Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F  (Read 297390 times)

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2015, 11:10:25 AM »
It's harder to prepare those things at 100% if your party is full of squishies, but if it's not you can really take your time setting that phase up.
What exactly do you mean by a defensive party? I know you're using a hyperbole, but obviously no one really thinks a team full of nukers is going to get them through the game. If there were ever people that actually thought that, they'd learn very quickly that its not possible.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 11:15:38 AM by jaxter0987 »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2015, 12:53:29 PM »
I have no idea of what it could be, but: is he using Windows 8 or Windows 10 which hates everything? Tried updating graphics and/or audio drivers? Tried Japanese locale just in case? DirectX, too, might be an issue. I don't know if LoT would crash because of that but try making sure DirectX 9 is installed.
He has Windows 8, all of his drivers are up to date, and he's tried japanese locale the whole time. I'll tell him about DirectX, I guess.

Updating DirectX didn't seem to really change anything, so we're both at a loss.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2015, 09:11:39 PM »
What exactly do you mean by a defensive party? I know you're using a hyperbole, but obviously no one really thinks a team full of nukers is going to get them through the game. If there were ever people that actually thought that, they'd learn very quickly that its not possible.

By defensive party, I just mean one with more characters that are known for 'being able to take hits', than those who are 'squishy'....and actually, most people have expressed over the years that glass cannon oriented parties are better. I'm not talking about 100% glass cannons without a single tank. But lots of people seem to think you only need like 2 tanks and the rest glass cannons...and by only need, I mean they think that's the flat out superior party makeup.

So they'll have a party with an inordinate amount of squishy nukers like chen, and nitori (she's not especially squishy but she's not really 'can take hits'y either in lot1), and aya, and kaggy, and yuugi (obviously tanky on physical bosses, but the vast majority of bosses have decent aoe magic nukes, or random target magic nukes), etc.

They also have little appreciation for damage dealers who have higher staying power like remilia, eiki, I wanna say kanako but she really is bad at dealing damage lol...not too many come to think of it, I kinda put patchy in here too. She's kinda like yuugi but there are far less bosses who can abuse aoe physical nukes than those with magic, so patchy CAN be pretty stable in the back against bosses unelss they have needle parade or arrow rain.

It's not just about which character though... most people also think that you should just always pick mag/atk for level up bonuses on anyone that isn't a tank or support. They would NEVER make a mnd build patchy, or a def build remilia, etc...they think they can't do damage if you do that..but they certainly can, and the benefits are actually really good. For example, a mnd build patchy will take 0 magic damage from virtually everything (even kedamageddon's ultimate nuke if you put necronomicon on her too... Ia ctually beat it by having patchy SOLO it and take 0s all the time), and because silent selene has good mnd piercing, her damage does't get neutered THAT much against bosses with reasonable mnd defense. Similarly, a mnd build eiki is good because her nuke pierces completely, it will not do that much less damage, but she'll become quite tanky.

Even kaggy makes a good mnd build I think because buddha's stone bowl is potentially just as damaging as her spirit nuke, moreso even if used on someone like nitori or suwako against yukari or whatever, and it doesn't benefit from mag at all. So mnd kaggy can ALMOST be as tanky as patchy against non-physical bosses (btw you may think most bosses can snipe the back with a physical nuke like slash or regular attack, they can, but even patchy can take a hit like that due to back row mitigation. 'snipe', and the odd back target 'double slash/steel slasher' are really the only attacks I can really think of that will waste em, but those are rare as fuu (well back targeting slashes I mean).

Not really sure how that's hyperbole though.

Heck, I also see people express how useless they think ran's defensive buff is compared to her offensive one. I think they are both great. With her defensive one, it allows you to have a character out with a defense buff. But without it, if you rely on reimu or yukari or someone, you have to go thru the trouble of making sure they get just before reimu can buff, and that she can go before the boss can nuke, which can delay you a few rounds fairly often if you want to play it safe.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2015, 10:04:33 PM »
By defensive party, I just mean one with more characters that are known for 'being able to take hits', than those who are 'squishy'....and actually, most people have expressed over the years that glass cannon oriented parties are better. I'm not talking about 100% glass cannons without a single tank. But lots of people seem to think you only need like 2 tanks and the rest glass cannons...and by only need, I mean they think that's the flat out superior party makeup.
[...]
This, this so much.

Adding to your examples of Remilia and Patchouli, I love how these two characters play if built defensively:
DEF Yuugi is incredible until the late main game if you can overload her with elemental affinity equipment to make up for her low MND. I suppose her utility as a general tank who can go out even against magic will fall greatly in the post game, but Irremovable Shackles having a decently low delay works well for a tank and both Supernatural Phenomenon and Knock out in Three Steps having great defense piercing makes it so she can invest a lot in defense and still deal a lot of damage.
MND Kaguya is by far her best build. Buddha's Stone Bowl gives the turn to a good nuker, keeps their buffs refreshed and gives her a post act gauge of 50%, it's incredible! It's ridiculously better than Hourai Barrage. And Hourai Barrage ignoring defenses makes it so the MND focused build does not hinder her much when defense piercing is necessary.

And two characters that greatly surprised me in durability and usefulness when I actually used them seriously:
Full MAG Eirin with balanced/defensive equipment (Getitup V, Power Dragon Scalemail, Gold Cloth, Great Question's Mask etc) allows her to tank so much (she safely went to the first slot too many times), deal damage and heal when necessary. Her incredible bases makes it so she makes great use of those strong equipments and they make up for her slow levelling rate.
Full ATK Sakuya actually starts dealing decent damage unbuffed somewhere in the post game(!!) On top of that, if you give her balanced offensive/defensive equipment she is incredibly durable and can do some pretty awesome things with The World for turn manipulation if that kind of specialization is necessary.

You say Kanako is not very good at dealing damage, but CLD is actually a very good element at the time she's recruited. She's not as impressive as one could expect but I definitely think she's a worthy party member.

I'm actually uploading a playthrough in which I decided to use every single character in the game at least once and I use quite a few of those things. I'm already in the post game but, because I was uploading EO2U videos when I started playing, the playthrough is still at Disgusting Malice. I guess I'll post here when something interesting happens.

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2015, 12:06:46 AM »
The hyperbole was me reading too much into this:
It's harder to prepare those things at 100% if your party is full of squishies, but if it's not you can really take your time setting that phase up.
And you clarified that you didn't actually mean a full party of squishies with this, which kind of confirms it was a hyperbole.
By defensive party, I just mean one with more characters that are known for 'being able to take hits', than those who are 'squishy'....and actually, most people have expressed over the years that glass cannon oriented parties are better. I'm not talking about 100% glass cannons without a single tank. But lots of people seem to think you only need like 2 tanks and the rest glass cannons...and by only need, I mean they think that's the flat out superior party makeup.
In any case, at least I now understand what you meant.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 12:14:35 AM by jaxter0987 »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2015, 12:32:42 AM »
I admit my party configuration is kinda like that on both games, 2-3 tanks, 1-2 supporters (Even better if they are also the tanks) and the rest are nukers, if the tankers SOMEHOW die, all goes downhill (Hello rasetsu fists)

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2015, 03:20:51 AM »
Yeah I actually never really tried elemental resistance oriented tank strategies... I should next time.
As for Kanako, I realize her suiga has a good formula for cold but I just felt like it still didn't have power that really made up for how slow she is and how expensive the spell is.. one destroy magic or djinn storm or whatever and she's pretty useless for some time.

I actually think it's strange how people don't really like Marisa. I think most people try to use master spark at 100% mp-bonus efficiency all the time or whatever. But I find it pretty good if you just keep her mag up using concentrate and then use it. don't worry about 100% either, 60+ is fine. She's fast and you can really pump out sparks quite often if you don't worry about getting full mp for it. It's almost like she's a dpser in a secret 5th 'hidden' slot if you play her like that IMO... not to mention asteroid belt is a really effing good trash cleaner, aoe, good damage, and pierces defenses really well to the point that it's one of few moves that can damage stuff like helbeldr or whatever they're called at normal levels.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2015, 06:10:13 AM »
Full MAG Eirin with balanced/defensive equipment (Getitup V, Power Dragon Scalemail, Gold Cloth, Great Question's Mask etc) allows her to tank so much (she safely went to the first slot too many times), deal damage and heal when necessary. Her incredible bases makes it so she makes great use of those strong equipments and they make up for her slow levelling rate.

Defensively Built Eirin couldn't take a hit worth crap for me, how do you manage to tank with a full MAG Eirin?

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2015, 07:18:15 AM »
Defensively Built Eirin couldn't take a hit worth crap for me, how do you manage to tank with a full MAG Eirin?

what? Eirin has some of the best overall defenses in the game...not that I like her. Despite my appreciation for defense-oriented parties... Eirin's spellcard formulas are really quite incapable of contributing much if you build her for defense (and arguably offense IMO).

Are you talking about LoT1 here? Did you forget to level up her skillpoints?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2015, 10:34:43 AM »
As for Kanako, I realize her suiga has a good formula for cold but I just felt like it still didn't have power that really made up for how slow she is and how expensive the spell is.. one destroy magic or djinn storm or whatever and she's pretty useless for some time.
Ahh, yeah. That makes sense. She's great if you speed manipulate her to go with Kaguya or have Aya, though. (I largely find trying to buff your entire team's speed inefficient. But Aya's single target speed buff focused in a single person is pretty good to reduce post action delays.)

I actually think it's strange how people don't really like Marisa. I think most people try to use master spark at 100% mp-bonus efficiency all the time or whatever. But I find it pretty good if you just keep her mag up using concentrate and then use it. don't worry about 100% either, 60+ is fine. She's fast and you can really pump out sparks quite often if you don't worry about getting full mp for it. It's almost like she's a dpser in a secret 5th 'hidden' slot if you play her like that IMO... not to mention asteroid belt is a really effing good trash cleaner, aoe, good damage, and pierces defenses really well to the point that it's one of few moves that can damage stuff like helbeldr or whatever they're called at normal levels.
The problem is that people don't realize that minimum is the most efficient. The thing has a 700 MAG multiplier and then each 10 SP becomes 1%. Using a 320 SP Master Spark gives you a 16% damage multiplier, so you'll deal 1.16x damage. Using two 160 Master Sparks gives you 2x the damage!
If the MP conversion was into MAG multiplier and it had absurd damage multipliers, then it would be more worth it to wait. But as it is, you just load her up with decent SP recovery and "spam" it.
I still don't like her lol.

Defensively Built Eirin couldn't take a hit worth crap for me, how do you manage to tank with a full MAG Eirin?
what? Eirin has some of the best overall defenses in the game...not that I like her. Despite my appreciation for defense-oriented parties... Eirin's spellcard formulas are really quite incapable of contributing much if you build her for defense (and arguably offense IMO).

Are you talking about LoT1 here? Did you forget to level up her skillpoints?
She has incredible defense (and general stat) growths, but her level up rate is pretty bad. You gotta give her your best equipment and have her always properly library levelled if you want to see her being good.

And yeah, her spellcards won't be dealing nuke-tier damage even with a full MAG build, but what impressed me was how flexible she was. She's very bulky and can stay out against pretty much anything, Hourai Elixir overheals allow her to tank stuff she wouldn't be able to, if the team needs that, Galaxy in a Pot has a decent delay, which tanks always appreciate, her two elemental spellcards can deal good damage if they hit a weakness or inflict very good offensive debuffs, Astronomical Entombing has very few times in which it shines, but when it does she does pull out some really good damage.

The thing is that you can get away with the full MAG build and still be an off (and incredibly often main) tank. If you build her defensively, her damage will be very bad instead of passable and her only use will be Hourai Elixir. Which is not too bad but is not great, either. Mostly because of the post action gauge. It's a situational spell with very good applications (for example I used it on an incoming Rumia after Rinnosuke's initial attack so that she could survive his second one before having her defenses buffed). But it's better off not being her main thing.

And yeah, how the hell was your defensive Eirin not able to tank? For example mine had 12k HP and 7.3k, 8k defenses against the last boss just from equipments and level up bonuses at 55. For comparison, full MND Kaguya had 12k MND also at library 55.

During this playthrough my opinion of her went from thinking she was incredibly underwhelming to one of the best characters in the game.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 10:36:55 AM by Ryin »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2015, 01:37:37 PM »
I don't know. LoT1 in general is a lot more confusing to me than the second game, honestly. I'm still stuck on 18F because of how fast the enemy teams wipe me and how long it takes for me to kill them, it's insane.

I don't wanna sound silly, but... can anyone tell me a party configuration that is good for that floor? Mine doesn't seem to cut it because a lot of attacks either one/two shot me and I need like 6 different attacks to kill a single enemy.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 01:40:08 PM by Monothemeerp »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2015, 01:43:45 PM »
I don't know. LoT1 in general is a lot more confusing to me than the second game, honestly. I'm still stuck on 18F because of how fast the enemy teams wipe me and how long it takes for me to kill them, it's insane.

I don't wanna sound silly, but... can anyone tell me a party configuration that is good for that floor? Mine doesn't seem to cut it because a lot of attacks either one/two shot me and I need like 6 different attacks to kill a single enemy.
18F is kind of hell. The best solution for that floor, in my opinion, is to get a fast character capable of running away from the most dangerous battles and nuking the rest as efficiently as you can. The next floors battles are by far easier and you can make up for any lost exp in the 20F.
I think 17F is more exp/skill point efficient if you have to grind for Rinnosuke, too? I'm not sure about that part, though.

What is your team, by the way?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 01:48:56 PM by Ryin »

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2015, 08:45:58 PM »
Actually I never felt 18f trash is especially nasty except those shub nugguruths or whatever they are called.

17f trash on the other hand is brutal if your team lacks a good aoe physical nuke... Aoe not row. You are safe if you have mystia, aya, kanako, etc. But if you dont have someone who can aoe those crystals dead fast, eeep.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2015, 02:57:00 AM »
Its funny how renko went from "Best character in the game" on LoT1 to almost useless on Lot2, that galaxy stop PAR was too good to be true

Now for the second topic,In all my time i got watching all the threads, has anybody like seriously....used eirin at all? I have never seen her mentioned on a serious run or anything

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2015, 03:51:29 AM »
Its funny how renko went from "Best character in the game" on LoT1 to almost useless on Lot2, that galaxy stop PAR was too good to be true

Now for the second topic,In all my time i got watching all the threads, has anybody like seriously....used eirin at all? I have never seen her mentioned on a serious run or anything
I am! And she's fantastic! Like I said a few posts ago, she has: almost tank-like bulk with a full MAG investment and the best defensive/balanced equipment you can give her; Galaxy in a Pot for a relatively fast all around decent (emphasis on decent, not high) damage spellcard; Mercury Sea and Omoikane's Device for useful debuffs and situational good damage; Hourai Elixir for emergency heals and situational but incredibly useful overheal applications; Astronomical Entombing for huge damage in the rare cases a boss is weak to SPR or when a strong AoE is needed (also fantastic to spam in random encounters later on when she has SP to back it up).
I put her in the team after right after she joined, not really expecting much, and then I never even thought about taking her out. She requires some commitment in gearing her up excellently, but the investment is worth it.
And I'm recording the boss battles, so you'll be able to see her in action. I'm putting up one video a day, so it shouldn't take too long for her to appear. Today was Rumia.
And Renko didn't lose her best move: Charge! It's funny how everyone seems to be afraid of using the blatantly best buff in the game and I use it so much I have trouble using her other two moves.

This is what my team is looking like in the 29th floor, by the way: http://puu.sh/lku8X/1e4d88a2e6.jpg
Really loving every each one of these characters. I never had any trouble with bosses in this playthrough (which is surprising because I purposely took some characters I thought to be underwhelming and quickly dumped favorites like Reimu, Meiling etc).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 04:02:08 AM by Ryin »

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2015, 04:15:50 AM »
Charge isn't that hot a spell to me because the offensive buff portion of it is mostly wasted on renko herself and your tank (unless renko herself is your tank, which.. can work for short periods I rekon but having her in slot one when everyone's action bar gets cut from the charge I'd feel nervous about). And the defensive portion of it... well. I already said I like playing defensively, so I kinda have defense buffs up on nearly everyone all the effing time anyway.

As for Eirin, I have 'played with her' but not a full game. In my first playthru I used her for awhile, and then I tried her again in another playthru from like floor 1-8 or so but quit then cuz I got bored with the team at that point...I think it also had a catastrophic weakness where I only realized that I only had one physical nuke. I have a thing now where I don't switch out which 12 I use from start to finish, I dunno, I just like it that way.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 04:18:29 AM by Ghaleon »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2015, 04:33:10 AM »
Charge isn't that hot a spell to me because the offensive buff portion of it is mostly wasted on renko herself and your tank (unless renko herself is your tank, which.. can work for short periods I rekon but having her in slot one when everyone's action bar gets cut from the charge I'd feel nervous about). And the defensive portion of it... well. I already said I like playing defensively, so I kinda have defense buffs up on nearly everyone all the effing time anyway.
Charge is cool because it's basically a "spammable" World Shaking Military Rule. The problem with that line of thought is that you're considering the spell parts individually. You never really waste an offensive buff on a tank when you're also buffing their defense at the same time
Say I begin a battle with Wriggle, Renko, Kanako and Rumia on the field. I have their speeds set in a way Renko goes last. Everyone does their thing and Renko uses Charge. Wriggle now has defense buffs, Renko now has defense buffs, Kanako has offense and defense buffs and Rumia has offense and defense buffs. It's like used 1.5 Hakurei Borders and two Thunderclouds Sticklebacks for the price of ~4k HP each and about 1/4 of their active gauges.
I can safely switch people around and I'm sure I can get them into a good position in a single casting.
Of course the buff will seem underwhelming if you have Reimu/Yukari/Ran throwing defensive buffs all around. But their buffs are less efficient than just letting Renko take care of everything.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2015, 04:48:36 AM »
Its funny how renko went from "Best character in the game" on LoT1 to almost useless on Lot2, that galaxy stop PAR was too good to be true

Renko's an awesome tank.

-Decent defense, mind and HP growth. Her defenses aren't as good as the dedicated tank characters, but her quick level up rate helps to counteract that disadvantage.
-Very good speed, combined with Charge buffs, means that she'll get lots of turns.
-Great status resistances. Affinities aren't amazing, but both the first point and this one doesn't matter too much, since she has...
-The ever-broken Maintenance. And unlike Nitori, she has 0 attacking potential, so she can focus entirely on defenses, affinities and speed, which will make them far better than most other characters can dream of.
-Easygoing and a Nosferatu Tome essentially gives her an extra move that recovers 44% HP and 4 MP, and leaves the gauge at 5000, (more with Guardian subclass).
-Probably the only legitimate evasion tank if you wish to build her that way. The best layout (excluding Micron's Magic Book for a Reflex Boost Augment) gives her +224 EVA without counting EVA boost from skills, and still gives +196% HP - plenty of leeway to take a hit or two with her naturally decent defenses.
-Sealing Club is one of the better synergy skills, and one of the easiest to keep going too.
-Her status resistance increasing skills work even better when she's expected to be at the front at all times.
-Charge is still pretty strong, and the HP drain (and buffing) can be supplemented with Enhancer subclass if you wish.

I've had her as my main tank in my current LoT2 party, and I can safely say she's easily the most reliable tank I've ever used. (Tenshi, Byakuren, Komachi, even LoT1 Meiling) She's never died before anyone else, never needs to be healed by other characters, and never gets hit by status ailments. Essentially, she sits on the front row, takes perfect care of herself while eating hits, superbuffs allies or superdebuffs enemies or switches when she doesn't need to heal herself (which is most of the time) and lets the rest of the team do whatever they want.

About her only weaknesses are that she can't really tank until she gets Maintenance and, to a lesser extent, Easygoing; and she isn't a good switcher for glass cannons, since she tends to outspeed them.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 04:51:58 AM by Deranged »

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2015, 04:59:23 AM »
Its funny how renko went from "Best character in the game" on LoT1 to almost useless on Lot2, that galaxy stop PAR was too good to be true

Now for the second topic,In all my time i got watching all the threads, has anybody like seriously....used eirin at all? I have never seen her mentioned on a serious run or anything
I have to whole heartedly completely disagree with that. Renko losing Debilitation hurts but Charge is amazing now. She's not my main tank but she certainly could be if I wanted her to. I have all her level up bonuses on SPD and with Maintenance, has the defensive stats of my tanks. She's there to get Byakuren's Duplicating Chant going and save my ass when bosses nullify buffs.

I've used Eirin in LoT2 as my main tank and it works great. I love how she can try to debuff the enemies' offenses when her turns aren't needed for switching.
About her only weaknesses are that she can't really tank until she gets Maintenance and, to a lesser extent, Easygoing; and she isn't a good switcher for glass cannons, since she tends to outspeed them.
Not really a problem since by the time you get her, you already have to levels to put skill points into those skills. I guess its a problem if you do new game+ but I would think that maintenance makes her passable as an offtank early on.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:04:49 AM by jaxter0987 »

Shadowlupus

  • Crimson Blade Hidden Amidst the Darkness
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2015, 06:54:13 AM »
Renko's Charge in LoT1 has to be used in a right situation to be effective or you will risk getting game over. Charge halves the front liners' timebar and damage them equal to Renko's 50% MAG. Even though her MAG is meh, the damage is enough to be a make or break in the fight. Since Renko's MAG is also boosted by Charge, the recoil damage is even more dangerous if you use it more than once. I think it is only good for opener but not so much in the middle of the battle (unless it is a damage race, that is)

In LoT2, Charge deal a recoil damage in percentage instead, making it much less dangerous. It also doesn't mess with your timebar so you can have someone switch Renko in and out immediately for another Charge. Galaxy Stop is less useful in this game as it doesn't debuff Speed, takes 20% of your timebar each time it is used and It also doesn't pierce Mind anymore.

I think the best way to build Renko is giving HP in Level Bonuses, relevant stats in Library, making her a Transcendant subclass, giving her 3 Grand Master Breaker Title and behold! The nigh-invulnerable tank with insanely high resistances/evasion/speed.


Anyhow, currently, I am doing a half-synergy run with some unorthodox building like:

ATK Sakuya
ATK Meiling
Tank Remilia
MAG Iku
ATK Tenshi
MAG Suwako

Other characters are Patchouli, Kanako, Sanae, Yuyuko, Suika and Nitori.

Currently on 11F and I have already appreciate some of them. I will conclude the result once I complete 20F.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 11:44:00 AM by Kageshirou »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2015, 07:52:36 AM »
Not really a problem since by the time you get her, you already have to levels to put skill points into those skills. I guess its a problem if you do new game+ but I would think that maintenance makes her passable as an offtank early on.

Yeah, I was referring to using Renko in a New Game+. From that perspective, Renko's role is pure backlines support until she gets Maintenance, which is when she takes hits very well but still requires healing support. Once she gets Easygoing is when she starts becoming self-sufficient. She only gets better at it as you get better equipment, to the point where she essentially plays a support role in slot 1, with the occasional Concentrate for self-healing.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2015, 10:29:30 AM »
18F is kind of hell. The best solution for that floor, in my opinion, is to get a fast character capable of running away from the most dangerous battles and nuking the rest as efficiently as you can. The next floors battles are by far easier and you can make up for any lost exp in the 20F.
I think 17F is more exp/skill point efficient if you have to grind for Rinnosuke, too? I'm not sure about that part, though.

What is your team, by the way?

Meiling, Ran, Reimu, Chen, Cirno, Orin (was thinking about taking her out, she definitely isnt performing too hot), Nitori, Patchy, Yuyuko, Kaguya, Flan and Suika.

Shadowlupus

  • Crimson Blade Hidden Amidst the Darkness
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2015, 11:43:15 AM »
I just reached 12F and fought the mirror. Patchy knocked out half of its HP (40k per hit) with maxed buffs + Grand Incantation + Princess Undine. I repeat this 3 times and won.  :]

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2015, 12:37:41 PM »
Renko's Charge in LoT1 has to be used in a right situation to be effective or you will risk getting game over. Charge halves the front liners' timebar and damage them equal to Renko's 50% MAG. Even though her MAG is meh, the damage is enough to be a make or break in the fight. Since Renko's MAG is also boosted by Charge, the recoil damage is even more dangerous if you use it more than once. I think it is only good for opener but not so much in the middle of the battle (unless it is a damage race, that is)
I am very serious when I say Charge is blatantly the best buff in the game and that it's "spammable". +80% MAG Charge will only deal about less than 1/4 of your characters' HP, unless you have somebody with really low HP in the receiving end. Not a big deal at all. The ATB halving part is mitigated by defensive buff.
Sure there are some limitations as to what kind of team can use it in the middle of the battle efficiently, but they are not that strict. As long as the front line is somewhat bulky and well healed, if they are prepared to take damage from the boss they can take damage from charge. Using Rumia as your healer is another important thing, I believe. Reimu's heal is cool and all but the 30% post action gauge makes an enormous difference (and Charge keeps it stronger). Sanae is a good partner for a Renko when you wanna keep a specific person at +100% everything so you don't need to recast Charges for a single buff. Rotating your people to make sure you charge as many as you can is also a good idea.
You have to be careful about when you use it but it's not at all a thing that you have to be afraid of using liberally and doesn't really lead to game overs unless you make very bad mistakes.
Have an example: https://youtu.be/h_qr91iYM8I
The fight wouldn't have been as close if Renko didn't have her SP destroyed and could cast more Charges to prepare for the end.

Meiling, Ran, Reimu, Chen, Cirno, Orin (was thinking about taking her out, she definitely isnt performing too hot), Nitori, Patchy, Yuyuko, Kaguya, Flan and Suika.
That's kind of a lot on Ran's hand in that composition. Are you properly investing library levels in Orin's MAG? I think your team would benefit more from losing Chen, Nitori or Flandre than Orin. And it would definitely benefit from Iku or Sanae being put in there. Leaning towards Sanae since I believe Ran is already buffing offenses and Reimu has her hands too busy.
I think Suika, Orin, Nitori, Cirno should work well for that floor? Not sure about how good they'd be at taking the Guardians but the rest should be manageable. Make sure to have Cirno have 200 speed to outspeed bunnies and shubs (and probably run from both because bunnies have 60% PAR resist, Shubs are Shubs and your team can't really handle either).

Shadowlupus

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2015, 01:32:02 PM »
Well, I was thinking of an offensive team in mind when I said that. And of course, Charge is definitely your best buffing spells if you run the defensive team since you would not take much damage from bosses anyway.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2015, 01:36:38 PM »
Oh yeah. Iku is much better if your team composition is heavily offensive and based on hit-and-run tactics. And Renko's debuffs also become more valuable if your team is made for that.
The team doesn't need to be very defensive to make good use of Charge, though.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 02:07:32 PM by Ryin »

jaxter0987

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2015, 09:14:24 AM »
In LoT2, Charge deal a recoil damage in percentage instead, making it much less dangerous. It also doesn't mess with your timebar so you can have someone switch Renko in and out immediately for another Charge. Galaxy Stop is less useful in this game as it doesn't debuff Speed, takes 20% of your timebar each time it is used and It also doesn't pierce Mind anymore.
Is no one going to comment on how Charge in LoT2 also buffs SPD? Its part of why Renko became an instant inclusion to my party despite my general policy of not changing which 12 members I'm using.

Also, I'd say the threat of Charge's recoil damage is amplified when its percentage based. Sure, you won't accidentally kill squishies with it, but chunking your tanks for 33% HP each time is dangerous. I'd much rather have Renko as an Enhancer, so she can flexibly use buff spells without killing her entire ATB, while also reducing the recoil damage of Charge to 17%.

Otaku

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2015, 10:38:58 AM »
I've managed to beat Remilia and Sakuya in my second try (even though it's a while ago), and now i'm struggling with the 12F bosses *sigh*

If anyone want to help my, me party is:
Mokou
Komachi
Nitori
Kaguya
Eirin
Reisen
Kasen
Hexer Hina
Enchanter Keine
Satori
Nazrin
Pachouli

Shadowlupus

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2015, 11:28:03 AM »
Since I just recently used Patchouli for the 12F bosses, I will give you a Patchouli-cheesing tactic.

For the Mirror, raise Patchouli's MAG to 3000 or more (not hard with 2 Forbidden Tablet and 50 Level Up Bonuses), gives her some Physical resistance, max out her Grand Incantation and Rapid Charge skill and you are good to go. Also, make sure Patchouli can survive any of the Mirror's attacks.

When you go into the fight, debuff the Mirror like crazy and focus on buffing Patchouli's MAG to 100%. When Patchouli takes a turn, have her Concentrate then wait until she gets another turn. When she does, use Princess Undine to deal massive damage to the mirror. It should be around 40k per hit. Rinse and repeat the process 3 times and you win. Don't take your time for too long though as the Mirror will boost its MAG every turn. Eirin's Mercury Sea can also deal damage if her MAG is high enough. Kaguya can also pierces its Mind using Swallow Cowrie's Shell.


For the Magatama, your characters should all be tanky (around 1500 Defense and/or Mind, if possible) and be raised in Wind and Nature affinity to make the Razor Wind and Earthquake attacks much less annoying. Debuffs the Magatama and buffs your characters like crazy to ensure you can deal damage to it and survive its attacks. Seriously, I have a trouble with this boss because in my half-synergy run, I have no defense buffers at all.

Again, Patchouli can also nuke this boss easily using the above strategy but you need to gear her different set of equipment: First Aid Kit, WND + 100, NTR + 100 item and Forbidden Tablet. If you can, you might want to raise Patchy's HP to around 1200. This will ensure she can survive all hits from Magatama since most of them targets Defense. Do the same process as the above except use Silent Selene instead. That should deal around 30k. You have to do this around 6-7 times if you use only her.

If your Hina is raised for damage, use Pain Flow after debuffing yourself and the boss, it will deal a massive damage since the Magatama is weak to Dark. Kasen can also deal around 12k per hit with her Curse Arm. Kaguya can also pierces its Mind using Bullet Branch of Hourai if you can ensure she can survive a hit. Since your only healer is Eirin, you need to keep her and Satori alive to ensure you can keep your party healthy from its HP-reduction attack. Enchanter Keine can also do a group heal if you invest in that skill.

Keep your healers MP high enough to heal before reducing its HP to 33% and heal whoever your key nuker is and go nuts until you win. The Magamata gains Speed every turn so it will be extremely fast by the time you reach that phase.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 12:13:39 PM by Kageshirou »

Otaku

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2015, 02:01:36 PM »
Since I just recently used Patchouli for the 12F bosses, I will give you a Patchouli-cheesing tactic.

For the Mirror, raise Patchouli's MAG to 3000 or more (not hard with 2 Forbidden Tablet and 50 Level Up Bonuses), gives her some Physical resistance, max out her Grand Incantation and Rapid Charge skill and you are good to go. Also, make sure Patchouli can survive any of the Mirror's attacks.

When you go into the fight, debuff the Mirror like crazy and focus on buffing Patchouli's MAG to 100%. When Patchouli takes a turn, have her Concentrate then wait until she gets another turn. When she does, use Princess Undine to deal massive damage to the mirror. It should be around 40k per hit. Rinse and repeat the process 3 times and you win. Don't take your time for too long though as the Mirror will boost its MAG every turn. Eirin's Mercury Sea can also deal damage if her MAG is high enough. Kaguya can also pierces its Mind using Swallow Cowrie's Shell.


For the Magatama, your characters should all be tanky (around 1500 Defense and/or Mind, if possible) and be raised in Wind and Nature affinity to make the Razor Wind and Earthquake attacks much less annoying. Debuffs the Magatama and buffs your characters like crazy to ensure you can deal damage to it and survive its attacks. Seriously, I have a trouble with this boss because in my half-synergy run, I have no defense buffers at all.

Again, Patchouli can also nuke this boss easily using the above strategy but you need to gear her different set of equipment: First Aid Kit, WND + 100, NTR + 100 item and Forbidden Tablet. If you can, you might want to raise Patchy's HP to around 1200. This will ensure she can survive all hits from Magatama since most of them targets Defense. Do the same process as the above except use Silent Selene instead. That should deal around 30k. You have to do this around 6-7 times if you use only her.

If your Hina is raised for damage, use Pain Flow after debuffing yourself and the boss, it will deal a massive damage since the Magatama is weak to Dark. Kasen can also deal around 12k per hit with her Curse Arm. Kaguya can also pierces its Mind using Bullet Branch of Hourai if you can ensure she can survive a hit. Since your only healer is Eirin, you need to keep her and Satori alive to ensure you can keep your party healthy from its HP-reduction attack. Enchanter Keine can also do a group heal if you invest in that skill.

Keep your healers MP high enough to heal before reducing its HP to 33% and heal whoever your key nuker is and go nuts until you win. The Magamata gains Speed every turn so it will be extremely fast by the time you reach that phase.

Thanks, i'll try that :3