Author Topic: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."  (Read 88796 times)

Kilgamayan

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THANK YOU ZUN YOU ARE MY GREATEST ALLY
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cuc

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In SSiB I don't think he had much oversight.
Actually we have no hard evidence that the making process of SSiB differs from WaHH in any way.

ZUN's statement re: how he didn't give Aki Eda any "instruction on weapon" is vague in itself. For all we know, he could mean that he never told Aki Eda the fan is a weapon until the reveal, not unlike how George Lucas didn't tell anyone Darth Vader is Luke's father before shooting that scene.

I thought that ZUN wrote the mangas. Or was I mistaken?
From what can be gathered (based on ZUN's twitter, Nikenme Radio, and the artists' afterwords), the process involves:

1) He writes the script to a manga chapter. The script includes all dialogue, and instructions on certain details like character expressions. Manga industry people seem to think his writing contains more details than necessary, as when written by a different writer from the artist, manga scripts tend to leave lots of room for the artists to improvise. Of course, they are not all-encompassing; for example, they do not include all sound effects. I doubt ZUN have any exact control on the manga's page layout.

2) He attends an editorial meeting with the manga's editor and artist, generally at a restaraunt. Some preliminary work like designing new characters and other visual elements are done here. It may take several meetings to hammer down all the details on certain special occasions, but mostly it is one meeting for each chapter.

3) ZUN goes home, and falls into radio silence, no longer making any contact with his editor and artist. All he'd do is to wait for the new magazine to be delivered at his door.

As mentioned, the Inaba gag manga is an exception. ZUN only gave its artist Arata general directions such as which characters should appear, and let Arata tell his own jokes.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 02:11:27 PM by cuc »
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Also, in case someone might think he did that for a different reason (like "ZUN didn't exercise much control over Inaba because ZUN didn't consider it canon"), ZUN specifically stated he gave the artist lots of leeway because it was important in order to tell the jokes.

Raikaria

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1) He writes the script to a manga chapter. The script includes all dialogue, and instructions on certain details like character expressions. Manga industry people seem to think his writing contains more details than necessary, as when written by a different writer from the artist, manga scripts tend to leave lots of room for the artists to improvise. Of course, they are not all-encompassing; for example, they do not include all sound effects. I doubt ZUN have any exact control on the manga's page layout.

2) He attends an editorial meeting with the manga's editor and artist, generally at a restaraunt. Some preliminary work like designing new characters and other visual elements are done here. It may take several meetings to hammer down all the details on certain special occasions, but mostly it is one meeting for each chapter.

3) ZUN goes home, and falls into radio silence, no longer making any contact with his editor and artist. All he'd do is to wait for the new magazine to be delivered at his door.

As mentioned, the Inaba gag manga is an exception. ZUN only gave its artist Arata general directions such as which characters should appear, and let Arata tell his own jokes.

He probobly gives such specific instructions BECAUSE of Inaba...


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I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

Also, in case someone might think he did that for a different reason (like "ZUN didn't exercise much control over Inaba because ZUN didn't consider it canon"), ZUN specifically stated he gave the artist lots of leeway because it was important in order to tell the jokes.

Specifically, he chose the artist for their sense of humor, so he felt letting them tell their own jokes was very important.

Flandre5carlet

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Spoiler:
Apparently Clownpiece is going to stay with the three fairies
Spoiler:
I hope not, sincerely don't want her to be a regular. :X


He probobly gives such specific instructions BECAUSE of Inaba...
I never really figured whether the Touhou fandom generally likes or dislikes Inaba of the Moon, Inaba of the Earth. Of course, you can't have an entire fanbase agree on something, but generally there's always at least a sort of consensus for the majority.

I generally enjoyed Inaba of the Moon, Inaba of the Earth. I mean, who doesn't enjoy Eirin's punishment time~ <3!?

I think that having a manga that centers on one of the households/factions of Gensokyo and expands what we know of them by seeing what they get up to on a daily basis is a great idea. I mean, we already get a bit of that in Forbidden Scrollery, Wild and Horned Hermit and the artbooks but I liked the way it was done in Inaba. I would love to see a manga in the style of Inaba but have the Myouren Temple or the Great Mausoleum as the setting.

(Yes, I know there are literally thousands of Doujin works that have done this already... but it is not the same when it doesn't have the official ZUN seal of approval slapped on it).

CyberAngel

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I mean, who doesn't enjoy Eirin's punishment time~ <3!?

...Any decent human being?

But really, that's quite a big leap of logic to think that a gag manga (that ZUN wasn't even writing personally, unlike everything else) is a good way to judge the daily life of a household. (Also, "official ZUN seal of approval"? LOLWUT? As if that means a thing!)

Drake

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I can vastly disregard Inaba as a source of canonical information but still enjoy it for what it is. Not sure why people get so wrapped up about this.

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Tengukami

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Kaguya knows how to ding-dong-dash (or ping-pong-dash as the case may be), Mokou knows how to fish, and that is canon.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #100 on: February 04, 2016, 11:19:47 PM »
I didn't really like Inaba ether, mainly due to the way Eirin treated Reisen, sorry but abusive relationships aren't funny. Ever.
And imo the only canonical parts in that manga was Kaguya's personality and that chapter with the Moonbitch (I can't be bothered to remember her name).
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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2016, 11:31:07 PM »
And imo the only canonical parts in that manga was Kaguya's personality and that chapter with the Moonbitch (I can't be bothered to remember her name).

The fast-growing bamboo is kinda confirmed to be canon in a win-quote in Hisoutensoku.

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #102 on: February 05, 2016, 01:42:09 AM »
I didn't really like Inaba ether, mainly due to the way Eirin treated Reisen, sorry but abusive relationships aren't funny. Ever.
And imo the only canonical parts in that manga was Kaguya's personality and that chapter with the Moonbitch (I can't be bothered to remember her name).

The abusive relationship is still canon as of FS though.

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #103 on: February 05, 2016, 01:56:23 AM »
The abusive relationship is still canon as of FS though.

Well, fuck Eirin then. Abusive Bitch. At least Yukari has a excuse for her horrible treatment of Ran, Eirin's just cruel for no real reason.

EDIT: Just to let you guys know, Yukari's a horrible bitch too.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 02:01:55 AM by the old guy »
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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #104 on: February 05, 2016, 03:20:23 AM »
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Well, fuck Eirin then. Abusive Bitch. At least Yukari has a excuse for her horrible treatment of Ran, Eirin's just cruel for no real reason.

I think you are getting it backwards. Yukari has a bad excuse for her terrible treatment of Ran. Eirin actually has a good excuse for her treatment of Reisen.

Reisen's attitude is one of the biggest reasons why Reisen needs discipline. Reisen cannot get around the idea that she is supposed to be equal to the other rabbits, even if the other residents more than once indicated that is the case.
Her abusive behavior towards the rabbits is the reason why she is being treated poorly. Many residents of Eientei more than once told her that everyone is supposed to be somewhat equals.

Note that Kaguya never orders the rabbits, while Reisen does. Reisen never has any authority to do such things. It was never given to her at any time in the series. But because she is a moon rabbit, she thinks she is superior to the earth rabbits, so therefore takes command, when that is and has never been the case.

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2016, 04:52:02 AM »
Reisen's attitude is one of the biggest reasons why Reisen needs discipline. Reisen cannot get around the idea that she is supposed to be equal to the other rabbits, even if the other residents more than once indicated that is the case.
You know what....your right, Reisen is kind of an ass and does kind of deserves it, in a way. But i still can't help but disagree with Eirin, if a child is being a prick, the right action should not be to spank them, that just teachs them to not get caught.
But, i will admit that you made my opinion of Eirin improve a little bit. Bravo.

Oh and agreed about Yukari, she used to be my top fav but her abuse of Ran made my opinion of her worsen, she's now at the bottom. (Youmu's my number 1 now.)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 04:59:19 AM by the old guy »
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CyberAngel

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2016, 07:56:32 AM »
...Except in FS Reisen helped humans on her own volition, with no traces of superiority in her behaviour. And was still punished.

About Yukari and Ran, there IS a good excuse. Strict subordination is mandatory for the shikigami link. Reisen acting superior, however, had no effect except making her look like an ass. Of course, whether that excuses physical abuse is questionable at best, but Yukari's reason is at least a little bit more justified than Eirin's.

Drake

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2016, 08:40:53 AM »
today i learned physical violence is okay when it's disciplinary

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Tengukami

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2016, 09:01:34 AM »
today i learned physical violence is okay when it's disciplinary

Yeah this. Please bear in mind some people have good reasons for disliking some of the abusive stuff from canon. It really doesn't need moral justification, for a lot of good real-life reasons...

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Drake

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2016, 09:26:58 AM »
Making it clear I'm fine with this being a thing in the series with in-universe justification, just that defending it becomes pretty funny in this respect lol
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 09:28:54 AM by Drake »

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2016, 03:20:57 PM »
I like that aspect of Yukari in an "I like fictional evil people" kind of way.  Her justification for it ("I'm doing it because if I don't, she might endanger herself!  I'm doing it out of love!") is just one of the few examples in Touhou that show that everyones' fear and dislike of Yukari and her utterly absurd sense of morality is absolutely justified.   Kinda like how a child abuser might justify that their beatings were done out of love for the good of the child (although that's just an analogy.  Yukari's abuse of Ran probably isn't on that level because Ran is a youkai that's a LOT more durable and culturally violent than a child and also voluntarily got into that relationship, but it's at least eerily near that line of thinking).  Most of the other times characters express their dislike for Yukari, it kinda comes off as some kind of "Informed ability" where she's supposed to be kinda a @$@# but since she doesn't really do things that are THAT bad, it feels like they're disliking and distrusting her just because she's weird.

But then,  with nothing more than just circumstantial evidence, I tend to believe that Touhou's backstory is extremely dark compared to the paradise of Gensokyo in present times.  I like to think that Yukari is an "ends justify the means" kind of character that, over the course of Gensokyo's history, did things a lot worse than animal/child abuse (Yukari claims she does it because she "loves" Ran and claims she's doing it for Rans own safety.  Now note that Yukari "loves" Gensokyo too and constantly looking out for its own safety...).  Ran's implication that there was some kind of faustian bargain between the two being another rare outright (rather than just implied) example.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 04:02:49 PM by Tiamat »

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2016, 12:54:07 AM »
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You know what....your right, Reisen is kind of an ass and does kind of deserves it, in a way. But i still can't help but disagree with Eirin, if a child is being a prick, the right action should not be to spank them, that just teachs them to not get caught.
But, i will admit that you made my opinion of Eirin improve a little bit. Bravo.

I don't disagree with you that Eirin is overly harsh. I mean there are times that Reisen cannot get up after punishment, that is pretty bad. But I think that stems from Reisen being Eirin's student. Different standards for your disciple than other people and all that.

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2016, 08:57:59 AM »
I'm thinking that the thing to keep in mind is that we are dealing with Gensokyo here which is a land blocked off by a mystical barrier and is isolated from the rest of the world (out world). Gensokyo is very much still in a traditional Japanese conservative state of culture and so it is very different from our more liberal worldview in our world. Seriously, feudal Japan was known for doing some messed up things during its time.

Lets keep in mind here that Touhou's cast all have questionable morals. I mean, most humans and youkai are all happy to Danmaku battle each other at the drop of a hat with barely any justification to do so. I like that all the characters are not strictly good guys and bad guys. Even the two main heroines Reimu and Marisa are not squeaky clean good guys. Reimu is known to just exterminate youkai whenever it suits her in a genocidal mindset and Marisa is a kleptomaniac who pokes her nose into everybody's business for her own reasons... and I love them for it.

Quote
**** Yukari, **** Eirin blah blah blah!

I consider Yukari deliberately tearing a hole in the boundary in PCB and Eirin replacing the real moon with a fake one for her own selfish reasons in IN to be worse than simply beating their subordinates. But hey, they are both still 'my waifu!' tier to me because of who they are as people/youkai, not by what they have done. Nobody is purely an antagonist in Touhou (except maybe Utsuho).

Tengukami

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2016, 11:06:13 AM »
Pretty sure we're all aware Gensokyo is a fictional backwater with different moral standards. Which is exactly why the fictional abuse that goes on there does not need moral justification. These are mythical creatures beating the shit out of each other; they don't need actual real-world rationales argued for their behalf. I have zero desire to apply "liberal worldview" standards to the flying magic girl paradise, nor do I think their violent behavior requires moral rationalisation. It's Gensokyo.

All that said, the mixed good and bad within most of the characters is indeed what adds to how fascnating the place is. Sure makes for some at times unpredictable storylines.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 11:12:07 AM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2016, 01:59:48 PM »
You can't let yourself be held back by common sense in Gensokyo, right!?  :V

Still, after their glorious and brilliantly patterned beat downs, they sit down to have tea/sake and laugh it off. The ending to SSiB comes to mind.

Tengukami

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2016, 07:11:32 PM »
For real. How many world leaders have tea parties with each other after waging war against each other is finished? Advantage: Gensokyo.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

PK

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #116 on: February 06, 2016, 07:30:04 PM »
The ending to SSiB comes to mind.
Yukari's mind-scarring grin to Eirin doesn't sound that friendly :V

Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2016, 12:48:43 AM »
Quote
Reimu is known to just exterminate youkai whenever it suits her in a genocidal mindset and Marisa is a kleptomaniac who pokes her nose into everybody's business for her own reasons... and I love them for it.

It is the opposite case. Reimu is supposed to exterminate every single youkai she meets, but she doesn't. That is why her reputation with the humans are not so good.
Her attitude towards youkai are far more kind than any other human's attitude towards them.

cuc

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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2016, 03:15:12 AM »
Let's just say, the first chapter of VFiS can teach you what ZUN's "heartwarming" means, and why it's a bad idea to look for examples about, or judge the characters on how to conduct one's life in Touhou.

Hirasaka tweeted:
1. The individual images of VFiS Chapter 1's color page artwork: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

2. In the previous fairies manga, Sunny's hair was represented by pure white on B&W pages. Hirasaka always regretted not shading Sunny's hair, but find it inappropriate to make such a change midway. From VFiS on, her hair will be shaded.

3. LoLK had not been released when they decided to resume the fairies manga, so there was no plan to introduce Clownpiece. It was good timing to have a new fairy debut at the moment.
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Re: 東方三月精 ~ Visionary Fairies in Shrine. "Gensokyo's Weakest Are Back."
« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2016, 04:14:03 AM »
jeez this thread sure did go off the rails, anyways the only thing i think i can add is that i guess i don't actually really hate Eirin and Yukari, maybe as people i hate them, but they are interesting as characters.

And yeah Starzword is right about Reimu, she is not genocidal, as damnaku is very clearly non-lethal. She's not an fucking inquisitor from Warhammer 40k, guys.

(although that's just an analogy.  Yukari's abuse of Ran probably isn't on that level because Ran is a youkai that's a LOT more durable and culturally violent than a child and also voluntarily got into that relationship, but it's at least eerily near that line of thinking)
The only good thing about Yukari's beatings of Ran is the possibility that it stops ran from going psycho and start attacking random humans, but even then i can't help but get a sick taste in my mouth from Yukari's treatment of Ran, IMHO.
I'd still argue that Eirin's treatment of Resien is still worse however, because as far as we know Ran hasn't been beaten so hard tat she is unable to walk.
And honestly "Gensokyo has different morals" is a shitty justification for Yukari and Eirin's abusiveness, i mean, Aya in-universe objectived to yukari's treatment of ran. Even in gensokyo its considered wrong.

(AND while moral relativism is okay for fictional works like, it is a harmful thing to do in real life, i mean, can you imagine someone saying "Its okay for Sadui Araba to not allow women to drive because its their culture!", and you not having a problem with that? Probably not. That had nothing to do with the conversation but i just wanted to get that off my chest.)
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