12th Touhou Series Popularity Contest!

[Raikaria]

This joke is no longer funny to me anymore.  In fact, it never was.

Except it's not a joke. ZUN himself said that. If the character designer said that is the case; it's not a joke. It's truth. Ichrin may have developed beyond merely being Unzan's hitbox in the fighting games [And even then she pretty much is that; very few of her attacks are actually HER] but in UFO she was designed as such and that was her purpose.

Also dang I forgot Shoot the Bullet. That makes Flandre 'The highest rated character who appears in 1 main series game'. Although to be fair once you count the photography games and Impossible Spell Card every single character who isn't PC-98 or from LLK has at least 2 game appearances.

[Suspicious person]

I don't see any particular reason of why she would be higher though, every character has a chance.

Well, if you consider her relevance in most of the works she appears in, her status as an EX - Boss, her fleshed out personality, and even her giant wardrobe and some more, you gotta admit that Mamizou has a lot going on for her, yet she still scored a "relatively" crappy rank in the poll. Heck, she's barely above Koakuma... and Koakuma have more first votes than her ! Everyone gets a chance, but her ranking just don't do justice to her.

Canon wise, Mamizou is pretty well rounded, the problem is in the fanon : there aren't a lot of video or fanworks that put her in the spotlight. Fanon is the fuel that allows the likes of Daiyousei and Koakuma and forgettable characters to thrive, and Mamizou is a bit low on that imo. It might just be me looking at the wrong places, but I've really never heard about a Mamizou related video / fanwork so good that a lot of people would tell people about.



Putting the Mamizou aside, it's nice to see that the rookies this time managed to get a decent position in the ranking  :3
Now, to see if they can withstand the test of time...

[Espadas]

I think a part of the "blame" for Mamizou's standing is that you simply cannot vote for everyone. Even if she is well-liked by many they still need to decide which to votes and which to sacrifice and "liked" is not the same as "loved".

[Ps]

Mamizou is really cool in Forbidden Scrollery, but in fanon she's just a tail.

[cerulean_blues]

Highest ranked PC-98 without a post-PC-98 appearance is Shinki, who chronologically is the last PC-98 character met. If you were to count all PC-98 characters you get Reimu; obviously.

Interesting that Shinki has overtaken and now pulled away from Mima as most popular PC-98 character.

Also quite funny that she has gained several places in the last 2 polls, despite having been retired for almost 17 years.

[Raikaria]

Interesting that Shinki has overtaken and now pulled away from Mima as most popular PC-98 character.

Also quite funny that she has gained several places in the last 2 polls, despite having been retired for almost 17 years.

Shinki's popularity is probobly tied to that of Alice; who rose from 10th to 9th. You know; the whole thing with Shinki being Alice's creator/mother.

Although technically Shinki hasn't been 100% retired; ZUN did see fit to make a theme for her for a fangame. [So Shinki has two official themes despite only appearing once in a single official game]

[Plubio]

I love Mamizou and I voted for her and it sucks she's so low.
But as everyone has been saying, sometimes you have to sacrifice a vote but... I don't know, poor tanuki.

Anyway I'm still happy ZUN really enjoys using her, she's a total badass on Forbidden Scrollery, hope she keeps up.

[SirSlarty]

Let's see what happens if people only get ONE vote.
For the character poll and using the "firsts" votes as "this is my favorite character", assuming that's what people will vote for with their one vote, the rankings change.
The top five switch around, interestingly.

Blue = same rank  | Green = rise in rank  | Red = drop in rank  | last number is amount of offset

1. Reimu 0
2. Koishi +1
3. Youmu  +3
4. Marisa -2
5. Sakuya -1
6. Flandre -1
7. Alice +2
8. Remilia -1
9. Aya +1
10. Satori -2

11. Mokou 0
12. Sanae 0
13. Yuyuko +3
14. Tenshi -1
15. Meiling +9
16. Yuuka +3
17. Momiji +4
18. Yukari 0
19. Rumia +6
20. Patchouli 0

21. Reisen -4
22. Kogasa 0
23. Parsee +7
24. Cirno +11
25. Shiki Eiki +1
26. Ran +9
27. Seija 0
28. Okuu +1
29. Kokoro -14
30. Nitori +3

31. Suwako +3
32. Kaguya +9
33. Renko -5
34. Miko +3
35. Sagume -21
36. Hina +13
37. Nue +1
38. Futo -6
39. Byakuren +1
40. Suika +2

41. Mystia +10
42. Nazrin +3
43. Kasen -4
44. Keine +3
45. Iku -1
46. Chen +9
47. Junko -16
48. Clownpiece -25
49. Orin +1
50. Wriggle +35  <- this is the largest positive offset!


And since there's lots of talk of Mamizou, her "Firsts" rank DROPS 14 places to 75th.

Here's the GSheet if anyone's interested.

[UTW]

It's sad that the most interesting thing I found about this vote is not the result but those people who doubt the voting system.

Joke entries aside, I don't doubt its legitimacy. But I've always thought 2nd or even 3rd place votes should be weighted like 1st place is. Especially with more slots for characters and music now. Say, five points for 1st, three for 2nd, two for 3rd, and one for the rest.

Mamizou

First impressions are important. I think that with exception, it can be hard to come back if you don't make a good first impact. I remember the reactions, not many liked her at first. She had the double distinction of debuting in a game that wasn't well-received, of which she was thought to be a reason. Her design was seen as not being very appealing, to say the least (ugly was the usual word). It was thought Futatsuiwa from Sado was the best thing about her.

She also suffered from unfair expectation. Unreasonable as it was at the time, fans had concocted expectations of the game and the EX slot and were disappointed. With Mima fever taking hold at the time, it was thought she would show up (I know, it's silly). Or they thought Kasen would make her game debut (it made a little more sense given what we saw of her at the time with the assumption being that she would also be investigating the spirits; ZUN almost thought so, too, but thought it was inappropriate to debut her at that time).

Let's face it, she only started being really cool in Forbidden Scrollery. Hell, she's like an entirely new character. So, it basically took a rewrite, a new design, etc. to get her to where she is. Regardless, I don't think fans have wavered much. The damage is done. Look at how little attention she receives on Pixiv despite having a major role in FS, for example. Now, while I think fans "like" her, like others have said, it's just not enough to move into enough people's favorite characters slot.

Unfortunately, I just don't think many fans care that much when a character gets "better". Ichirin, a favorite of mine from the start, got an origin story in SoPm and was really fun in HM and ULiL, gaining a personality there, but that hasn't helped, either. By the time it happens it's too little, too late. Fans will have moved on by then. Bottom line, it can be hard to shake that first impression.

[game2011]

Except it's not a joke. ZUN himself said that. If the character designer said that is the case; it's not a joke. It's truth. Ichrin may have developed beyond merely being Unzan's hitbox in the fighting games [And even then she pretty much is that; very few of her attacks are actually HER] but in UFO she was designed as such and that was her purpose.

Who says character designers can't decide to say something funny or something wrong (not saying he's wrong, since there can't be anything wrong about this)?  If he says something like Kisume's inspiration and character design is actually based off how he envisions himself as a female, decapitating people and all, are you really going to take that seriously?  He can say the same thing for Alice, about her being the hitbox for her dolls.  Miyamoto once said he is Bowser Jr.'s mother and no "just kidding" afterwards.  Yeah...  Sure, he more than likely means he designed him and not literally gave birth to him, but I'm sure the interviewers wanted to know Bowser Jr.'s literal mother when they asked that.

ZUN's intention was perhaps "I wanted to create a male character for once, but since it's strange for one to be directly attacking male opponents in a female-heavy series (Shingyoku doesn't exist, lol), I've decided to accompany him with a female character who you must hit."

Show me what he said, and we'll talk.

But even so, change in ideas are clearly made during the development process.  If Unzan is supposed to be the actual character, then why doesn't he have any dialogues, character development, and adequate amounts of screentime?  Instead, we had Ichirin do all the talking and stealing all the fame.  Before creation, one could say that Unzan was supposed to be the actual character, but that clearly is no longer the case by the time the game came out.  For a series that focuses on females, ZUN should know better than to create a character duo where the male is more important than the female.

To be fair, it can go either ways depending on the point of view.  From ZUN's POV, he created Ichirin with the intention of her being Unzan's hitbox, but you cannot deny that he also made her her own character.  In the actual story, she's not, like, a projection of Unzan or some kind of growth attached to him.   Everything she does and say are all her own.  Unzan is not her true identity nor is he using her to express himself, so as far as the series's lore goes, Ichirin is completely her own entity.

[Flandre5carlet]

Canon wise, Mamizou is pretty well rounded, the problem is in the fanon : there aren't a lot of video or fanworks that put her in the spotlight. Fanon is the fuel that allows the likes of Daiyousei and Koakuma and forgettable characters to thrive, and Mamizou is a bit low on that imo. It might just be me looking at the wrong places, but I've really never heard about a Mamizou related video / fanwork so good that a lot of people would tell people about.

The thing is, personally I think one of the reasons why fanon works don't focus on Mamizou is exactly because she is already well-rounded in canon, in fact one of the most well-rounded characters in that regard. So there is no "need" to "flesh out" her character through fanon works and the like.
In turn, since many fans don't really give much of a damn about canon and only care about fanon... Yeah, you end up with Daiyousei ranking 58 and Mamizou ranking below her.

Her design was seen as not being very appealing, to say the least (ugly was the usual word).

How does one find Mamizou's design ugly but Hecatia's design appealing-
That said, your post makes a lot of sense, but it's still very saddening. She genuinely is one of the most developed characters in the franchise now. Besides, she wasn't exactly rewritten or anything through the print works, she was simply fleshed out. A luxury that a lot of characters who ranked better than her simply don't have. I do think that people unironically hoping for Mima and being disappointed is part of the reason for her lack of popularity, as well.

Now I wish I had her in my votes instead of another character, even though it wouldn't have changed much...

[CyberAngel]

I'm surprised "you can't vote for everyone" is voiced as a reason at all. If you people somehow missed it, they've INCREASED the number of characters you can vote for. Not being popular in fanon doesn't cut it either - that was true in the past as well, but that didn't stop her from actually gaining popularity over time. However, while everyone's score increased 1.5 - 2 times this time, Mamizou's gain is very small. And she has less 1st place votes than she EVER did before. Through and through, she's losing popularity. Is she less active in the recent manga chapters? Did people get fed up with her being Ko-chan's mentor? Or did they dislike her urban legend in ULiL? Those are the only reasons I can think of.

[Branneg Xy]

Thanks a lot for all the guides ,updates,insight and commenting in this 12th Touhou Popularity Contest!
Also after reading "  https://www.facebook.com/mamizouthetanukiofsweetpotatoes/posts/1113238048717150:0 " ...Ahahah!Do not feel bad at all since it is clear as day the Character-Position-Comments strings are intentionally sarcastic and ironic for them to be their own brand of succeeded funny .

[Espadas]

I'm surprised "you can't vote for everyone" is voiced as a reason at all. If you people somehow missed it, they've INCREASED the number of characters you can vote for.

Doesn't matter how many votes you have, you WILL have to cut someone out. Sure, more votes means more chances to be voted but it's still a matter of how much you like her.

Take me for example.
I like Mamizou but i never vote for her, because i put Sanae, Yuuka, Yuyuko, Yukari, Rinnosuke and the Aki sisters above her.
Next year we actually get 10 votes? STILL NOT VOTING FOR HER, cause i would then add Flandre, Utsuho and Youmu.....

[Electric Tengu]

Mfw I voted for Sky Ruin (#241) and Magical Storm (#277) ...

Sky Ruin's placement always amazes me, I think it would do so much better if it were from a popular game.

[CyberAngel]

Doesn't matter how many votes you have, you WILL have to cut someone out. Sure, more votes means more chances to be voted but it's still a matter of how much you like her.

Ahem.

that was true in the past as well, but that didn't stop her from actually gaining popularity over time.

And she has less 1st place votes than she EVER did before.

Could you please read the whole posts instead of just the first two sentences from now on? It's kinda hard to have an actual discussion otherwise.

[Espadas]

My post wasn't intended as a counter to what you said. I didn't quote the latter part of your post because you made valid points.
I was explaining why I personally believe "you can't vote for everyone" is a factor in her mediocre standing.

The fact that this time she actually lost popularity and 1st place votes is probably a combinations of many things.
This obviously is a shot in the dark, but maybe a part of the people who put her first in the past found the newest characters (like Kishin or Clownpiece) very appealing and "demoted" her to second, third etc place, making her lose points despite being voted by roughly the same amount of people.

[Raikaria]

Who says character designers can't decide to say something funny or something wrong (not saying he's wrong, since there can't be anything wrong about this)?  If he says something like Kisume's inspiration and character design is actually based off how he envisions himself as a female, decapitating people and all, are you really going to take that seriously?  He can say the same thing for Alice, about her being the hitbox for her dolls.  Miyamoto once said he is Bowser Jr.'s mother and no "just kidding" afterwards.  Yeah...  Sure, he more than likely means he designed him and not literally gave birth to him, but I'm sure the interviewers wanted to know Bowser Jr.'s literal mother when they asked that.

ZUN's intention was perhaps "I wanted to create a male character for once, but since it's strange for one to be directly attacking male opponents in a female-heavy series (Shingyoku doesn't exist, lol), I've decided to accompany him with a female character who you must hit."

Show me what he said, and we'll talk.

But even so, change in ideas are clearly made during the development process.  If Unzan is supposed to be the actual character, then why doesn't he have any dialogues, character development, and adequate amounts of screentime?  Instead, we had Ichirin do all the talking and stealing all the fame.  Before creation, one could say that Unzan was supposed to be the actual character, but that clearly is no longer the case by the time the game came out.  For a series that focuses on females, ZUN should know better than to create a character duo where the male is more important than the female.

To be fair, it can go either ways depending on the point of view.  From ZUN's POV, he created Ichirin with the intention of her being Unzan's hitbox, but you cannot deny that he also made her her own character.  In the actual story, she's not, like, a projection of Unzan or some kind of growth attached to him.   Everything she does and say are all her own.  Unzan is not her true identity nor is he using her to express himself, so as far as the series's lore goes, Ichirin is completely her own entity.

Except she hardly had a personality at all in UFO. Her personality was basically 'Why are you following the ship' and loyalty enough to Byakuren to join Shou and Murasa. Her 'personality' on the wiki is one sentence. Unzan has three. And he doesn't even speak.

I've not played 13.5/14.5 so I cannot speak for her being fleshed out there, but in UFO, she was hardly even a character.

Combine this complete lack of characterization with her in-game purpose [In both UFO and 13.5/14.5; where the attacks performed by her proper are minimal] and the fact ZUN said as much; and you can see why it's hardly a joke to say 'Ichirin is Unzan's hitbox'. A joke is something like Sakuya and Pads; or Yuyuko eating everything [Instead of just being somewhat gluttonous like IN suggests].

I cannot find the actual quote from ZUN himself; but it's mentioned several times on the wiki that ZUN said this is the case. Admittedly the wiki is not 100% reliable; but it also quotes SoPM:

'Essentially, Unzan is the Stage 3 boss of Undefined Fantastic Object, not Ichirin; Ichirin herself came as a way to have an actual character on the screen for an hit box according to ZUN. When trying to think of what type of youkai to call Ichirin in Part 3 of Symposium of Post-mysticism, even Byakuren, who calls herself an expert on youkai, could only hesitantly refer to her as "um... a controller of a giant nyuudou."

Her character is so flat she doesn't even have a species. Even Byakuren basically calls her Unzan's Hitbox in canon. Made even more supported by another SoPM quote:

You stand no chance of defeating Ichirin while Unzan is protecting her, and it is impossible to harm Unzan in the first place.

[Spotty Len]

Yay, I was waiting for this.


https://twitter.com/kirai_s/status/691194998209925121

[game2011]

Except she hardly had a personality at all in UFO. Her personality was basically 'Why are you following the ship' and loyalty enough to Byakuren to join Shou and Murasa. Her 'personality' on the wiki is one sentence. Unzan has three. And he doesn't even speak.

I've not played 13.5/14.5 so I cannot speak for her being fleshed out there, but in UFO, she was hardly even a character.

Combine this complete lack of characterization with her in-game purpose [In both UFO and 13.5/14.5; where the attacks performed by her proper are minimal] and the fact ZUN said as much; and you can see why it's hardly a joke to say 'Ichirin is Unzan's hitbox'. A joke is something like Sakuya and Pads; or Yuyuko eating everything [Instead of just being somewhat gluttonous like IN suggests].

I cannot find the actual quote from ZUN himself; but it's mentioned several times on the wiki that ZUN said this is the case. Admittedly the wiki is not 100% reliable; but it also quotes SoPM:
Her character is so flat she doesn't even have a species. Even Byakuren basically calls her Unzan's Hitbox in canon. Made even more supported by another SoPM quote:

Unzan not speaking at all hurts his characterization a bit when compared to someone who actually speaks.

The fighting games do offer more insight into Ichirin's personality, such as having something of a temper issue, what with her rage mechanic.  Again, Unzan has no speaking roles in those games and does nothing more than acting as her silent servant.

Her having a higher ranking than Unzan in the poll makes a lot of sense if you actually know something about her.  To say that she has completely zero characterization shows how little you know about her.  You can't always rely on the Wiki.  Playing the games she appears in will give you more insight about her than a  couple of passages on a page that can be edited by anyone.

She is the mastermind of the duo, the brain of the operations, while Unzan is nothing more than a silent and obedient servant who does everything she says and will not act on his own.  As said before, Unzan being silent hurts his characterization a bit, even if he has some personality.  In the fighting games, you are controlling Ichirin, not Unzan, and she has her own attacks.  When characters talk to the duo, it is her that is being focused on and exchanging dialogues.  You can actually get quite a lot from a character if you pay attention to what s/he is saying.

At this point, it's absurd to say that Ichirin is less important and insignificant when compared to Unzan.  Even if she does not have a whole lot of characterization, her having several expressions and saying lots of stuff in her appearances make her stand out more than Unzan, who pretty much lacks any form of expression other than looking angry.

She rightfully earns her spot on the poll.  Even if she is referred to as a hitbox by her creator, she still has her own character and backstory you cannot ignore completely.  She has ascended from a hitbox into an actual character.

And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't have a whole lot of interest in her.

[Helepolis]

I am not going to quote people because otherwise it is just huge quote blocks. But jumping in on the "why is character x more popular than y".

Being part of a household has a huge impact on fan-work or love from fans. As mentioned, Ichirin is a loyal member of the Myoren crew. Canonwise they are all tied to Byakuren thus they form for fans a household. Go find fan-work in household forms and you'll notice how she often gets along with Minamitsu. However, this still means nothing.

Consider the following:
Flandre is EX and canonical member of the Scarlet household (duh, little sister of the scarlet family)
Suwako is EX and canonical member of Moriya Shrine household (duh)
Koishi is EX and canonical member of the Chireiden household. (this is getting repeatitive)
Nue is EX and household paired with Myouren ? ? ?

... There is no relationship for Nue with Myouren aside that Byakuren accepted her presence as Youkai. Yet, due to this she is paired with the household in many fan work.

Mamizou is EX. A friend of Nue and that is about it. If we strip FS and purely look it at it on its own: Mamizou is nothing but just a tail like Ps mentioned.

Not saying this is the reason for her low popularity, but could be one of the reasons.

[snowflake247]

Yay, I was waiting for this.


https://twitter.com/kirai_s/status/691194998209925121

I like the retro sprite art style of this image.

[Plubio]

Mamizou is EX. A friend of Nue and that is about it. If we strip FS and purely look it at it on its own: Mamizou is nothing but just a tail like Ps mentioned.

Not saying this is the reason for her low popularity, but could be one of the reasons.

Yeah, the problem is that, aside from being Nue's friend, Mamizou's is a nobody in Gensokyo. She seems to being having a great time on the human village tho.
Yet she has some reputation on the outside world, or at least she used to ? after all, she's supposed to be Danzaburou danuki. Even Nue calls her "tanuki leader" in Forbidden Scrollery.
But I think you pretty much explained it: Mamizou is not that popular because she can't be paired with popular characters.

It's a shame, that just show the huge shit taste of this fandom.
Jokes aside is still a shame.

[Gpop]

It's a shame, that just show the huge shit taste of this fandom.
Jokes aside is still a shame.

The biggest problem is that the potential characters she does have to pair with, they are usually better paired with other characters that's more popular. (ie. Mamizou/Kokoro is overseen by Kokoro/Byakuren/Miko or Kokoro/Koishi, Mamizou/Kosuzu is overseen by Aki/Kosuzu, Mamizou/Nue is overseen by Nue/Myouren temple or previously Nue/Koishi/Flandre).

[Kilgamayan]

Or maybe Mamzoop just has an unappealing design. >_>

[Jeremie]

It's probably a combination of things that doesn't cause her to be popular among certain parts of the fanbase.  The series has so much appeal in many ways so it's going to split things right off the bat. I like to joke about older character being at an instant disadvantage since they're not considered as cute but that could be possible. I also don't remember her having any huge meme. I haven't been following videos as much as I used to when I was new to the series but it's also possible she doesn't show into a very popular video or something that gives her a lot of mass appeal. The more appeal a character has to a mass audience, the more they'll get popular. EOSD regardless of it's age still gets a lot of content and it's also combined with nostalgia so it will continue to keep it's appeal to a lot of those fans in the first place.

That and I'm pretty sure it's been brought up but there's quite a limited amount of fans who reads print works or side materials (Although Renko seems quite popular for a reason that escapes me except for some of her lines being amusing) and just have their preferences dictated by how cute a character is. 

[Kirin no Sora]

*looks at the stuff that has appeared since my post*

Whoops... I guess that Twitter post isn't the same as the actual results... My bad.  :blush:

[game2011]

*looks at the stuff that has appeared since my post*

Whoops... I guess that Twitter post isn't the same as the actual results... My bad.  :blush:

It's similar to some extent, though.

[Clarste]

Or maybe Mamzoop just has an unappealing design. >_>

I believe you'll find that Mamizou looks really cool and badass in her human disguise clothes. I could take or leave her original/fighting game designs though.

[Kilgamayan]

I actually liked her the most (or disliked her the least, perhaps) in HM. Her TD design is drab at best and the book designs don't do anything for me at all.

Mamzoop just has a really punchable face for some reason. I can't think of a better way to describe it. (I don't even want to punch her in the face. It's just that her face is very punchable.)