 1.3K battle points from grinding out the 3K battle achievement). Checked the JP wiki to confirm these are the only requirements. Is there something I could do to fix this?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #678 on: May 09, 2017, 10:27:34 PM »
yeah, I can't change my refresh rate as the only option is 120hz, is there a way to lower it? I'm not getting a lot of results

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #679 on: May 10, 2017, 03:43:54 AM »
Since you said you can't lower it, I'm assuming you already tried the usual way, but I'm not sure since I didn't think there's monitors that can't lower it so just in case, open the screen that has the options to change screen resolution (it's all in german for me, not sure how it translates), open advanced settings. That should open a window about your graphic card+monitor, click on the monitor tab and that hols the setting for your monitors refresh rate... ... in windows 7. I don't know about windows NT which you seem to be using, but it's probably similar since it's still windows and I clearly remember it being very similar in windows xp.
Should be fairly easy to find, but if it really doesn't go below 120, then I -think- you are out of luck unless you have a second monitor with more common refresh rate options.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #680 on: May 11, 2017, 10:26:55 PM »
So I've started playing this game again after playing it to around 10-12f or something a couple years ago, and I had my team mostly picked for me (they're the bigger touhou fan, I just really enjoy this series' modification of the Etrian Odyssey formula). Playing through normally, but my final team is going to be:

Reimu, Rinnosuke, Youmu, Nazrin, Reisen, Meiling, Byakuren, Yuugi, Alice, Utsuho, +2 more
I'd like to pick two more characters to round this party out, so I thought I'd get some advice (this would be for standard main-game + post-game, not plus disk / special disk type content). Once I 100% all of the BP requirements in the game (I have a list I keep updating) I'd like to stick with a specific 12 through thick and thin.

Other questions:
1) Should I get the plus disk? If I understand correctly, its out but untranslated, and I'd prefer to stay with a translated game (mostly).
2) What should I do with Youmu? Even without coming here I've realized it's very difficult to make use of her, which makes me sad as she's my favorite. Tank build and fix her mind somehow? She could be tank #2 behind Rinnosuke until I get to Byakuren. (I used Meiling as a main tank in LoT1, but that seems such a waste in this one, from what I've seen O.O)
3) Who should I spend my special items on at this point? If it would help, I'd gladly show Youmu some favoritism, but it seems like Rinnosuke might best use the training manuals at least, since hes so skill-hungry.
4) Any other suggested builds? Some seem obvious (Strategist Byakuren), but I'm unsure on many, and could never settle on much of anything sub-class wise the first time around playing this. There's so much more going on in this game that I get a serious case of analysis paralysis as compared to the first.


nyttyn

  • Drill baby drill!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #681 on: May 11, 2017, 11:14:56 PM »
1) If you want your stuff fully translated, hold off. Most of the plusses to it (hah) are post-game anyway, which is some good time away. It might even get a discount before then, depending on how sales on the site work (idk how they do).

2) Youmu in the base game is...um, bad. Yes. The offensive build is flat out worse than every other attacker just about, and the swap tank build is okay enough but Komachi does it better. The plus disc gives her a lot of love, but most of it is at the post-game level and I haven't had a chance to go into it yet. But she's not unusuable, which leads me into point 3.

3) Just use them on whoever you like the most, they let you turn anyone you want into a force to be reckoned with.
But do not feed Rinnosuke the Training Manuals, in your party the only person who they should go to is Byakuren, who's incredibly skill point hungry.

4) Just decide what role you want them to fulfill, and then assign them a subclass and stats based off of that. There's no real need to be anxious as you can change level-up stats and subclasses at will - the only thing you need to be careful about are the items that boost stats or teach skills, as they take a rare and limited item to get back.

Some added notes on this:

Everyone can work as an attacker if you're willing to apply various levels of grinding to them, but don't attempt to make them a support if they aren't already built for it, as almost all of the support subclasses are hot garbage at enabling people who don't already do the role in question to support.

For your current team, you need a tank, and another healer. Just go ahead and slap Komachi on, she works with the rest of your party and she'll tank anything the game has to offer. Go ahead and make her the Strategist instead of Byakuren too, since she'll be in slot 1 on the frontline all the time. This frees you upt o make Byakuren something else ( I recommend monk, more turns = more buffs). For the other healer it's up to you but I'd reccomend Eirin for most fights.

That being said, a world of warning on having a "final team" in this game, at least insofar as boss battles are concerned. Elemental affinities are king in this game, and characters are easily crippled if all of their attacks belong to affinites a boss resists. The game offers ways around this (namely in the form of subclasses), but be warned you have to grind a bit more to compensate for the relatively lower power of said skills.

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #682 on: May 11, 2017, 11:55:15 PM »
But do not feed Rinnosuke the Training Manuals, in your party the only person who they should go to is Byakuren, who's incredibly skill point hungry.
Mmn, around lv80~100 Byakuren starts being fine enough with innate points, and you only get her at like, what, when you're lv60? Rinnosuke on the other hand needs them basically forever.

It does work well on Byakuren if you're fine with spending a tome of reincarnation on her later, though.

And yeah, sorry, Youmu's hot garbage until you get into plus disk level content. Even then she's still a little questionable until she Awakens, but she gets pretty good abilities at that point. You might consider just using someone else until then.

And you're right in that using Meiling as a tank here is a bit of a waste. She's a godly bulky attacker due to her 32% innate damage reduction passive to pair with her already bulky stats, and Mountain Breaker's damage formula is just obscene. Brilliant Light Gem is still great on spi-weak enemies, especially with it's fabulously low delay.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #683 on: May 12, 2017, 12:06:57 AM »
1) If you want your stuff fully translated, hold off. Most of the plusses to it (hah) are post-game anyway, which is some good time away. It might even get a discount before then, depending on how sales on the site work (idk how they do).
Ok, will do then. I'll have to keep an eye out for that potentially.

2) Youmu in the base game is...um, bad. Yes. The offensive build is flat out worse than every other attacker just about, and the swap tank build is okay enough but Komachi does it better. The plus disc gives her a lot of love, but most of it is at the post-game level and I haven't had a chance to go into it yet. But she's not unusuable, which leads me into point 3.
Yeah, Youmu seems really hurt by the fact that MP actually matters, versus how SP became inconsequential eventually in LoT1. Makes me sad :(
I guess her spellcard stats don't help that fact either.

3) Just use them on whoever you like the most, they let you turn anyone you want into a force to be reckoned with.
But do not feed Rinnosuke the Training Manuals, in your party the only person who they should go to is Byakuren, who's incredibly skill point hungry.
Oh yeah, the sutras are really expensive aren't they? That's an excellent point. I'll give those to her then. Perhaps I'll feed Youmu up to an irrational level and then use reincarnation on her once I begin the postgame. And then bring her back in the Plus Disk if I ever do that (I've heard tell about her desperation strategy that could be fun).

4) Just decide what role you want them to fulfill, and then assign them a subclass and stats based off of that. There's no real need to be anxious as you can change level-up stats and subclasses at will - the only thing you need to be careful about are the items that boost stats or teach skills, as they take a rare and limited item to get back.
Yeah, that's a good point. That does lead into one more question - do you ever reach a point where you can gain more Tomes of Reincarnation? I know they're limited to some extent, but does that change in the plus disk at some point? I'm tempted to dump every training manual into Rinnosuke anyway right now, and then reincarnate them out onto Byakuren later.

Some added notes on this:

Everyone can work as an attacker if you're willing to apply various levels of grinding to them, but don't attempt to make them a support if they aren't already built for it, as almost all of the support subclasses are hot garbage at enabling people who don't already do the role in question to support.

For your current team, you need a tank, and another healer. Just go ahead and slap Komachi on, she works with the rest of your party and she'll tank anything the game has to offer. Go ahead and make her the Strategist instead of Byakuren too, since she'll be in slot 1 on the frontline all the time. This frees you upt o make Byakuren something else ( I recommend monk, more turns = more buffs). For the other healer it's up to you but I'd reccomend Eirin for most fights.

That being said, a world of warning on having a "final team" in this game, at least insofar as boss battles are concerned. Elemental affinities are king in this game, and characters are easily crippled if all of their attacks belong to affinites a boss resists. The game offers ways around this (namely in the form of subclasses), but be warned you have to grind a bit more to compensate for the relatively lower power of said skills.
Yeah, I understand the sentiment regarding "final team". I beat LoT1 (everything except the 30f bosses, too much grinding for my taste), and while I largely kept a core team, I did do a little bit of tinkering around the edges here and there.

Support-wise, yeah, I plan for that to basically 100% be Byakuren/Reimu - there's a lot of characters that seem to be able to be marginally self-reliant on buffs in this game as compared to LoT1 thanks to all the passives, so I don't see much point in passing out weak buff effects when I could just let people do weak buff effects in tandem with doing something else useful (or silly buff effects, Kogasa is so great early at being a rolling ball of death against TRR-weak bosses).

Komachi sounds good - I'll be using her for a while yet anyways to build up her BP for full recruitment, and she's been leaving a very good impression. I've been actually using her to tank some with Rinnosuke with full ATK for level up bonuses, and then throwing my strong elemental resist gear on her for appropriate FOEs / Bosses. I'm unsure if she'll be able to continue fulfilling that role with an ATK build, but we'll see.  :V

On a final note, it seems like a missed opportunity that the Human Village -> Register Party option doesn't store Level Up Bonuses / Skill points spent. I'd love to register a Floor Clearing and a Boss Clearing version of the same party there.

Thanks again for the feedback.  :V

Mmn, around lv80~100 Byakuren starts being fine enough with innate points, and you only get her at like, what, when you're lv60? Rinnosuke on the other hand needs them basically forever.

It does work well on Byakuren if you're fine with spending a tome of reincarnation on her later, though.

And yeah, sorry, Youmu's hot garbage until you get into plus disk level content. Even then she's still a little questionable until she Awakens, but she gets pretty good abilities at that point. You might consider just using someone else until then.

And you're right in that using Meiling as a tank here is a bit of a waste. She's a godly bulky attacker due to her 32% innate damage reduction passive to pair with her already bulky stats, and Mountain Breaker's damage formula is just obscene. Brilliant Light Gem is still great on spi-weak enemies, especially with it's fabulously low delay.
My poor Youmu.  :ohdear:
Maybe I'll make her slot a rotating "character of the day" and let her come back when she's actually more worth using.
I'd be fine with spending a tome of reincarnation, especially if Plus Disk has a way to get more (or make them not matter because you can farm more of what you'd be reincarnating anyways to make it not matter).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 12:08:47 AM by FantomFang »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #684 on: May 12, 2017, 11:09:09 PM »
Hmm, I can't fight Eiki on 13f despite meeting the requirements (beat Glowing Azure Giant, have 72 achievements, Komachi has 1.3K battle points from grinding out the 3K battle achievement). Checked the JP wiki to confirm these are the only requirements. Is there something I could do to fix this?

Ended up being able to fight Eiki after grinding for a couple more achievements, dunno what happened there. But hey, I'll take it. Eiki fight ended up being a lot harder than I thought it would be (though not by too much), thought based on the JP wiki's comments about Spirit Decomposition that I'd need 200 DTH resistance on Tenshi, so I was underprepared for Last Judgement. Thought it'd be fine because the Glowing Azure Giant only hit 1K with Rasetsu Fist on Tenshi and 2K when buffed, but even with 250 SPI resistance and -50% ATK on Eiki, Last Judgement did 9K damage to Tenshi when she had 6K HP after being overhealed. Whoops! Sorely underestimated its strength there. Tenshi was hitting 0s on Eiki with World Creation Press after Concentrate anyway though, Iku was the MVP there.

But that's 13-15f done now! Current average level is 75 (I swear, I was evenly leveled when I entered 13f). I made another team change swapping Cirno out for Minoriko after realizing that, as nice as unresistable SPD debuffs sound, in the first place, how many bosses are immune to SPD debuffs with Reisen's Intense Vertigo? Looking at the main disc bosses, only Memorized Knowledge has debuff resistance greater than 100 in any stat, and that's just for MND (and targeting its MND seems really pointless). While that says nothing for plus disc, I do find it hard to justify using a frontline spot for Cirno instead of Reisen between Intense Vertigo and Discarder targeting all stats and not just SPD. If I'm going to put someone up for debuffing, versatility matters most, I think. Minoriko can heal and buff DEF/MND (and MAG passively) at the same time after Awakening with low delay, so I thought she'd be the most useful character to add. With the way Enhancer works with her post-Awakening skill, she can apply a total of +86% DEF/MND with Owotoshi Harvester, as the Sweet Potato Room effect that follows it applies Enhancer's Heart of Compassion. Pretty good for a 70% delay, and if Tenshi's on tank duty with Iku being the main attacker then there's no waste in not having an ATK buff (besides Enhancer's terrible ATK/MAG buff), so she can act as a viable substitute to Keine, temporarily or otherwise. Everyone besides Tenshi, Eiki, and Kogasa use MAG exclusively to attack anyway.

So far Tenshi's been turning out to be a very viable bulky attacker even pre-Awakening, provided a max ATK build. While she isn't seeing much in the way of taking 0s from attacks, most attacks still do about ~1K to her when she has about 4K HP with a First Aid Kit and an additional 3-4K when overhealed, and she's doing plenty of damage on her own thanks to her synergy skill with Iku. Iku has also been a great bulky attacker, taking damage similar to Tenshi while offering a completely different set of offensive actions, giving a lot of variety between the two of them.  Right now I feel the biggest flaw is lacking in burst damage, instead focusing on dealing consistent damage over time, which makes bosses that heal themselves frequently, power up over time, or have party-wiping Concentrate phases a bit more difficult. But nothing insurmountable or anything.

With enough Stones of Awakening for every character (since I have a party of 10 currently), I've been looking into subclasses more since hitting 13f. Tenshi and Iku clearly need to switch around subclasses a lot depending on whether they're attacking (and how they're attacking) or supporting/tanking, but I think everyone else can comfortably fit one subclass for bosses and one for dungeon exploration (haven't put as much thought into the latter though).

Keine seems best suited as an Enhancer, since she doesn't really do anything besides buff. Dungeon exploration is definitely lacking, since she's got a decent (not amazing, but fairly decent) MAG stat but rather weak spell cards, and most subclass spell cards aren't really any stronger. Dunno what to do with her there, maybe Archmage when I get there.

Kogasa I made a Monk, primarily to reduce delays in attacking. Although the effect is kind of small, Dexterity Training's -10% ATB consumption effect puts A Rainy Night's Ghost Story from 59.5% delay to 63.55%, which is a small improvement. The 4% passive stat buff is nice too. For post-Awakening, I figure she can either rapidly buff herself (for a small amount) by taking turns with Speedy Formation Change after netting a TRR to abuse the 26% HP regen, or slow the loss of buffs if she's already been buffed substantially. Since Kogasa's TRR infliction rate is not particularly good, it seemed to make more sense to focus on increasing how quickly she can take shots at landing a TRR. If nothing else, it means more damage and more MND debuffing, too.

Minoriko, as mentioned above, was made an Enhancer. Nothing else seemed really suitable for her, since her biggest advantage is Owotoshi Harvester's low delay and her passive MAG buff skill. I somewhat want to look at alternative buffing methods like Elementalist, but it would probably be better to just switch her out instead of using something like that. For dungeon exploration, her low MAG stat seems like her biggest handicap, so I think something like Archmage will be most suitable (so that she isn't mono NTR too).

Aya was made a Magician to compensate for her somewhat high MP consumption rate compared to other characters. Usually, she gets off 2-3 times as many spell cards as other characters, and while the cost of Sarutahiko's Guidance is only 3 MP, it does add up when coupled with Divine Grandson's Advent and its 6 MP cost. Magic Transfer seems like a waste, but Magic Circuit has a low delay of 66% and effectively negates its own cost when used on the Magician. Besides that, I didn't really see anything else to do with Aya. For dungeon exploration, I'm thinking of maybe using Warrior to buff Wind God's Fan.

Eirin is a Healer, of course. I don't think any comment is needed there. For dungeon exploration, when she has People of the Moon, I'm thinking maybe Sorcerer or Transcendent. With 3 different elements on multi-target attacks, 50% defense piercing, and an excellent MP count and MAG stat, Eirin seems like a really good random encounter wiping character...but I can't really help but think of her exclusively as a healer.

Reisen's a Magician for MP efficiency, like Aya. Currently, Reisen has about 35 MP with +4 from main equipment and +6 from the Magician subclass, so she can actually start using Grand Patriot's Elixir and still have plenty of MP for Discarder. The +1 MP per turn negates the penalty of People of the Moon when it comes up, so Reisen's MP consumption is pretty stable. Haven't grabbed Magic Circuit, but I'm not really sure that's a good use of Reisen's time anyway...although it would help with long-term debuffing, it wastes time for short-term debuffing. Eirin's overheal roughly triples her HP though, so her durability is not bad at all. For dungeon exploration, I'm thinking maybe Archmage for spell card variety, since Reisen's only multi-target spell card is MYS (well, technically Gas-Woven Orb is NTR, but that's super weak).

Sanae's an Enhancer (that makes the third one). Gives her a stronger, healing Miracle Fruit and a DEF/MND buffing Yasaka's Divine Wind. Not really much else to say on the merits there. Similar to Minoriko, I was tempted to look at something else for Sanae to do. Unlike Minoriko, Sanae has a very good reason to stay in, at least for post-Awakening, due to her MP recovery skill, so maybe going Elementalist or something might actually be worthwhile for her. It'd give her something to do when nobody needs buffing or healing, and the delay on Elementalist buffs is extremely low at 80% so it can help her take turns for MP recovery. Sanae also buffs Sword of Hisou and other SPI attacks, but that's strictly for SPI weak bosses. For dungeon exploration, Sorcerer would buff Moses' Miracle since it's a row attack, so I'm thinking that'd be quite effective.

Iku's currently most commonly used as a Sorcerer right now (for all the MAG buffs and her normal attack buff), but I'm also looking at Strategist for when she's playing support. Since Tenshi or Iku will always be on the field at a given moment (unless they get knocked out), whichever of the two is least useful seems like the most viable option to make a Strategist. Post-Awakening Tenshi would be most appreciative of having a Strategist in the front, since she's very reliant on having all of her stats (besides MAG) buffed, and slowing buff decay is invaluable for that. Besides Sorcerer, I'm also strongly considering Transcendent for the combination of offensive and defensive bonuses it provides. Iku puts all of her stats (besides ATK) to good use, so she seems like a perfect fit for it. Thinking that, for bosses where normal attacks are a better offensive option, Sorcerer would be the best fit, and for WND, Transcendent would be better. For dungeon exploration, Archmage might be the best option for spell card variety, as I do find her only having a WND element MT spell card to be a bit of a handicap. Archmage is somewhat appealing for giving Iku spell cards of other elements to use on bosses too, but with their delays, I think it'd be better to just let another character handle them.

Tenshi's been getting switched around constantly, unlike the other characters. I've had her as a Guardian, Strategist, and Warrior primarily, but of those three, Guardian was simply not paying attention to how it worked exactly. Looking at all the subclasses, I noticed that Guardian is actually rather bad at tanking compared to Transcendent (which isn't available yet) and even somewhat inferior to Strategist. Since Absolute Defensive Line only comes into play when there are less than 4 characters, a Guardian normally only has the -8% damage reduction active and decent stat bonuses to HP/DEF/MND. A Transcendent, on the other hand, has a -10% damage reduction and higher stats in HP/DEF/MND, making it strictly superior for the sole purpose of tanking. Strategist also provides a -10% damage reduction, but to the whole party. It does have lower HP/DEF/MND, but with the lowered buff decay, having a Strategist as the tank actually makes a lot more sense than a Guardian. So that makes Guardian's real advantages lying in Shield Bash's excellent SHK application rate and Efficient Concentration's combo potential with Concentration oriented strategies (or just MP recovery).

So with that aside, Tenshi's mostly being used as a Strategist in the tanking role and a Warrior in an offensive role. Later on, Transcendent (for the same reasons as Iku), Swordmaster and Ninja are intended to be added to subclasses I switch around on Tenshi, depending on what kind of attacks she needs to use. For taking advantage of her Keypoints of Spirit post-Awakening, I'm thinking Transcendent for attacking with NTR and SPI, Warrior for PHY (normal attacks) and FIR, Swordmaster for CLD, and Ninja for DRK. For WND and MYS, Iku handles them better than Tenshi (and there are no ATK based subclass spell cards for MYS anyway), so going Strategist would make more sense, since Iku won't be one. If Tenshi needs to tank regardless of enemy weakness and Iku can't attack the enemy reliably, then another character can handle most of those elements, with PHY and FIR being the most lacking ones (no one has any spell cards of that element in the team at all). PHY feels like the most lacking element, without any spell cards besides Shield Bash (which is really lame as a purely offensive spell card) and nobody that uses ATK and possesses a normal attack buffing skill like Iku, it might not be viable to take advantage of PHY weaknesses at all. Gotta see how well Tenshi's normal attack does against those things. Memorized Knowledge was a thing, but it also has a much easier to exploit DRK weakness (Kogasa did 43K with TRR boosted A Rainy Night's Ghost Story, had 3-4 levels on it though) and merely 100 DEF anyway.

Anyway...for the last three, Eiki, Maribel, and Miko, I figure just make them Transcendents and that's it. Eiki has Majesty and solid overall stats, Maribel can buff all her stats to a great degree, and Miko has her Maintenance equivalent and her 20% buff enhancement/120% buff cap skill, so they all seem like they benefit more from having higher stats than anything else. Maybe something else for dungeon exploring (at least for Eiki and Miko, Maribel has Liberated Abilities so she should be fine with just that), like Archmage for spell card variety. Though, I say "Archmage for spell card variety" for like half these characters. Not much variety if 3/4ths of the party has a CLD or a DRK MT attack. Kind of a problem that there are a lot of MAG focused characters that only have 1 element to use on their MT spell cards (Minoriko, Reisen, Iku, Eiki, and Miko all fit this description).

As a much simpler list, character + subclasses are

Keine / Enhancer
Kogasa / Monk
Minoriko / Enhancer
Aya / Magician
Eirin / Healer
Reisen / Magician
Sanae / Enhancer
Iku / Sorcerer/Strategist/Transcendent
Tenshi / Warrior/Strategist/Transcendent/Swordmaster/Ninja
Eiki / Transcendent
Maribel / Transcendent
Miko / Transcendent

That's what I'm currently thinking about for bosses anyway.

Probably won't update on gameplay progress until Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi fight, which I'd like to record depending on how bad the game lags. Generally plays at about 50 FPS in combat without changing any settings. Hoping to see a substantial enough improvement to record with adequate quality. Action games lose a lot with just a 5 FPS loss, but an RPG should be fine with something like that. If that works out, then I'll probably record Enhanced Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi, Evil Dragon Yamata no Orochi, and probably every boss after that. But that's still a ways away.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #685 on: May 13, 2017, 02:27:09 AM »
Quote
[kogasa] For post-Awakening, I figure she can either rapidly buff herself (for a small amount) by taking turns with Speedy Formation Change after netting a TRR to abuse the 26% HP regen, or slow the loss of buffs if she's already been buffed substantially.
Actually, post-awakening you'd sub Healer to significantly increase her passive heal amount to where it's great for formation spamming even without any TRR present, IMO. You'll run your own buffs down spamming turns even as Monk; it just slows decay... unless your buffs are already concerningly nonexistent. Eventually you'll grab the special class, though, that
Spoiler:
includes Healer's passive turn heal but also passively buffs all stats by 4% for everyone and grants huge increases to the user's affinities, making HP tanking easier, as though her regen wouldn't be enough.
At that point support Kogasa should be pretty silly. Good synergy with other HP tanks too, a lot of people are good at it postgame (Mokou, awakened Minoriko, potentially Byakuren?, etc)

Minoriko probably is best suited to subbing for more support via Herbalist (or Magician, if that's your thing), because she has craaazy MP flow and owotoshi harvester is strong enough without enhancer already. Just having a single target heal and buff gets kiiiiiinda underwhelming when other characters get MT ones... at least until her awakening, but, that's mega late-game and she'll still probably want more to do with all that mp flow. Placebo Effect and Herb of Awakening are really useful skills to have around, because Sanae and Byakuren aren't -always- available to keep buffs up.

...Sanae can be built a lot of ways indeed, though @.@
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #686 on: May 13, 2017, 07:59:27 AM »
Ah yeah, I guess 12% heals on Healer Kogasa turns would be acceptably strong for dealing with MT attacks that don't deal significant damage. Hm, though...I kinda wanna emphasize Kogasa's offensive potential as well...probably will need to mess around with Kogasa to see how she works out post-Awakening. Kogasa's a bit trickier than the other characters since she doesn't do anything unique, but she does offer the strongest MND debuff, good healing if she gets a TRR, and Sheer Force to help with that stuff (and great damage potential assuming TRR). I may just want to use Maribel for MT healing and Reisen for MND debuffing regardless...Sheer Force is a very appealing skill, but I can't really decide what to do with Kogasa. Maybe I should look into a different character...

I haven't really paid too much attention to the
Spoiler:
unimplemented subclasses
since much of plus disc has yet to be added, like
Spoiler:
several floors
, so there's really no telling how long until that stuff will be relevant. Might have like 1-2 bosses left for all anyone knows (besides the game developer). Did go through the trouble of checking up what was datamined yesterday though, took a little while to find that stuff again.
Spoiler:
Dragon God's Power
looks like the most useful of the 1 person subclasses by far. Would really like to use Divine Protection of the Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi, but Tenshi already has a solid SPI attack (although Murakumo's Slash is stronger and has superior delay compared to Sword of Hisou), and while Iku being able to ignore MND completely at -50% MND makes Start of Heavenly Demise look incredibly appealing, it's super inefficient for MP and has horrible delay, so idk...
Spoiler:
*WINNER*
will depend entirely on the numbers, not really sure what I'd do with it.

For Minoriko, yeah, right now she's just kinda...there. I mean, I've only done Yukari and Eiki since making the decision to swap her in, but there's genuinely nothing she does right now that I wouldn't rather use Sanae for. But she does have one of the best max MP totals in the game, an excellent MP recovery, and skills that bolster that, as well as the MAG buffing passive. So maybe having something extra to do would be better...it's just that I'm always running into the problem of "why have x in the frontline instead of y" for so many things. I'm probably sounding really perfectionist, but I would like to figure out the "best" team prioritizing the Hisouten duo. This is the first goal for a video game I've set where I've actually solicited advice and input, so it's like...really complicated, if I can't figure it out by myself.

Honestly, so far the only characters I feel are essential are

-Keine for low cost MT buffs with low delay (Ran has way worse delays and much higher MP costs, and I don't really need everyone to receive buffs)
-Aya for the guaranteed first turn (can either act on her own or switch someone in at 75% ATB), 75% delay SPD buffs, and Divine Grandson's Advent (which I haven't been getting as much mileage on as I'd like due to using mostly lowish delay attacks), plus best SPD in the game by far
-Eirin for ST healing (having a backup healer helps a lot though)
-Reisen for debuffs (I don't really like Hina debuffing the party, Tenshi/Iku at least need strong buffs on them, reducing those buffs is too much trouble)
-Eiki, Maribel, and Miko for their backrow passive bonuses (Maribel also covers healing and is the most valuable of the three)
-Iku and Tenshi (duh)

9/12 party slots. And of those, Miko and Eiki might just be replaceable (especially Eiki) just for their backrow support not being strong enough to justify using and not really doing anything for support that's worth mentioning otherwise. So that's at least 3, up to 5 replaceable slots. Of those, I think Sanae is the most relevant pick, and I certainly have found myself using her a lot, but she isn't essential by any means. Just really good. Kogasa and Minoriko, though...definitely replaceable. But at that point, it's really hard to identify any characters that would be more useful. because there's always negative points or "why do that with them instead of another character". Really tricky to figure out the best route here.

At the very least, I can say that I really do like the basic team concept, it's just optimizing it that's such a headache.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #687 on: May 19, 2017, 10:32:01 AM »
Well I made a thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC-8cpWQcgI

Not really sure about the quality, but I can't really do better. Also, uh...might not be very interesting to watch, idk. This was the first boss I could actually do something like this on, since the 1st phase is really tame. I'm a pretty defensive/patient player so yeah, 17 minute fight. Did several runs to try to optimize the strategy involved, don't think I can improve on it with the current party composition. I'm at brave level (or rather, the average level of the party is 100 not counting the empty slots) and am trying to match hard mode's (level * 1.2) library cap (unless I misread it), but still...the fight seems rather long? I mean it is the final boss, but I'm stuck wondering if I'm doing something wrong. Probably just worrying too much, it's inevitable that something would take a long time with a defensive playstyle, but I wouldn't mind redoing the fight to try alternate strategies. I'm gonna be a nutcase and farm it for stat gems anyway, that was my 7th or 8th kill.

Anyway, any input on the video for future videos would be really appreciated. Like whether or not I should show stats before a fight or put captions to translate dialogue (idk how far the EN patch even is, haven't looked one bit into it), and of course strategies and stuff. I think I'll be making videos of other bosses regularly as a sort of record/discussion thing. Is it normal for almost a week to pass without anyone posting?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #688 on: May 20, 2017, 02:22:34 AM »
 Looks good enough to me (I liked the Kogasa and Iku combo part), I personally prefer when they show the stats, since it gives you a better idea of how strong or difficult the boss is.
 
 Also, I noticed that you had Tenshi switch around your frontline when she had nothing to do to proc Keystone Formation, you may want to include an Instant Attacker in your team for that; You can have Tenshi switch a character out for them, they will immediately get a turn on being switched in, and then you can switch them out for the original character, this allows you to restore the first character's ATB to 7500 (while also giving you the Keystone buff).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #689 on: May 20, 2017, 05:32:58 AM »
Huh hadn't thought of combining Keystone Formation with an Instant Attack character, that sounds like a really good idea, and I kinda do want to swap Minoriko for another character. So of the Instant Attack skill holders in the game...Momiji, Chen, and Mystia...think I'll try Momiji, has a great PHY spell card (best options with current party are Shield Bash and the basic attack), bulky attacker with good SPD and delays, enormous 50% passive bonus to hit, gets +10% SPD per turn, and has a synergy bonus with Aya post-Awakening. Lots of things besides just instant Attack going for her that might come in handy. Now if only I could find an excuse to fit Youmu in, then I'd have all the sword wielding characters in the party.

So I'll swap Minoriko for Momiji and start working on another run where I show stats at the beginning. I think with Momiji in that would make every character fill a valuable niche, feel like that'll be the final revision that needs to be made. Thanks for the input! Also yeah Iku and Kogasa combo really well, I feel dumb for calling Kogasa replaceable a few days ago.

Tangential, but I realized that my worry about the video length was misplaced, it's primarily due to the frame rate being so bad while recording. With a consistent 30-45f throughout in the recorded run, the fight would have taken about 12 minutes if it was running at normal speed, which is still longish, but sensibly so. Think I should probably record at a higher volume too, compared to most other recordings of the game the sound is decidedly much quieter. It'd be bad if it was too loud, but I think I went too far in the other direction.