Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating (Read 198121 times)

Romantique Tp · « **Reply #210 on:** February 27, 2016, 02:27:04 AM »

Quote from: Chirumiru-chan on February 27, 2016, 12:29:06 AM

Nobody even played the PC-98 games back when they came out.

LLS sold around 300 copies at Comiket despite being made for a dying platform. That was back when the average low profile doujin game release sold less than 100 copies at Comiket. The other games probably didn't do much worse.

Shadowlupus · « **Reply #211 on:** February 29, 2016, 12:51:47 PM »

Hello there! I don't know if this is the right thread to do this but I want to ask you guys about the wiki's translation.

Does adding "!" instead of "～" OR when there isn't one in the original, really change the tone of the speaker from the original that much?

Why I'm asking this? Well, a certain arrogant Japanese-expert douchebag, who is an admin and translator of my country's Touhou Wiki, often scoffs at your laborious work of translation. He says something like "Western's translation sucks/is unreliable because the translator often put "!" in the translation (games/books/mangas) when there isn't one in the original completely changing the tone of the speaker. Therefore, our wiki is better/more unreliable." Also, I heard that he also derides about our translation in FS Chapter 25.

To give you the example of the point he is trying to make. Here is the Japanese transcript of Kasen's dialogue from Reimu's ULiL Prologue scenario.

ふん
とぼけたって無駄よ

And here is the ULiL's English patch version.

Hmf.
It's no use playing dumb!

I think he is trying to say that in the original, Kasen speaks in a normal/calm/confident tone but in our English patch, Kasen is a lot more aggressive as if she was angry with Reimu because we add the !. These differences may change our understanding of Kasen?s personality and therefore we may add false overview for Kasen?s character (Ex. Kasen often speak aggressively) and therefore make the wiki unreliable.

So, does this guy's reasoning sounds stupid? Does adding "!" instead of "～" OR when there isn't one in the original, really change the tone of the speaker from the original that much?

That's all I want to ask. Sorry for the long description or if this question sounds stupid or my rant disturbs any of you guys. It just that while I can understand criticisms about its mistranslations, I cannot really stand any insult (like sucks or unreliable) to the Touhou Wiki or to the western folks at all, even if it comes from my country's folks. To me, even though I am not a westerner, this place and Touhou Wiki feels sort of like my internet home for a long time so these insults have severely rubbed me the wrong way.

Clarste · « **Reply #212 on:** February 29, 2016, 02:45:07 PM »

Well, first of all ～ is really stupid in English and I can't think of any reason to use it.

As for the exclamation marks, I can see his point, although I believe the idea behind that particular line was that よ was making it somewhat forceful, and that may not be properly conveyed with just a period. In my personal opinion, Japanese is a lot more conservative with exclamation marks than English language comics, so I'll often add them for what I consider a forceful line. On the other hand, maybe I just personally overuse them.

For the record though, I don't think there's any need for you to feel offended on behalf of the translators. There are a lot of problems in a lot of the translations (especially the older ones), and personally I would welcome constructive criticism. What exactly was the problem with FS 25 though? I can think of several things.

Drake · « **Reply #213 on:** February 29, 2016, 08:37:17 PM »

I agree with Clarste pointing out that because Japanese has various particles for emphasis there's often no need for them to add exclamation marks besides stylistically, and considering English is basically just implicit phrasing and punctuation, it can be difficult to directly communicate the feel of a phrase in translation. Especially so when there isn't also facial expressions or voice to go along with it. Arguing as though you should only put an exclamation where there's one in Japanese is definitely wrong. However, I agree that exclamation marks might not always be the best method to communicate some stressed lines, and I know I've translated lines without adding any. In this one case I'd agree one isn't needed. However however, nitpicking how characters sound with particular lines that aren't even necessarily important dialogue is way, way off the mark out of things that should be addressed in Touhou translations, and bringing up a line of dialogue like this one is suspect because it suggests there's nothing better to argue about.

Anyways, I really hope they aren't saying the line would change our understanding of Kasen's character, because it's Reimu's line.

FS 25 is hard to address at all largely because Japan doesn't have a consistent interpretation of the chapter either; it is very polarizing and full of new things to think about. Many comments made about that chapter I can think of wouldn't be fair to translators and potentially is just trying to parade your own understanding of the chapter.

andykhang · « **Reply #214 on:** March 01, 2016, 11:58:48 AM »

As you know,Tenshi's Sword of Hisou (or Sword of Scarlet Perception) have the ability to " change itself to channel the most effective attributes to counter that nature" (-Touhou Wiki). Basically (to my understanding) , it can shapeshift into many other form of weapon that's suit to deal with any sort of opponent. Tell me if I'm right first, because if I'm right... why there hasn't be any art that draw Tenshi's sword into other form of weapon? (really, i can't seem to find it taking the form of the others major weapon of Ancient Chinese that Jian (sword) is apart of: Gun (staff), Qiang (spear) or Dao (sabre). Not to mention the others weapon like gun, halberd, mace, etc...)

Could be that i haven't search enough though, but did the community truly lacked that much creativity, or i misunderstand something here?

Helepolis · « **Reply #215 on:** March 01, 2016, 12:25:23 PM »

ー is also another thing which is often translated in various forms. I don't think it is even possible to give the same feeling in English since it is a language specific thing.

I do remember some people see ～ as ー but with a 'playful' tone to it. I don't think that is correct, right? The ～ can be stuck behind anything, doesn't needs to involve extension of the character?

Example: ごめん～

Or is the ～ just stupid and should be avoided at all costs?

PK · « **Reply #216 on:** March 01, 2016, 12:26:58 PM »

Uh, i always thought that property-changing ability was something like changing the type of damage it would deal, rather than the actual shape. For example, if Tenshi fought Cirno it would deal heat/fire damage, while against a lunarian it would become something super-impure like Clownpiece.

Clarste · « **Reply #217 on:** March 01, 2016, 12:33:35 PM »

I feel like ending a line with ～ is the same sort of thing as including a heart or music note in the text bubble. It's not a specific phonetic marker, but implies a playful tone that may involve dragging certain syllables out. It's a voice, and there's no English equivalent other than trying to word the line in a sufficiently playful manner.

Helepolis · « **Reply #218 on:** March 01, 2016, 12:42:07 PM »

The reason why I ask this is because in my own game I let the translation occur from EN to JP (instead other way around). The TL was handled by a native JP person. I trust of course his TL and not intending to nitpick it, though I was curious in general since the case raised was interesting. Thank you Kageshirou for the case and thank you Clarste & Drake for the explanation.

andykhang · « **Reply #219 on:** March 01, 2016, 01:00:29 PM »

Yeah, but it could shapeshift itself too, and couple with the above, it's not too unreasonable to think that it could change at least into other ancient form of weapon.

TresserT · « **Reply #220 on:** March 01, 2016, 01:24:37 PM »

In most of the art I've seen, it's not even really a sword... it's more like a handle with fire shooting out of it, the fire being the "blade". Fire is shapeless, of course. I'd assume when it "changes shape" it's more like changing how far the fire reaches, or how wide the flame is.

Of course, I've never heard of this shape shifting thing until now so I completely made that up, it's just the first explanation I thought of when I saw it.

Shadowlupus · « **Reply #221 on:** March 01, 2016, 01:25:53 PM »

Clarste: Thank you for your explanation and advice. Nevertheless, I will try my best to make the Touhou Wiki a reliable source once again.

Drake: Oops, I messed up. I meant to says that the dialogue was Reimu's. :blush:

Helepolis: It's my pleasure to help you guys. Also, I'm much more happier to be here. My country's touhou wiki community is a complete idiot. They are biased against you western folks and will occasionally bring up discussions (and often mock us) about our Wiki translation whenever they can. They are also hypocrites; they say that westerner's translation is unreliable but their wiki also tends to be missing in translation/ or worse mistranslated. I don't like such behaviors at all. Even then, the translation, notes, observation there are very good and interesting so I could add them to our wiki or share with you guys. Again, It's my pleasure to help you guys.

Anyway, continuing from the above, there is nothing wrong in the chapter itself EXCEPT one thing that also appears everywhere else in the Touhou Wiki?s translation; the use of the word ?Extermination? (as in Youkai Extermination) This is also what that guy has been complaining about our translation, aside from the exclamation marks.

The following is the post made in one of his announcements from his wiki and I have translated those word for word for you guys. You may take his words as a grain of salt.

?About the ?killing? in FS Chapter 25?

?This chapter has been widely regarded as the first ?killing? that appears in the Touhou stories. Moreover, the killing is done by the main protagonist Reimu. However, I think that this actually results from mistranslation and misinterpretation. Even though in the chapter prior to the battle, there is a conversation about ?to kill (殺) wastefully? but in the end, Reimu stills says as always ?If it is a Youkai, I must subjugate (退治) it.? The word 退治 can be translated literally in English as ?Extermination? so does that mean Reimu completely annihilate the youkai? The answer is no, not at all. Rather, the word should be translated as ?to subjugate? because no matter how many times Reimu use ?this exact word? (He means ?退治?, btw) in fighting the Youkai in any of Touhou stories, none has ever ?died.? If you tell me that this word means killing, the Touhou characters would now have only Reimu and Marisa. (Laugh) Ah, I forgot that Mokou, Kaguya and Eirin cannot die. XD"

?Yes, in the manga, the youkai seems to be completely beaten but if you remember, PMiSS has stated about the youkai?s characteristic as this?

(This is his translation, not from our Wiki)
?   Youkai have stronger bodies than humans, so even if they're split into small pieces, they will return to normal soon.
?   Youkai are more easily affected by belief than humans, and as a result, spiritual damage can result in their death.

"There is also another way; Stop believing that Youkai exists (Ex. Telling people that it is not Youkai that they see, rather it is a natural phenomenon."

"As a result, regarding this matter, I stand firmly on my belief that ?Reimu just subjugate that Jinyou, not killing? However, if it is up to the other Touhou fans to decide what actually happens. I won?t intrude upon that matter as I do the translation part only.?

TL;DR He is suggesting that Reimu didn?t kill the Jinyou for two reasons:
1.   退治 in Touhou stories means subjugation not killing, which is the translation that appears everywhere in our Wiki. That?s why we believe that Reimu really kill the jinyou.
2.   The Jinyou is seen getting his head split by Reimu. However, according to the information about Youkai in PMiSS, he will return soon.

What do you think of all this?

Clarste · « **Reply #222 on:** March 01, 2016, 01:48:10 PM »

I don't think subjugation is really the correct word either, but I agree that I've often felt restrained by preexisting translations of important terminology like 退治 and 異変 ("incident"). However, in this case I think the fact that she uses the same word she always uses is precisely the point, and as he mentions no one ever dies from it (

Spoiler:

). In that sense, anyone who's familiar with Touhou should know that extermination is used in a non-literal sense as part of the "show" that she puts on of humans fighting youkai, a "show" that's mentioned several times throughout the series. Heck, the whole point of danmaku is to pretend to have fights to the death, complete with pre-battle banter that can be especially vicious with threats to eat people and whatnot. Needless to say, despite Remilia's dialog in EoSD Sakuya is still alive. I don't think changing the translation of 退治 in that line or anywhere would actually change people's opinions on what happened, since as you say his head was clearly split open, and frankly that's more of what people are reacting to. I doubt they even care about the line coming right before it. In fact, I know they don't because the fandom reaction to this "death" began from untranslated, out of context images of the panel.

It should also be noted that Reimu is the sort of person who describes Setsubun as a "Genocide Game". And, you know, the "I don't especially mind needless killing" line from the same chapter.

Prime32 · « **Reply #223 on:** March 01, 2016, 01:56:11 PM »

Quote from: Kageshirou on March 01, 2016, 01:25:53 PM

"As a result, regarding this matter, I stand firmly on my belief that ?Reimu just subjugate that Jinyou, not killing? However, if it is up to the other Touhou fans to decide what actually happens. I won?t intrude upon that matter as I do the translation part only.?

Problems with that:

Not all youkai have that level of regeneration.
Regeneration applies to purely physical damage, and the jinyou was exterminated with spiritual attacks which completely destroyed his body.
The narration says that Reimu "prevented [him] from becoming a youkai" (and before becoming a youkai he was dead).
In an earlier chapter, Marisa permanently killed a youkai by destroying its body (through physical damage, no less) soon after it had formed.
Reimu destroyed the jinyou's book because it could "become a door to the netherworld" - i.e. the jinyou might use it to return to life again, which would require him to be dead.

Drake · « **Reply #224 on:** March 01, 2016, 01:59:05 PM »

That is a completely and utterly wrong complaint about the current use of "extermination", as it should be obvious to anyone who pays even the slightest attention that the use of "extermination" is a word that seems overly violent for what is referring to the reality of "whatever shenanigans (or nothing at all) the youkai (or anything else) was up to was stopped". It is used both consistently in this way, and uniquely in this way. This is not just a quirk of our translation, but rather is fundamentally a part of the term 退治 in the first place. It takes on the same flavour in Japanese, where it's a gross exaggeration of reality originating from how youkai were reportedly "exterminated" more aggressively in the past due to human-youkai relations, and such practice has since settled into its modern day version in Gensokyo. Nobody should be thinking that the use of the term 退治/exterminate implies that they were eradicated.

Heck, even the head split isn't technically all that important, since yes, youkai bodies are resilient; the more important part was that violence was displayed and suggested to be significant in the first place. Plus it's already established Reimu has silly powers and would be using a "spiritual attack" despite striking physically. Probably the most weighty factor plot-wise here was Reimu's insistence that the Jinyou's existence itself was a danger to Gensokyo, and she aimed to confront it despite them not wanting to cause any harm or do anything besides leave the Human Village and bum around by themselves. If the Jinyou was actually that much of a problem, simply defeating them and then letting them eventually reform and leave (uh exactly as they wanted) makes no sense whatsoever. Additionally, it isn't even the first occurrence of an actual youkai eradication in FS either, as it's implied Marisa destroyed the kutsutsura (somehow) before it could become a full youkai.

That commentary also ignores entirely that Japan is just as dumbstruck as everyone else on the planet and have inconsistent and muddled interpretations of the chapter. This is exactly what I expected when I said people will try to parade their own understanding of its events.

Clarste · « **Reply #225 on:** March 01, 2016, 02:08:41 PM »

Also, Reimu must really strong to split someone's head open with a purely physical attack with a wooden stick.

andykhang · « **Reply #226 on:** March 01, 2016, 02:25:01 PM »

How do you think Tenshi pulled it out of thin air then? It's thank to it ability of shapeshifting that Tenshi could hide it in her body.

Hope ♦ Metal · « **Reply #227 on:** March 01, 2016, 07:14:58 PM »

Quote from: andykhang on March 01, 2016, 02:25:01 PM

How do you think Tenshi pulled it out of thin air then? It's thank to it ability of shapeshifting that Tenshi could hide it in her body.

It's 2016 and you're still not materializing your weapons from psychic energy? ~~casual~~

Also, from which part of her body would she pull it out of?

Clarste · « **Reply #228 on:** March 01, 2016, 07:20:53 PM »

It's basically a lightsaber. I assume she keeps the hilt in her pocket.

Helepolis · « **Reply #229 on:** March 01, 2016, 07:29:08 PM »

- Please let us not type ambigious or vague topic titles. You could just write: "question about Tenshi's sword, it is strange." Right now it is too generic.
- Also, imo, this is a Misc question which belongs in the sticky. I will merge it there soon. So this is a notice.

Quote from: PK on March 01, 2016, 12:26:58 PM

Uh, i always thought that property-changing ability was something like changing the type of damage it would deal, rather than the actual shape. For example, if Tenshi fought Cirno it would deal heat/fire damage, while against a lunarian it would become something super-impure like Clownpiece.

Quote from: andykhang on March 01, 2016, 01:00:29 PM

Yeah, but it could shapeshift itself too, and couple with the above, it's not too unreasonable to think that it could change at least into other ancient form of weapon.

It doesn't shape shift. It is exactly as PK said, the sword "reads"the spirit from the opponent and "analyses" it. Then it is able to change its "spiritual attribute" to exploit the weakness of the said spirit. The sword doesn't emit flames. The ability that the sword has makes it look flexible due to the "weather like" form. It remains a sword. Wiki claims it is a golden Chinese jian when the ability is not invoked.

Quote from: Clarste on March 01, 2016, 07:20:53 PM

It's basically a lightsaber. I assume she keeps the hilt in her pocket.

Use the force, Chiko.

Starxsword · « **Reply #230 on:** March 02, 2016, 05:38:05 AM »

Quote

it can shapeshift into many other form of weapon that's suit to deal with any sort of opponent. Tell me if I'm right first, because if I'm right... why there hasn't be any art that draw Tenshi's sword into other form of weapon? (really, i can't seem to find it taking the form of the others major weapon of Ancient Chinese that Jian (sword) is apart of: Gun (staff), Qiang (spear) or Dao (sabre). Not to mention the others weapon like gun, halberd, mace, etc...)

There's a music video with Tenshi changing that sword to a microphone. So, it isn't like fanworks haven't thought of the sword transforming.

CyberAngel · « **Reply #231 on:** March 02, 2016, 07:42:18 AM »

Quote from: andykhang on March 01, 2016, 01:00:29 PM

Yeah, but it could shapeshift itself too, and couple with the above, it's not too unreasonable to think that it could change at least into other ancient form of weapon.

Uh... Yes, it IS quite unreasonable. I mean, ever thought about why it's called the SWORD of Hisou?

And don't even get started about her pulling it out of thin air before explaining where Marisa hides her broom.

Drake · « **Reply #232 on:** March 02, 2016, 07:50:48 AM »

magic tho

Chirumiru-chan · « **Reply #233 on:** March 02, 2016, 11:37:39 PM »

What was the prize Chiyuri wrote about on the flier in PoDD?

Drake · « **Reply #234 on:** March 03, 2016, 06:28:39 AM »

She made it up as a trap, and hadn't planned that far ahead, so the answer is nothing. Yumemi grants the player's wish using ~science~ in the endings.

Chirumiru-chan · « **Reply #235 on:** March 04, 2016, 12:59:43 AM »

Quote from: Drake on March 03, 2016, 06:28:39 AM

She made it up as a trap, and hadn't planned that far ahead, so the answer is nothing. Yumemi grants the player's wish using ~science~ in the endings.

It could also be read as "Those of you who visit the ruins, we will grant you a wish and make you happy"

Jana · « **Reply #236 on:** March 04, 2016, 03:33:01 AM »

That is what it was meant to be read as, Yumemi was trying to trap magic-users to take home as proof of her theories. If she loses then she uses some science to make the winning character's wish come true, as Drake said.

Fulisha of Light · « **Reply #237 on:** March 04, 2016, 05:49:27 AM »

Had a few other questions ~~and my first one wasn't answered:~~

Towards the end of PCB (stage 6), did Yuyuko vanish when the Saigyou Ayakashi attacked the heroine? And did Yuyuko become aware that her soul was the one sealing the Saigyou Ayakashi?

Can Remilia and Flandre's bites turn people into vampires?

What font does ZUN use for the Enemy Status? In other words, the boss' name that has the # of health bars below it.

Drake · « **Reply #238 on:** March 04, 2016, 08:11:02 AM »

I don't really think it's clear what happened at the end of PCB. It also isn't mentioned afterwards, but it's hard to imagine Yuyuko not knowing if that occurrence is explained to her later. It's also written right in PMiSS that her body is there sealing it, and since it exists as an in-universe document, she probably knows. I guess.

According to PMiSS, a human bitten by a vampire will turn into a zombie and evaporate under sunlight. However, we can't really verify that claim as it's the only time it's mentioned.

From which game? MoF up to DDC have the pixel font, which I assume is what you mean. Honestly since it's a pixel font you could probably just draw it out, and I suspect ZUN actually made it himself by taking another font, scaling it down then cleaning it up a bit. What do you need it for?

Clarste · « **Reply #239 on:** March 04, 2016, 08:42:38 AM »

Quote from: Drake on March 04, 2016, 08:11:02 AM

According to PMiSS, a human bitten by a vampire will turn into a zombie and evaporate under sunlight. However, we can't really verify that claim as it's the only time it's mentioned.

Remilia's profile in EoSD specifically says that she'll never be able to increase her own kind because she's too light an eater to drink enough blood to kill someone. While ZUN's not adverse to contradicting early worldbuilding, the implication is obviously that vampires come from people whose blood has been sucked dry.