Author Topic: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: End Of Evangelion  (Read 26917 times)

commandercool

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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: Now In Progress
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2016, 06:35:36 AM »
I will also be doing one episode today and one tomorrow because I fell asleep and now it's too late for me to get both in. Also I have no idea how long to expect this to take.

Episode 25: The World Ending

So I don't know if this is really quite the place to talk about this yet, but I think it's important in how I choose to understand these episodes. One of the biggest questions people ask about Eva, and one of the most contentious, is "Are TV ending and End Of Evangelion different endings?". Are they mutually exclusive, or are they just the same events from different points of view? The TV ending could be interpreted as an elaboration on the journey Shinji goes on in the last half of EoE, or it could be seen as an entirely separate journey. I know people who strongly believe both ways, and in my case I believe that everything up until the ending is consistent, or may as well be, but the ultimate outcomes are two separate things. In the TV ending Shinji's line of thought causes him to embrace instrumentality, and in End Of Evangelion he rejects it, but I don't see any reason why everything up to that point shouldn't be considered applicable to both versions of the story. That being the case, I think everything we're seeing in these two episodes is taking place after Unit 01 merges with the Tree Of Life, meaning that Rei has already become Lilith, Shinji has already seen Asuka and Misato die, and everyone's souls have been vacuumed up by Third Impact. This means that I feel like I can't really evaluate this episode on its own merits, I can only look at it as it relates to the events of End Of Evangelion. Which is too bad, I'm interested to see how much sense it makes without that extra context, but I don't think I can be the one to pull that particular analysis off.

The very first thing in this episode is the text "THE REASON OF EXISTENCE. WHY WE ARE ALLOWED TO BE HERE". Is that just a weird translation, or is that the actual intent of the text? That's a very strange and, to me, kind of sad way to phrase the "why are we here?" question.

I wonder how much of the animation in this episode is actually new. Shinji walking in that foggy place with all the dead trees is new, or at least the decor is, but I kind of suspect all of the character animation is just stripped from other episodes.

So I'm not certain, but I believe the voice interrogating Shinji is the interface of the Tree Of Life trying to figure out what he wants it to do. Due to Gendo's scheming he has been given control over the progenitor race's world-making machine, but he doesn't realize that so he's not using it right. I'm not sure what the other characters speaking to him are supposed to be though. When Rei talks to him it sort of makes sense that it could really be her, since she is now in all times and places simultaneously, including this one. When Asuka talks to him though is that the real Asuka('s soul), or just an image created by the Tree Of Life from Shinji's thoughts and memories to try to straighten out his intentions?

For Asuka's segment we get an establishing shot of Unit 02 under the lake, meaning that if my Tree Of Life theory is correct this part takes place out of sequence with Shinji's part. In Asuka's case the person questioning her is not the Tree Of Life interface, but Rei, presumably post-Lilith time traveling god Rei. Part of quantum Rei's job is to harvest souls, and we see in End Of Evangelion that she does that in different ways with different people, but mostly she tries to entice them to give up their souls with something that they may find comforting. I don't think that's what she's doing here though. She seems to be trying to get Asuka to wake up and fight the MP Evas, presumably to buy Shinji enough time to reach the final stages of Gendo's plan. This is something of a time paradox, so presumably Shinji dies or is otherwise unable to complete the plan without Asuka's help, but Rei is still able to merge with Lilith, causing her to alter the past by speaking to Asuka in order to help Shinji and by extension Gendo. I think.

So what does that make Rei's segment? There are a lot of Reis to go around, so the idea of two of them talking to each other isn't that surprising. But which two? Given that Asuka's segment is out of sequence with Shinji's, and we aren't given much of an establishing shot of Rei's segment, it could take place at basically any time. My best guess, and this is a HUGE stretch, is that this case is similar to Asuka's, where quantum Rei is unsatisfied with the outcome of Instrumentality for some reason and is speaking to someone in the past to alter how things play out to try to get a better ending. In this case though she's talking to herself. I think this is Rei III as Lilith speaking to Rei III at some point shortly before she becomes Lilith. I don't know what she's trying to convince herself to do differently. Maybe she let Gendo live the first time and decided that he should die, or maybe she used the Tree Of Life herself instead of letting Shinji do it.

During Rei's conversation with herself there are periodic shots of her sitting in a folding chair with a spotlight on her. The spotlight is white, so it looks like the moon. When we see Asuka in a similar position her spotlight is red, and is reminiscent of the sun. For Shinji it's purple, possibly representing Unit 01 or the colors of Rei and Asuka combined, and in his case there are patterns on the floor or in the light that make it look like the Earth.

Rei's segment ends with Gendo telling her that "This is the day for which you were created" followed by the text "AND SO THE HUMAN INSTRUMENTALITY PROJECT BEGINS". That actually makes me a lot more confident in my guess about what's happening in Rei's segment, since the timeline is consistent with my guess. This does indeed seem to be happening in the moments before Rei merges with Lilith.

The shots of Ritsuko and Misato's bodies are a bit inconsistent with the events of End Of Evangelion. Misato doesn't actually die from a bullet wound (although she's clearly dying), she actually dies in an explosion of some kind, I think from a grenade. This might just be the result of End Of Evangelion being a few years out and a few things changing during that gap, or it might be telling of the fact that the events of the two different endings are actually different. In this ending Misato appears to be lying dead in front of a wall as opposed to in front of the elevator she puts Shinji on in the movie, maybe indicating that she actually dies in a different place doing something different. This might be changed by Rei tinkering with the past. I wonder if that's supposed to indicate that these two endings are divergent at an earlier point than I thought?

So far my theory about who is talking to who when seems to be mostly staying consistent, so if that's the case what does Misato's segment mean? If I'm right, my guess is that this is quantum Rei in the process of harvesting Misato's soul by showing her something that will make her want to surrender it. That would mean that all of the people who speak to her except Rei are images created from her memories, or maybe Rei in the forms of different people.

We see Misato sitting in the same folding chair we've seen all of the other characters in as she's being questioned, but this time the spotlight is white again. It's not the same solid white moon as Rei, though. This time it has a pattern that looks like water, or maybe fog. I don't know if this is further evidence that Rei is the one doing the questioning, but it might be.

Child Misato's clothing is bizarre. She's wearing a tiny child overcoat. Weird.

Shinji's judgmental face when he's watching Misato and Kaji having sex made me laugh. One eyebrow is ever so slightly raised.

Back to Asuka, and it's unclear if this segment is a continuation of the earlier one with Asuka or if it's a new thing. I'm inclined to guess it's a new session, since the framing is different. I think Asuka is now dead or dying, and this is another case of Rei harvesting her soul by convincing her that she wants to give it up.

I screencapped the image of Asuka's mother holding that doll. I want to compare it to Asuka's doll in Rebuild 2.0 to see if it's possible to tell if it's the same doll. I don't know if I expect it to be or not, but it'll be interesting to see.

There's an additional bit of weird framing at the end where it seems like Shinji has been watching the scenes with all of the other characters this whole time. Does that mean that Rei hasn't been involved after all, and that all of this has been Shinji using his omnipotence to see into the minds of his acquaintances to try to gain some insight into what he should do next? Maybe. Or maybe the Rei stuff still makes sense, but Shinji is viewing that process. Hmm... I'm still not sure I know what's going on, but I think I might be close. Maybe with the next episode I can definitively make a guess. Or maybe I'm completely delusional, I can't tell at this point.

Do you have any insight into what watching this episode without trying to relate everything back to End Of Evangelion is like? Does it make any sense at all? I really feel like I can't tell any more, but I think that is kind of important to consider. A lot of people hate the TV ending, and I can kind of see why. It's about as clear as mud even with tons of additional details that would have been unavailable for years after it aired. But then again, maybe I'm just making it way more complicated than it should be.

Yeah, there's no way I could do the last episode right now. That took forever and was exhausting. I'm excited to get to it tomorrow though to see if my theories hold any water and to see if I can figure out what actually is going on.
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commandercool

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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: Now In Progress
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2016, 05:49:03 AM »
Alright, last episode!

Episode 26: The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart Of The World

This episode's title is taken from the title of a Harlan Ellison short story. I can't decide what I think of Harlan Ellison, I don't know if he's smart or trashy. Probably both I guess. I haven't read the short story in question so I don't know what it's about. I assume it relates somehow.

Oh, so this episode takes place in 2016. I didn't realize. That doesn't actually give us much information that we didn't have before, but it might be a useful clue to maybe figuring out a rough timeframe.

So if we weren't able to piece it together before now (and I think we probably did technically have enough information to figure it out as of last episode) the truth of what the "Human Instrumentality Project" actually involves is finally revealed. It will eliminate the boundaries between people's minds, creating one cohesive "humanity" with no individual identities, or something like that. That's certainly not a strictly terrible ambition. If this is what Gendo was after the whole time then I don't think there's any way we can call him evil. Misguided certainly, his vision of humanity sounds a bit too Junji Ito for me, but clearly his heart is sort of in the right place. I'm sure he's doing this for selfish reasons but clearly there are people who want him to succeed.

I don't know if I think the people talking to Shinji at this point are actually there or not. I'd guess they probably aren't and Shinji is just imagining them or being tricked, but I'm not confident about that.

Shinji says that "If I run away, nobody will respect me", then we get a string of people not respecting him even though he didn't run away. The poor kid can't win. I wonder if anyone would have respected him if he had run away? Misato might have, on some level. He probably wouldn't have respected himself for doing it, at least not right away. But maybe if he had run away he could have escaped from Gendo's abusive influence and might have learned to respect himself eventually. Does Shinji respect himself by the end of the series though? I don't really know. If he does then maybe Gendo's abuse is part of the reason for that.

There doesn't really seem to be anything additional in this episode that confirms or denies my theory from the last episode yet. I guess the part with Shinji experimenting with the different versions of reality is a strong confirmation that he's fused with the Tree Of Life at this point, but I don't see anything that explains what was going on with any of the other characters in the previous episode.

I feel like I should have something to say about the weird alternate reality high school comedy fantasy sequence, but I don't. I'm glad it's here anyway. And I guess it goes to show that these shows never change ever. Aside from the color palette being a bit more muted than contemporary anime this might as well be a modern parody.

I've said a number of times that different parts of the series were nearly the most iconic thing in Evangelion, and the very last scene of the series was always the thing I had in mind as being the most iconic. It's probably the single part that I see homaged and referenced most often, and when I think of Evangelion it's among the first things I think of.

Now that I look closely at it, though, I'm not sure I fully understand what happened. This episode is widely regarded as being the ending in which Shinji follows Gendo's plan and carries out Instrumentality, but does he? This isn't what I would have expected to see based on what we're told Instrumentality will be, and his thought process leading up to it seems to break free of his earlier mindset that wanted to lose its ego. All of the characters at the end still seemed to be defined individuals. Why would a Shinji who finally understands that he has value as an individual want to throw away his new sense of identity, and why does he still seem to have it afterward? Maybe my understanding of what Human Instrumentality is supposed to be is just inaccurate.

I really identified with Shinji's journey in this episode, even in a way that I didn't last time I watched it. It occurs to me that he doesn't really receive a satisfying solution to his doubts and problems. He never gets a reason why he deserves to have self respect even though he doesn't think he's earned it, but rather he learns about the problems that other people have and gains perspective more than answers. That seems like a realistic and grounded way to end his arc, and I actually find it pretty satisfying even though it objectively isn't. Where that ultimately gets him is slightly unclear to me, but I appreciate the journey.

For the most part I think this ending is widely liked. Most of the people I know prefer this ending to End Of Evangelion (I am not one of them). But at best it's very controversial, and I can see where that controversy comes from. I can get something out of this ending with the context of End Of Evangelion behind it, but had this been the last piece of Evangelion that I thought I would ever be getting I don't think I would like it very much. Nobody's journey feels quite complete yet.

So with that we have to figure out what we're going to do now, viewing-wise. I'm going to watch End Of Evangelion next obviously, but there's no way in hell I could do the whole movie in one sitting. That would take many, many hours and I don't think I could pull it off. The movie is divided into two "episodes", so I guess we could watch those over the course of two weeks. Doing that even divides the movie up into two ~45 minute segments, which is about the length of two episodes each. There's also Death And Rebirth to consider, and I'm inclined to just skip it. I don't think it has much merit at this point. Maybe I'm just biased against clip shows, but I don't remember it being especially coherent or well edited and all of the important parts made it back into the series. As far as I know the only remaining part that isn't integrated into the director's cut is the concert scene, and I'm pretty sure that isn't canon because it involves characters being in the wrong places at the wrong times to be able to fit into the timeline in any way.

This has been quite a journey so far. I feel like I've learned a lot so far. I still have questions left, mostly regarding Lilith and Seele, but I think End Of Evangelion should at least help address those. I love EoE, so I'm looking forward to revisiting it again. 

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Mеа

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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: Now In Progress
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2016, 04:33:50 AM »
Quote
The very first thing in this episode is the text "THE REASON OF EXISTENCE. WHY WE ARE ALLOWED TO BE HERE". Is that just a weird translation, or is that the actual intent of the text? That's a very strange and, to me, kind of sad way to phrase the "why are we here?" question.
What the text actually says is:

Reason of existence, Raison d'?tre
A reason to be here / A reason to exist / Why we are allowed to be here / Why we are allowed to exist / etc

It's essentially saying the same thing in three different, redundant ways. Goes with the whole Rei repeating the same thing multiple times to dig further at the question sort of thing that's going on now.



Quote
Do you have any insight into what watching this episode without trying to relate everything back to End Of Evangelion is like? Does it make any sense at all? I really feel like I can't tell any more, but I think that is kind of important to consider. A lot of people hate the TV ending, and I can kind of see why. It's about as clear as mud even with tons of additional details that would have been unavailable for years after it aired. But then again, maybe I'm just making it way more complicated than it should be.
What exactly is happening in-context and how we got there is mystifying, but the actual content itself isn't confusing. It plays out like an in-depth psychoanalysis of each of the characters and how they all share the same sort of struggles. In other words, I don't know what happened in the background that led the episode into this sequence (other than, oh Third Impact must have started. But even this is from general outside knowledge, except when Gendo and a few other characters explicitly mention Instrumentation), but what's being shown isn't nonsensical. It's almost even a bit more straightforward than the Leliel episode because here we have characters talking amongst each other rather than Shinji and Angel?Shinji. Watching the second episode today made me wonder whether these were the actual characters or some weird psycho-projection of the characters from Shinji's viewpoint of the events of Instrumentation doing its work on his psyche, but other than that, it seems straightforward. Trying to glean the truth behind what is actually happening in-context from the little tiny nuggets of hints and truths the show scatters jealously is probably very much not-straightforward, but I'm not trying to do that like you are, with all the analysis about what phase of Third Impact we're at and Quantum Reis or interfaces of Tree of Lifes and whatnot. I don't know. The show allows for further examination from that angle but it doesn't seem to invite the viewer, or me at least, to try to have to pry open that can of answers. Just going along with the flow.


And anyway, I'm late but here it is, last episode.
Ep 26: Take care of yourself. The beast that shouted 'love' from the center of the world
I think we finally get an explanation, a direct one, of what instrumentality is, everyone melting together to fill in each other's cavities, gapes, and holes, their weaknesses.

I was always wondering why Shinji, a self-proclaimed coward, would have a mantra like 'musn't run away'. And then here they finally explain it's because he knows the pain of running away. He also says no one respected/will respected him if he does. I wonder if Gendo was always cold towards him, or he became more cold after he ran away. I wonder if Gendo also thought that 'resurrecting' Yui would allow his family to come back together again, though I find it a little romantic for it to be true.

Shinji rationalizes that because he hates himself, so everyone else must also be hating him.

There must be a gif of that cool segment of metamorphosing shapes.

And here is that romantic comedy sort of Evangelion scene. Oh it's so weird and bizarre. It's weird enough as it is to see all the characters being loose, generally upbeat, and off. The juxtaposing with everything else makes it even more accentuated and weird weird. Something feels so off. Like it's almost a parody, a mocking of the AU Evangelion spinoffs or fanfics.

And then Shinji recognizes/embraces his own self worth and decides he wants to continue to live and 'stay here'. Which sends cracks running across the space of his isolation, finally breaking him free, standing among his friends/family/colleagues, being congratulated, in a bright open sky above some planet. Really weird. EoE-wise, accepting his will to live on would break him free from Instrumentation and actually refortify his 'isolation', or at least the isolation of his personal ego. And I don't know what they're congratulating him on either. On finding his self-worth? It's a really happy end though, rather uplifting after everything even though I don't know what's going on in-context. Are these the actual characters? Did all the other characters also have to go through this? It did say 'Case of Shinji Ikari' at the beginning. Oh wait, the episode started with 'reason to live', and when Shinji found his self-worth and accepted his 'allowance' to remain, the sky fell and everyone applauded him. . . ...? I guess that was the point?

Quote
I really identified with Shinji's journey in this episode, even in a way that I didn't last time I watched it. It occurs to me that he doesn't really receive a satisfying solution to his doubts and problems. He never gets a reason why he deserves to have self respect even though he doesn't think he's earned it, but rather he learns about the problems that other people have and gains perspective more than answers. That seems like a realistic and grounded way to end his arc, and I actually find it pretty satisfying even though it objectively isn't. Where that ultimately gets him is slightly unclear to me, but I appreciate the journey.
Yeah I can agree with that. Seems more realistic that not all the answers are provided for every nagging bit of insecurity any individual might face or hold. Life does seem to be more about perspective than answers.

I'm down for whatever you have in mind. First time I watched EoE, I was so unable to grasp the flow of what was happening that it turned into some stream of consciousness sort of river of images that I barely remember now.
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commandercool

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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: Now In Progress
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2016, 04:47:42 AM »
And here is that romantic comedy sort of Evangelion scene. Oh it's so weird and bizarre. It's weird enough as it is to see all the characters being loose, generally upbeat, and off. The juxtaposing with everything else makes it even more accentuated and weird weird. Something feels so off. Like it's almost a parody, a mocking of the AU Evangelion spinoffs or fanfics.

I don't think Evangelion spinoffs or fanfics probably existed yet when this was shot, and especially not when it was written (although I suspect what was written was probably very different than what got filmed). This scene probably inspired tons of spinoffs if anything. Although it may very well have been a prescient reference to the kinds of fan fiction people tend to make as well as being an obvious jab at a different kind of anime. You could definitely read it as being a little mean-spirited, so I wonder if that says anything about Anno's taste. Does he look down his nose at school comedy anime, or is this intended as a loving tribute?

I'm reminded of the first chunk of Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Rebellion in a lot of ways (Madoka being, in my mind, the most direct spiritual successor to Eva). It's clearly a reference to a tamer kind of story, sort of an indictment of that kind of story, but also just a little bit genuine.

I'm down for whatever you have in mind. First time I watched EoE, I was so unable to grasp the flow of what was happening that it turned into some stream of consciousness sort of river of images that I barely remember now.

Yeah, EoE is weird. I think a lot of trouble people have with it comes from the juxtaposition of the fairly straightforward first half with the much-less-straightforward second half, and the way I intend to watch it for this project those pieces will be kept separate. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 04:49:54 AM by commandercool »
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commandercool

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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: Now In Progress
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2016, 02:31:03 AM »
Okay, End Of Evangelion. I have no idea how much of this I'm going to get through in this sitting, even with the intent of only watching the first half this week. I suspect this may be the longest watch for me yet.

Episode 25': Air

My interpretation of the opening scene is that this takes place literally moments after the ending of episode 24, with Misato having just left Shinji standing by the lake. I guess you could read it as being an indeterminate amount of time later and that Shinji just goes back to that spot a lot.

Asuka's left wrist appears to be bandaged in the hospital, lending credence to the theory that she did attempt to kill herself in the previous episode. That may just be because that's where her IV is inserted, but the bandages seem excessive for that. I'm not a medical professional though, so maybe that is normal.

The scene with Shinji and Asuka in the hospital is rough. I found it hard to watch, even more so than on previous viewings. I can't back this up and the source is the same guy who's given me some dubious meta-information in the past, but I've been told that Anno has said in interviews that he wanted to have Shinji do the absolute worst thing he could possibly do that could still be forgivable for the audience. If true, I think that's pretty on-point. It's certainly one of the most memorable moments in the series to me, and it sort of sets the tone and themes of the movie.

On the most basic level, the plot of this "episode" is about what happens to NERV after they accomplish their goal and are no longer needed to keep the Angels at bay. It's obviously a lot more complicated than that, but the smokescreen that SEELE uses to invade their headquarters has to do with the UN's fears about a small group of people having alien super-weapons now that they don't have an outside enemy to use them on. I may have said this before, but that idea was always kind of in the back of my mind when I played X-Com. I made sure to liberally distribute alien tech to different countries throughout the game so that it wouldn't all be centralized in my base, hoping that my guys wouldn't get End Of Evangelioned after the game was over. :derp:

Misato, musing about the Instrumentality Project, says "So mankind, a race of flawed and incomplete separate entities, has reached the end of its evolutionary potential. The Instrumentality Project will manufacture the evolution of man's separate entities into a single consummate being". I wonder what makes her say that. I suppose that maybe the natural conclusion of the progression of the Angel might have to be that mankind has reached its destined final form. If Angels are supposed to be physically perfect beings via the Fruit Of Life, and Kaworu as an Angel has the appearance of a human, then humans could be extrapolated to be the endpoint of their evolutionary path. Seems like a bit of a leap of logic, and maybe that's not even what she's talking about.

We get a little more insight into what SEELE's plan has been the whole time. Keel says "Without the Lance Of Longinus we cannot use Lilith to complete the Project. Our only hope is to use Lilith's only true offspring, Eva Unit 01". This is telling of a couple of things, although they're things that we kind of already knew. First, SEELE's plan was to initiate Third Impact wholesale, eliminating all life except Unit 01. Second, for some reason Unit 01 is Lilith's "true offspring" and the other Evas are not. That can't be because they don't have S2 Engines, because the MP Evas do and apparently they don't qualify. So I'm not sure what it is about Unit 01 that's so special. Unit 00 seems like it's closer to being Lilith's offspring based on what we know because it houses at least part of Lilith's soul, if not the entire thing. So what's different about Unit 01?

We also learn about a major ideological difference between Gendo and SEELE's plans that fully casts SEELE as the villains at this late point in the series. Council member 09, whoever that is, says "We need not cast aside our human form to use Evangelion as our own private Ark". Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions because I don't know the full implications of what Third Impact would actually do if it went off as they intended, but it sounds like they plan on wiping everyone else out and surviving by shielding themselves inside of Unit 01, leaving themselves as the only living, or at least ego-intact, people on the planet after the event. By "human form" I assume they mean mentally human and not physically human and that they intend to store themselves inside of Unit 01 as data, but maybe they do actually intend to cram a bunch of old men into the entry plug, I don't know.
At any rate, this is one of my least favorite things about End Of Evangelion. Even though it's vague enough to be interpreted I think it pretty explicitly paints SEELE as selfish bad guys when I prefer they be ambiguously motivated, which puts them on similar ground with Gendo. This twist makes them the "bad side" and Gendo the "good side" because he at least seems to have all of humanity's interest at heart and they don't. I think that's a lot less interesting. They do go on to talk about all of humanity being reborn as one, but at this point given what they just said I don't think they plan to count themselves among "all of humanity".

Going back to the thing with Shinji's tape player tying in to the ending of the series, he's shown laying in bed with his headphones on and the tape player is low on batteries and set to track 0. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but it might be a sign that the TV ending and EoE are not, in fact, the same ending. That might be quite a stretch though.

I think this is the first reference we get to there being a number of Magi systems around the world. Interestingly this scene uses the corny dramatic music from much earlier in the series, which kind of seems out of place at this point. Despite the fact that this is a very different situation from last time the Magi were under attack, the score is the same.

There's an ironic exchange between Fuyutsuki and the bridge staff about how the final enemy is their fellow man after all. Of course later we'll find out that fellow man IS an Angel. I wonder who knows that at this point. Presumably Gendo, probably SEELE, maybe Futusuki, definitely Misato by way of Kaji, and probably not many others.

The shots of the invading forces massacring unarmed NERV staff are pretty rough. The soldiers have probably been fed a story about how NERV is plotting to destroy the world (and to be fair, that is totally true), but it wouldn't be easy to assume that all of their low-level staff is in on it too. I guess that's not how being a soldier works, but still, brutal.

While trying to get Shinji moving Misato says "15 years ago the Second Impact was intentionally engineered by mankind because it was the only way to minimize the potential damage. They had to reduce Adam to an embryonic state before the other Angels awoke". I wonder what that means. I never thought about it that way, that the Angels were inevitably going to surface in 2015 regardless of whether or not Second Impact had taken place, but I guess it's probably true. But what would have happened if Adam hadn't been turned into an embryo? Would he have awoken too and actively tried to rejoin the Angels or something?

She then says "You see Shinji, Mankind was spawned from a being called Lilith, just like Adam was. We are the 18th Angel". Wait, what? What does she mean "just like Adam was"? Does she think Lilith created Adam? By saying "the other Angels" in her last thought was she talking about Adam? That's not right, is it? Does this mean that Kaji was wrong about Adam the whole time? Is this just a mistranslation in my dub? I actually stopped and went to the wiki to look up Adam and Lilith to make sure I hadn't just been misunderstanding their relationship the whole time, and yeah, Misato is just wrong here.

We see the Prime Minister in Tokyo-2 (I don't think I knew Tokyo-2 was even still around, I assumed it was destroyed or abandoned like Old Tokyo), and he has indeed been fed a story by SEELE about NERV being evil. And again, none of the facts he was given were probably that wrong, except the omission that SEELE wants to do virtually the same thing. He even seems to be trying to contact NERV to settle things peacefully and only can't because SEELE cut the communication lines. He orders headquarters destroyed and says "Make sure no one can touch it for the next 20 years, like Old Tokyo". Does this indicate that maybe Old Tokyo was destroyed on purpose, or is that just sort of a figure of speech?

During the scene with Asuka in the cockpit under the lake with Kyoko reaching out to her there's a brief flash of something that I had to rewind and pause to see. It's Asuka's desiccated, maggot-ridden corpse. Lovely. Following that are a bunch of flashes of the scene with her as a little girl, but with a lot of extra added blood. When the imagery flashes back to her in the cockpit there are different things superimposed over her including some German text that I can't read but assume to be "I don't want to die" and that doll, which is layered over her head in such a way that, to me, it sort of looks like a brain.

This begins the fucking stupendous Mass Production Eva fight. I don't think I can even say that much about this sequence except that it's the best fight scene in animation. And Asuka kicks it off by undoubtedly killing a catastrophic number of people. I can't really blame her I guess, they are soldiers trying to kill her, but she throws a battleship into a battery of tanks, and I'm guessing all of those were manned.

It's pretty brave of all of those JSSDF hovercraft to keep coming after her after she annihilates the first few waves and they seemingly do nothing to her. I guess the pilots really believe this is a do-or-die situation anyway based on what they've been told about NERV. And that is the case, they're fucked regardless.

First appearance of the Mass Production Evas. I LOVE the designs on these guys. They're obviously from similar origins as the Evas, but they look different enough to be really scary and alien. Possibly notably the Revoltech Evangelion toys use the same basic body type for most of the Evas, but the MP Evas have a separate base body with completely different articulation. Then again Awoken Unit 01 from Rebuild 2.0 has a third completely different base body that only it uses and it looks exactly the same as Unit 01, so maybe that was more of an experiment than any kind of indication that their bodies are significantly structurally different.

We briefly see that the entry plugs for the MP Evas are marked with Kaworu's name, so they must be dummy plugs. I missed that the first time I saw this movie and assumed that there must have been a parallel cast of anime teens with mental problems piloting them that we just never see, which is kind of an interesting thought. But no, they use dummy plugs. And their behavior is consistent with Unit 01 when it was running off of Rei's dummy plug: They basically fight like wild animals.

Whenever I talk to someone about this movie one of the things I always say is that every time I watch it I take something different away from it, and during the scene right before Misato's death I realized what it is this time around: Shinji spends the first chunk of the movie trying not to pilot Unit 01 because when he's in an Eva "all he does is hurt and kill people". And I just realized that, at least at this point, he's sort of right. If he gets in Unit 01 all he'll do is hurt and kill people. The catch is that if he doesn't do it he and everyone else at NERV will die, and presumably Third Impact will still happen somehow because SEELE seems to have some kind of plan to activate Unit 01 without him, but he isn't wrong in resisting getting in. Misato basically bullies him into doing it, and in some ways she's the one in the wrong here. I wonder what would have happened if Shinji had just refused to get in the cockpit. Maybe nothing good, but then again maybe Third Impact could have been averted since it will end up being him that causes it.

I don't usually find myself relating that strongly with Misato, but she says something here that really resonates with me. "I've made tons of stupid mistakes and later I regretted them. And I've done it over and over again. A cycle of hollow joy and vicious self-hatred. But even so, every time I learned something about myself." I've always kind of considered Misato to be a rash, selfish person who's too focused on the present and who doesn't plan ahead. But this line makes me think maybe I've been misestimating her. Maybe she has been thinking carefully this whole time, and this is just how she does things. That's very similar to my personal ethos. I believe that it's okay to make any mistake as long as you learn something from it that can help prevent it from happening again. Misato's speech here is actually kind of uplifting given the circumstances. I'm not sure I agree with her that the right thing for Shinji to do is to get in Unit 01, but I can respect her decision making process.

Misato's last act is to kiss Shinji and proposition him. She probably knows that she's dying and that she'll never actually make good on her promise, but I do get the impression that she's been thinking about this before now.

We have the first of many, many deaths of main characters in this movie with Misato being killed by an explosion. She sees Rei right before she dies, which is in line with the rest of the movie. I paused the video to write this and realized that you can actually see her body being blown in half by the explosion. It's pretty graphic. I never noticed that before. Seems kind of unnecessary, but it wouldn't be the first time.

Ritsuko tries to kill Gendo, several times over. Does this mean that she's changed her mind on his plan, if she was ever on board with it, or just that she wants to hurt him personally? Gendo says something we can't hear before he kills her. I have to assume it was either "I love you" or "I didn't love you", and either way she calls him a liar. But which was it?

Unit 02 being impaled through the head by one of the replica Lances also seems to have taken out one of Asuka's eyes. We've seen the pilots feel what the Evas feel before, but we've never seen the physical injuries carry over. I assume that's either because the Lance is such a powerful weapon, or because Asuka's synchronization with Unit 02 is so complete.

The reactivation of the MP Evas is kind of an animation error, in the sense that after getting back up they don't still have all of the wounds she inflicted on them. Some of them are missing limbs, but the one she ripped in half still gets back up with the rest of them with no severe signs of damage. It's possible that their regeneration is that good, but then I figure they would have regrown their missing limbs too. Oh well, not a big problem.

As noted before, Asuka's death closely mirrors Rei II's death a few episodes ago. It has that same weird effect that Gendo's death will have later, where her body just kind of splits apart. Not sure what that means if anything, it might just be an interesting visual/symbolic effect.

Unit 01 reactivates itself and blasts free of the headquarters, complete with energy wings reminiscent of Adam's and resembling the ones seen in the TV opening. It looks ready to go, in contrast to Shinji who looks anything but. The part where the camera zooms through Unit 01's head with its crazy glowing eyes and into Shinji's tired face is a great juxtaposition. It occurs to me that the Awoken Unit 01 design from Rebuild 2.0 is probably heavily inspired by this scene. After all, why would Unit 01 only have these new powers now? It's not like anything particular has happened to it since it ate Zeruel, so it probably should have looked like this the whole time, at least while berserk.

To be continued... I'll finish this next week. As predicted that took a very long time. Not sure how long, since I went to go get dinner in the middle, but well over three hours.
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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: End Of Evangelion
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2016, 02:43:46 AM »
I'm sick today and yesterday so I won't be doing that today. It sucks since I actually had stuff to do :V ohhh welll

I don't think Evangelion spinoffs or fanfics probably existed yet when this was shot, and especially not when it was written (although I suspect what was written was probably very different than what got filmed). This scene probably inspired tons of spinoffs if anything. Although it may very well have been a prescient reference to the kinds of fan fiction people tend to make as well as being an obvious jab at a different kind of anime. You could definitely read it as being a little mean-spirited, so I wonder if that says anything about Anno's taste. Does he look down his nose at school comedy anime, or is this intended as a loving tribute?

I'm reminded of the first chunk of Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Rebellion in a lot of ways (Madoka being, in my mind, the most direct spiritual successor to Eva). It's clearly a reference to a tamer kind of story, sort of an indictment of that kind of story, but also just a little bit genuine.
Oh I'm sure they didn't exist yet. Haven't seen any of the Madoka movies, but from the little I've read about them, I know what you mean. It just feels like a mockery of them, whether retroactively watching it or in actuality. A lot of what makes the characters complex and interesting is necessarily stripped out and instead what you get is high school romantic teen comedy feat. Evangelion. The genuine part of what you mention for me stems from the fact that I want the characters to take a break from all their problems and enjoy themselves. A bit of a duality.
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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: End Of Evangelion
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2016, 03:22:17 AM »
Oh I'm sure they didn't exist yet. Haven't seen any of the Madoka movies, but from the little I've read about them, I know what you mean.

Without spoiling anything or getting two detailed, Rebellion (I won't comment on the other movies, I'm not a fan of them but that's another can of worms) begins with a drastic shift in tone that seems to be a blatant reference to cheerful Madoka doujins that reduce the series to a run-of-the-mill magical girl story. That section is for a specific reason and it totally pays off, but it reads as a measured acknowledgement from Urobuchi to the kind of story some people seem to wish Madoka was, rather than what it is. It's not a slam on them or a celebration of them necessarily, but it uses them as a plot device in an interesting way. If you like Madoka at all I highly recommend watching Rebellion, it is stupendous.
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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: End Of Evangelion
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2016, 03:28:48 PM »


So the legends were true. It is real!
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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: End Of Evangelion
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2016, 08:47:14 AM »
?? ?? ?? do not get ??

Sorry for not doing this yet btw, I'm so late, I bet you've forgotten about the first part already :/  : (  :/

I haven't read your post yet because I was intending on watching it without any biases. I'll ask though, how many minutes in did you stop? Or maybe after some easily recognizable scene?
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Re: Let's Watch Neon Genesis Evangelion: End Of Evangelion
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2016, 10:08:33 PM »
?? ?? ?? do not get ??

The home video release of this movie has been delayed so many goddamn times that I basically stopped believing it was ever going to happen.

Sorry for not doing this yet btw, I'm so late, I bet you've forgotten about the first part already :/  : (  :/

I haven't read your post yet because I was intending on watching it without any biases. I'll ask though, how many minutes in did you stop? Or maybe after some easily recognizable scene?

Don't worry about taking a while to get to this, it's a pretty daunting project so you can of have to have a substantial block of free time to set aside to work on it. I know that can be hard to come by.

There's an obvious intermission in the middle, I stopped there. Specifically at 0:42:00.
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