Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating  (Read 196505 times)

commandercool

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #390 on: June 07, 2016, 06:40:41 PM »
Is there any kind of moral lessons behind Touhou stories? Or it is just that "Gensokyo is not a playground for you to put your typically uninspired OCs in and make a bad harem fanfiction out of it."

Maybe this should be a separate post, but this is something I've been thinking about lately, especially in the sense of how Touhou relates to nostalgia and traditionalism. I'm certainly not the most informed person about this and I definitely don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, but it's been on my mind.

It seems easy to accuse Touhou and ZUN of being overly nostalgic or pro-tradition given the setting and the way ZUN chooses to do business. Is that actually the case though? Most Touhous ultimately seem to be fools, or at least prone to foolishness, and I get a vague impression (particularly from Forbidden Scrollery and Wild And Horned Hermit, which are definitely the print works I'm most familiar with although I'm not quite caught up) that the old-fashioned characters (Reimu in particular)  are the ones who come off as fools most often. Maybe that's just because ZUN favors that kind of character so we see them the most and therefore see them make the most mistakes, but comparatively the more modern characters (the Moriya crew and maybe the Kappa) seem to come out on top more often.

Is that maybe a sign of ZUN's mindset? Is there a message in Touhou about the folly of living in the past? This is a seriously half-baked idea with absolutely nothing to back it up so please don't take it as an actual claim or theory, but it's something I've been considering and I'd be interested to hear anyone else's take on it.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #391 on: June 07, 2016, 10:25:10 PM »
I think the most common moral is that different people are different and that needs to be respected. Imposing your morality on them is especially wrong, even if it seems like a good thing.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #392 on: June 07, 2016, 11:56:03 PM »
Naw, because spellcards were imposed, and Reimu imposes all the time.

I think the real moral is don't kill people because you disagree with them, in defiance of a lot of video game standards, but perhaps this is quietly going out the window these days?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #393 on: June 08, 2016, 02:04:32 AM »
Another prominent theme is "you can't get something for nothing."  A lot of what commander is talking about, with people being made fools of, is them trying to do exactly that, and ending up as the butt.  But it goes quite a bit deeper than that.  For all the great things about Gensokyo and its inhabitants to even be, there is a huge price to be paid.  It's a dichotomy mirrored by the official works; someone reading Three Fairies or some Rinnosuke articles will get the impression of a cute, light-hearted Gensokyo, while someone reading Akyuu's works or Forbidden Scrollery will realize this place is actually really fucked up.  And the best thing is?  They're both equally correct.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 02:08:48 AM by Sophilia »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #394 on: June 08, 2016, 04:39:24 AM »
I don't think the games themselves have any sort of moral points. It's more or less "Reimu beats up whoever's in her way" and that's that. Reimu's the kind of person with a lot of power which means she can more or less do whatever she wants. There's no moral to be found there lol.

As for the side works...

Individual chapters might have obvious morals, but as a whole the written works are pretty ambiguous.

Spoiler:
SSiB had a little bit of a message in that "pride comes before a fall", with the way Yukari begged on her knees but still managed to "win" in the end, against the Lunarians who believed themselves to be VASTLY superior to the IMPURE Earthlings. Of course, the message here is kind of watered down given Yukari "winning" is just stealing their alcohol :V.

Forbidden Scrollery seems to be conveying the message of knowing your place, with Kosuzu finding herself in more and more trouble the more ambitious she gets with her books.

I don't see anything in WaHH yet, but I can definitely see some big message coming out depending on what happens when/if Kasen makes the reveal.

I don't see any overarching messages in the 3 fairies comics, personally.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 04:44:28 AM by TresserT »
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CyberAngel

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #395 on: June 08, 2016, 06:45:25 AM »
I don't think the games themselves have any sort of moral points.

PoFV has a (possibly unintentional) message that, no matter who you are, you're not without flaws and could use a lesson or two. And ULiL's message is pretty much what Kage said. Other than that, some endings and some manga chapters might be showing ZUN's views on some topics.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #396 on: June 08, 2016, 11:02:33 AM »
PoFV has a (possibly unintentional) message that, no matter who you are, you're not without flaws and could use a lesson or two. And ULiL's message is pretty much what Kage said. Other than that, some endings and some manga chapters might be showing ZUN's views on some topics.

I think this is closer to the truth. There are overarching themes across the games, of course, but individual games can also have their individual "messages". Some of these messages you might have to squint at to see, because I don't think ZUN overall tries to deliberately insert a specific message very often. But they do happen.

Would be a fun topic to explore in its own thread, too, I think.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #397 on: June 11, 2016, 10:25:07 PM »
I don't know if this was asked before in the thread or previous thread versions.

Alice's design in Mystic Square is obviously inspired to display Alice from 'Alice in Wonderland'. I mean, the Extra stage even contains the soldier cards and some card king in the middle of the stage. In Touhou 7 she returns but completely redesigned as if to avoid copy right issues. Or because typical ZUN PC98 reason: Forget about it and redesign and try not to find plot links. Even spell cards didn't really had a form back then.

But in Alice' case it is really hard to ignore. PMiSS only reveals her as a human who have become a magician through training. Did she do that perhaps in Makai? Also meeting her in Makai in Touhou 5 just feels odd. She even refers to that meeting in Reimu's PCB scenario.

She also used that book/grimoire to fight in MS Extra, but in PMiSS she is told to be a highly skilled doll user and not the book?

Just who is she anyway?

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #398 on: June 11, 2016, 11:01:32 PM »
If you assume PC-98 never happened, nothing requires any explaining at all. Just, you know, for the record.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 04:53:06 AM by Clarste »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #399 on: June 11, 2016, 11:42:17 PM »
To back up Clarste's words:

Quote from: ZUN
There are a few contradictions in the story when putting the PC-98 and Windows games side by side, but I would take reference from the latest games to consider what is canon.

So if PMiSS says she's just a human-turned-magician without any mention of Makai, then she's just a human-turned-magician with no relation to Makai. It would be strange that such a major fact was never mentioned in any of her profiles had it still applied to her current version. So whatever can be seen as connection between PC-98 and Windows eras is nothing more than a throwback.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #400 on: June 12, 2016, 04:27:33 AM »
Makai doesn't have to be a major factor, either.  Alice was there, but so what?  Reimu has been there three times, that doesn't suddenly make it a big deal for her.  Her being a human turned magician might have absolutely nothing to do with Makai.  She could have been there for the same reason as Marisa, to get more magic power.  And then EX stage happens.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #401 on: June 12, 2016, 04:32:26 AM »
Well, it comes down to whether you think she spent significant time there. If you go by the fanon that she was one of Shinki's creations, or an adopted child, it would have an influence on her.

BUT EVEN THEN: The past doesn't completely rule you. I always just went with the above, then assumed she escaped into Gensokyo for her own reasons and never saw the need to look back, which I feel is in character.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #402 on: June 12, 2016, 05:00:04 AM »
There was a bit of a debate on this a while ago, but here's my two cents.

ZUN says that if there are contradictions between PC98 and windows, accept windows. However, PMiSS is also known to be not 100% accurate. No one except Akyuu has ever mentioned Alice being human. No one's ever even alluded to it. It's not in any official profile, it's not in any print work, there is no evidence EXCEPT Akyuu's word. It is entirely possible that Akyuu is just wrong. It's happened before.

On top of that, there's tons of evidence that PC98 Alice = Windows Alice.

Firstly ZUN actually said they are the same person.

Secondly, they share the same abilities. I don't know why everyone forgets, but in MS stage 3, Alice used fairy-like familiars just like Windows Alice. In Windows canon, Alice is stated to be wary of using her grimoire due to it's power. She can use it, she just chooses not to. Hell, her Perfect Cherry Blossom profile says that she's a versatile magician, and only recently gained an interest in dolls. This whole "PC98 Alice is a grimoire user but Windows Alice is a doll magician" is just silly. Both versions of Alice have used dolls in game, and both versions can use the Grimoire.

Thirdly, there are multiple in game references to Alice and Reimu/Marisa having a history, alluding to MS. I won't go into the details, but just read the PCB dialogue.

Lastly, and this is a bit of a meta example, but in Soku Alice uses Grimoire of Alice as her theme.

Too many people just assume "Windows Alice is a human-turned-youkai but PC98 was born and raised in Makai therefor PC98 isn't valid." That isn't necessarily the case. It's way more blurry than that. It's not only possible, it's plausible that Windows Alice was never human in the first place.

Now on the flip side I'll admit; generally when Akyuu is wrong, it's made obvious. Usually there's an obvious reason as to why she'd be wrong, whether it's because:
  • Youkai give her bad information
  • She has obvious reasons for being misinformed (such as in the Lunarian's case)
  • She openly admits to speculation (such as in Sakuya's case)

This isn't how it is with Alice. There's no obvious reason for Alice to tell Akyuu she used to be human. There's no reason for Akyuu to assume that Alice used to be human. And in context, it wouldn't make sense for Akyuu to provide that kind of information if it were just speculation.

Another thing we have to keep in mind. ZUN's stance on PC98 has flip-flopped dramatically over the years. Sometimes he says it's absolutely canon, sometimes he says it's absolutely not, his latest statement was "it's canon as long as it doesn't contradict Windows" IIRC. It's entirely possible that ZUN originally meant for both Alices to be the same back when PCB was released, then changed his mind as the series progressed.

Because it's so blurry as to what we can trust and what we can't, there very well might not be an answer. As someone said in another thread, Gensokyo isn't real. ZUN might not have thought of a history for Alice, or he might have thought up one and changed his mind later on. The pieces might not fit together.

Personally I choose to believe that both Alices are the same and Akyuu is just wrong for whatever reason. I believe that because, besides this whole Alice thing, there are no contradictions between PC98 and Windows. But that's a rant for another time.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 05:50:04 AM by TresserT »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #403 on: June 12, 2016, 05:26:30 AM »
I do believe both Alice versions are the same being as well.  It makes sense both with the games' dialogue, and the profiles that accompany them.  Why is Alice described as being scared to go all out?  Because she did that once in MS Extra and Yuuka came and stomped all over her.

But there's no evidence against the origin Akyuu writes of, and I don't believe it contradicts anything in either the Windows or PC-98 games.  So I take it as it is.  Whether you believe she comes from Makai, Gensokyo, Romania, or wherever, she can still have been human at one point.  I like the Gensokyo version myself, but it's really a matter of opinion there.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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Helepolis

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #404 on: June 12, 2016, 07:16:46 AM »
If you assume PC-98 never happened, nothing requires any explaining at all. Just, you know, for the record.
True, it makes it might easier and removes any confusion. I mean, Marisa had Demon Wings in PoDD.

Makai doesn't have to be a major factor, either.  Alice was there, but so what?  Reimu has been there three times, that doesn't suddenly make it a big deal for her.  Her being a human turned magician might have absolutely nothing to do with Makai.  She could have been there for the same reason as Marisa, to get more magic power.  And then EX stage happens.
Not in relationship to Alice, but Makai was the place also where Byakuren was sealed and released by our heroines. And Byakuren is a magician too. Now whether she obtained/learned magic from/in Makai isn't mentioned anywhere either in her profile nor dialogues. It kind of strikes me curious that Alice and Byakuren are true magicians and have both been in contact with Makai.

@TresserT, The assumption people make "Windows Alice is a human-turned-youkai" is wrong because she isn't a youkai. About the 'nobody except Akyuu mentioned her being human' is bit confusing. Aya calls her part of the Magician race and therefore not human while saying she looks like a human. (See BAiJR interview). Unfortunately her dialogues in PCB are quite shallow to make anything out of it. She doesn't even make the "long time no see" comment at Marisa but mentions it with Reimu.

Alice was a doll user in PC98 too, this was mentioned at various places but only in PMiSS it was firmly confirmed her being very skilled doll user.

For now I think sticking with Clarste's approach would be considered most safe. Makes it easier to understand her design, personality and history. The rest will be always shrouded in mystery because: ZUN.



« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 07:18:36 AM by Helepolis »

CyberAngel

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #405 on: June 12, 2016, 09:13:58 AM »
It is entirely possible that Akyuu is just wrong. It's happened before.

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We've been through this already. Could you please stop? This line of thinking can make whole PMiSS useless as a source. What would be the point of releasing it (for us, not in-universe) if it couldn't be trusted except for obvious cases?

There's no obvious reason for Alice to tell Akyuu she used to be human. There's no reason for Akyuu to assume that Alice used to be human. And in context, it wouldn't make sense for Akyuu to provide that kind of information if it were just speculation.

How do you draw the conclusion that Akyuu is wrong from this is beyond to me. Because it can be explained by Alice deciding to tell her that she's a human-turned-magician. There's no reason for her not to. It's likely not that big of a deal.

Now whether she obtained/learned magic from/in Makai isn't mentioned anywhere either in her profile nor dialogues.

She became magician before being imprisoned in Hokkai. Though it would be quite ironic if she got her magic from it.

It kind of strikes me curious that Alice and Byakuren are true magicians and have both been in contact with Makai.

Patchouli has no known ties to Makai. While this isn't ruled out, overgeneralizing still isn't a good idea.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #406 on: June 12, 2016, 10:04:15 AM »
We've been through this already. Could you please stop? This line of thinking can make whole PMiSS useless as a source. What would be the point of releasing it (for us, not in-universe) if it couldn't be trusted except for obvious cases?

To serve as an expression of what popular misconceptions are, and thus show us how the setting works with regards to bad information. Just because there are some parts that are incorrect doesn't mean the whole thing is now without worth, it just means one has to think about what they read.

Patchouli has no known ties to Makai. While this isn't ruled out, overgeneralizing still isn't a good idea.

Isn't Koakuma officially a Makaijin?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #407 on: June 12, 2016, 10:10:41 AM »
Isn't Koakuma officially a Makaijin?

No. Not like fandom cares, of course, but it's still just fanon, even if widely accepted.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #408 on: June 12, 2016, 10:11:45 AM »
Isn't Koakuma officially a Makaijin?

No, she's not. Makai wasn't mentioned again in the Windows series until UFO, and Koakuma herself barely even gets referenced in the first place.

Regarding PMiSS, I would think we're supposed to assume it's correct unless it contradicts something else we know, like how Akyuu is clearly wrong about the Lunarians in her articles. And if post-PC-98 stuff is supposed to take precedence over PC-98 stuff like someone else mentioned, it follows that there's no reason to believe that Akyuu is wrong about this specific fact.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 10:59:15 AM by Clarste »

CyberAngel

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #409 on: June 12, 2016, 10:24:17 AM »
I'd say that Alice actually wanted her article to mention her species (article subjects could review their articles, you know), and she's not the kind to lie about anything (if bullfinches are to be trusted ;)).

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #410 on: June 12, 2016, 10:29:55 AM »
Oh right, Patchouli as a magician is also one hell of another story. As the SDM like suddenly was BOOM, summoned into Gensoukyo.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #411 on: June 12, 2016, 11:00:43 AM »
What is Keine's deal anyway? I'm assuming the villagers have no idea that she's a youkai, but her general position seems at complete odds with how Gensokyo's balance is shaping up as of late.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #412 on: June 12, 2016, 11:26:49 AM »
Our best knowledge of Keine comes from Aya's article on her.  While it of course has its biases, the main thrust of it, that Keine is someone keeping the balance of belief and fear, is still sound and fits with what we know of the world.  In this article, she's against the agitating humans, while in Imperishable Night she's looking out against a threat from youkai.

In my opinion, her position as a teacher of children may make her more important to this balance than even Reimu or Yukari.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #413 on: June 12, 2016, 02:31:59 PM »
To serve as an expression of what popular misconceptions are, and thus show us how the setting works with regards to bad information. Just because there are some parts that are incorrect doesn't mean the whole thing is now without worth, it just means one has to think about what they read.

I think what CyberAngel is getting at here is that PMiSS is not as unreliable as fans often contend. Akyuu can be unreliable, but in the instances where she's off-base, it's usually very obvious. So the dismissal or downplaying of what's in PMiSS casts too wide a net, and it's something we go through every time someone casts aspersions on PMiSS.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #414 on: June 12, 2016, 05:19:40 PM »
We've been through this already. Could you please stop? This line of thinking can make whole PMiSS useless as a source. What would be the point of releasing it (for us, not in-universe) if it couldn't be trusted except for obvious cases?
Sigh. I never doubted PMiSS's validity as a whole. However, I can't see YOU'RE line of thinking. Any time there has been a contradiction between PMiSS and another work, we've accepted the other work or at least doubted Akyuu. Why is this different? Why do you automatically assume that, even though there are contradictions, Akyuu must be definitely 100% accurate this time? If Akyuu contradicted a Windows work, would you just look at it and say "Oh, the windows work must be wrong"? Before HM, people doubted Akyuu about Nitori being a racist. They said, we should take Nitori's in-game personality over Akyuu's description.

The only reason you wouldn't look at this with some scrutiny is if you've already decided in advance that PC98 isn't valid.

As for why ZUN would release it, as everyone knows it's an information dump. It's like I said, I'm not doubting every little thing Akyuu puts into it. I'm saying, here is a contradiction, don't just assume Akyuu is right. She didn't understand Lunarians were from the moon, this could also be a misunderstanding.
How do you draw the conclusion that Akyuu is wrong from this is beyond to me. Because it can be explained by Alice deciding to tell her that she's a human-turned-magician. There's no reason for her not to. It's likely not that big of a deal.
That was my point with that little snippet. I said, "Now on the flip side I'll admit; generally when Akyuu is wrong, it's made obvious. Usually there's an obvious reason as to why she'd be wrong, whether it's because: [reasons]". That was me admitting the counter point.

It seems like you only read the first couple sentences, assumed you knew what I was getting at, then only skimmed the rest.

The conclusion I reached at the end of that post was even "It's blurry. There's really no way to tell one way or the other. ZUN might have even changed his mind partway through the series." I said I personally choose to believe Akyuu is wrong, but there isn't really sufficient evidence for it. There just isn't sufficient evidence against it either.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 05:24:00 PM by TresserT »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #415 on: June 12, 2016, 05:47:29 PM »
What is Keine's deal anyway? I'm assuming the villagers have no idea that she's a youkai
It's impossible for the villagers not to know she's a youkai, since her article in PMiSS outright says she's a therianthrope.

She's only half youkai (since therianthropes are considered human when not transformed, and Keine's therianthropy is an "acquired characteristic", which means she was a completely normal human at one point), and she's clearly on the villagers' side, so that's likely why no one cares.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #416 on: June 12, 2016, 06:20:58 PM »
I said I personally choose to believe Akyuu is wrong, but there isn't really sufficient evidence for it. There just isn't sufficient evidence against it either.
fyi nothing in MS contradicts Akyuu. afaik not a single piece of info about Alice presented in any work at any time is incongruous with anything else. This whole thing is really a false dichotomy. But clearly it's the same character or he wouldn't have given her the same name and design, etc. The only way to escape this is to outright assume pc-98 never happened at all (which is a fair perspective to take).

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #417 on: June 12, 2016, 08:18:09 PM »
Just who is she anyway?

I think she was once a member of a team of thieves that ended up lost in Gensokyo, then because the rest decided to ditch their lives as thieves which she loved, she studied magic and used it to kill them all.  It was at that point she stopped being human.   /Dolls in Pseudo Paradise  This goes along with Akyuu's statement about her origins, albeit with the actual (perhaps horrific) details in place. (that same article says "Alice looks like a doll, herself.", which when combined with the fact that Genoskyo means "Paradise", leads to the symbolism of "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" = "Alice in Gensokyo".)


And um... I guess maybe she went to visit Makai at some point (The Ending of Dolls in Pseudo Paradise?) which explains why she's there for the PC-98 games.  Possibly.  *shrug*
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 08:20:41 PM by Tiamat »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #418 on: June 13, 2016, 12:36:13 AM »
Before HM, people doubted Akyuu about Nitori being a racist. They said, we should take Nitori's in-game personality over Akyuu's description.

Quote from: Nitori's in-game personality
I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.
She sucks up to Reimu and Marisa and passive-aggressively asks them to solve her problems for her (with both of them complaining she's being way too transparent)... then later she complains about the help, saying she doesn't owe Marisa any favors because she "forced her way in".

And then in SA she's much less subtle about it, to the point where Marisa thinks Nitori is trying to get her killed. But again, she immediately turns polite and humble when talking to Yuugi... at least once she realises Yuugi can hear her.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #419 on: June 13, 2016, 02:37:55 AM »
Nitori's an interesting case where people totally misread her personality, somehow.