Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F  (Read 186894 times)

RegalStar

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2016, 09:28:33 PM »
Shou:
Hungry Tiger: 225-75
Radiant Treasure Gun: 140-70
Dazzling Gold: 117.76(ATK+MAG)-32

Futo:
Mononobe's Eighty Sake Cups: 196-70
Gate Opening for Catastrophe: 243.36-78
Miwa Plate Storm: 156-65
Taiyi True Fire: 240-100

Are any of these plus disk characters worth anything? They all look more gimmicky than useful. Futo seems the most useful of the bunch (mainly that source of 40% DR), but she probably needs Miko as well to function decently.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2016, 09:51:08 PM »
Mamizou can always hit weakness by using her normal attack to alter element (and her normal attack is only like 8600 delay and can be empowered if you choose Sorc, so it's not a waste of time- lasts the whole boss fight) and she's got high HP to take some hits when she comes out, so she seems fine to me, albiet not particularly exciting. Futo's plate break passives give VERY powerful effects and Gate Opening for Catastrophe seems pretty good, with decent alternative attacks for resistant bosses.

When you consider the huge bonuses to offense and/or defense Futo can get ontop of her base move power, she starts looking pretty nice, albiet reliant on getting her counter up- the 40% reduction is pretty stable though. And Miko sounded outright OP, so it's a good character to have a synergy with.

Shou... eh... she relies entirely on having synergies :/ They're pretty strong synergies (Byakuren's Sutras, +24% Atk/Mag and/or Def/Mnd with rinno/nazrin). Might be useful with them up? I wouldn't use her. Her base stats are pretty solid though (Very bulky), so with her synergies, maybe she can get somewhere... it feels like there's probably better options though.  If you can keep her in the front alive long enough, Bishamonten's Rage counter doesn't seem to have a limit, so there might be some potential there? (Marisa's is easier to make use of though...) And Light of Dharma is a decent passive. She just doesn't have very compelling skills to use or all that much base attack unless Rinnosuke is out. Eh.

As for the unreleased ones (other than Miko), Tokiko is... huh. She has a large variety of mildly nice effects, but do they build up into enough to use a character off of? Maybe??? And Koishi's skillset mostly revolved around Evasion, without any particularly nice passives or attacks... her main highlight is just that she makes the Earth Spirits family skill look really strong at +24% all base stats with NO extra members on front, just from Proof of Kinship from the corridor.

It's worth considering we have no idea what any of the plus disk characters get for Infinite Corridor skills, though, especially notable considering they'll get them not that long after they're recruitable... or in 4~5 of their cases, -before- they're recruitable, it seems >.>

« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 09:53:14 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2016, 11:21:15 PM »
I just looked it up and they were in the rev.C text dump. I didn't list them at first because I was reading off a hacked save instead, but here they are now:

Spoiler:
True Bishamonten's Rage
When skill holder moves to the back row, Bishamonten's Wrath counter will not decrease.

Bake-Tanuki's Wisdom
When skill holder performs a normal attack, increase Bake-Tankui's Wisdom counter by 1.
This effect increases damage by (Bake-tanuki's Wisdom counter*8)%,
and reduces damage by (Bake-tanuki's Wisdom counter*4)%.
The counter will be removed if the skill holder moves to the back, and has a cap of 5.

Seeking the Dragon in its Cave (this apparently is the name of a dungeon or mission or something in Genso Wanderer. It's a translated game but I can't find any info on its English names as such, so someone has to fill in here)
When the skill holder has learned both "Ritual Plate Offering to Mikoto Nigihayahi" and
"Ritual Plate Offering to Okami Omononushi", both skills will take effect.

[I think there's a missing name here. It definitely looks like Miko's skill]
When the skill holder is in the front, all other frontlines receive 16% more benefit from buffs.
When the skill holder is in the back, all frontliners receive 8% more benefit from buffs.

Embryo's Dream
When evading an attack, increase "Embryo's Dream" counter by 1 33% of the time.
When attacking, using a spell, or using concentrate while Embryo's Dream counter is present,
reduce the counter by 1 and repeat the action. This will use MP as normal, and won't activate if the user doesn't have enough MP.

Super-responsive Senses +
When Super-responsive Senses activate, action gauge is increased by 10000 instead.

Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks
Reduce Emotion Mask's debuff aspect on allies by half.
If Power of the Emotion Mask Creator also activates,
allies will suffer no debuff from Emotion Mask instead.

Tokiko's Humane Reading Fist (alt. Tokiko Ujou Dokushuu Ken)
If the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", increase DEF and MND by 25%.
If the skill holder is not under the effect of "Reading", increase ATK and MAG by 25%.

Akyuu Libra
Allows the exact details of enemies' elemental and status defense to be seen in battle.

Koishi looks actually pretty fun now. I was expecting a counter-based skillset but an evasion-based is fine too I guess.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2016, 11:32:15 PM »
Kokoro becomes less awkward to use (oo), Shou's true potential as a bulky attacker surfaces (Although it relies on the battle lasting long enough for the counter to reach a meaningful height...), Futo becomes REALLY GOOD, Miko is still ridiculous, Tokiko becomes notably better even if I'm still not sure if she's worth using or not... well, she looks like she does have potential now to be a worthy character. And Koishi finally gets evasion skills that actually look like they might be interesting to have. Ontop of "evading an attack sets ATB to 10000" on that inf. corridor skill and an occasional double attack, in her original skills any all-target attack to the party increases her EVA by 16%(?) along with her def/mnd and her eva goes up 10% each time she gets hit, so she might work out after all, especially if in a full earth spirits party.

And the final character is for ultimate wiki building power. :V

edit:Okay, if Futo's gonna get that, and I'm already probably using Miko because too good not to, I think I can deal with having to kick out Yuyuko or Shikieiki to cram Futo into my final party... or at least, I'll try it out. (Oh wait, looking at this... I have to kick -both- out. AUGH. I'll try it out when the time comes. I'm okay with this.)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 12:03:23 AM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2016, 06:16:47 AM »
A question. Is Main Character - Marisa still bugged, and if so, does the jp wiki know about it?

Also, I remember that Mystia's Mysterious Song is meant to heal HP when it cures certain status ailments. Is it still supposed to heal HP upon curing ailments but isn't due to a bug? And again, does the jp wiki know about it?

There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2016, 11:44:18 AM »
A question. Is Main Character - Marisa still bugged, and if so, does the jp wiki know about it?

Also, I remember that Mystia's Mysterious Song is meant to heal HP when it cures certain status ailments. Is it still supposed to heal HP upon curing ailments but isn't due to a bug? And again, does the jp wiki know about it?

No to all of them. EDIT: The MP restore aspect of Main Character Marisa still works, but not the stat buffing aspect.

I reported these on twitter as well.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 12:16:36 PM by RegalStar »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2016, 01:35:32 PM »
Mystia... I always thought the only truly useful thing she brought to the table was Extra Attack, and somewhat the fact that she gets a 120% chance SIL skill (although SIL is mostly only useful to trigger her stat boost passive and stuff like Final Attack; 5% lower mag/mnd is pretty minor. On the upside, it's also one of the least resisted status effects on bosses.) But I suppose once you've got All By Myself (or proof of kinship) and second boosts are available, her just-below-enough stats can all be boosted up to workable levels for a bulky attacker, with Instant Attack making her shine. Even then though, there's "Why not just use Momiji?" (unless you really are using cirno+rumia, which is a reasonable suggestion; rumia kicks butt and Cirno's got irresistable SIL and also fixable defenses. If you have both of those, even Wriggle starts becoming a good tank choice.)

Well, it's really party specific, but with Renko/Aya/Koishi having crazy eva potential in postgame, and Alice getting in there too, I suppose that Mystia's corridor skill "every frontline evasion debuffs all enemy stats" might come in handy. If resistant enemies won't stop buffing themselves, hum.

It really is sort of a chain reaction... Rumia is great, Cirno has considerable options, both makes Mystia viable which makes Cirno more viable, and at this point you can throw in Wriggle and make them -all- look even nicer, and with Wriggle able to stay out and tank she's got better chances of landing Poison and boosting all her own stats and reaping her corridor +25% def/mnd to make her actually a super-wall tank, boosted by her Poison Touch now functioning, etc.

...it's not obvious, but worth reminding that Poison reduces all stats (by 5%?) in Labyrinth 2, which makes Wriggle a slightly more appealing tank option as well. If bosses just stop all being like, star resist grade resistant to it. :T Wriggle is only decent in a full 9 team when that happens, and every single one of her passives becomes irrelevant except for boosting the other team 9 members.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 01:44:33 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Validon98

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2016, 03:09:18 PM »
I dunno if I've said it before, but Team 9 is one of my favorite synergy runs, I've ran it twice and have completely wiped the postgame with them, so I'm looking forward to see how that works come Plus Disk. Reminds me I ought to get my second Team 9 run through postgame to get that ready for Plus Disk (on top of the regular run I'm doing also for Plus Disk).

Hmm... I honestly want to do a fixed party run for LoT2 too, but I dunno if I should do that instead of the normal run I'm doing. Though I'd find that more fun in my opinion, so I think I might random up a party based on roles like I did with my LoT1 run I did (that or a pure random run, that might be a little more fun). Actually I'll go random up a pure random run and post it here, I'm more interested in that than my regular run honestly.

EDIT: OH BOY

Quote
Alice
Wriggle
Remilia
Momiji
Kogasa
Ran
Nitori Mystia
Hina
Patchouli
Mokou
Utsuho
Yuuka

Personally I don't want Nitori just because she's busted, so I might replace her with someone else, Hina is pretty powerful too but she requires a bit more setup so eeeh she's fine.

EDIT2: Rerolled Nitori and got Mystia, this is fine. The only problem I see with this party is there's a severe lack of healing, so thaaat's going to be a problem.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 03:32:34 PM by Validon98 »
Derping at Touhou since June 2012, derping at RPing Touhou since Feburary 2013.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2016, 03:18:40 PM »
Since no one answered my question earlier about using multiple Genji Gloves to increase the chances of it working, I took it upon myself to do some tests after finally having successfully farmed 3 Genji Gloves.

Tests were done with level 1 aya with 0 bonus stats to attack apart from the genji gloves equipped and other sub equipments used to keep her overall attack around the same between each test (No library/level up stats went to attack). Monsters used were Small Kedama, Kedama and Nut eater from 1F to minimize enemy defense differences. Also only Aya's normal attack was used.

With 1 Genji Glove equipped, only 4 out of 100 normal attacks did 2x damage
         2 Genji Gloves equipped, only 6 out of 100 normal attacks did 2x damage
         3 Genji Gloves equipped, only 5 out of 100 normal attacks did 2x damage

Thus, I think it's safe to assume multiple Genji gloves won't affect the 2x chance.

One thing that was irregular was that even with 1 Genji Glove, rather than just doing 2x damage, I would be doing roughly 3x the normal damage. For instance against Small kedamas, with an average of 250-275 damage on a normal attack, with 2x I'd be doing roughly 800 instead of 500. Same thing happened when equipping 2 Genji Glove and 3 Genji Gloves. Not sure if this is a bug or that when I happened to activate the 2x damage, my normal attack also hit extremely high or something. If someone else wants to confirm or disprove this, feel free to.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2016, 03:22:31 PM »
Yeah Genji Glove does 3x damage instead of 2x. It's a bug that's listed on atwiki too.

Re:Wriggle, well from the ailment resist stats I've noted, only Shadow Parsee has star resist in PSN (and everything else actually), though single circle resist is remarkably common and I don't know if Wriggle is up for dealing with that (without Intense Vertigo).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 03:41:20 PM by RegalStar »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2016, 04:13:27 PM »
Wriggle has 112% rate Poison with maxed comet on earth, so single circle... probably isn't so bad? Plus she can actually use her Poison Touch now without it murdering her atb. Might work pretty well! I don't know how high circle resist actually is though. Once corridor kicks in, her defenses will raise significantly, making it easier to stay in for Poison Touch and keep on poisoning.

@Validon, I don't know if you've seen my earlier comments, but once Koishi is recruiting the Earth Spirits team synergy is as strong as Team 9, not to mention all team synergies are notably buffed with Proof of Kinship causing half activation from backrow characters. An interesting situation. That'll also make Team 9 more effective in tandem with the ability to buff up their low base stats via all the new stat increase methods.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2016, 08:01:23 PM »
Mystia... I always thought the only truly useful thing she brought to the table was Extra Attack, and somewhat the fact that she gets a 120% chance SIL skill (although SIL is mostly only useful to trigger her stat boost passive and stuff like Final Attack; 5% lower mag/mnd is pretty minor. On the upside, it's also one of the least resisted status effects on bosses.) But I suppose once you've got All By Myself (or proof of kinship) and second boosts are available, her just-below-enough stats can all be boosted up to workable levels for a bulky attacker, with Instant Attack making her shine. Even then though, there's "Why not just use Momiji?" (unless you really are using cirno+rumia, which is a reasonable suggestion; rumia kicks butt and Cirno's got irresistable SIL and also fixable defenses. If you have both of those, even Wriggle starts becoming a good tank choice.)

Cirno having irresistible SIL? Since when does Cirno inflict SIL? Irresistable speed debuffs, yes, but not SIL.

And personally, I wish that Mystia's MP restoring skill could be leveled up to 2 instead of 1, so she could restore 2 MP to the front line via Concentrate. It wouldn't change much about her, but it would grant her more utility as a psuedo-Magician, at least.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2016, 08:19:46 PM »
whoops mixed up the terms :V

And that would make her concentrate actually worth investing into, e.g. guardian. For most of the game at least -endgame if you want that you have to go for, like, Sanae, who passively regens the entire front row's mp every turn she takes, apparently. 1mp is... a decent thing on the side I guess, and it helps if you just need THAT ONE MORE MP TO CAST SOMETHING, but generally it's too much time for too little result to care- especially as Mystia has no business sitting around the front concentrating with her low durability.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Kirin no Sora

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  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2016, 08:48:30 PM »
And that would make her concentrate actually worth investing into, e.g. guardian. For most of the game at least -endgame if you want that you have to go for, like, Sanae, who passively regens the entire front row's mp every turn she takes, apparently. 1mp is... a decent thing on the side I guess, and it helps if you just need THAT ONE MORE MP TO CAST SOMETHING, but generally it's too much time for too little result to care- especially as Mystia has no business sitting around the front concentrating with her low durability.

True, and I'm honestly surprised that that would make a difference up until end game.

On a related note, I have also wondered why Magician doesn't have Efficient Concentration as well? It would very much play into the whole "mana battery" thing, since reducing the time spent after a Concentrate would help in gaining more MP to use more quickly for everyone.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2016, 09:01:16 PM »
It would make sense, yeah, and give an alternative to guardian for people with Grand Incantation or the rare other couple concentration buffs. I'd like Magic Circuit on a support character and efficient concentration would be nice. But I can understand it's guardian's thing.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

jaxter0987

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2016, 09:51:29 AM »
So I missed my chance to chime in on stuff, and Serela raised some points that I wanted to talk about so I'll be going through those without quoting everything.

Warrior vs Swordmaster: One point that kept being brought up is the "useful passives of Warrior" that you're losing when you use Swordmaster instead and I have to respectfully disagree. The only useful passives are Tension Up and Mind and Body as One. Enhanced Row Attack is... not that great. I've honestly never been pleased with row attacks. I can't tell you how many times I'd have preferred an all target attack, or a more powerful single target attack. It's nice for those few characters with row attacks but I can't think of any character that have row attacks that would need more spell variety than what Warrior provides other than Chen. Fast Attack is nice to have but you're not losing too much by missing out on it, since you're most likely starting boss fights by having a sturdy front line to start buffing before you switch in to buff your attackers.

Enhanced Normal Attack sounds purely for random encounters to keep MP consumption low. I haven't personally used this at all so I could be wrong but in a boss fight, I probably don't ever want to use Attack over a Spell. Maybe it would work on someone with really good base stats, by turning Attack into a cheap Physical Spell with okay delay. Or maybe it'd work with Overheating characters but the skill description says offensive ability so Attack might not count? Not an area I've explored honestly since I wasn't enticed at all by Oku or Nitori but as I'm writing this, I'm realizing that I might have wrote off Enhanced Normal Attack too quickly.

As for Tension Up and Mind and Body as One, only Tension Up has universal use while Mind and Body as One is more for switch in, switch out attackers. So I honestly don't think you're giving up too much from Warrior to Swordmaster.

Satori's HP skill: I'm not feeling it, Reisen's spell would cost 6MP each time she casts it so I can't really see Satori getting too many casts off before her MP runs dry. I guess Small MP Recovery helps with that, along with Plus Disk levels of stat inflation but HP would have have to scale REALLY high or MP recovery for Satori would have to be REALLY good for this gimmick to work. Otherwise, any straightforward attacker would probably deal as much damage without the effort needed to have Satori and Reisen out in front. Using Chen for this would give it more potential but not much more because despite the difference in delay between Grand Patriot's Elixir and Flight of Idaten only being 3%, Satori is a horrendously slow character. I also wouldn't want the trouble of getting Chen and HP built Satori together on the frontline, because since its based on Satori's current HP, she doesn't want to take hits and if she's taking hits, then you'd want a fast healer like Minoriko on the frontline too. All this just makes it sound like the HP thing is just nice bonus damage instead of something to be capitalized on. Who knows, maybe equips and scaling will make Satori's HP, SPD, MP and MP recovery decent enough for this to work.

Regarding healing up large amounts of HP: So my Komachi has 100k HP and my Minoriko with no level up bonuses in MAG, +10 MAG gems, MAG Boost Skill Level 5, passive MAG boost from being Magician subclass, comparable library levels in MAG compared to her actual level and entirely defensive equipment set up, is healing a good 40k with only an 8% buff to her MAG from her Ability to Control Harvests passive. She heals for 80k after getting 80% MAG buffs. Sweet Potato Room is insane. Unless HP scales way faster than MAG does, she doesn't need any investment into MAG to heal for huge amounts. Even if HP scaling is faster, Minoriko is a fast leveler so she should still be able to heal for large amounts. If you're not running Sanae, Renko, or Byakuren, then yeah I guess its not realistic to expect Minoriko's MAG to be buffed but otherwise, she can heal plenty.

Minoriko and Wriggle: I think you're vastly over valuing her Infinite Corridor regen skill. I'm pretty sure in any serious boss fight, Minoriko is going to get way more than 25 turns and after that point, the passive is useless. Unless I'm misunderstanding the skill.

Herbalist would be an excellent choice for Minoriko; she's fast and she doesn't always need to throw around healing or DEF/MND buffs so she'll have free turns to do Herbalist things. But speaking of free turns, Wriggle has a TON of those. She's the perfect fit for Herbalist since aside from keeping up Poison if the boss is susceptible to it or switching characters around, she can use her turns to make use of Herbalist spells.

And I don't know why Wriggle is getting a bad rap as a tank, she has the second tankiest character on my team behind Komachi. With excellent Ailment Resistances, she's free to focus equips on buffing DEF, MND and fixing her Elemental Resistances. Even if I take off Divine Barrier, she still has the highest DEF and MND stats of the party and everyone that's supposed to take hits has the same library levels, with similar focuses on having well rounded resistances.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 10:06:07 AM by jaxter0987 »

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2016, 10:55:34 AM »
I'm pretty sure you're reading Minoriko's skill wrong. It means that it can regenerate over her max HP, up to 50% more, not that "it can only generate 150% of her maxHP over an entire battle". (Also plus seems to have toned down the "really high defense" part of the product version significantly, and all the boss battles in the trial are pretty fast paced, so I doubt anyone can reach 25 turns there)

Also for Overheat, even without Enhanced Normal Attack, normal attacks will accumulate Overheat counter and benefit from the damage bonus. It will still cost 0 MP to use (1 with enhanced or area). Truly uncontainable.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2016, 03:12:20 PM »
Warrior vs Swordmaster: One point that kept being brought up is the "useful passives of Warrior" that you're losing when you use Swordmaster instead and I have to respectfully disagree. too much from Warrior to Swordmaster
Enhanced Normal Attack is only worth caring about on a couple characters, it's true. (Iku, Mamizou, perhaps overheaters as it DOES work, Flan for randoms sometimes) Similarly, Row Attack is only worth caring about on a few characters, but you seem to have underestimated it, so I'll cover that too-

Orin and Ran's (and arguably Yuyuko's) -best attacks- are already their row attacks. Giving them warrior effectively increases their damage output by 30% flat, before accounting for the ATK buff. It also brings Kogasa's and Alice's (now that she ignores 40% mnd/def-it's not even a corridor skill!) up to par as a "best attack", and makes attack-Komachi's significantly more potent of an option versus spirit-resistant bosses (of which there's plenty...). Hina and Yukari certainly aren't always using their gimmick attacks and their next bests are easily their row skills.

And 30% damage is quite a nice chunk to have... ontop of Tension Up. So yeah. Enhanced Row Attack is very useful on many characters. I included magic-users in here because it's pretty much the same with the magic class, even if it has arguably more useful damage skills. (Sorceror's row enhance also lets Penetrator become strong enough to use as a legit damaging skill, but not quite as much in Archmage- for elemental roulette maybe, barely...)

Past those character-specific cases, I'd say Tension Up is a -very- useful skill. Yes, I have lots of buffers. However, I'm not buffing them every turn. Tension Up effectively makes their buffs decay MUCH slower, which translates into a non-trivial amount of extra damage that easily beats out the extra base stats on swordmaster/archmage. Yuuka can go without, but most people with passive buff upkeep only want it more because it practically makes them self-sufficient; majesty+tension up means 14% passive buffs and if you have a strategist out I believe that sets you up for permanent +100% buffs.

And since Tension up applies the buff WHEN you take your next turn, not on the attack, you ACTUALLY end up with higher buffs. Instead of being at 80% when you take the first turn after having been buffed to 100%, you have 88%- or 94% with majesty, for example, or flat-out 100 instead of 84%(?) via strategist. And you have more much buffs the second and third time as well, after which you're liable to be looking at getting rebuffed to keep everything high and top off the offense again.

So yeah, I highly value Tension Up.

Quote
Minoriko and Wriggle: I think you're vastly over valuing her Infinite Corridor regen skill. I'm pretty sure in any serious boss fight, Minoriko is going to get way more than 25 turns and after that point, the passive is useless. Unless I'm misunderstanding the skill.
What? No. Healing up to 150% doesn't mean after 150% is regened over the battle she stops regenerating. It means she can Hourai Elixir herself slowly. Not the most amazing, but it earns you extra HP when the boss isn't using alltarget attacks (or targetting Minoriko's high mind). If you think I'm overvaluing it, well, people seem to REALLY love Komachi as an HP tank. I haven't tried it personally, but apparently max hp + regen = insane?

Minoriko's max HP isn't as compelling as Komachi but she totals +16% base regen instead of 10% and hp tweaking is surprisingly effective postgame to fix hers, her regen overheals some, is notably faster than Komachi to regen more, and boasts intense hp/mp recovery abilities (Desire to Rest, Emergency Recovery/Charge and her boosted Owotoshi Harvester) and passively buffs the front's MAG.

And most importantly, she actually has a fairly high MND. That's what actually makes this work. Really, she only needs the cushion and big recovery versus defense-targetting attacks. It depends how hard you go in on stat balance with equip/levels on HP versus MND, but that'll depend on the layout of the boss you're fighting- mostly magic, you'll dump your levels in mind, vice versa, etc.

This was also part of the idea behind Satori; if she's an enhancer she can keep her own HP going while supporting or damagerushing. (Also, I think you can easily get Satori 50~60+ max mp with second boost and high levels and most people don't super need those MP gems, and instant attackers let her really abuse small mp recovery, but in any case that gimmick is highly dependant on hp scaling.) She can potentially use normal support skills and deal a halfdecent amount of damage and just damage burst sometimes, but, we'll really just have to see how damage vs hp scales to tell whether it's worth caring about. She might be better off pairing with the full Earth Spirits team and continuing to copy people's attack skills if she wants damage, since that team skill will be OP endgame.

(it's nice to hear healing hp tanks isn't so bad, though, and lends more value to keeping Minoriko/Sanae in postgame if you use Komachi or hp-build Renko, etc. It'd be hard if you were just using Reimu/Maribel/maybe even Rumia) (HP Build Renko has serious potential tho because maintennance+easygoing+12% hp regen with Maribel.)

Quote
And I don't know why Wriggle is getting a bad rap as a tank, she has the second tankiest character on my team behind Komachi. With excellent Ailment Resistances, she's free to focus equips on buffing DEF, MND and fixing her Elemental Resistances. Even if I take off Divine Barrier, she still has the highest DEF and MND stats of the party and everyone that's supposed to take hits has the same library levels, with similar focuses on having well rounded resistances.
I'm just looking at base stats. Wriggle has good levels and cheap library, which definitely helps, but her base is only 8.8. Theoretically a -ton- of people can be tankier than this. NOW, YES, those are not half bad stats at all and you can totally do some tanking, but they're not particularly good either. Once you add in Team 9 bonuses it gets better, though. In postgame with either All By Myself or Proof of Kinship it gets a -lot- better, and +25% with poison on makes her potentially -amazing-, though. Poison Touch functioning helps a bit as well to help keep poison actually up.

I don't really have to worry about "Equipping for resistances" anyway since stuff like War Mask of the Butcher does both and I try to give tanks a Star of Elendil for all that sweet elemental affinity. Wriggle's ailment resistance is definitely an upside though- give her a tome of ailment resistance and she's nigh-immune across the board.

edit:ORIN and ran's best attacks are row attacks. ORIN. NOT CHEN. AUUUUG HCATGIRLS
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 03:29:55 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

jaxter0987

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2016, 09:38:22 PM »
"I can't think of any character that have row attacks that would need more spell variety than what Warrior provides other than Chen"
Of the ATK based row attack users you mentioned, only Orin would want more spell variety than what Warrior provides. Kogasa would be perfectly content with Warrior's added spell variety and would have no need for Swordmaster's stuff.

I only considered the physical side of things since I don't remember what Archmage brings. Now that Alice ignores 40% MND, I might actually be able to use Hanged Hourai Dolls. But back on the whole useful passives versus spell variety thing, neither Alice nor Yuyuko would need any more spell variety than what Sorcerer provides. Alice and Yuyuko get WND with Penetrator and Yuyuko gets MYS with Aspiration Surge. I actually can't think of very many characters that might currently use Sorcerer but would benefit more from Archmage other than Yuuka.

As for Minoriko's thing, I'll need to go back and look for it. I'm not doubting that the regen is much better than I thought, but I need to see why I thought it was as bad as I did.

Also, Tension Up and Magic Beating applies after you attack according to the in game descriptions.

For Wriggle, I was mainly concerned about fixing her terrible resistances against FIR and CLD attacks, thus Divine Barrier works wonders for me. Yes for tanks, they get Star of Elendil or Grand Master Breaker Titles, but because of Wriggles Ailment Resistances, she can afford a slot thats more focused on boosting Elemental Resistance.

And after looking for the exact wording of the translated skill:
Minoriko
Myraid Goddess of Good Harvest (1*75): Using either Sweet Potato Room or Owatoshi Harvest will also activate the effect of the other spell (treated as Lv1).
Protection of Plants (1*40): Regenerates HP at 6% per turn. This effect can regenerate HP up to 150% of the character's MaxHP.
... I think I see where I got the idea from.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 09:42:23 PM by jaxter0987 »

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2016, 10:12:06 PM »
And after looking for the exact wording of the translated skill:... I think I see where I got the idea from.

Yeah sorry about that. It's simultaneously stressful and exciting to go through that list, ya know? For when the actual translation starts, it'll probably end up something like:

Protection of Plants
Regenerate 6% HP per turn.
This regenerative effect can exceed the user's maximum HP.
This skill can regenerate up to 150% of user's maximum HP.

Actually now that I look at it, it's the original wording that's also ambiguous :ohdear: But I think the "can regenerate to an upper limit of 150% HP" makes much more sense than "total regeneration done by the skill cannot exceed 150% of HP". We'll see when the actual skill comes out I guess.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 10:15:09 PM by RegalStar »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2016, 10:38:33 PM »
Oooh, I see. I misunderstood the statement about spell variety. That makes sense, then. Whoops!

Yuuka is indeed the most well suited character for Archmage, given that she doesn't need the extra buffing to hit maxes; however, she's actually also the most well suited to Swordmaster... keep in mind she has 15.6 base attack and 14.0 base magic. Moon Shadow Flash is only slightly worse in power and about equal in speed compared to Flower Shot and extra attack could make the mp effect relevant, but more importantly, Explosive Flame Sword is much stronger than any of Yuuka's skills, and there's still Samidare Slash for variety and AoE. Yuuka's main downfall apart from her slow leveling and expensive library holding her stats back, is that her innate spells don't carry good formulas for a nuker, and Sorceror's are only a teensy bit better... and Warrior limited her exclusively to Explosive Flame Sword unless you counted swapping between Warrior and Monk. Swordmaster gives her enough variety to actually be a worthy choice. Her innate skillset really isn't that compelling... meh power, mono-elemental and the alltarget's effects are only relevant if you get multiple Extra Attack triggers.

Archmage can give her a hefty dose of variety and Execution for a strong attack choice, but even with her strange version of grand incantation (where concentrate guarantees extra attack procs) the delay is rather painful unless she's getting swapped right after. Still a worthy choice, especially if you wish to keep her original moveset (and it does give superior elemental coverage) but Swordmaster might be even better. Either works well. Or then, if you consider the one-person-only subclasses... combining Yuuka's doubly high base atk/mag with them and her Extra Attack might lead to interesting results... we'll need more info about their moves to really tell much though.

Meanwhile, talking about Alice, Tripwire also becomes a lot more useful because originally the only reason it was more for status effects than damage is the high mind influence. Suddenly, that's less of a problem; heavy status -and- nice damage... and you've got moves like Return Inanimateness for high defense opponents. Mix with her evasion and decent bulk and... jeez Alice, the only thing about you that isn't wonderful is how much Marisa boosts you to where you "take up" two party slots instead of one. That being said, still a good character without Marisa, but since +30% mag works with Marisa in the back, it's too deliciously easy to pass up on...

edit:Huh... amusingly it occurs to me Mokou's generally better off using Explosive Flame Sword over her own innate skills to take advantage of Blazing. It's 1.36x stronger than Flying Phoenix, only a lil' slower.. better at piercing def. Fujiyama Volcano is a bit stronger of course but delay/cost is ow. Of course, I generally see Mokou used as a tank, but the nuker who just won't go down sounds pretty pleasing, doesn't it?

edit again:Okay, I tested Tension Up, the wiki description is different from ingame and it works according to the ingame description, not the wiki one. It triggers as soon as you attack. Huh, I wonder if Orin/Sakuya get multiple triggers then? -Delicious-. Time to test. edit:YES THEY DO. I don't think it'll work on Monk's though, but it works with Tension Up and it's magic counterpart. Very useful for Sakuya/Orin; Warrior subclass on them for sure.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 11:16:23 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2016, 02:51:46 AM »
Well, Monk's Fire Bird does almost as much DoT as Explosive Flaming Swords anyways, in exchange to having a different element and FAST DASH (which I rely on so much for randoms). Iunno; I wouldn't swap my Mokou's class anyhow.

Although she really isn't very special on the "hit bosses for damage" department unless they're weak to FIR. Which is why I'm kind of excited about what Koishi is like; if Ember of Loves is strong enough (and she doesn't have Chen-like defenses), she might be able to replace Mokou on my team. Then again Imperishable Shooting looks like a really good damage boosting skill so... Iunno. I'll see when I get there I guess.

And while I'm not really surprised, NG+ on the trial version doesn't let you start with the plus disk characters. A shame.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2016, 02:33:22 PM »
Quote from: 3peso
https://www.axfc.net/u/3747034
Labyrinth of Touhou 2 Plus Disk Web Trial Rev.E released. Unlike up to Rev.D', Rev.E's save data will NOT be able to be inherited by the full version! Before you play Version E, Make sure that you keep a copy of your save file!

Quote from: 3peso
In Rev.E, the automatically generated dungeon "Endless Corridor" has been added. Even though it's called endless, in the trial version you can only go up to 31F. After you clear 31F it will just continue looping at 31F.

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2016, 03:04:13 PM »
I'll post about experiences with endless corridor here:

-After you clear the event on the B4F hole, the dungeon is unlocked, but you do not enter it through the hole; rather you enter it from a new option in gensokyo menu: http://puu.sh/szurj/2fb9213d29.png
-The dungeons are randomly generated every time you enter, and they're generally like NetHack's maze levels consist of twisty corridors, although I did once encounter a 3-tile wide corridor that looks just a little like a room.

-In terms of plot, Reimu and co. could only enter the place because of the protection afforded by Miko's Seven Star seal, so in the dungeon it also poses a cap on how long you can stay in the dungeon for. The top marker starts at "200+0", and acts as a soft cap - by fighting monsters you can increase the right-hand side number, and glowing green icons will add to the left-hand side number. This counter is also consumed for various things in the dungeon. Getting it up is actually very easy since M key still works here (not sure if it's intended or not)
-The middle marker is the durability of the seven-star seal protection, and is a hard cap that I haven't found a way of increasing yet.
-The bottom marker is just the number of floors cleared consecutively.

-The green icons (without a glow) are not chests, but rather items sealed. You can choose to expend a number of the seven star seal counter to unlock them (20 for 1 exclamation mark, doubled for each one thereafter), use an infinity key to unlock them or unseal it by force (haven't encountered the downside of this yet, although it seems that high level chests are converted to low level loot if you do this? maybe?). Occasionally you can unseal one for free. I've found a lot of sub-equips, some infinity gems, and the occasional Tomes of Insight so far.
-The yellow icons are locations where you can choose to spend 20% of your left-hand side number to illuminate an area around it. If your left hand side number is 0 you can illuminate the area for free.
-Green glowing icons increase your seven star seal counter's left-hand side by a bit.
-White glowing icons increase your seven star dust by a bit.
-Green icons with some arrows on it lets you convert some seven star seal into dust (at double rate, and you can use right-hand side counter as well)
-Purple icon with a key gives you an infinity key.

-If you clear every green icon in a floor before clearing it, you get a free infinity gem to go with it.
-After you complete a floor, you will enter a transitory area before you enter the next floor, and the left hand side counter you had at the end of previous floor wlil be converted into "seven star dust" which can be exchanged for various items. You can exchange them for infinity gems, orihalcon, adamantium, and various stat orbs (not gems) and equipment. Strongest one I see here is Machine God Lucifer (sub-equip, all stats+666%, MYS/SPI/DRK/PHY+66) and Tokugawa Statue(main equip, MP+12, TP+12, All stats+1.2) but that requires a whooping 12800 dust.
-You can also get boons that help explore the later floors. Some options are instant MP restore or instant TP restore, or you can get a buff for the next few floors - I've seen boost to ATK/DEF, boost to MAG/MND, boost of SPD, reduce encounter rate, increase battle reward, restore MP at end of battle, chance to not use TP at the end of battle. The magnitude and length seem to be arbitrary. There are four to choose from and you can get one.

-On certain transitory areas (every tenth floor?) there will be a boss guarding the way to the next floor. The first one I found is Shadow Reimu - Abyssal, but it might be random or something. After you defeat the boss you get another Greater Jewel of Awakening. Then, the next time you visit Akyuu, a cutscene will happen, and then you will be able to exchange any extra Greater Jewel of Awakening for any corridor-skill unlocking items (you can't trade away your last one).

-If you leave the dungeon for any reason, when you come back you are forced to start at the floor you left it in. You cannot start from an earlier floor.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 12:46:18 PM by RegalStar »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2016, 03:38:06 PM »
Ooooh, sweet! Thanks for the info! Non-transferable... maybe it's a good thing it's stopping at 31F right now.

But there's one question I don't see answered yet; and that's information about the Jet Black Fragments (and/or infinite corridor skill unlocks which I think were related to gathering those?).

Unsealing by force... doesn't seem to do anything? Is it a battle or just you have no idea what the downside is at all?
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2016, 03:57:22 PM »
Ooooh, sweet! Thanks for the info! Non-transferable... maybe it's a good thing it's stopping at 31F right now.

But there's one question I don't see answered yet; and that's information about the Jet Black Fragments (and/or infinite corridor skill unlocks which I think were related to gathering those?).

Unsealing by force... doesn't seem to do anything? Is it a battle or just you have no idea what the downside is at all?

I'm pretty sure the infinite corridor skill unlocking items aren't related to black fragments (which are part of the plus disk storyline; all the character shadow bosses drop one). I haven't gotten to see them yet so maybe I just need to explore some more.

And yeah I don't see a downside from unsealing by force yet, except for the fact that the couple of high level icons (with more exclamation marks) that I unsealed by force gave me things that don't seem to be more powerful than what one-exclamation icons give me, while the single level three icon which I spent seal counter on gave me a Paladin Shield.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2016, 04:07:59 PM »
That'd make sense. If you don't want to (or can't) deal with real costs you can force it open for something cruddy.

Oooh, so you get them like that... I see. A loooong time ago it was implied they work a different way but either I remember wrong or the info was misguided. Black Fragments increase and decrease all damage done/taken right? If it works universally and you get them for beating bosses, that's convenient.

Of course, that's so that plus scaling works better. I've imagined it's difficult to balance the number bloat with subtraction formulas, especially to the degree of reaching lv600+. But if you decrease all damage taken by a certain amount, you can help lower the gap between tanks and medium-defense characters to avoid a nightmare where either tanks are invincible or attacks murderize any non-tank.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Validon98

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2016, 04:29:52 PM »
Weren't the Jet Black Fragments the items that occasionally reduced TP costs? At least, I think that's what those were, there are specific items per character that do the "damage dealt up/taken down" thing that are unrelated to Jet Black Fragments.
Derping at Touhou since June 2012, derping at RPing Touhou since Feburary 2013.

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RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2016, 04:49:33 PM »
Weren't the Jet Black Fragments the items that occasionally reduced TP costs? At least, I think that's what those were, there are specific items per character that do the "damage dealt up/taken down" thing that are unrelated to Jet Black Fragments.

Those specific items are also what unlocks the skills for them. I believe their description was like "you get one to unlock skills, and get more to raise damage dealt/reduce damage taken by 1% each"

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2016, 05:05:43 PM »
....well that's why I'm not making sense. I mixed them up :V

BUT YES. I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THOSE CHARACTER-SPECIFIC ONES.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore