Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F

[jester147]

So several months ago I've made a spreadsheet calculating WINNER's stats until 100 using the game database, and now decided to make it in Google sheets and expand it to 256 which is the max.

I used the sheets to calculate the defenses I need to survive his attacks, but after analyzing it can't be done in the MND department as his magical attacks all have high MAG multiplier, only affinities will save you.

Here's the sheets for you guys if you want it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jUdJkqq3TO57fHfLxoVEVbni7ToYnpvVPapGC2DMSi8/edit?usp=sharing

On another note I've been wanting to try beating WINNER with teams composed of the main games' featured characters, which are the bosses and the playable characters, including midbosses that appear (like Cirno in Perfect Cherry Blossom). Currently I'm considering EOSD team and the win counter is 2.

[RegalStar]

Damage has a variance to it. It's applied after defense calculations so the "DEF/MND for 0 damage" column doesn't care about it, it does matter for having enough HP to survive his defense ignoring moves. Also Warsmith can potentially hit for higher than 1.2*ATK because he can buff his own ATK (can't do the same for MAG).

[elminster1372]

That's rly helpful, thanks jester147. Also lol at those Sword of Light / Magical Tempest damage scores... I guess I was rly correct in saying you can't do this under level 2000, I imagine^^ (heck, I'm not even sure if it can be done under 3000, given that 255lvl WINNER does over 3 times the dmg of the 117lvl WINNER I'm currently on)

[makyhu]

I have no idea why my saves got corrupted but this is the second time this happened. Last time I had a backup but my most recent save as of right now is right after I beat the main game zzzz

Edit: God bless computer save points

[Nyxnyx]

3peso's twitter stopped posting after 15 march. Let's just hope he's building up a new patch.  :getdown: :getdown: :getdown:

[dawnbomb]

someone needs to send them some tweets asking whats up. we need those big updates :v

[dawnbomb]

dunno if it belongs here but.

does anyone at ALL know how to access the end 'translation files' that the eng patch for laby1 uses? like, to change basically any of the 'english text' that it 'patches in' ?

and second, is it possible that someone who knows the game or worked on its patch, to make the boss rush pull the enemy image from a diffrent image? them using the 'exact same enemy' image but having diffrent resistances/weakness is bothering me for what im working on. worst case will be 'change these files once you beat the main game' but thats....obnoxious X_X

Edit: im gonna guess the 3 .dif files are the actual translation. does anyone know how to open these?

[qazmlpok]

does anyone at ALL know how to access the end 'translation files' that the eng patch for laby1 uses? like, to change basically any of the 'english text' that it 'patches in' ?

Everything is stored in the executable.

Except the images.

and second, is it possible that someone who knows the game or worked on its patch, to make the boss rush pull the enemy image from a diffrent image? them using the 'exact same enemy' image but having diffrent resistances/weakness is bothering me for what im working on. worst case will be 'change these files once you beat the main game' but thats....obnoxious X_X

Possible but annoying.

Edit: im gonna guess the 3 .dif files are the actual translation. does anyone know how to open these?

They are diff files. They contain all of the changes made to the executable and the imgX.dxa files. They're not translations by themselves, which is why it's safe to delete them after running patch.bat

[LonelyGaruga]

Hello. Approximately 4 years ago, I asked for input regarding a Labyrinth of Touhou 1 team I was going to play through the game with. I did not end up actually starting this playthrough due to other priorities at the time, but have still been keeping up with this thread and the Labyrinth of Touhou 2 updates every couple months. Recently, I decided to try Labyrinth of Touhou 2 and worked on constructing a theoretical team for end-game (not NG+, so it'll be a gradual goal). I have only played a little bit to make sure that Plus Disk was in working order, saved properly, didn't crash, etc, so my actual practical experience is nil. Without practical experience, I feel that my ability to accurately construct an end-game team is lacking. That will have to be something that will be worked on as I play through the game, but to begin with, I thought I would ask for input first.

The central idea I had was to build around Tenshi (out of the cast, Tenshi is the Touhou character I've grown to like the most, so this is the most important priority). Based on her skill set, Iku seems like a guaranteed character as well, and both characters would need to be on the frontline at once. Past that, every other character would be playing a supporting role in at least some manner, and I'd like to stick with just 12 characters (at least, once all 12 have been acquired, anyway). I've currently narrowed down the concept team to (in no particular order besides Tenshi/Iku)

Rinnosuke / Keine / Rin / Satori
Eirin / Reisen / Yukari / Eiki
Tenshi / Iku / Maribel / Miko

I'm pretty sure every character can be useful for the concept in some way, but the biggest question I have, and the biggest reason to have stopped me from playing until now (besides prioritizing other things) is the sheer variety of viable characters in the game making picking just 12 such a difficult endeavor, which makes me wonder whether or not I could do better than this. There's also some other questions I have regarding each character individually, and some characters I'm considering using instead of these.

Starting with Tenshi, I see that her role changes after Awakening, going from being (aside from her synergy skill with Iku) a purely defensive character to a character having good offensive presence provided some conditions are met (defensive buffs and being able to strike enemy weakness). The former seems easy enough with State of Enlightenment, provided the demerits are avoided (I'm unsure of the practicality of this due to not being able to find the status application formula, but if it's like LoT1, then it should be fine). The weakness thing seems a little trickier. While subclass spells provide her with a great deal of variety in elements to pick from and some useful passive buffs, I imagine not all bosses have weaknesses in the first place, and nothing can be done about that. So for those fights, the skill is useless. Since both Tenshi's offensive and defensive stats are boosted by striking weakness, it seems like the only other issue there is just maxing it out quickly for the fights it does work in. Beyond that, there's a concern of defense ignoring attacks (mainly the ones that are not intended to be survivable) and bosses that gradually become stronger over time, which counter long-play type styles. I don't think Tenshi can do anything about that stuff, so it would be necessary for the party to be able to make up for that shortcoming. Prior to Awakening, she seems like a pretty simplistic wall, nothing to really question about the usage of.

Since Tenshi receives some good buffs with Iku's presence, I figure Iku is basically a requirement for a Tenshi-centric team. Iku gets nice defensive bonuses with Tenshi's presence as well, so they both seem reasonably durable. Iku's potent offensive buffs seem like she would best fit as a buffing character with a defensive build. When she isn't buffing, she can reduce enemy DEF with her offensive spell cards. Besides that, I don't really see anything to comment about her, it's pretty straightforward and typical usage of her, I'd imagine. Only concern would be just how well she can tank hits and what kind of subclass to use (I have not really put any thought into subclasses for most characters, really).

From there, the rest is kind of just figuring what characters provide the most useful support with their personal skills. Yukari stood out quite strongly with Border of Power and Magic, as it lets Tenshi stack more in a single defense stat and still have the same defense in the other stat as if they were evenly split. This would be more important for Tenshi post-Awakening, due to ATK becoming an important stat. But taking advantage of this strategy would require Yukari on the front all the time for any boss that can target the weaker defense, which can be a severe handicap. Redistributing Tenshi's defenses can help against bosses that only target 1 defensive stat, which can help reduce the need for Yukari at the front, but mixed attackers would still complicate things. Besides Border of Power and Magic, Yukari has IN Quadruple Barrier to put defensive buffs on every character and keep Tenshi's topped without the need for repeated State of Enlightenment usage, and Manipulation of Boundaries applies a DEF debuff to enemies on each turn Yukari takes, which ensures that Yukari can always be useful regardless of the opponent's attack preferences. Besides all that, a defensive build for Yukari seems like the obvious choice.

Maribel, I'm mostly looking at her post-Awakening stuff, specifically Vision Sharing. One of the only bonuses that apply even in the backrow, so even if all that's done with her is maxing her buffs out and sticking her in the back, she can have a useful effect on the whole party (although perhaps it would be better to keep her in front for the full effect). Besides that, she also has Mari's DIY Novice Barrier, which, although I haven't found anything that specifies how the heal is calculated, is allegedly decent from the Wiki's comments on it, and it provides an attack boost. Both are nice effects, and rather importantly, this would be the only multi-target healing spell in the team prior to Rinnosuke's Awakening (which is very low priority). Maribel also has the same Manipulation of Boundaries Yukari has, and Chaotic Quadruple Barrier has a 100% SHK application rate. Somewhat importantly, I don't understand the difference between SHK (and DTH) strengths, if there is any. For other status effects, it indicates a duration, but as an instantaneous effect, I don't really see what SHK (100) and SHK (10000) would mean. I haven't decided what kind of build to use for Maribel, but seeing that Mari's DIY Novice Barrier appears to work off MAG and is not a set % heal, some investment in MAG would be important. Some investment in defensive stats would also probably be a good idea.

The idea I had with Eirin was that she could overheal Tenshi to act as a buffer against defense ignoring attacks (or anything Tenshi doesn't take 0s from really). She would naturally need to have Healer as a subclass, since Tenshi's low max HP makes Hourai Elixir comparatively less useful. Admittedly, that's about all she has going for her that made me think she would be better than other single-target healers, but it could be very useful for every character. I am wondering if there's a cap to how much Healing Touch can overheal a character, since I haven't seen one mentioned by either the EN or JP wiki. It would have a lot of potential to be pretty broken with sufficient investment in Eirin's healing, so I imagine there is one, but isn't mentioned. For her build, I'm thinking investing in MAG enough to get a good overheal, and then the rest in defensive stats. Another thing is that, according to the JP wiki, HVY (which Astronomical Entombing applies at 20000 strength w/ 100% rate) reduces enemy DEF by 50% and SPD by 12%, which sounds way too strong. But also according to the JP wiki's page on status effects, SIL on enemies reduces MND by 50% and MAG by 12%, while I read in this thread that SIL reduces those stats by something like 8% each, which sounds much more realistic. Either way, I think Eirin is useful, if HVY is as strong as the JP wiki says then that's just a really nice bonus.

With Satori, there's naturally her Spell Card Recollection, which would allow doubling up on any support skill from the front (which opens up the possibility of things like using two different buffs from the same character, using buffs a character doesn't have time/MP to spare, extra attempts at Sword of Hisou, etc), but also Trauma Recollection for the +24% damage boost on striking elemental weaknesses. That one will only be really useful for Tenshi post-Awakening, but prior to that, it can still be useful for other characters, and Spell Card Recollection seems like a really versatile skill. My main concern with Satori is whether or not it'll be possible to make as much use of Spell Card Recollection as I think, plus her defenses. While she has excellent HP, her DEF/MND stats are very low, which can be problematic for a defensive strategy.

Reisen seems like the game's best debuffer overall, with Intense Vertigo enabling status application even on a target normally immune to the status, as well as making it easier for every character to apply debuffs, which is very handy when almost every character in the team is capable of debuffing or inflicting status. On top of that, there's Discarder for debuffing every stat, which is probably what Reisen will be doing most of the time. Although not useful to Tenshi, Reisen also packs a strong MND debuff with Lunatic Red Eyes and her passive Broad Mind Modulation, which can help most other characters deal damage, since the non-Tenshi members mostly target MND for their offensive actions. Reisen also has Wavelength of Insanity to reduce MYS damage by up to 30%, but it seems like it would only be useful against a target that uses MYS attacks (almost) exclusively, and I'm unsure of Reisen's own durability, as her defensive stats appear to be fairly average. Don't really know how to build her specifically, she probably wants MAG and defensive I guess.

Eiki I'm a bit more unsure about compared to the others so far (and that goes moreso for each following character). While she has nice debuffing attacks in the form of Trial of the Ten Kings and Wandering Sin, Reisen can already do something similar to the former with Discarder, and the latter appears to be mostly weak status effects. But she can attack alongside Reisen to benefit from Intense Vertigo, so the attacks seem OK...but I can't help but wonder if simply going for Last Judgment would be the superior, if boring, option. Besides that, she has Cleansed Crystal Mirror to provide a 10% elemental damage reduction, which works from the back post-Awakening...but that effect is kind of small. But since it works even in the back post-Awakening, I guess it's worthwhile, and Eiki herself seems like a good character to have on the front until then anyway. Like Reisen, her defensive stats don't really seem that great, but since she has Cleansed Crystal Mirror, she has an innate damage reduction in effect, so I'm thinking she can be built defensively and either use Last Judgment for defense ignoring damage or debuff with her other spell cards.

Miko seems strictly useful for this kind of team only post-Awakening, and even then, I'm not really sure what to do with her. Since Crown Prince's Teachings works in the back, I figure just having her there is enough to be worthwhile (since not many effects work from the back), but if it's not useful enough, then replacing her is probably a good idea. Most of the buffs that the team is capable of applying is only 1-2 stats, and usually in large numbers, so I'm a bit unsure of the usefulness of the skill, but it's hard to find something that's definitely more useful, and something like a Monk subclass for the 4% buff to all stats per turn would benefit greatly from the effect. Miko herself seems like a very strong character, with the ability to increase her buff cap, double the stat bonuses of equipment, and Halo of the Guse Cannon's high power, but none of that helps other characters, and there are a lot of other more useful Awakening skills to be acquired first. Probably the most likely candidate as a secondary attacker, with a bulky MAG build. Her heal seems pretty gimmicky (and it's bugged?), and since it's way weaker than what Eirin can do (and can't overheal) and isn't multi-target like what Maribel can do, I just wrote it off.

Rin is mostly because of Extra Attack and Cat's Walk for multiple SHK attempts, but I'm thinking maybe Yuyuko would be better for damaging a target's ATB. Rin is faster and gets more attempts at inflicting the more potent SHK effect, but only works on SHK-susceptible targets. Yuyuko is slower and doesn't have minimal delays on her ATB reducing attacks, but they cannot be resisted. Between the two, I thought Rin would be more useful due to such a strategy being more valuable against bosses that require their number of actions to be minimized, but depending on how Maribel's 100% rate SHK attack compares to Cat's Walk, Rin may be redundant for SHK. If Maribel is already effective enough, swapping Rin for Aya to get extra turns using Sarutahiko's Guidance may be more effective at ATB reduction than adding Yuyuko. But that relies on the target being susceptible to SHK in the first place, too. Yuyuko would be the only viable character for ATB reduction in that context.

Rinnosuke and Keine are basically there because I couldn't think of any characters that would be more generally useful. Both of them do a lot of small things at once. Rinnosuke has a minor ATK/MAG debuff per turn on enemies, is capable of a small buff to all stats (which pairs well with Miko's Awakening skill, although Rinnosuke's own Awakening pairs well with Miko's Awakening skill too...but having them both is fairly unlikely), and has Effective Formation Change (and seemed like the most useful character with it), plus his Awakening stuff which is just full support. Keine is one of the few characters that has a party-wide ATK/MAG buff, boosts the party's MND every turn she takes, and has a party-wide DEF/MND buff that's weaker but has less delay than IN Quadruple Barrier. Keine also has fairly decent defensive stats and skills, so she can hold her own in that regard as well. The main problem with these two that I have is that everything Rinnosuke does is kind of...small (hard to be sure if he's worth using over other characters), and Keine doesn't really do anything that isn't already done by other characters (although Iku has single target ATK/MAG buffs, not everyone needs them, while Yukari can already buff DEF/MND for the party). Along with Rin, they're the most uncertain and replaceable characters, I think.

That's what I'm thinking for the 12 characters I'm currently planning on using. Some of the other characters that I was thinking about would include

-Kogasa, who seemed like the most useful user of Sheer Force for debuffing and status. If I understand correctly, along with Reisen, a 100 ailment resistance would be 100 * 0.8 (80) with Intense Vertigo, and a further * 0.66 with Sheer Force, which would be 52.8. The main problem I see is the lack of anything especially useful to do with such a thorough reduction in resistance. Kogasa can mainly apply TRR and subclass spells, which are mostly small effects.
-Cirno, for being able to apply some pretty significant SPD debuffs. There are already a few characters that apply SPD debuffs, but they're a lot weaker. This has more to do with those bosses where preventing them from taking turns is a huge priority, but there's also SHK and Yuyuko to do that, so it's questionable Cirno is worth it.
-Aya, who would bring some speed-based options into the party with things like Divine Grandson's Advent and her party-wide speed buff when she takes a turn. Her single target speed buff isn't as useful as it could be when Iku has a stronger one (if the demerits can be avoided), but Divine Grandson's Advent is the only ATB filling spell card that has no real disadvantage and can be very versatile. Probably should replace one of the cast members I was thinking of using, since she does offer something new and useful.
-Sanae, with Miracle Fruit being a fairly potent single target buff for all stats. She has a strong single target heal, but I'd rather have Eirin handle those...so that makes Miracle Fruit the main thing she has going for her.
-Yuyuko, strictly for ATB reduction. I don't think she has anything else really going for her, but guaranteed ATB reduction is a pretty unique and useful effect, enough to be a serious consideration.

Of course, if there's a character that would be recommended for further consideration, that would be a welcome suggestion. Likewise, since I haven't really looked into subclasses much (moreso what to put on a character than what each subclass does, I do know that at least), input on that would be much appreciated.

Since that whole thing was pretty tl;dr, there were some questions I wanted to bring specific focus on.

-Is there a cap on Eirin's Healing Touch? If so, and if the exact number is known, what is it?
-What is the difference between different strengths of SHK and DTH? For example, Rin's Cat's Walk is listed as 10000 SHK, and Maribel's Chaotic Quadruple Barrier is listed as 100 SHK. Why is that?
-The JP wiki lists HVY as a -12% SPD, -50% DEF debuff, and SIL as a -12% MAG, -50% MND debuff (when applied to enemies, that is). Is this information incorrect?

With all that said, thank you for your time reading this excessively wordy, attention demanding, embarrassingly ignorant post. I know it was way more than what the average person writes or asks about here, terribly sorry about that.

[RegalStar]

As far as I know healing touch is only capped by Eirin's capability to heal. The healer subclass's heal did get nerfed by ~40% between the plus disk but she should still be able to at least triple Tenshi's HP with some buffs behind her.

SHK and DTH strength don't matter as far as I know (since they're both instantaneous). I have no idea why it's labelled as 10000 for Cat's Walk.

No idea about exact HVY/SIL, though I'm pretty sure it's way more than 8%.

[Libra]

 I'm currently using Rin and Satori in my current playthrough and I would say Satori is pretty lackluster overall, she can be a decent HP sponge/support with Spellcard Recollection but there are simply better choices; Rin's SHK is not very reliable since the proc chance is low, the number of actual bosses you'll be able to shock-lock or significantly slow down through her Cat's Walk is not big enough to consider using her just for that; she is really good at clearing random encounters with Former Hell's needle Hill (warrior's ATK buff+row spellcard enhance+DEF debuff+buffs from corpse carrier on kill+extra attack), but is usually only so-so in bosses.

 Rinnosuke is decent thanks to low delay spellcards and a bunch of useful passive effects but personally I feel that there are other characters that can buff/heal better than him while being tankier; his main gimmick would be his passive stat increases, with enough investment he can have the highest added stats of any character, but we are talking about absolutely insane amounts of skill points, both main game/plus disc wise.

 Technically speaking, Hina is the game's best debuffer as long as you can avoid Misfortune God's Biorrythm from affecting your own front line, which isn't terribly hard to do, early game you can equip 3 characters with DBF resistance items and only debuff when those characters are out and later Hina can learn her DBF protecting/reducing passive both from her own skillset or from the hexer subclass, this is usually enough to avoid any kind of backlash from using it.

 Reisen is good as a jack-of-all-trades mage, with Grand Patriot's Elixir's buffs she can inflict decent single target dmg with Discarder (while debuffing at the same time) or all target with Lunatic Red Eyes and Mind Starmine; her buffed defenses aren't too bad either and she's pretty quick as well; reducing enemy resistances is also very useful when used in tandem with characters that focus on inflicting them (for example you can put Aya, Reisen and Yuyuko together to form a frontline that can easily inflicting DTH on all enemies before they even get a turn). Her main drawback is MP consumption because she'll constantly be spamming her elixir, she also randomly loses 1 MP on turn because of People of the Moon.

 Yuyuko is a decent tanky mage (Deathly Swallowtail Lance has a pretty good formula), her main weakness is how slow she is, her ATB reducing effects are nice but it's more of an add on than anything else, I would say it's not powerful enough to base her whole role in your party on that.

 Mari has the strongest SHK effect among the cast I believe and it's way easier to lock enemies with her than with Rin (as long as you have someone switching her in and out to quickly refill her ATB), you may consider using Renko if you're going to use her (she's one of the best buffers in the game imo) since  their synergy skill is really powerful.

 Eiki should be mainly used because of the defense ignoring nuke Last Judgement, the rest of her spellcards are usually only good for random encounters.

 Keine is a really good buffer, while she can't buff SPD, she can quickly, and for a low MP cost, constatly buff your party's DEF,MND,ATK and MAG while increasing her own stats to be able to either inflict slight amounts of dmg or become really tanky; she also has some useful passives (particularly the 9999 switch post-awakening).

 Aya is overall a really good support character thanks to her high SPD, the passive SPD buff she applies to the whole frontline and Divine Grandson's Awakening, she's a bit squishy, but has good evade (even moreso post-awakening).

 Cirno is unique in that once she awakens her SPD debuffs can bypass enemy resistances, no matter how immune the enemy is to SPD debuffs, she'll always be able to apply them (albeit at reduced effectiveness), so it can be worth it to bring her along.

 Kogasa, as with all ailment-centric characters, is very good against enemies who she can inflict TRR on (since she gives herself and your frontline some useful bonuses, including healing) but average on enemies that are immune to it, imo subclass ailment inflicting spellcards aren't good enough to bother with them most of the time.

 I would say you don't really need Sanae as long as you have Eirin, one healer should be enough and I wouldn't say Miracle Fruit alone is a valid reason to include her, she does have very useful passives though (TP recovery and MP recovery post-awakening).

 It's worth noting that thanks to Keypoints of Defense, Tenshi can permanently keep a DEF and MND buff on your whole frontline, just have her act as a pure switcher, this allows her to quickly get turns while constantly increasing your party's DEF and MND, even moreso with the Strategist subclass' buff decay reduction, I don't remember the exact number but I'm pretty sure she can keep the whole frontline at about +60% as long as she keeps switching. ( you can speed the process up with someone that can buff your frontline's DEF and MND like Yukari, Reimu or Keine).

 Iku can be a decent Wind elemental magician if you build her offensively, it's mainly useful against enemies who are weak to WND, since her ability to double MND debuffs allows her to inflict large dmg with Elekiter Dragon Palace; you usually want to build her as an Enhancer buffer, where she can buff offensive stats with Thundercloud Stickleback and defensive ones with An Ounce of Prevention, Whiskers of the Dragon God is only useful on characters that are outright immune to the DEF and MND debuffs or that have Flexibility (like Iku herself) since it reverses the effects of DEF and MND debuffs into buffs. There's also the basic attack build that is mentioned on the wiki.

 -Recommendations:
 Kaguya can be good if you plan on using Eirin since their synergy will increase her defenses and her MAG to overheal more, Kaguya is also a pretty  powerful magic glasscannon.

 Mokou can be decent because of synergy with Keinen, her revive gimmick can be useful in certain situations.

 Any of the 3 Devas of Mt Ooe are pretty good since they're both quite tanky and can inflict good physical dmg. On the other hand, if you want magic bruisers, you have Yuuka or Kanako.

 Reimu or Rumia might be good to provide more powerful multi-target healing; Reimu can also buff and increase SPD post-awakening; Rumia is a pretty powerful squishy mage.

 Nitori or Momiji might be good as well since they have synergy with Hina and Aya and are overall really good characters with Nitori being relativelly versatile thanks to Maintenance and Momiji just plain being a pretty good physical bruiser able to take hits and deal some decent dmg back.

[Serela]

Yuyuko is a decent tanky mage (Deathly Swallowtail Lance has a pretty good formula), her main weakness is how slow she is, her ATB reducing effects are nice but it's more of an add on than anything else, I would say it's not powerful enough to base her whole role in your party on that.

 Iku can be a decent Wind elemental magician if you build her offensively, it's mainly useful against enemies who are weak to WND, since her ability to double MND debuffs allows her to inflict large dmg with Elekiter Dragon Palace; you usually want to build her as an Enhancer buffer, where she can buff offensive stats with Thundercloud Stickleback and defensive ones with An Ounce of Prevention, Whiskers of the Dragon God is only useful on characters that are outright immune to the DEF and MND debuffs or that have Flexibility (like Iku herself) since it reverses the effects of DEF and MND debuffs into buffs. There's also the basic attack build that is mentioned on the wiki.

Yuyuko looked really exciting on paper, but in practice I found her a lot less exciting. Her lack of damage increase passives or things along those lines, along with her high cost library, actually makes her damage a lot lower than I thought it would be... even with her seemingly powerful moveset. Every boss I think "great, now to bring Yuyuko out and- oh wow she's actually not very useful in this fight...". As for Iku, she's actually really effective in that normal attack build, imo, and the heavy amount of mnd piercing is sweet (whether normal attacks or not- but she easily gets 90%+ ignore on normals). Since you want her synergy with Tenshi you might want a tankier Iku built for support though? Generally I think support-Iku is actually not worth the awkwardness in LoT2 with all the other options you have for buffing instead, but if you want the Tenshi synergy, it's on the table.

Kogasa is a great SHK option as guardian when you need that for a boss (it's surprising high SHK proc, and then sheer force...) , to help out "but I can't TRR this well" problems- overall she's a little awkward until she Awakens. I think she's got amazing potential as a party regen tank after that, but I can only say so much without real field testing for that, and you can only awaken a few characters until mega-endgame.

[LonelyGaruga]

As far as I know healing touch is only capped by Eirin's capability to heal. The healer subclass's heal did get nerfed by ~40% between the plus disk but she should still be able to at least triple Tenshi's HP with some buffs behind her.

SHK and DTH strength don't matter as far as I know (since they're both instantaneous). I have no idea why it's labelled as 10000 for Cat's Walk.

No idea about exact HVY/SIL, though I'm pretty sure it's way more than 8%.

Ah, thanks, that's good to know. Are the current stats of 60% ATK + 60% MAG on the Wiki page for Healer's Prayer of Recovery the Plus Disk stats then? If so, that seems good enough, especially if it can overheal to that kind of extent. Unless that has more to do with how low Tenshi's max HP is, but either way, it sounds like Eirin would definitely be very helpful to have. The SHK/DTH thing I kinda figured, but wanted to be 100% sure on.

Went back to double check about the SIL thing I read, this is the stat debuff mentioned.

Mystia... I always thought the only truly useful thing she brought to the table was Extra Attack, and somewhat the fact that she gets a 120% chance SIL skill (although SIL is mostly only useful to trigger her stat boost passive and stuff like Final Attack; 5% lower mag/mnd is pretty minor.

It seems weak, but at the same time, the 5% stat debuff that PSN inflicts mentioned in the same post is left unmentioned in the JP wiki, either through omission or because it's unknown, so I can't exactly trust it blindly either. I guess just messing around with HVY and SIL and seeing what kind of numbers result from it would be a good idea, just to be sure.

*Snipped for length*

Sounds like I should skip Rin and Satori then. If Rin isn't worth using for SHK alone, and Maribel does the job fine with support, then another character performing a different role would be more useful. I think I also place too much value on Satori's Trauma Recollection, besides that she wouldn't be adding anything to the team due to only having spell cards other characters use, which isn't bad, but probably would be better to replace her with someone else. Might apply to Rinnosuke as well, in that he may not be justifiable compared to other characters.

Hina does look like a really strong debuffer, but if I'm going to use Reisen, it seems a little redundant to also use Hina, so I'm not sure if she'd be worth using over another character that offers something different. Reisen seems really solid and versatile, especially with Intense Vertigo, so between the two, Reisen seems like the more generally useful.

Based on what's been said about Yuyuko, sounds like I should skip considering her if the ATB reduction isn't as useful as I had initially thought. Something that would be more generally useful and reliable would be preferable then.

Renko seems really difficult to use in combination with Eirin, since Charge would reduce the overheals, so I'm not sure about it. I guess it would be fine if no character is overhealed, but it seems a little complicated nonetheless. Something more versatile may be more useful.

So I should focus more on Last Judgment with Eiki when she's out, and probably keep Keine then. Keine would help make it easier to keep ATK/MAG buffs up without relying on Iku, so there's definitely a useful, distinct role she can play in that regard. Keine's defensive skills look really interesting and useful (especially History Accumulation), it looks like I can expect her to be able to hold her own defensively and as a support character.

I think I'll add Aya into the team then, the speed-oriented support would certainly be valuable. One thing in particular I'm thinking about is that, post-Awakening, for bosses that Tenshi can strike weaknesses on to trigger Keypoints of Spirit, it would probably be ideal to max out her counters as quickly as possible, especially if it's necessary to use a weak subclass spell. Aya would be very helpful for this, in addition to all the general uses speed buffs and extra turns can get. The poor defenses are a bit of a concern, but it's not like any other character can play quite the same role that Aya can.

With the empty slots and the ATB reduction niches being narrowed out, Cirno looks like she'd definitely be more useful than I initially anticipated. Going to have to more seriously consider adding her then, she might be worth the party slot. My main concern is how weak her speed debuffs are on targets immune to them even with her irresistable debuffs. 1/5th of 44% on Icicle Fall is only 8.8% (I assume it's rounded down to 8%?). But stacking that might actually make a big difference, especially if that's the only way to affect the target's ATB.

Kogasa's usefulness seems really difficult to measure, but the full team heal against TRR'd targets is very strong. If nothing else, she's fairly unique, so I'll have to keep her in mind.

Think I'll skip on Sanae then. The other thing that really stood out was that she can buff SPI damage by 30%, and Tenshi's Sword of Hisou is quite strong and SPI element, but I don't think that's quite enough to be worth using either.

Tenshi's Keystone Formation skill looks really valuable pre-Awakening, but post-Awakening, I think it would be better for her to spend her turns either building up Keypoints of Spirit counters on bosses with weaknesses she can hit, or just attacking in general. Since switching rapidly would remove counters and reduce her offensive buffs, it would make taking advantage of her offensive capabilities more difficult. Though, making use of Keystone Formation looks to be the most useful thing she can do prior to Awakening, generally speaking.

Hmm, Enhancer looks like a good subclass for Iku, yeah. With maxed out Enhanced Buffing, that would be 84% ATK/MAG on a maxed out Thundercloud Stickleback, and 48% DEF/MND for An Ounce of Prevention (although, the DEF/MND buffs seems small compared to what Reimu and Yukari can do with their Barrier spell cards). I'm going to have to play around with her and see how durable she is with Tenshi's presence to be able to determine whether she can afford some MAG investment or not. Elekiter Dragon Palace's DEF debuff alone makes it pretty nice looking for when Iku doesn't need to buff, being able to do good damage with it would be very nice. If protecting against the drawback of Whiskers of the Dragon God is unviable for most of the party members, then Aya will be able to perform more of a role than I initially thought, which is good.

Regarding the recommendations, Kaguya's Awakening skill that enables allies to ignore 25% of a target's defense stat looked really interesting, but she seems squishy and doesn't really offer anything else besides personal damage output. There is the synergy skill, but Reisen can do that too, and while it'd be strongest with Kaguya too, I don't think that's enough to be worth the character slot.

Next to Kogasa, Mokou came off as the most useful user of Sheer Force (assuming Awakening though), since she can apply ATK/MAG debuffs. But Reisen can apply debuffs to all stats at a stronger magnitude, along with all the other things she can do, and the rest of Mokou's skills are for herself (besides Blazing), and the way I want to use Keine wouldn't be able to take advantage of the synergy skill, since Keine gets ATK/MAG buffs.

For bulky damage output, I think I'd like to focus more on characters that are capable of dealing in support as well. Of the five mentioned, Suika came off as the most interesting, since she could apply PAR whenever she took a turn and had some decent debuffing attacks (although probably Suika would be doing direct attacks instead). Fog Labyrinth boosting EVA by 20% would also be a uniquely useful support skill, if it weren't for Tenshi having an EVA of 1. It might be helpful for the dodgier characters like Aya though. The rest seem more straightforward in that they mostly support themselves, which I think isn't too helpful for this. Though it would be important if, regardless of preparations taken, the damage output just isn't good enough to beat bosses that strengthen themselves over time or use overkill defense ignoring attacks. I think characters like Iku, Eiki, and Miko might be able to handle this, but if they can't, then a more straightforward damage dealer might be important after all.

I think I'll put Reimu in one of the empty slots taken out so far, she looks really useful. One thing I'm thinking of doing with Reimu in is taking Yukari out, since IN Quadruple Barrier becomes a little redundant, and I think I've overestimated how useful Border of Power and Magic can be. It might be better to just split Tenshi's defenses and not worry about stacking as much ATK as possible. This would allow the most stable defense and allow more versatility. I may be overlooking how useful Yukari's Spiriting Away can be though. It doesn't seem like the kind of spell card you can just use without a goal built around it, and I don't see it being especially useful for this party structure outside of attempting to SHK lock a boss or something (Yukari + Maribel + Aya I guess?). Rumia also looks interesting, her Awakening skill that grants debuffs to Moonlight Ray and Dark Side of the Moon sounds like it has a lot of potential, but without knowing the strength and application rates of the effects, it's hard to ascertain the value properly, so I don't know if she'd be a good fit or not.

Lastly, Nitori and Momiji...I don't think they really offer anything new in particular, besides Nitori's Super Scope 3D being much more damaging than what any of the other characters are capable of. Since the synergy skill only works on the front, and I'd prefer to have Tenshi and Iku in the front as much as possible, that leaves only 1 other slot if Aya's up. If I were to take advantage of the skill, having just 1 of the other members would probably be best. Of the three other characters in the synergy, Hina seems like the most useful. Having Aya grant Hina extra turns to rapidly debuff a target doesn't seem like a bad idea actually, provided that it doesn't have 100 in anything (otherwise Reisen would be more useful)...which sounds really unlikely, actually...

Yuyuko looked really exciting on paper, but in practice I found her a lot less exciting. Her lack of damage increase passives or things along those lines, along with her high cost library, actually makes her damage a lot lower than I thought it would be... even with her seemingly powerful moveset. Every boss I think "great, now to bring Yuyuko out and- oh wow she's actually not very useful in this fight...". As for Iku, she's actually really effective in that normal attack build, imo, and the heavy amount of mnd piercing is sweet (whether normal attacks or not- but she easily gets 90%+ ignore on normals). Since you want her synergy with Tenshi you might want a tankier Iku built for support though? Generally I think support-Iku is actually not worth the awkwardness in LoT2 with all the other options you have for buffing instead, but if you want the Tenshi synergy, it's on the table.

Kogasa is a great SHK option as guardian when you need that for a boss (it's surprising high SHK proc, and then sheer force...) , to help out "but I can't TRR this well" problems- overall she's a little awkward until she Awakens. I think she's got amazing potential as a party regen tank after that, but I can only say so much without real field testing for that, and you can only awaken a few characters until mega-endgame.

By the sounds of it, instead of having Iku as support with Thundercloud Stickleback, it would be better to have her play as a bulky attacker and have a different character like Keine handle ATK/MAG buffing, except for characters that can or have to resist the PAR effect. Tenshi's State of Enlightenment has a 96% PAR rate at level 5, so that probably warrants PAR resistant equipment, at least for post-Awakening. Actually, having Iku as a bulky attacker sounds like a better idea in general to be honest, and certainly more interesting than pure support.

Shield Bash + Sheer Force does look like it has a lot of potential for SHK shenanigans, that seems to be the most useful thing for status that Sheer Force brings to the table. Between that and the TRR stuff Kogasa brings, she looks like she could be really interesting, plus all the skills that benefit her personally. Astonishing Ghost Umbrella in particular is amazing defensively, with that -40% damage reduction against TRR'd enemies. When I first read the skill's effect I misunderstood it to work on everyone, not just Kogasa.

--

So looking over everything, from the original team I had in mind,

Rinnosuke / Keine / Rin / Satori
Eirin / Reisen / Yukari / Eiki
Tenshi / Iku / Maribel / Miko

Remove Rin, Rinnosuke, Satori, and Yukari (-4)
Add Reimu and Aya (+2)

Then from there, the most interesting characters so far are

Cirno (SPD debuffs)
Kogasa (TRR, Sheer Force, HP regen every turn)
Suika (60% PAR attempt every turn, passive EVA buff)
Rumia (post-Awakening status and debuffs, party-wide heal)

Of those...Cirno and Kogasa seem like they might be most useful. Besides the option of Shield Bash backed by Sheer Force, if Kogasa can TRR something post-Awakening, that's a huge HP regen every turn, and Cirno provides a way to slow down bosses that are immune to SHK, probably better for this than Yuyuko is. These are more specialized uses, but I think general use has already been accounted for well enough.

That's what I'm currently thinking of, anyway, might need to make further revisions. Thanks for all the input so far, it's been very helpful!

[RegalStar]

The 60%(ATK+MAG) is the older formula. The new one is close to around 35% from my limited observations.

[MadokaMagica]

Question: if the rest of the content for the Plus Disk hasn't been released yet, does that mean there are still characters who haven't been added yet or is this an exhaustive list of all the Plus Disk characters: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Characters_7 ?

[RegalStar]

Right now it's exhaustive, though I haven't gotten around to add awakening skills for them yet.

[Serela]

It's pretty safe to say there won't be any more character additions, imo. The last one is already recruited after beating the final plot boss of Plus Disk and screams goofy postgame bonus character, and the characters have always been in sets of 8.

Oh, I should add in the portraits for the last few characters on the wiki, I'd honestly kind of forgotten after the patch never ended up coming out. Thanks for the doing the last few characters, RegalStar!

[elminster1372]

Quick question - how much is item drop rate important in the Plus Disk? I'm asking this because I'm considering whether I should employ the Youkai Mountain Alliance (Nitori, Momiji, Aya, Hina) or not, primarily because of Nitori's massive bonus to item drop rates (I know Nazrin, Rinnosuke, and Shou all give similar boosts, but they're nowhere as powerful or usable I believe)

My doubts raise from the consideration that, while item drop rate is not that big of a deal in Touhou Labyrinth 2 pre-Plus Disk (with exp and gems being the primary means to level up, and item drops only granting a negligible boost to earned money), in TH1 item drops were much more important (most of the skill points you get while training from WINNER come from Machine God Lucifer drops).

Now, unless the Plus Disk changed mechanics somehow, in TH2 the sell price of items does not ramp up like in TH1, and from what I understand the gem system in the Eternal Corridor does not depend on item droprates... but maybe I'm missing some way in which item drop may be relevant? Please note that for my the answer to my question I'm solely concerned with the actual end-game - even if mobs on Plus Disk floors can drop powerful items, as long as this is not something which eventually matters in the Eternal Corridor (which I take it's this game's equivalent to WINNER in TH1) I don't really care.

Thank you for your concern.

[Serela]

Nitori's item drop boost is fairly significant, but Nazrin's is no joke either considering it DOESN'T get weaker in the back (where Nitori's is completely disabled) along with her double drop attack, and if you do employ Shou she's got pretty hefty bonuses as well post-awakening (+15% drops in addition to +40% on treasure gun kills). Nitori does win out on ease of use though; you really don't need the Alliance for her to be a wonderful team addition, and she's got a heavy nuke for the kill. Meanwhile Shou is kind of bad until she Awakens (not that Nitori has -any- drop increase until then...) and still kind of wants several other people in your team for hefty synergy bonuses. (Her new Awakening skill that got patched in later helps with her attack power by starting her with Rage counts, at least. Inconsistent, but helpful.)

Although amusingly, I realize all the people Shou synergizes with are the people with drop rate bonuses.

By the way, people won't -really- be able to answer your question because the corridor currently ends at ~100f out of 999 floors, and the several postgame Plus Disk floors are all also unimplemented. But it's pretty safe to guess there's sweet drops on the last floors like there usually is. Some of the later floors already have enemies dropping gems for... I think hp/mp/tp? At least two out of three. The drop rate isn't even abysmal.

[elminster1372]

Are these hp/mp/tp etc. gems only needed in limited quantity, like the gems pre-plus-disc, or the more the better? Because if so, it would appear that a proper endgame party has little reason not to include as many item drop boosters as possible (perhaps even going for the full Rinnosuke/Nazrin/Nitori/Shou "playset"). It sorta saddens me, because I'd have to give up one of Reimu/Byakuren/Sanae/Renko/Maribel/Miko/Yuuka/Kanako/Suwako, and they all are awesome one way or the other...



So, let's see... as far as I can tell, these are each character's item drop ability:

Rinnosuke:
Gensokyo's Shopkeeper    10    1    Increase item drop rate by (SLv * 4)%. Only works if he's in the party. Effect is reduced if Rinnosuke is in the back row.

Nitori:
(Awakening only) Kappa's Material Aesthetica    1    75    If the user is in the front at the end of battle, increase item drop rate by 20%. Additionally, if the user defeats an enemy, that enemy's item drop rate is increased by 40%.

Nazrin:
Rare Metal Detector    3    Enemy (One)    Wind    196% MAG - 70% T.MND    If this spellcard defeats an enemy,
its item drop rate is doubled    68%    Low delay
Dowsing    1    12    Increases item drop rates by 20%.

Shou:
Radiant Treasure Gun    5    Enemy (All)    Spirit    140% ATK(?) - 70% T.DEF(?)    ACC +4
Increase EXP/Drop/Gold    44%    1.25x Bonus on Kill


Rinnosuke is by far the best, since it gives a 40% boost regardless of who kills the enemies and, as you noted, it still gives a 20% boost even from the backlines. Now, out of the other three... only Nitori and Nazrin give a passive boost like Rinnosuke, though it's only 20% (does Nazrin's boost work from the backlines? It doesn't say but it'd be pretty important to know). Shou has Radiant Treasure Gun, which is also good on its own, but you must choose between that and Rare Metal Detector, which while only hitting one target, gives a much bigger item drop boost and can be "chained" if it's a OHKO.

All in all, I'd say that Shou is the one to drop here, because if you're killing enemies with Nazrin, then Shou gives basically no item drop boost whatsoever. And by using Rinnosuke/Nitori/Nazrin together, you can reach a massive 80% item drop boost (180% if Nazrin does the kill, 100% if Nitori does the kill). Ofc they are somewhat lacking in power, but eventually you should get to the point where the "training fodder" dies to just about anything you do, like in TH1 (For a comparison, in my TH1 run, I can now 2-shot Serpent of Chaos with an unboosted Lavatein, almost 100% of the time). There's always the issue that you first need to get to that level, first (which involves awakening Nitori, too), but until then, you can still rely on Rinnosuke's boost (and maybe Nazrin's too?) working from the backlines as well, while the Moriya family or the Sealing Club duo mow down random encounters until the item finders can take them on themselves.

[Serela]

You missed Shou's passive; it gives 10% item drop boost. Awakening boosts it to 15%. Awakening also boosts Treasure Gun to 40% on kill instead of 25%. Shou also has good synergies with Rinno/Nazrin, the other drop boosters. However, Shou isn't terribly useful until post-awakening. Nazrin's awakening literally doubles her damage (and she needs it) so she's sorta also in there, and then Nitori has -no- boost until awakening... party design is hard.

Gems are still limited to 10. There's "orbs" to go from 10 to 20, but those aren't the drop.

[LonelyGaruga]

Hi, I have another question. Regarding Rumia's Awakening skill that grants Moonlight Ray and Dark Side of the Moon the ability to apply all status/debuffs respectively, are the strengths of these effects and the % rate that they're applied known?

[elminster1372]

Yeah I missed Ability to Gather Treasures... Well, then it would appear Nitori has to go, since while Nitori gives +20% Item drop instead of +15%, Shou also gives a boost to Exp and gold. On the other hand, though, if the best items are still obtained through infinity gems, and if infinity gems only drop from chests and not enemies, then an increased drop chance is not that important in the long run... right? (Maybe one could keep Shou alone, for the xp and gold boost from Treasure Gun, but the other three can go)

EDIT: Also I think somebody mentioned it some months ago but... how to get Japanese characters to appear in-game? I only see little squares, as if I lacked the proper font...

[Serela]

I'm assuming you're running jp locale already? I dunno, as I don't have the problem. I'm in win7 running in jp locale.

No one can say about items, since we don't know what the last few non-infinite floors will have. It's possible. I can't imagine the final floor drops not being sort of like Thlaby1's though. The infinite shop does have good gear and the chests can certainly drop it too, but it's likely mostly on the same level, apart from the obvious god-grade equips that take a bajillion seven star dust.

[elminster1372]

So basically, everytime I play TH2 Plus I have to switch to JP locale? I can't keep JP for it and Eng for the rest of Windows? That's a bit annoying but ok^^

As for items, I guess that since unlike TH1 we have Tomes of Reincarnation, here, the problem is not especially pressing. For now, I think the best thing to do is just to build a solid all around group of pre-Plus Disk characters, and then replace whatever I need as I progress through.

[Serela]

I mean, I just leave jp locale on and I next to never see a jp symbol anywhere else in windows. It's not really a problem.

It's not as though it's set to your main windows function and all your windows programs turn japanese, if you were worried about that.

[nyttyn]

http://pooi.moe/Locale-Emulator/

Just use this. It lets you right click and run things as any number of locales, including Japanese, without having to change your computer's locale every time you want to run a game in JP. This is a preferable solution as otherwise several installers from big name companies will default to japanese, which is a huge pain in the ass.

[elminster1372]

Thank you for your help - turned out that just changing to Jp locale was enough :-)

Now to grind back to the final boss (I decided to start over because I spent too many Tomes of Reincarnation in the previous save), with the following team:

Renko/Yuuka/Alice/Maribel
Sanae/Reimu/Suwako/Kanako
Ran/Yukari/Marisa/Chen

Seems to go well so far, I'll see if there are any Plus Disk characters to replace the ones I'm using atm (maybe Miko, almost surely Shou eventually, but we'll see). For now, I wanted primarily a team which can clean up random encounters well enough, while not being a sitting duck against bosses - though the Renko/Yuuka/Alice/Maribel lineup is not as efficient as the other two in terms of clearing randoms, it's possibly the best of the three in terms of boss clearing (especially Renko/Yuuka/Maribel). As far as subclasses I was thinking of the following:

Line 1
Renko: Strategist (To make Charge, Majesty, and Overflowing Unnatural Power last longer, as well as general buffing for line 1)
Yuuka: Sorcerer -> Archmage -> WINNER (To abuse Yuuka's superb mixed offenses, and give her more diversity in terms of offensive spells)
Alice: Sorcerer (To increase Alice's magic power, as well as powering up Hanged Hourai Doll)
Maribel: Sorcerer (To increase Maribel's magical power - still a bit undecided between Sorc and Transcendent on Mari, since she lacks good row attacks anyho, I'm also considering Toxicologist for some bosses, to synergize with Chaotic Quadruple Border and Renko's ailment protection abilities)

Line 2
Sanae: Enhancer -> Elementalist (CLD/SPI buff works well with Reimu, Kanako, and Sanae. NAT/PHY works with Suwako. Not fully sure about this one, will need to test)
Reimu: Strategist (To make Sanae's buffs and Kanako's majesty last longer)
Suwako: Transcendent -> Murakumo (To give Suwako strong SPI attacks which abuse her mixed offenses and Sanae's Power of the Living God - Also, Suwako's low HP and Line 2's healing potential [especially Sanae's MP recovery when awakened] works well with Murakumo's draining)
Kanako: Sorcerer (To power up Kanako's magical power)

Line 3
Ran: Strategist (To buff up Line 3's buffs and damage output/resistance)
Yukari: Transcendent (To buff up both Yukari's damage output and overall decent bulk - might consider Sorcerer too)
Marisa: Sorcerer -> Archmage (To give Marisa some diversity in offenses, though Toxicologist or Hexer to abuse Sheer Force might be an option worth testing)
Chen: Monk -> Dragon God (To abuse Chen's high speed and low delay attacks)

Thoughts, anyone?^^

[nyttyn]

Getting into LoT1 now and...

ow. Chen. Just...ow. Chen.

She nearly slaughtered my entire party even with Meiling on my side ;-; only marisa survived.

[elminster1372]

LoT1 is much more brutal than LoT2 in many ways :-) have fun!