Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating  (Read 196504 times)

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #510 on: October 14, 2016, 04:31:43 AM »
The Hourai Elixir uses her power as one of its "ingredients", so it's definitely related to immortality but probably not enough on its own. Remember that "enough power to manipulate X" does not mean they can freely control X in all its forms. Even Yukari, with power over boundaries, can't simply waltz through the Lunar Capital's barrier. Each character has specific limitations that are generally left vague until ZUN brings it up in a later work.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #511 on: October 15, 2016, 10:30:41 PM »
Sanae said in Moutain of Faith that shrine maidens will eventually become gods... has Reimu become a God yet?
1CC Easy: UFO , MOF, PCB, DDC, GFW, POFV, TD, IN, SA, 1CC Normal: MOF, DDC, IN, POFV, PCB, TD, EOSD, HSIFS
Extra Mode: Ran Yakumo, Okina Matara

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #512 on: October 16, 2016, 12:22:31 AM »
ZUN gives out a special thanks to "ant" and "fang".
Who are they?

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #513 on: October 16, 2016, 01:31:52 AM »
Personal friends of him, duh.
My old avatars: Old ass turtle, Unzan - Second and Current Avatar by the talented Aoshi-shi

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #514 on: October 16, 2016, 03:27:26 AM »
Sanae said in Moutain of Faith that shrine maidens will eventually become gods... has Reimu become a God yet?
No she doesn't. She just claims she's an arahitogami, and explains that humans worshiping gods can become worshiped as gods themselves, and that shrine maidens can become gods in this way.

The point is establishing that Sanae, a priestess that channels the power of the gods she worships, can perform miracles and potentially be treated as a living god; an arahitogami. In the outside world that was somewhat the case, but in Gensokyo people see her as the human she is, that happens to be able to channel power from a few gods. People don't really give her faith, and so she has barely any power as an arahitogami.

EDIT: Hey this pointed me towards an error in her SoPM article. Win.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 07:16:06 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #515 on: October 30, 2016, 07:47:23 PM »
In Double Dealing Character, when you beat Raiko with Sakuya A, this dialogue happens:

Sakuya: "If there was a blade that was desecrated by the Mallet's power and started causing problems... If that blade changed hands,
would that mean the magic power would be changed?"

Raiko: "Hmm, let's see... If the user had a strong spirit, then probably. But since the Mallet's magic is still intact, its magic could affect you."

Sakuya: "I-I was just speaking hypothetically. "

Raiko: "I know you're hiding it. The blade in your hand... It's suffering. "

WHAT THE HELL SHE MEANING WITH THIS? I know that Sakuya has a lot of conspiracy around her character, but I don't understand why Raiko says this. Here the original line: 隠したって判るわよ その手の剣??苦しんでいるもの

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #516 on: October 31, 2016, 02:32:21 AM »
Well, kind of the point of the A-types is that their tools have been slowly turning into tsukumogami due to the Mallet's magic. The magic corrupted them, and by using them it slowly corrupted the player as well, hence why they were all bloodthirsty. That's all it's referring to.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Failure McFailFace

  • I'm h...a...p...p...y...
  • Impor
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #517 on: October 31, 2016, 04:11:43 AM »
Well, kind of the point of the A-types is that their tools have been slowly turning into tsukumogami due to the Mallet's magic. The magic corrupted them, and by using them it slowly corrupted the player as well, hence why they were all bloodthirsty. That's all it's referring to.
At what point does a tsukumogami get a humanoid form in Gensokyo? Does it have to reach a certain age, or does it just... happen?
1cc Easy: DDC (all) | 1cc Normal: UFO (SanA autobomb),  DDC (ReiA, SakA) , LoLK (Sanae PD)| EX clears: DDC (MarB Ultra) | Puzzle Games: StB: 10-X, DS: Hatate unlock, ISC: All clear

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #518 on: October 31, 2016, 04:30:59 AM »
i dunno lol

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #519 on: October 31, 2016, 06:22:12 AM »
i dunno lol

According to Japanese myth, an object turns into a Tsukumogami when it turns 100 years old.
My old avatars: Old ass turtle, Unzan - Second and Current Avatar by the talented Aoshi-shi

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #520 on: October 31, 2016, 06:33:59 AM »
That wasn't the question, though.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #521 on: October 31, 2016, 10:49:07 AM »
It's probably more a matter of power than time. The Tsukumo sisters and Raiko aren't any older as tsukumogami than Reimu's gohei, iirc. I would imagine the same applies to animal youkai: eventually they develop enough magical power to physically transform, but it's something they have to consciously do and varies from individual to individual. It's essentially a spell they can learn to cast on themselves, not a automatic function of being a youkai of a certain age.

I would also imagine that most of them can choose to be in whichever form they feel more comfortable in: it's mention in SoPM that Shou is a special case who has forgotten her own animal form. We only ever really see Orin actively transform, but I'd imagine it's common among both youjuu and tsukumogami. In other words, I don't think the human form is especially "natural" or "inevitable". It's just a form they can choose to take.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 10:52:54 AM by Clarste »

Camilo113

  • Luck, Resilience and Perseverance
  • Gensokyo is capable of change
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #522 on: November 02, 2016, 02:15:22 AM »
Celestial aren't supposed to be true immortals, they just manage to defeat the kishin that comes to collect their soul on a routine basis, continually extending their lifespan. Now, Celestials reside in Heaven, a Pure Land, which do not possess any kind of impurities, how does this works? If Celestials bear the concept of life and death within them then they are tainted beings. How is then Heaven a kegare-free land?

I tought maybe Kaguya's quote "even the citizens of the lunar capital bear just the faintest trace of impurity" in CiLR about how Lunar citizens can die could be the answer but it's not the same, after all Celestials die because their life ended its cycle, while Lunarians die because of accidents and such. Am I missing something or it's a misconception on my part?


Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #523 on: November 02, 2016, 02:34:46 AM »
Well, first of all it's not clear that Celestials fight kishin. In fact, I would say they don't. Originally it was said that they fight shinigami, but then Komachi later says that shinigami never collect souls at all: death happens on its own, and if the Ministry of Right and Wrong really wants someone dead they send a kishin. While you could take that to mean that they actually send kishin to collect Celestials, frankly the way I read it (based partly on the way Tenshi reacts while talking to Komachi), is that the Ministry simply doesn't try to kill Celestials, ever. It's just not on their list of things to do. Instead, they send shinigami just to "test" them or whatever, to see if they're still worthy of being ignored. The whole point of WaHH 10, or wherever that was, is that everyone misunderstands what the job of a shinigami is, and I don't see why Celestials would be exempt from that. That being the case, I would assume Celestials are naturally kegare-free.

That said, I think you're also misunderstanding the point about the citizens of the Lunar Capital bearing a trace of impurity. It's not that they can die, it's that they will die, eventually. To paraphrase Lovecraft, "given strange aeons, even the deathless may die." It certainly would have been a scandal if any of them had ever died from an accident or anything. The Lunarian strategy is essentially to be entirely outside the cycle of life and death, and therefore be no more mortal than an inanimate object. That's what it means to have no kegare: to be neither alive nor dead. This is why Clownpiece was such a threat to them in LoLK, bringing life energy to the moon also brings the possibility of death to it. But it's clear that they're already considered the teensiest bit alive anyway, just from their own history. It's also worth noting that they're all Shinto gods though. It's not like death to them would mean the same thing it does to a human in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 02:37:25 AM by Clarste »

Camilo113

  • Luck, Resilience and Perseverance
  • Gensokyo is capable of change
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #524 on: November 02, 2016, 03:06:20 AM »
I also found odd that a kishin was the one sent to fight the Celestials, after all Celestial's bodies are toxic to youkai which would mean they had an enormous disadvantage.

 That said, from what I understood Celestials are no diferent from Lunarians in terms of purity, and this happens because the Ministry doesn't care about Celestials anymore; then it means being ignored by the Ministry leaves you out of the life-death cycle, becoming an amortal? I guess it kinda make sense.

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #525 on: November 02, 2016, 03:55:29 AM »
Celestial's bodies are toxic to youkai which would mean they had an enormous disadvantage
Toxic in terms of eating.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #526 on: November 02, 2016, 06:24:12 AM »
Food poisoning.

Camilo113

  • Luck, Resilience and Perseverance
  • Gensokyo is capable of change
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #527 on: November 02, 2016, 06:21:33 PM »
Toxic in terms of eating.
Food poisoning.
Ah so that what it was. Thanks for clarifying.

It's not that they can die, it's that they will die, eventually.

Really? I always understood Toyohime's phrase: "月の民も月の兎も不老不死ではない為、事故や戦いによって死ぬ事はあるだろう。" as she was trying to make a distinction between a Lunar inhabitant, a pure being who is absent of death, and a Person of Hourai who are not capable of dying in any kind of circumstance. She just theorized that if a kegare-free being can indeed be killed then it means it's not that pure to begin with.


Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #528 on: November 02, 2016, 07:13:33 PM »
That's Toyohime's perspective, she could easily be subject to bias.
My old avatars: Old ass turtle, Unzan - Second and Current Avatar by the talented Aoshi-shi

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #529 on: November 03, 2016, 01:22:46 AM »
Well, she doesn't mention Hourai immortals, and really there's no reason for her to mention them. It's pretty face-value; the Lunarians carry minute traces of kegare, and so they don't actually have infinite lifespans, just incredibly long ones, to the point where it's unknown whether any Lunarian has ever died naturally.

Death itself isn't something Lunarians are particularly concerned with avoiding. It isn't as though they aim to eliminate kegare in order to not die; they aim to avoid death to eliminate kegare.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #530 on: November 03, 2016, 01:55:40 AM »
So what was the whole big deal about the Hourai Elixir, then? If the Lunarian's goal is just to eliminate Kegare for the sake of eliminating it, wouldn't it be beneficial for them ALL to take the Hourai Elixir and remove whatever small amount of impurity they have?
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Camilo113

  • Luck, Resilience and Perseverance
  • Gensokyo is capable of change
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #531 on: November 03, 2016, 02:06:33 AM »
By taking the Hourai Elixir, you add the concept of death to your being when you become deathless, and by consequence you become tainted with kegare.

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #532 on: November 03, 2016, 04:04:25 AM »
Again, this is kind of the issue with people conflating kegare with death. The presence of kegare is what influences "change" (in the abstract) and therefore deterioration, sickness, death, etc, and being "around" that kegare spreads it to you. But it doesn't follow that removing life and death from yourself should make you free of kegare, that's backwards. I also don't think "adding the concept of death" quite gets the point across, even if it's kind of accurate? It feels to me more like they're thinking of some TYPE-MOON-like thing where now the thing is related to death in some abstract capacity.

It's mused upon that kegare spread throughout the Earth by valuing life over all, and killing others in order to survive. Things on the Earth treasure life over all, and by doing so taint themselves with the idea of death; if living is the best, death is the worst. If you need to kill to survive, you spread the death of others by valuing your own life, spreading that taint throughout the world. But it's suggested that if only life wasn't treasured as such, the taint of deterioration and death would not have taken hold, and lifespans could be however long.

This leads into both of the concepts behind the Hourai Elixir and the Lunarians. The Lunarians figured that kegare, this taint, was what influenced the deterioration and death of the world. So just as beings from the ocean came up to the kegare-free land, the Lunarians moved to the kegare-free Moon. The difference is that they stopped valuing life itself and killing others to maintain it, so the taint of kegare doesn't spread. Meanwhile, taking the Hourai Elixir is giving into the temptation of eternal life, valuing life above all and rejecting death, which gives you that very same taint. This is partly why the Lunarians have been said to test humans with the Elixir, to see if they value life itself over living. (EDIT: Following was just a side comment, see Clarste's argument) Eirin says that a human taking the Elixir invites an eternity of suffering, where you are not even allowed to die, unable to live with humans as a human. It's seen as an awful existence in general, which I suppose is why Eirin feels so ashamed about Kaguya's fate.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 01:57:33 PM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #533 on: November 03, 2016, 12:38:06 PM »
Eirin took the elixir herself too though. And she herself killed Lunarian emissaries to help Kaguya escape. I don't think she personally has any ideological beliefs whatsoever. She's more like a mad scientist who does things simply to prove that she can. Tsukuyomi wanted to live in a world free of kegare, so she helped him get the moon. Kaguya wanted to see an elixir of immortality, so she made one for her. Kaguya wants to live on Earth, a world full of kegare, and Eirin makes that happen.

I mean, she clearly feels guilt towards Kaguya or she never would have done any of this in the first place, but you have to remember that Eirin is a fugitive from the moon, and for good reason. You can't really use her as an example of how the standard Lunarian thinks. Heck, even just based on your own arugment just now, Eirin's the one who wanted to kill Urashima Taro to protect the secrecy of the moon (ie: kill to live; the Watatsukis wanted to send him back alive). Eirin's kind of... a sociopath.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 12:42:12 PM by Clarste »

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #534 on: November 03, 2016, 01:54:43 PM »
Good enough for me. I really only mentioned Eirin because that last bit was in the same passage as her hypothesis about Lunarians drinking the Elixir, so I wasn't thinking too hard about it.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Hello Purvis

  • *
  • Hello Jerry
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #535 on: November 04, 2016, 03:06:58 AM »
Eirin took the elixir herself too though.

I recall this being a contentious thing. Was it established recently?

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #536 on: November 04, 2016, 03:35:47 AM »
I recall this being a contentious thing. Was it established recently?

Apparently there was a key line that was mistranslated, and it was never uncertain in Japanese. This was resolved years ago though, so I don't recall the details.

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #537 on: November 04, 2016, 05:22:17 AM »
It's in IN's Netherworld team ending, which was really badly translated in general. A lot of the endings of IN read like gibberish.

「まだ、死にたくは無いわ。それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。残念だけど、冥界のお世話にはなれないのよ。」
"Well, I don't want to die just yet. Besides, I've taken the medicine made with the Princess' power. Sorry to say, but I really can't become the Netherworld's caregiver."

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Hello Purvis

  • *
  • Hello Jerry
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #538 on: November 04, 2016, 07:24:16 AM »
Well don't that beat all? Thanks, gang!

KR

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #539 on: November 05, 2016, 11:43:52 PM »
I don't know if anyone realized that before, but I post anyways.
?Could Kikuri, that rare bronced boss of TH1, be maybe that (gold?) medal of the PCB' third stage beginning? The two hold a strage orb in the hands, are a medal and have relatively close appaerance. It could be also a simple traditional portrait of Alice. ?What do you think?

Comparative: