Ichizoku (WR holder for RA,RB,MA shot types in EoSD) is cheating? [discussion]

[cactu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k4ZONeHO1A

watch this video and tell me what you guys think, mods feel free to delete thread if it's not the right kind of thread for this subforum

[Serela]

I watched but I mean does it really make that much of a difference whether you dodge starting at one part of the kunai circle or another

I mean it's uniform throughout

is it unrealistic to freestyle whether you start at point A or point B I mean the points seem pretty much the same, if you could do both it probably isn't necessary to always do one or the other

of course, I am not A Super Player

[cactu]

I mean it's much more easier to do the spin if you do it the same way every time, his Reimu A and Reimu B WR's were 9 days apart which is already fishy enough, but they both use different timings for the spins too. ReimuA is timing #2, #2, #2 and ReimuB is timing #1, #1 and #2. Just to put it out there his MarisaA timings were #1, #2 and #1.  There is no graze difference or any other gain from doing them differently.

[Zil]

I watched but I mean does it really make that much of a difference whether you dodge starting at one part of the kunai circle or another

He's not really starting from different points. He could, for instance, start further to Daiyousei's left and then move upward to start the motion, rather than arbitrarily sweeping underneath her before she's started shooting. What it seems like, seeing how he moves very late with method 1 and early with method 2 (looking at how close he is to the edges of the lanes) and especially if you keep in mind that normally the whole area around Daiyousei becomes enveloped in light when she shoots so you can't see anything, is that Ichizoku just kind of jumps in with only a vague idea of timing, perhaps not even realizing that sometimes he goes into one lane and sometimes into another. Obviously, if you're that bad at timing it you'd never be able to do it in runs without resetting forever.

Now, I don't think this is iron clad proof. It is of course possible that he knowingly does it two different ways for no apparent reason, however absurd that sounds. Remember though that lots of things about Ichizoku are considered suspect and this is yet another one to add to the pile. Nice find Cactu.

[cactu]

Now, I don't think this is iron clad proof. It is of course possible that he knowingly does it two different ways for no apparent reason, however absurd that sounds.

Like what? He throws a coin for which method he will use or something? I really don't see how this isn't good enough proof that he is cheating. Also, if this isn't proof for that, then what is?

[Zil]

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a cheater too, and this is pretty good evidence. I'm just saying you haven't actually shown him to be doing something impossible, just something inexplicable and stupid. For all intents and purposes though it's good enough. By this point it's safe to assume Ichizoku was a cheater.

[Karisa]

The main question I have regarding this is-- how likely is it to just not realize that there are multiple timings where one is more consistent? Especially with the mentioned cloud covering the bullets. It's entirely possible to hope to luck out on one part of a run and restart until getting it, especially when it's as early as stage 2. (Then again, I think EoSD has a lot of other RNG with boss movement for bullet cancels? Did this occur in runs that also had good RNG where it's needed?)

Basically, I wouldn't take just 3 spins as evidence-- could you post some of the other evidence that apparently exists?

[cactu]

Karisa, the thing is that unless your timing is exactly correct, you will almost certainly die during the spin. The only timings that work are the two timings I talked in the video. I find it very unlikely that anyone would restart on daiyousei until they got 3 spins if they aren't even timing the spins correctly, because if you aren't then even a single spin is really difficult. (I can't even imagine a success rate above 25% for a single spin) The other evidence for him cheating is is really wonky movement through all his runs, absolute nonsense routing at certain parts of the game and scoring mistakes that no player that high level would make. He also has insane execution for his route on every run. He makes basic survival mistakes like going into the small laser openings on Remilia's first spellcard when he is timing it out which has a very high chance of completely walling him off. There's enough suspicious stuff in his runs that even before this discovery about his daiyousei spins most people thought he was a cheater that used save states.

I don't think his runs have particularly insane RNG manipulation or anything before or after stage 2. Also restarting 90% of the runs you have on daiyousei when the game revolves around stages 3-6 would be an extreme waste of time (it doesn't even give much).

[iVAwalys]

Where can I get the full replay?
I looked everywhere and I simply can't find it.

[ZM]

Where can I get the full replay?
I looked everywhere and I simply can't find it.

http://zh.touhouwiki.net/images/f/fd/Th6_ud13b0.rpy

[iVAwalys]

http://zh.touhouwiki.net/images/f/fd/Th6_ud13b0.rpy

Thank you very much.
Yeah, his movement seems very unusual all throughout the run.
To be honest, it kind of looks like how the AI in PoFV dodges bullets.

[cactu]

It would actually make some sense if he was using slight slowdown too. I didn't think about this before, but if he used save states then he might as well use slowmo too, right?. The way he does wallfairies on stage 3 (the bunch of red bullet shooting fairies with one set shooting large aimed waves at you before midboss in stage 3) and the way he reads and dodges books come most to my mind as being suspicious...

[Drake]

The way he dodges books was probably one of the most noteworthy strange things in that run to my eyes (as I can't really gauge much from a scoring standpoint). I wouldn't compare his movement to PoFV AI, but it is pretty jank at some points.

[Cream Soda]

The run that Touhou wiki recognizes as the world record for Embodiment of Scarlet Devil cannot be found on Royalflare and is listed by this reliable page as a cheated run.