Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F

[Seraphic Shou]

Any thoughts on this?

 I'll be praying to Kanako and Suwako  for this to done in the plus disk.  :dragonforce:

[Ghaleon]

Eh I thought kogasa was actually better than average.. yeah sure she can't land terror that well, but that nuke that reduces mind is amazing. because it's damage formula is not bad, she has arm twisting so elements aren't an issue for her, and that mnd-debuff *FREAKIN ALWAYS LANDS*.. I mean not even hina can push a debuff on someone as well as kogasa, that's not an exageration. Maybe they patch/ruined that feature since I played though, I dunno. I just know it always landed on any boss always, even bosses that could consistantly resist debuffs like 10 times in a row from everyone else. I didn't even make kogasa that debuff-subclass either ffs. Plus that's all wrapped up in a nice package that does NOT have poor defenses.

I think this is really important because laby2, unlike 1, kinda REQUIRES the player to minimize enemy defenses and/or maximize op formulas like nitori/parsee/hina/etc. But average characters against endgame bosses not taking advantage of frankly near game-breaking combos see a lot of 0s by the end.

As for Marisa, I'm not really comparing her to nitori exactly, I'm just saying her master spark rarely hits harder than pretty much ANY decent nuke in that game because the piercing formula is so bad, even after I used kogasa to neuter enemy mnd defense! And yes I'd spam concentration on her for awhile too (I wouldn't really do 100% like in laby1 because it uses more mana in 2 and takes more time, but I'd generally get it to about 60% or so)

[Kirin no Sora]

And that's why I'm thinking about Marisa having Piercing Attack, so that 20% of of the damage output of her Spark deals damage regardless of defenses, so it's a bit better as a nuke.

What do you think of the stuff that I wrote on my previous post, Ghaleon?

[ZoomyTsugumi]

you guys make laby2 balance sound scary and bad :s


also i'm gonna end up overgrinded for Tam's Foe at this rate cos Nitori won't fuckin show up goddamn.

[Electroll]

Does anyone know where to get Smasher Mjolnir and Midgard's Tooth?

[Ghaleon]

And that's why I'm thinking about Marisa having Piercing Attack, so that 20% of of the damage output of her Spark deals damage regardless of defenses, so it's a bit better as a nuke.

What do you think of the stuff that I wrote on my previous post, Ghaleon?

Like i said, I haven't played much, nor for some time, so frankly I don't feel qualified to elaborate on someone else's observations beyond stating my own first impressions... that said, 20% guaranteed damage in marisa's formula for master spark for my own playthru... well.. 20% is much more than 0%, but she still would fail to impress me unless I fail to recognize a factor or whanot, which I admit is entirely possible. That said, I doubt she'd come close to being a nitori, hina, parsee, etc even at 40%, but wouldn't feel confident to argue otherwise if someone would against it.

[Serela]

Okay, let's see... so the subject was Marisa/Youmu/Momiji/Ran/Kogasa/Suwako. I feel like your analysis of Marisa, Ran, and Youmu were about right. Marisa and Ran aren't bad, but a little underwhelming- at least Ran is saved by Yakumo team synergies. Her low-delay Soaring En-No-Ozuno is pretty strong with sorc Row Attack Strengthening, but not -awesome- or anything. I'd use Marisa if I was using Alice (dear god Alice is nice with that +40% magic bonus, what?!)

Momiji is actually a fairly attractive bulky attacker, I think- because her stats are actually -amazing-. She doesn't have the passives and moves to back it up that the other amazing tanks have, but her sheer stats are among the best in the game (If she doesn't have highest def in game, she's only like second place, with high hp and good mnd), and that lends her to be a -very- nice bulky attacker. She's got Instant Attack, which is a GREAAAAT passive (some people like subbing her as healer whether she's tanking or attacking just because of the security of insta-heals), along with several other pretty useful ones like the ACC boost and Accelerate, and her greatest weakness (lack of offense variety) can be solved by the array of physical subclasses available. I'm not planning on bringing the plus disk endgame passives into this discussion but she does get a particularly good one (as does marisa) that would drastically raise her stats.

Kogasa, as mentioned earlier, has the attractive passive Sheer Force. Because of the already wonderful accuracy of her MND debuff (and it's high strength ontop of that) it will basically always, always land, even compared to Hina, and with how many high def/mnd bosses there are holding you back, that's actually pretty sweet. TRR is nice, but she can put out plenty fine numbers even without it... don't hyperfocus on one cool looking passive. With Sheer Force, she can also sub guardian for a doofy, yet, I think possibly very-effective-on-many-bosses (NOT all, but the wiki helps you know which) SHK build using shield bash. No, don't use Karakasa Surprise, it doesn't work well >_> She can... sorta be a tank in some cases. A lot of her passives encourage her to do so, even if her stat layout isn't -entirely- friendly for it, so it can be a situational case for when you just want Sheer Force SHK and not damage.

Re-quipping Suwako isn't as bad as it sounds; there's a LOT of good atk/mag combo equipment so it's mostly just level bonuses, which you often have to swap for bosses anyway. More importantly, you're focusing too hard on single tools they're given. Oh boy, she's got a passive that's hard to use. Okay, then don't care about using it if it's so hard to use. Suwako is one of the strongest characters in the game and puts out nearly Flan-grade damage with Long Arms Long Legs, it's only that it's not all-target. If you use the moriya family but not the SDM family in your team, she'll beat Flan, even.

And sometimes I switch nukers into a weird slot just because it fits better with the current situation and they're getting swapped back out before the boss moves anyway (or I'm fine with just sacrificing them at the moment, but that's rarer). That's when you can use suwako's silly passive and get 36% extra damage. She's a silly character with a silly passive, but she's strong as all getout even without it.

[Shadowlupus]

Magatama's Shadow beaten without using any defense-ignoring skill or Diva Aya subclass. By the way, this is also done at the challenge level by kicking some party members out, using only 9 people (with 3 being bench warmers.)



Since Yuugi's Knock Out in Three Steps is buffed up in the Plus Disk Trial, I don't know if this strategy is still doable in the original version. I used only these 4 front liners, Momiji and Sanae (for healing.)

Basically, Aya (1155 Speed) went first and spent 2 turns buffing up Iku's and Yuugi's speed respectively and then use instant-turn skill on Hina to debuff the Magatama. Iku (554 Speed, with maxed Lightning Fish skill) then buffs Yuugi twice in a row due to Thundercloud Stickleback's low-delay. Once Yuugi 's ATK buff is maxed out and the Magatama is fully debuffed. Yuugi cast Knock Out in Three Steps, dealing around 300k - 400k per hit. (Her ATK was 40938 at that time. All of her relevant skills were also maxed out.)

After Yuugi having done her job, Aya immediately went after her. I then used Aya to switch Yuugi with Momiji with instant-attack combo, putting Yuugi back at 7500 ATB again, getting ready for another Knock Out. The 75%, 50%, 25% HP threshold is essentially a free turn for you to keep wailing on the Magatama since they all have high delay. Thus, rinse and repeat the above strategy until you win.

Once again, where's my achievement for doing this now, game?

[Procrastinating]

Hello, I'm trying to analyze LoTH2 (because I honestly think it's worthwhile). Enemies, spells, chars, skills, loads and loads of stat numbers, etc. While not making Excel sheets yet, I've started by making a list of all the chars, their possible roles, and their (supposed) primary roles. This of course without taking subclasses into account. It would be this: http://pastebin.com/iVbCuUuF (be sure to click raw). I'm looking for suggestions, such as:
-Does everything make sense?
-Are there better categories to separate the chars into?
-What the hell is Ran?
I just want to more or less understand how this game was made (at least, as far as my non-Japanese speaking person can go). Also, if anyone has a changelog for the web trial I'd be thankful. I heard Aya got nerfed?

[Serela]

The changes were listed inthread a looooong time ago... the biggest one, I'd say, is Byakuren's buff got like halved in power or something. That makes a preeeeetty big balance difference lategame where before she just utterly outclassed any other buffer. Some characters have a couple new passives/skills even apart from the actual new postgame stuff (I think Nazrin and Cirno? among others), a couple people got buffs (Utsuho got a good bit better iirc), etc.

too lazy to hunt down the whole list though.

[Marbychu]

Also, if anyone has a changelog for the web trial I'd be thankful. I heard Aya got nerfed?

Someone posted this a while back. I believe this is what you're looking for?: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1231810.html#msg1231810

Also I'm sad because it's already taking a long time for the Plus Disk to come out and it'll be even longer before someone makes an English patch for it. But it'll definitely be worth the wait; I've really enjoyed this game.

[Procrastinating]

Yeah, I've already read through most of the topic, I just wondered if another list was out there. At least I've passed down the stats of everyone to an Excel sheet, which is almost completely useless on its own for things besides admiring Kanako's bulk. Wish Sky Creation worked with her on the second or third slots.

[nyttyn]

So I was messing around with equipment, trying to figure out what to give to who, and I noticed that speed barely changes when I equip a piece of speed modifying equipment. And beyond that, Equipment doesn't seem to provide nearly as high of a increase as the % would suggest - like a 2039 HP Sanae should be gaining 978 HP from a +48% HP equipment, but instead is gaining a little bit over 500. Is there something I'm missing about how equipment works in this game?

[Sophilia]

The equipment doesn't take into account level up bonuses, Patchy levels, or other equipment: it's just a fraction of your base stats.  As an example, if you have 100 levels in Magic, you've more than tripled your magic stat, but your +50% MAG equipment is still running on your base value, so your actual gain is much lower than 50%.

Speed is also calculated much differently from other stats, which becomes very evident in the late game.  For instance, a statistical speed of 700 is actually only 4 times as fast as a statistical speed of 100, and to double that speed, you'd need to have a stat of 2900.  Though buffs in battle do actually bypass this layer of calculation, as someone with a full speed buff will in fact fill their bars twice as quickly.

[nyttyn]

Oh, alright. That makes sense, thank you!

[Serela]

In LoT2 equipment bonuses factor in after some of the other stuff, so they provide a much more tangible effect. But in LoT1, yeah, the farther you get, the smaller bonuses get... which is part of the reason that, by the time you're into postgame, anyone who cares is probably gonna be about immune to status effects- the resist is worth more than a paltry 5% stat increase.

[nyttyn]

Speaking of LoT1, I just started on it recently! And...Um, wow. It's kind of mind blowing just how...primitive it is in comparison? It's still reasonably gripping, but wow it's amazing how much of a leap 2 is on a lot of fronts. And the game over penalty sure is harsh. But that's not the point of this post! I was just hoping a LoT1 vet could please answer a few questions.

1) What's up with the MP system in this game?  My party members are running dry incredibly quickly - is there any way to counterbalance this that i'm missing?

2) Are there any party members who are just unviablly bad or otherwise exceptionally awful? I heard 1's balance in that regard is a lot shakier, so it'd be nice to know if there's anyone I should avoid for my own sanity.

3) Is there anyone too good I should just avoid entirely? Like, Diva Aya tier or close.

4)  Finally, is there anything I should know going into 1 from 2? I know 2 is a relatively forgiving game, so I figure 1 might have some more strict party comp rules or general exploration strats to succeed I'm unaware of.

[Sophilia]

1) MP starts pretty low, but as it goes up with level, it becomes less of an issue relatively quickly.  There is one late game fight that could put a stress on it, but as long as you rotate your characters effectively, you shouldn't have much problem past the first few floors.
2) The worst characters are probably Eirin and Okuu, but they're still quite usable, they're just obsolete compared to other characters that do their roles better.
3) The best characters are probably Meiling, Iku, Nitori, and Reimu, but none of them are game breaking monsters individually, since they're all specialized role characters.  Meiling is the tank, Iku is the offensive buffer, Nitori is the DPS, and Reimu is the defensive utility.
4) Evasion doesn't work.  Level up and library bonuses are permanent, so have an idea where you're going with your characters long-term.  There are much less viable tanks in LoT1, so try to have one of Meiling, Komachi, or Tenshi on your squad.  Fire and paralysis resistances are a good idea.  Other than that, just use what you've learned from the second game and you should be fine.  It's a bit tougher, but at the same time the balance is better since there aren't as many mechanical exploits or ridiculously defensive bosses.

[jester147]

One does not simply survive everything without Reimu.

Also, more things to think of:
-The aforementioned evasion doesn't work and level up bonus and library points being permanent
-SPD in LoT1 has different formula for the characters, while the monsters have flat SPD like in LoT2. Say you have 1000 SPD, it will be around 400 flat SPD. Though some say SPD buffs multiplies the flat SPD not the stats SPD
-Dying is permanent, no 10TP penalty. Just leave and enter to recover. Be careful when trash clearing, or you'll be having a bad time.
-Less ailments and affinities. No PHY and DRK, and just PSN, PAR, SIL, and DTH. There is no SIL inflicting spellcards on our side, only enemies can use it.

And many others I can't think of.

[Serela]

Komachi isn't a good tank in LoT1, wha'chu talkin' bout. But yeah extremely recommended to have Meiling or Tenshi first slot sit-in.

Speed buffs don't seem to multiply the flat speed, but I guess I could be wrong. It'd be better balance-wise, certainly.

Unlike LoT2, the back slots are actually, for the most part, pretty safe for squishy people (Especially the common "Squishy but MND is good"). LoT2 had WAY more physical alltargets or composite-y things and it just wasn't, but in LoT1 all-targetting skills are almost exclusively magic, with a few composites and a few -rare- physicals.

In LoT1, "proper" row attacks are more common on enemies and all function like they do on your characters; that is, row attacks deal the most damage to the leftmost enemy/character, and drop off in power towards the right. Even squishy mages can tend to take that 4th slot hit. Composite attacks are also different; they hit the enemy's DEF -AND- their MND, except for Sakuya's ones but they barely use magic anyway. This makes composite attacks harder to use, but in general, LoT1 has very few bosses with superhigh defenses so it's not as badas it'd be in LoT2- if you just buff up the composite attacks can work great. DEF/MND debuffs are almost worthless here too, by the way.

All debuffs have the same resistance unlike LoT2, so if they resist one, they resist them all (aka atk/mag/spd are not different resistances). There is also no debuff accuracy power with moves, so if it has a debuff or status (not DTH) then it will have the same accuracy as any other move that inflicts it... just a different effect strength/duration if it hits.

[nyttyn]

Thank you all, the advice is really appreciated! I'm probably going to work on LoT1 for a little while, because 2 is serving as a major road block at the moment.

Namely, floor 20.

hp to 1 who also give every enemy a all buff, fast row attacks, exceptionally fast instant death spammers, massive healing kademas, enormous damage behemoths who absolutely need you to use someone who ignores defenses (iku for me) on them, enemies who punish my mys/drk heavy party whyyyy

[RegalStar]

From my somewhat limited experience with SPD buffs, I'm almost definitely sure that they affect flat speed, not stats speed (which monsters don't have anyways).

Anyways, at least during the main game Reimu alone cannot really keep your party healthy without heavy SPD buffs (likely from Aya) to make her SP recover faster in the back. Minoriko does a much better job at healing. Use them both to maximize your party's ability to survive.

[qazmlpok]

From my somewhat limited experience with SPD buffs, I'm almost definitely sure that they affect flat speed, not stats speed (which monsters don't have anyways).

Anyways, at least during the main game Reimu alone cannot really keep your party healthy without heavy SPD buffs (likely from Aya) to make her SP recover faster in the back. Minoriko does a much better job at healing. Use them both to maximize your party's ability to survive.

I can't remember if I actually tested it or not, but I'm fairly certain speed buffs work on player speed, not actual speed.

And monsters do have a player speed as well - since it's just a single value for all characters and enemies. It's just that the database only lists their actual speed, and doesn't bother with the conversion factor.

Also this isn't a change in LoT2 - 1 and 2 use the exact same speed formula, IIRC.

[RegalStar]

Well I tried to test it with my ***WINNER*** video where he used a lot of Wand of Speed and I still had my save (which means access to my characters' speed).

At 9:29 He used HP restoring medicine, which has a post-use of 2500 (meaning 7500 to next turn). After this turn he had a SPD buff of 25%.

If SPD buff affects player speed, he would have 3540 * 1.25 = 4425 player speed, which means 980 effective speed, which means it takes 8 CT to get his next turn.
If SPD buff affects actual speed, he would have 880 * 1.25 = 1100 effective speed, which means 7 CT to get his next turn.

One CT after, Minoriko, who has 2115 player speed (685 effective speed) used Wish for an Abundant Harvest, which has a post-use of 5000, meaning she needs 8CT to get her next turn.

A bunch of stuff happens in the next n (6 or 7) CTs, then WINNER receives his next turn and uses Sword of Light, but Minoriko survives. On the next CT Rinnosuke gets his turn, but Minoriko still hasn't gotten hers yet. Since there is at least two CT between the Sword of Light and Minoriko's next turn, it follows that it took six CTs for WINNER to get that Sword of Light turn after Minoriko's heal, which means he took 7 CTs between HP-restoring Medicine and Sword of Light, which means that SPD buff affects actual speed.

Now it's possible that not 1 but 2 CT happened between HP-restoring medicine and Minoriko's first turn, and I really don't have definitive calculations to support that (I don't really feel like running through the entire video just to calculate what CT the battle is on). However, if you rewind the video by two turns (WINNER's moves were Wand of Speed -> Ringil -> Sword of Light -> HP-restoring Medicine -> Sword of Light), when Wriggle gets her turn between WINNER's Ringil and Sword of Light, his gauge looks pretty much full enough to get his next turn on the next CT (at that point he had 40% SPD buff, which means over 1000 effective SPD either way). Sword of Light at 32% is 6 CT regardless, and Wriggle then performed two switches in a row (she had 2705 SPD which means 772 effective speed, so 4 CT per switch), with Minoriko getting her heal turn on the same CT as Wriggle's turn after her second switch, so it really makes sense that this particular point in time is only one CT after HP-restoring Medicine.

tl;dr version of (what I thought) the flow of clockticks:

CT0: WINNER uses Ringil. (4CT)
CT3: Wriggle performs a switch. (4CT)
CT4: WINNER uses Sword of Light. (6CT)
CT7: Wriggle switches Minoriko in. (4CT for both Wriggle and Minoriko)
CT10: WINNER uses HP-Restoring Medicine. (7CT if SPD buff affects actual speed, 8CT if SPD buff affects player speed)
CT11: Minoriko uses Wish for an Abundant Harvest. (8CT)
CT17: WINNER uses Sword of Light.
CT18: Rinnosuke gets a turn here, indicating that Sword of Light happened before CT18, which infers that his 25% SPD buff affected his actual speed.

[qazmlpok]

If you have a sufficiently high level Chen, you can have her act every single Tick after using Idaten the first time. Trying to go off a youtube video probably isn't best for accuracy. I don't know if it's still 30 FPS or not, though.

I'd try it myself but my install is apparently broken. I really should try to fix that someday...

[Serela]

Yeahh it'd be easier to test it on player characters with your own speed buffs.

[novice259]

Hello everyone! I have a couple of questions regarding LoT2 that I have yet to find answers for, I hope someone more experienced can answer them for me:

1. Enhanced Poison Wasp - I would like a few suggestions about who to take and what builds are best for them. During my test run, everyone was around lvl 110 and everyone, including my tanks Komachi, Mokou and Byakuren, was outsped and died in 2 - 3 hits. I'm guessing the Wasp's attacks only hit NTR and WND affinities, unless it has more attacks I never saw.

2. I noticed that my Main Equip list is missing one item. Looking at the wiki, it is the Modified Taser that increases PAR effects but I have no idea what drops it or which floor it's located on. Does anyone know if it is obtainable?

3. Is it possible to craft postgame Sub Equips? I'm thinking I need to recruit everyone first but that's just a guess.

So yeah, that's all the questions I have for now. Thanks in advance for your help.

[Shadowlupus]

1. Postgame bosses are ridiculously hard due to their super-inflated stats unless you utilize both buffs and debuffs so bring strong buffers and/or debuffers: Hina (use maxed Biorythm to debuff all of enemies' stats.), Keine (group buffs) or Iku, (80% single target atk/mag buff) Even if you use those people, you still have to grind at 20F until you are around Level 150 then delevel OR kick your party member out with A button at human village if you want to fight them at challenge level.

The Poison Wasp usually alternates between its weak AoE Wind spell and its 1 single-target Nature poison attack or weak AoE Nature poison spell. (Attack = hits DEF, Spell = hits MND) Its attack stats is also ridiculously high so bring Wriggle with around 200-300 Nature resistance and around 10000 DEF and MND and use her as a tank. She will soak most of the damage (takes 7k damage if her Defense is unbuffed) and help reduce Poison effect on your party.

Now, its Defense is also ridiculously high but lower Mind. Your Physical attacker should be around 20k - 30k and the wasp's Defense needs to be debuffed (you don't need it to be -50% all the time but 30% - 50% are generally okay) to even pierce its high Defense. Also, if you can, max out your main attacking skill to further improve its damage. For reference, in my Plus Disk Trial run, Kasen with 26k with maxed Cursed Arm skill, maxed attack buff can deal 200k with her Cursed Arm if the wasp's defense is fully debuffed. Yuugi with 35k ATK and maxed attack buff can take out 1/4 HP of the fully debuffed wasp with maxed KOiTS.

In short, you need to use both buffs and debuffs if you want to get past the postgame bosses. The last shadow boss is extremely BS though.


2. You have to drop from the left hole in the northern part of 15F.

3. There are only 2 craftable post-game sub equip: Genji's Glove and Zeus Armor. Both of them requires Dragon's Mane as one of the materials. Two of them can be found in chests 11F Extra Areas (2 Shadow bosses defeated) and 16F Extra Areas (48 party members required.) More can be dropped from Dragon Larva in 16F Extra area where you have passed the rock in that area. (I think it appears frequently if you are at the center of that area.)


Oh, by the way, the wiki's bestiary has all of the enemies' stats listed.

[Serela]

Swapping in Wriggle won't work super great and is sort of a pain if you haven't been using her, which you probably haven't. Drop a nature accessory on one of your tanks.

Byakuren is the best buffer by far for postgame and almost completely obsoletes other options. This will be true until plus disk comes out and hits her with the nerf bat, which has already been confirmed by the trial.

Enhanced Poison Wasp is REALLY strong, it's true; it's just a matter of being able to get your buffs (and hopefully debuffs) up before critical people die and after that it's manageable. You need to be able to throw up defense buffs -immediately- so Yukari/Reimu/Keine in the front along with Byakuren and whoever your proper tank is, and probably Hina too. You need Hina in your postgame party if you don't want to suffer horribly. Reisen could maybe substitute but she's really not as good.

[Spiffspoo]

The first 2 or 3 post game enhanced bosses can be DTHed.  Regular enemies are annoying too and the last 2 enhanced bosses can be harder than the secret bosses because of their resistances.