Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating  (Read 196541 times)

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #600 on: February 26, 2017, 04:19:23 PM »
Hm, rather than me explaining it, read the latest chapter of Forbidden Scrollery that came out just two days ago and was translated just today? lol
http://bato.to/reader#467c942d4eca2a8a

How...... convenient lol. ZUN answered my question as soon as I asked it.

EDIT: Okay so... the way Marisa describes it, it makes youkai seem like a Umineko sort of thing. If we accept that youkai exist, then they exist, but if we say "it's just a bird" then it's just a bird. But youkai do exist in universe. We've seen tangible proof of their existence.

This question might not be answerable right now, but what would happen if say Mamizou showed off her tail in the outside world? Or Sumireko had a laser fight above a city with some youkai? Or Junko did terraforming on the moon? These things have clearly tangible effects? How can someone deny the existence of youkai when there's tangible proof of their existence?

Another way to put it is, Marisa said youkai could decimate the village if they wanted to. But how could they do that if they never existed in the first place, and were just a bird or a gust of wind all along?

It always could be a Umineko thing where all these incidents can be explained science, but that seems kind of silly for this universe. And like I said, I get this question might not be answerable by anyone except ZUN. But I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 06:25:23 PM by TresserT »
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #601 on: February 27, 2017, 02:00:40 AM »
Sumireko did had a laser fight above a city with some supernatural capable. And since then things are how we see they are currently. She becames the lackey of some mountain hermit & sleeps more

I don't think Junko going to do those kind of thing in a too far high of a level if in the end it's far off of her pure purpose.

If it's limited to Mamizou flashing her tail to random high school boys, it will be some neat cosplay. She will gain "faith" & become idol.

If i were to joke around with Junko idea,
If Junko were to go and write things on the moon, say maybe "Chang'e! i'm gonna be on TV! hows that, b*tch!". Earthlings had no idea about Junko at all and be all like "dafuq NASA!?"
From here there's gonna be two possibilty until angry mother Junko actually show herself in TV station.
First, Junko had a catfight with Hecatia whose be like "How could you go on ahead without me!", them both cool off, reconcile, and forgetting about it. And things in Earth stay the way they are seeing how Lunarian are smart & pissed.
Second, it will be like Ouroborous thingy all over again. Modern Apparition golden age, brand new science, ignored, forgotten, Fancier Apparition Asylum the 2nd, again.
Spoiler:
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sorry i can't help it.....i get enough joking now.

I have nothing against tengu, in fact i love them panty shots. But Tengu are one of the youkais capable of making a gust of wind running amok while making it looks like just the work of nature, those are just wind after all.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #602 on: February 27, 2017, 03:07:11 PM »
Given Akyuu's words about infinite truths, there's also the chance that what Marisa said to Kosuzu isn't the actual truth but only what they are made to believe.
What if Yukari now tells Kosuzu that youkai don't really need fear to keep existing, and that it was just propaganda to make Gensokyo possible and keep it a liveable place?

Also, did ZUN say anything about the missed chapter of november?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #603 on: February 27, 2017, 11:58:31 PM »
Given Akyuu's words about infinite truths, there's also the chance that what Marisa said to Kosuzu isn't the actual truth but only what they are made to believe.
There are few guesses and interpretation to reason with that.
But if what Marisa said are taken the wrong way (denying the existence of youkai), that would endanger the longevity of youkai and makes it no different from outside world. Them youkai wouldn't want that.
There's also matters whether it's even possible for Human Village to deny the youkai in Gensokyo like TresserT said. them gals are just nuts

What if Yukari now tells Kosuzu that youkai don't really need fear to keep existing, and that it was just propaganda to make Gensokyo possible and keep it a liveable place?
That will be a huge turning point, makes the only reason that keeps the youkai inside the Gensokyo are the barrier. Can also be said confinement instead of asylum (though that depends on the whackiness of the residents).

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #604 on: February 28, 2017, 03:21:29 AM »
How...... convenient lol. ZUN answered my question as soon as I asked it.

EDIT: Okay so... the way Marisa describes it, it makes youkai seem like a Umineko sort of thing. If we accept that youkai exist, then they exist, but if we say "it's just a bird" then it's just a bird. But youkai do exist in universe. We've seen tangible proof of their existence.

This question might not be answerable right now, but what would happen if say Mamizou showed off her tail in the outside world? Or Sumireko had a laser fight above a city with some youkai? Or Junko did terraforming on the moon? These things have clearly tangible effects? How can someone deny the existence of youkai when there's tangible proof of their existence?

Another way to put it is, Marisa said youkai could decimate the village if they wanted to. But how could they do that if they never existed in the first place, and were just a bird or a gust of wind all along?

It always could be a Umineko thing where all these incidents can be explained science, but that seems kind of silly for this universe. And like I said, I get this question might not be answerable by anyone except ZUN. But I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

Well, the youkai are still being believed in, so of course they could destroy the village.  But what comes afterwards is the more critical part.  What kills youkai isn't just science or evidence.  It's a more popular explanation.  As long as you can explain what has happened, and most importantly get the people to believe it, whether it's scientific or not, without involving the youkai, that's the end of Gensokyo.  That's the main difference between Gensokyo's situation and Umineko's - it's Politics, not Logic.  And Yukari, Keine, and Reimu have that arena locked down tight. 

So in this circumstance, a village has become a crater.  Some people who come upon it might think a meteor hit.  Some might think a terrorist attacked.  Another group may think it's the wrath of an angry god.  And then there's the guy in the corner saying it was the Oni picking a fight with the Flower Youkai.  The whole rationale of Gensokyo is to keep option #4 viable to the people, so the youkai will survive.    The spellcard rules, the Hakurei Barrier, the village, Gensokyo Chronicle, even the youkai exterminators...all these things are directly in service to that simple meaning.

As to what Yukari is up to, I can only guess.  There might be belief shenanigans, though I'd think they'd go the opposite way than what PK suggests.  As FS keeps reminding us, Urban Legends are still A Thing.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #605 on: February 28, 2017, 05:59:06 AM »
I suppose what I'm asking is, how can youkai do anything if they're just an explanation for a phenomenon?
We've seen youkai wandering the village, we've seen girls flying, we've seen magical danmaku shows. How can you deny the existence of something that can walk up and punch you in the face?

To put it another way: if Kosuzu says "I deny that you're a youkai" and tries to punch Yukari in the face in the next chapter, what would happen? Could Yukari still gap her away?
Let's say the answer is yes. Doesn't that mean that youkai can affect the world whether you believe in them or not? And if something can affect the world, doesn't that mean it exists independently of belief? Why do youkai need to be shrouded in fear and mystery- just perform something that's impossible for humans and prove that you exist.

If Yukari is worried that outside world is believing in youkai less and less, then why not just do something that proves her existence? Wouldn't gapping a train into a city be enough to convince most people she exists? And if she can't just do that, why not? Why is she able to destroy the human village, but not gap a train into a city?

As for the meteor example, that's valid. A meteor destroys a village, people blame it on youkai, therefor youkai "exist". But if that's the case, doesn't that mean that everything we know about touhou, all the incidents, the magical danmaku battles, all the cute monster girls, wouldn't that mean they were all just lies in universe?
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #606 on: February 28, 2017, 11:59:20 AM »


You can't deny what was harming you, but it's possible to be mistaken about what was harming you. For me, thats a more proper way to interpret what Marisa said.
I just think that "deny" thing are just not possible. Regardless of current belief of youkai in Gensokyo, what was already there are gonna be there, they just need maintenance and the lack of it doesn't necessarily erase them immediately.

Youkai can always proves their "might" to outside world. Theres example of youkai that had done so, the personal house loli Zashiki-warashi that migrate to outside world to "work" but eventually come back not too long after, & surprisingly adopting modern make-up.

That event demonstrate theres a "condition" with maintaining their "might" in outside world. Whether that "condition" are influenced by Yukari "things" or something else, i don't know. It can even be just a simple disinterest by the youkai side. But for Zashiki-warashi case, the "condition" are because the demand for them are deemed as not qualifying (i think they are saying "not the real thing").

Naturally, if something can't be maintained, they will eventually erode. So, persistently demonstrating their "might" can be not the best tactical action for them who only have a little world for "supplies", if in the end the "might" that they persistently demonstrate would eventually end up help their enemy developed immunity.
What appears to me is that the youkai are "surviving" meanwhile outside world are "progressing".

This is the most safe answer i could give without violating the thread conditions too much, i aware it might not be satisfying. To be honest im just trying only because i felt guilty from my previous post (where i kind of lose control lol).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:02:58 PM by MANoBadAssGar »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #607 on: February 28, 2017, 10:31:18 PM »
In Gensokyo's case specifically, I think it's rather relevant to remember the conversation that occurs in Part 3 of SoPM, in which Byakuren argues that the youkai of Gensokyo were liberated from human imagination and started to develop their own characteristics (though Miko argues that this isn't 100% true in that same conversation). With this in mind, it could be said that Gensokyo is an attempt by the youkai to actually progress themselves, instead of just surviving.

I wonder if the youkai in Gensokyo still really do need humans to survive, or if they just believe that they do (since that's how it always was for them).
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #608 on: February 28, 2017, 11:14:15 PM »
I suppose what I'm asking is, how can youkai do anything if they're just an explanation for a phenomenon?
We've seen youkai wandering the village, we've seen girls flying, we've seen magical danmaku shows. How can you deny the existence of something that can walk up and punch you in the face?

To put it another way: if Kosuzu says "I deny that you're a youkai" and tries to punch Yukari in the face in the next chapter, what would happen? Could Yukari still gap her away?
Let's say the answer is yes. Doesn't that mean that youkai can affect the world whether you believe in them or not? And if something can affect the world, doesn't that mean it exists independently of belief? Why do youkai need to be shrouded in fear and mystery- just perform something that's impossible for humans and prove that you exist.

If Yukari is worried that outside world is believing in youkai less and less, then why not just do something that proves her existence? Wouldn't gapping a train into a city be enough to convince most people she exists? And if she can't just do that, why not? Why is she able to destroy the human village, but not gap a train into a city?

As for the meteor example, that's valid. A meteor destroys a village, people blame it on youkai, therefor youkai "exist". But if that's the case, doesn't that mean that everything we know about touhou, all the incidents, the magical danmaku battles, all the cute monster girls, wouldn't that mean they were all just lies in universe?

The youkai belief of Gensokyo doesn't work on the individual level, though.  One human can deny youkai all they want, but as long as the society is still believing, the youkai will still exist.  And then Kosuzu busts her hand.  Like I said, it's all about politics.  And of course, once youkai are defined as concrete, tangible beings with concrete, tangible powers, they do become a lot easier to believe in.

This leads into another major conceptual basis of Gensokyo - reality there is not as strictly determined by causality the way ours is.  In both worlds there are causes and there are effects.  And for the most part, cause does still lead to effect.  But in the belief-based Gensokyo, the effects of Great Hakurei Barrier, and its boundary of illusion and reality make it possible for an effect with no known origin to have its own cause defined through human belief.  You can see this concretely numerous times throughout the series, most notably through the power of the Occult Balls and Urban Legends.  There will still always be a cause, but in Gensokyo, it doesn't have to be strictly defined in advance.

As for whether it all is a pack of lies, the Mary and Renko albums deal directly with this issue, and even get into the old chestnut of whether there's a difference between consciousness and reality.  Each of them comes to their own conclusion, and in the later ones, you can see this exact Gensokyo paradigm beginning to take shape.

In Gensokyo's case specifically, I think it's rather relevant to remember the conversation that occurs in Part 3 of SoPM, in which Byakuren argues that the youkai of Gensokyo were liberated from human imagination and started to develop their own characteristics (though Miko argues that this isn't 100% true in that same conversation). With this in mind, it could be said that Gensokyo is an attempt by the youkai to actually progress themselves, instead of just surviving.

I wonder if the youkai in Gensokyo still really do need humans to survive, or if they just believe that they do (since that's how it always was for them).

This is a very interesting line of thought.  We have seen quite a few things that don't make sense under the traditional Gensokyo metaphysics.  For instance, the Moriya Shrine faith mainly coming from youkai.
But let's turn this around.  If human belief defines Gensokyo's reality and is necessary for the existence of youkai, wouldn't the youkai try to find a way to become independent of the humans?  Really, they are almost at this point already.  They are just as much living, breathing beings with personality and sapience as any human.  They already manipulate the human belief to their own ends.
And now that the human belief's power over Gensokyo is at its highest thanks to a certain Incident, there is opportunity for change, both for Man and Youkai...
Spoiler:
and Kosuzu will probably be at the center of it all.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

Current status: Dissuading deliberately choking for imagined fame.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #609 on: February 28, 2017, 11:32:11 PM »
Alright. The last two posts are answers that leave me satisfied. Thanks for clarifying.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #610 on: February 28, 2017, 11:57:01 PM »
In Gensokyo's case specifically, I think it's rather relevant to remember the conversation that occurs in Part 3 of SoPM, in which Byakuren argues that the youkai of Gensokyo were liberated from human imagination and started to develop their own characteristics (though Miko argues that this isn't 100% true in that same conversation). With this in mind, it could be said that Gensokyo is an attempt by the youkai to actually progress themselves, instead of just surviving.

I wonder if the youkai in Gensokyo still really do need humans to survive, or if they just believe that they do (since that's how it always was for them).

Is progress probably like what Kogasa was doing? Article about her said she think she is successful when it's just a pretense and then she had a career change only to fail again and eventually revert back (where she apparently find a bit more of glory now). but don't know if this just Kogasa antics or some ecentric way to surprise people....
That shows that some youkai can be flexible, no matter by with/how they were born. Regardless whether the progress are fruitful or not, yes, attempt to probably not progress but changes, are not outside their scope. tho changes can be a progress depends on the scale.....
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:58:43 PM by MANoBadAssGar »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #611 on: March 01, 2017, 01:42:42 AM »
Progress is more like the whole of Tengu and Kappa society, actually. As Byakuren and the others say in that part, their current iterations don't resemble what they were in the past, because inside Gensokyo, they could better decide what they are. When I meant "progress", I meant in the sense of "trying to become more than just solid pieces of human imagination".
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #612 on: March 01, 2017, 05:35:01 AM »
Progress is more like the whole of Tengu and Kappa society, actually. As Byakuren and the others say in that part, their current iterations don't resemble what they were in the past, because inside Gensokyo, they could better decide what they are. When I meant "progress", I meant in the sense of "trying to become more than just solid pieces of human imagination".

So a progress of graduating from the idea of their originator, is it like that?

But since youkai by history are born from that of human imagination and even now the humans keep making babies new youkai, that would make it while their growth can be independent from human belief, their birth would still be dependent on human belief wouldn't it?

Now then it has come to this, who the artist of your avatar? are there higher resolution of it?

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #613 on: March 01, 2017, 01:06:04 PM »
So a progress of graduating from the idea of their originator, is it like that?

But since youkai by history are born from that of human imagination and even now the humans keep making babies new youkai, that would make it while their growth can be independent from human belief, their birth would still be dependent on human belief wouldn't it?
It seems like that, yeah. Though, considering there have been mentions of youkai actually reproducing (tengu lay eggs, at least, going by EaLND chapter 5), maybe they aren't completely dependant of humans to propagate.

But I think this is too speculative to discuss in this thread.

Now then it has come to this, who the artist of your avatar? are there higher resolution of it?
I don't remember. I found it on danbooru years ago. Now that I think about it I shouldn't have used it without asking permission from the artist...
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My fanfics.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #614 on: March 01, 2017, 09:15:45 PM »
I forgot that, that's good to keep in mind. and by appreciating the funguses, yeah

nyeh, things r lax ere, unless infighting ensues

I don't remember. I found it on danbooru years ago. Now that I think about it I shouldn't have used it without asking permission from the artist...
nah, everybody does it anyway
normal tag searching didn't find it, google image just as useful, it's unfair if everyone else have the higher res

Shadowlupus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #615 on: March 09, 2017, 03:04:30 AM »
So, what is our opinion on Maeriberry/Marrybelly/Maribel thing? And why it was never changed?

At Thai forum over here, they said that it can be either of the above but absolutely not Maribel. They thought that we never change it because no one objected when our head of translation mistranslated it. They add that If we are to change now, we would have to correct all misunderstandings in everything since inception including discussions on several webpages and imageboards. Even then, it would a case of "Yeah, I just mistranslated it" which would damage our wiki's reputation and credibility.

I'm not sure if their thought was right, so I would like hear why this is the case?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #616 on: March 09, 2017, 03:50:32 AM »
There was never an official translation/romanization of マエリベリー, partly because it was made up by ZUN and not an actual name. Maribel was just something that most closely resembled an actual name.

It mostly doesn't matter since Merry does the job.

Shadowlupus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #617 on: March 09, 2017, 04:05:05 AM »
Ah, I thought as much. Thanks.

And they were still going on with this dumb debate even if it is not official...

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #618 on: March 09, 2017, 06:38:12 AM »
Also see the bonus question asked to him off-camera at AWA. More context available at this thread.

Quote
Q: A question about Maeriberi Haan. It's understood her family name is based on Lafcadio Hearn, who took the Japanese name Yakumo Koizumi. What is her first name based on, and how do you write it in Romaji/Western writing?

ZUN: I don't know either.

In other words, not only is it a strictly unofficial discussion, but it officially cannot be known. Source is from Solamarle who was a major translator of Touhou works in years gone by and so is very reliable.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 06:43:10 AM by Drake »

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Shadowlupus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #619 on: March 09, 2017, 07:05:10 AM »
Haha, that's pretty much a case just like Yuma's Kattobingu (Yugioh ZEXAL) where discussions of its real meaning are pointless cuz it's a made-up word.

Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #620 on: March 09, 2017, 07:36:57 AM »
Also also, note that
They add that If we are to change now, we would have to correct all misunderstandings in everything since inception including discussions on several webpages and imageboards.
We have done this before. The terminology of "phantom" and "ghost" was one big one, and the whole "Ability to the extent of X" fiasco was another (in addition to other various things Tosiaki involved himself in). I'm sure there are more that aren't coming to mind right now.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #621 on: March 09, 2017, 10:47:55 PM »
What is it that separates fairies from youkai and gods? Is it just how strong they are? Like, we have the fairy of spring Lily White. What would have to happen for her to turn into a youkai of spring? Why wasn't she a youkai or a god of spring in the first place, whereas someone like the Akis were always gods? Or should I assume the Akis were fairies initially too?
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #622 on: March 10, 2017, 12:44:02 AM »
Fairies are incarnations of natural phenomena, such as the blooming of flowers, the light of the stars, the fires of hell, and so forth.  As long as their nature exists, they will keep reviving.  At times their abilities may overlap with those of gods or youkai, but the biggest difference is that fairies don't get involved with the whole human belief deal.  Gods and youkai need someone to believe in them, while the seasons will turn whether or not they're believed in or not, barring another Spring Snow Incident.

Whether or not a fairy can become another type of being or not is unknown.  I personally believe that they can, that any being that gains enough faith can be a god, and any being that causes enough terror can be a youkai.  It may be a situation like with the Countless Gods, where ZUN has said that naming and defining the god may give it faith and power, but it also restricts it to a certain domain.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #623 on: March 10, 2017, 03:52:10 AM »
Sophilia gets the gist across. Youkai are manifestations of specific fears and superstitions, precisely because those fears and superstitions are imagined as actual beings. Fairies are more like phenomena that just plainly exist, and would "depend on belief" only the the very general way that things like magic also would. There's no reason individual fairies couldn't change their existence to be that of a youkai, but that's more up to how they're already perceived.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #624 on: March 12, 2017, 04:25:08 AM »
Sophilia gets the gist across. Youkai are manifestations of specific fears and superstitions, precisely because those fears and superstitions are imagined as actual beings. Fairies are more like phenomena that just plainly exist, and would "depend on belief" only the the very general way that things like magic also would. There's no reason individual fairies couldn't change their existence to be that of a youkai, but that's more up to how they're already perceived.
If fairies don't rely on human belief to exist then why do they only seem to exist in Gensokyo? I'm assuming there aren't fairies all over the place in the outside world. Is the Gensokyo environnment more suited to them somehow or do they actually exist in the outside world but are just not known?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #625 on: March 12, 2017, 04:53:21 AM »
I couldn't answer that for sure, and I don't really have a good guess either. My haphazard thoughts would be that fairies, being manifestations of nature, kind of "are" the nature; they don't pop into existence because of the nature, the nature is what they are, and the physical manifestations are what you'd call fairies. This idea is supported by PMiSS which uses much of the same wordings ("embodiment", "nature itself", etc). With that in mind, they're everywhere in Gensokyo because the belief in fairies as a phenomenon is commonplace, but people in the Outside World don't really believe much in fairies. The nature still exists, but the physical manifestations might not be widespread. This is a key difference with youkai, who are much more specific and individual as targets of belief, and are thought of as the cause/explanation for mysterious happenings, rather than existing as a part of said happenings.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 04:56:50 AM by Drake »

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MANoBadAssGar Jr.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #626 on: March 12, 2017, 10:07:38 AM »
There also fairies in hell, while there i assume no any living people. Maybe even souls of dead people can also fuel that belief? or maybe something other than human can also fuel their(fairy) existence?
Or are fairies in hell actually something different than fairies in Gensokyo ?

Sophilia

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #627 on: March 12, 2017, 02:34:17 PM »
The existence of hell may be due to the living believing in it, but once hell exists, it will have its own nature, and nature is what generates fairies.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #628 on: March 12, 2017, 04:48:30 PM »
From what I understand, Lampads work differently than other fairies. They don't necessarily have to be born from nature.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #629 on: March 12, 2017, 06:21:42 PM »